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A49714 A relation of the conference between William Laud, late Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury, and Mr. Fisher the Jesuite by the command of King James, of ever-blessed memory : with an answer to such exceptions as A.C. takes against it. Laud, William, 1573-1645.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641. 1673 (1673) Wing L594; ESTC R3539 402,023 294

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to_o endure_v such_o hard_a conflict_n as_o they_o do_v and_o with_o so_o many_o various_a heretic_n to_o see_v christendom_n so_o rend_v and_o tear_v by_o some_o distemper_a counsel_n as_o that_o of_o ariminum_n the_o second_o of_o ephesus_n and_o other_o nay_o to_o see_v the_o whole_a world_n almost_o become_v arrian_n to_o the_o amazement_n of_o itself_o and_o yet_o all_o this_o time_n not_o so_o much_o as_o call_v in_o this_o necessary_a assistance_n of_o the_o pope_n and_o let_v the_o world_n know_v that_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n be_v infallible_a that_o so_o in_o his_o decision_n all_o difference_n may_v cease_v for_o either_o the_o father_n of_o the_o church_n greek_n as_o well_o as_o latin_a know_v this_o proposition_n to_o be_v true_a that_o the_o pope_n can_v err_v judicial_o in_o matter_n belong_v to_o the_o faith_n or_o they_o know_v it_o not_o if_o you_o say_v they_o know_v it_o not_o you_o charge_v they_o with_o a_o base_a and_o unworthy_a ignorance_n no_o way_n like_o 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limit_v the_o whole_a christian_a church_n to_o africa_n only_o so_o may_v i_o true_o say_v of_o the_o romanist_n confine_v all_o christianity_n to_o the_o roman_a doctrine_n govern_v by_o the_o pope_n infallibility_n i_o very_o persuade_v myself_o that_o even_o the_o jesuit_n themselves_o laugh_v at_o this_o and_o yet_o unless_o they_o say_v this_o which_o they_o can_v but_o blush_v while_o they_o say_v they_o have_v nothing_o at_o all_o to_o say_v but_o what_o be_v this_o to_o we_o we_o envy_v no_o man_n if_o the_o pope_n decision_n be_v infallible_a legant_fw-la let_v they_o read_v it_o to_o we_o out_o of_o the_o holy_a scripture_n and_o we_o will_v believe_v it_o num._n 9_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n take_v this_o with_o you_o that_o most_o certain_a it_o be_v that_o the_o pope_n have_v no_o infallibility_n to_o attend_v his_o cathedral_n judgement_n in_o thing_n belong_v to_o the_o faith_n for_o
will_v fain_o through_o master_n 3_o roger_n side_n wound_v the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o if_o she_o be_v unsettle_a in_o the_o article_n of_o christ_n descent_n into_o hell_n pag._n 21._o and_o he_o endeavour_v the_o same_o in_o this_o pag._n 46._o in_o the_o first_o he_o be_v very_o earnest_a to_o prove_v that_o the_o schism_n be_v make_v by_o the_o protestant_n 4_o pag._n 23._o and_o he_o be_v as_o earnest_a for_o it_o in_o this_o pag._n 55._o in_o the_o first_o he_o lay_v it_o for_o a_o ground_n that_o corruption_n of_o manner_n 5_o be_v no_o just_a cause_n of_o separation_n from_o faith_n or_o church_n pag._n 24._o and_o the_o same_o ground_n he_o lay_v in_o this_o pag._n 55._o in_o the_o first_o he_o will_v 6_o have_v it_o that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n give_v continual_a and_o infallible_a assistance_n to_o the_o church_n pag._n 24._o and_o just_o so_o will_v he_o have_v it_o in_o this_o pag._n 53._o in_o the_o first_o he_o make_v much_o ado_n about_o the_o err_v of_o 7_o the_o greek_a church_n pag._n 28._o and_o as_o much_o make_v he_o in_o this_o pag._n 8_o 44._o in_o the_o first_o he_o make_v a_o great_a noise_n about_o the_o place_n in_o st._n augustine_n ferendus_fw-la est_fw-la disputator_fw-la errans_fw-la etc._n etc._n pag._n 18._o and_o 24._o and_o so_o do_v he_o here_o also_o pag._n 45._o in_o the_o first_o he_o will_v make_v his_o proselyte_n believe_v that_o he_o and_o his_o