began to reform thousands of the people of God in these nations had no reason to suppose themselves to belong to one particular Church rather then another They lived in one parish heard in another removed up and down for their advantage and were in bondage on that account all their daies But he saies in some words following I discover my very heart I cannot but by the way tell him that it is a sufficient evidence of his unacquaintednesse with me that he thinks there is need of searching and racking my words to discover my very heart in any thing that belongs though in never so remote a distance to the worship of God All that know me know how open and free I am in these things how ready on all occasions to declare my whole heart it is neither fear nor favour can influence me unto another frame But what are the words that make this noble discovery They are these that follow When any Society or combination of men what ever hitherto it hath been esteemed is not capable of such a reduction and revocation that is to its primitive institution I suppose I shall never provoke any wise or sober person if I professe I cannot look on such a society as a church of Christ His reply hereunto is the hinge upon which his whole discourse turneth and must therefore be considered Thus then he is not this reader at once to unchurch all the churches of England since the reformation for it is known during the raign of the prelates they were not capable of that reduction and what capacity our Churches are now in for that reduction partly by want of power and assistance from the magistrate without which some dare not set upon a reformation for fear of a praemunire partly by our divisions amongst our selves fomented by