cause_n have_v mighty_a advantage_n 9_o by_o that_o sentence_n of_o s._n bernard_n it_o be_v intolerable_a pride_n and_o that_o of_o s._n augustine_n it_o be_v insolent_a madness_n to_o oppose_v the_o doctrine_n or_o practice_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n pag._n 25._o and_o twice_o 10_o he_o be_v at_o the_o same_o art_n in_o this_o pag._n 56._o and_o 73._o in_o the_o first_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o 141._o calvin_n confess_v that_o in_o the_o reformation_n there_o be_v a_o departure_n from_o the_o whole_a world_n pag._n 25._o and_o though_o i_o conceive_v calvine_n 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i._n and_o then_o agian_n the_o very_a same_o in_o this_o if_o not_o with_o some_o more_o disadvantage_n to_o himself_o page_n 70._o and_o perhaps_o have_v i_o leisure_n to_o search_v after_o they_o more_o point_n than_o these_o now_o the_o reason_n which_o move_v i_o to_o set_v down_o these_o particular_n thus_o distinct_o be_v two_o the_o one_o that_o whereas_o the_o c._n jesuit_n affirm_v that_o in_o a_o second_o conference_n all_o the_o speech_n be_v about_o particular_a matter_n and_o little_a or_o nothing_o about_o the_o main_a and_o great_a general_a point_n of_o a_o continual_a infallible_a visible_a church_n in_o which_o that_o lady_n require_v satisfaction_n and_o that_o therefore_o this_o three_o conference_n be_v hold_v it_o may_v hereby_o appear_v that_o the_o most_o material_a both_o point_n and_o proof_n be_v upon_o the_o matter_n the_o very_a same_o in_o all_o the_o three_o conference_n though_o little_o be_v relate_v of_o the_o second_o conference_n by_o a._n c._n as_o 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that_o be_v the_o roman_n b._n §_o 38_o num._n 1_o so_o it_o seem_v i_o be_v confident_a for_o the_o faith_n profess_v in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n else_o i_o will_v not_o have_v take_v the_o salvation_n of_o another_o upon_o my_o soul._n and_o sure_o i_o have_v reason_n of_o this_o my_o confidence_n for_o to_o believe_v the_o scripture_n and_o the_o creed_n to_o believe_v these_o in_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o ancient_a primitive_a church_n to_o receive_v the_o four_o great_a general_n counsel_n so_o much_o magnify_v by_o antiquity_n to_o believe_v all_o point_n of_o doctrine_n general_o receive_v as_o fundamental_a in_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n be_v a_o faith_n in_o which_o to_o live_v and_o die_v can_v but_o give_v salvation_n and_o therefore_o i_o go_v upon_o a_o sure_a ground_n in_o the_o adventure_n of_o my_o soul_n upon_o that_o faith_n beside_o in_o all_o the_o point_n of_o doctrine_n that_o be_v controvert_v between_o we_o i_o will_v fain_o see_v any_o one_o point_n maintain_v by_o the_o church_n of_o england_n that_o can_v be_v prove_v to_o depart_v from_o the_o foundation_n you_o have_v many_o dangerous_a error_n about_o the_o very_a foundation_n in_o that_o which_o you_o call_v the_o roman_a faith_n but_o there_o i_o leave_v you_o to_o look_v to_o your_o own_o soul_n and_o they_o who_o you_o seduce_v yet_o this_o be_v true_a too_o that_o there_o be_v but_o one_o save_v faith_n but_o then_o every_o thing_n which_o you_o call_v de_fw-fr fide_fw-la of_o the_o faith_n because_o some_o council_n or_o other_o have_v define_v it_o be_v not_o such_o a_o breach_n from_o that_o one_o save_a faith_n as_o that_o he_o which_o express_o believe_v it_o not_o nay_o as_o that_o he_o which_o believe_v the_o contrary_a be_v exclude_v from_o salvation_n so_o his_o 5._o disobedience_n therewhile_o offer_v no_o violence_n to_o the_o peace_n of_o the_o church_n nor_o the_o charity_n which_o ought_v to_o be_v among_o christian_n and_o esset_fw-la bellarmine_n be_v 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ever_o be_v prove_v we_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n have_v do_v num._n 2_o but_o here_o a._n c._n bestir_v himself_o find_v that_o he_o be_v come_v upon_o the_o point_n which_o be_v indeed_o most_o considerable_a and_o first_o he_o 68_o answer_v that_o it_o be_v protestant_n not_o sufficient_a to_o beget_v a_o confidence_n in_o this_o case_n to_o say_v we_o believe_v the_o scripture_n and_o the_o creed_n in_o the_o same_o sense_n which_o the_o ancient_a primitive_a church_n believe_v they_o etc._n etc._n most_o true_a if_o we_o only_o say_v and_o do_v not_o believe_v and_o let_v they_o which_o believe_v not_o while_o they_o say_v they_o do_v look_v to_o it_o on_o all_o side_n for_o on_o all_o side_n i_o doubt_v not_o but_o such_o there_o be_v but_o if_o we_o do_v say_v it_o
necessary_a it_o be_v not_o that_o therefore_o or_o for_o prevention_n thereof_o there_o shall_v be_v such_o a_o certainty_n a_o infallible_a certainty_n in_o these_o thing_n for_o he_o understand_v himself_o well_o that_o say_v oportet_fw-la esse_fw-la haereses_fw-la 1_o cor._n 11._o there_o must_v 19_o there_o will_v be_v heresy_n and_o wheresoever_o that_o necessity_n lie_v it_o be_v out_o of_o doubt_n enough_o to_o prove_v that_o christ_n never_o leave_v such_o a_o infallible_a assurance_n as_o be_v able_a to_o prevent_v they_o or_o such_o a_o master_v power_n in_o his_o church_n as_o be_v able_a to_o over-awe_n they_o but_o they_o come_v with_o their_o oportet_fw-la about_o they_o and_o they_o rise_v and_o spring_n in_o all_o age_n very_o strange_o but_o in_o particular_a for_o that_o which_o first_o cause_v and_o now_o continue_v the_o loss_n of_o unity_n in_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n as_o i_o make_v no_o doubt_n but_o that_o the_o pride_n of_o man_n be_v one_o cause_n so_o yet_o can_v i_o not_o think_v that_o pride_n be_v the_o adequate_a and_o sole_a cause_n thereof_o but_o in_o part_n pride_n cause_v it_o and_o pride_n on_o all_o side_n pride_n in_o some_o that_o will_v not_o at_o first_o nor_o will_v not_o since_o submit_v their_o private_a judgement_n where_o with_o good_a conscience_n they_o may_v and_o aught_o and_o pride_n in_o other_o that_o will_v not_o first_o nor_o will_v not_o yet_o mend_v manifest_a great_a and_o dangerous_a error_n which_o with_o all_o good_a conscience_n they_o ought_v to_o do_v but_o it_o be_v not_o pride_n not_o to_o submit_v to_o know_a and_o gross_a error_n and_o the_o definition_n of_o some_o counsel_n perhaps_o the_o lateran_n constance_n and_o trent_n have_v be_v great_a and_o more_o urgent_a cause_n of_o breach_n of_o unity_n than_o the_o pride_n of_o man_n have_v be_v which_o yet_o i_o shall_v never_o excuse_v where-ere_a it_o be_v num._n 25_o how_o far_o this_o one_o soulsaving_a faith_n extend_v a._n c._n tell_v i_o i_o have_v confess_v it_o not_o a_o work_n for_o my_o pen_n but_o he_o say_v it_o be_v to_o be_v 72._o learn_v from_o that_o one_o holy_a catholic_a apostolic_a always_o visible_a and_o infallible_a roman_a church_n of_o which_o the_o lady_n once_o doubt_v be_v now_o full_o satisfy_v etc._n etc._n indeed_o though_o a._n c._n set_v this_o down_o with_o some_o scorn_n which_o i_o can_v easy_o pass_v over_o it_o be_v true_a that_o thus_o 1._o i_o say_v there_o be_v a_o latitude_n in_o faith_n especial_o in_o reference_n to_o different_a man_n salvation_n but_o to_o set_v a_o bind_v to_o this_o and_o strict_o to_o define_v it_o just_o thus_o far_o you_o must_v believe_v in_o every_o particular_a or_o incur_v domnation_n be_v no_o work_n for_o my_o pen._n thus_o i_o say_v and_o thus_o i_o say_v still_o for_o though_o the_o foundation_n be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o in_o all_o yet_o a_o 8._o latitude_n there_o be_v and_o a_o large_a one_o too_o when_o you_o come_v to_o consider_v not_o the_o foundation_n common_a to_o all_o but_o thing_n necessary_a to_o many_o particular_a man_n salvation_n for_o to_o whosoever_o god_n have_v give_v more_o of_o he_o shall_v more_o be_v require_v 3._o s._n luc._n 12._o as_o well_o in_o belief_n as_o in_o obedience_n and_o performance_n and_o the_o gift_n of_o god_n both_o ordinary_a and_o extraordinary_a to_o particular_a man_n be_v so_o various_a as_o that_o for_o my_o part_n i_o hold_v it_o impossible_a for_o the_o able_a pen_n that_o be_v to_o express_v it_o and_o in_o this_o respect_n i_o 1._o say_v it_o with_o humility_n and_o reason_n that_o to_o set_v these_o bound_n be_v no_o work_n for_o my_o pen._n nor_o will_v i_o ever_o take_v upon_o i_o to_o express_v that_o tenet_n or_o opinion_n the_o denial_n of_o the_o foundation_n only_o except_v which_o may_v shut_v any_o christian_a out_o of_o heaven_n and_o a._n c._n i_o believe_v you_o know_v very_o well_o to_o what_o a_o narrow_a scantling_n some_o 37._o learned_a of_o your_o 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it_o be_v to_o be_v learn_v of_o the_o one_o holy_a catholic_a apostolic_a always_o visible_a and_o infallible_a roman_a church_n '_o title_n enough_o give_v to_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o i_o wish_v she_o deserve_v they_o all_o for_o than_o we_o shall_v have_v peace_n but_o it_o be_v far_o otherwise_o one_o she_o be_v as_o a_o particular_a church_n but_o not_o the_o one._n holy_a she_o will_v be_v count_v but_o the_o world_n may_v see_v if_o it_o will_v not_o blind_v itself_o of_o what_o value_n holiness_n be_v in_o that_o court_n and_o country_n catholic_a she_o be_v not_o in_o any_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n for_o she_o be_v not_o the_o 18._o universal_a and_o so_o not_o catholic_a in_o extent_n nor_o be_v she_o sound_v in_o doctrine_n &_o in_o thing_n w_z ch_n come_v near_o upon_o the_o foundation_n too_o so_o not_o so_o catholic_a in_o belief_n nor_o be_v she_o the_o prime_a mother-church_n of_o christianity_n patriarchate_n jerusalem_n be_v that_o and_o so_o not_o catholic_a 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govern_v shall_v carry_v weight_n enough_o with_o it_o to_o depress_v imperial_a power_n low_o than_o god_n have_v make_v it_o out_o of_o doubt_n he_o can_v not_o for_o he_o 1._o well_o know_v that_o omnis_fw-la anima_fw-la every_o soul_n be_v to_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o high_a power_n rom._n 13._o and_o the_o potestatem_fw-la high_a power_n there_o mention_v be_v the_o temporal_a and_o the_o 1130._o ancient_a father_n come_v in_o with_o a_o full_a consent_n that_o omnis_fw-la anima_fw-la every_o soul_n comprehend_v there_o all_o without_o any_o exception_n all_o spiritual_a man_n even_o to_o the_o high_a bishop_n and_o in_o spiritual_a cause_n too_o so_o the_o foundation_n of_o faith_n and_o good_a manner_n be_v not_o shake_v and_o where_o they_o be_v shake_v there_o ought_v to_o be_v prayer_n and_o patience_n there_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v opposition_n by_o force_n nay_o he_o know_v well_o that_o 18._o emperor_n and_o king_n be_v custodes_fw-la utriusque_fw-la tabulae_fw-la they_o to_o who_o the_o custody_n and_o preservation_n of_o both_o table_n of_o the_o law_n for_o worship_n to_o god_n and_o duty_n to_o man_n be_v commit_v that_o a_o book_n of_o the_o law_n be_v by_o god_n own_o command_n in_o moses_n his_o time_n to_o be_v give_v the_o king_n 18._o deut._n 17._o that_o the_o king_n under_o that_o law_n but_o still_o according_a to_o it_o do_v proceed_v to_o necessary_a reformation_n in_o church-business_n and_o therein_o command_v the_o very_a priest_n themselves_o as_o appear_v in_o the_o act_n of_o 4._o hezekiah_n and_o 2._o josiah_n who_o yet_o be_v never_o censure_v to_o this_o day_n for_o usurp_a the_o high-priest_n office_n nay_o he_o know_v full_a well_o that_o the_o great_a emperor_n for_o the_o church_n honour_n theodosius_n the_o elder_a and_o justinian_n and_o charles_n the_o great_a and_o divers_a other_o do_v not_o only_o meddle_v now_o and_o then_o but_o do_v enact_v law_n to_o the_o great_a settlement_n and_o increase_n of_o 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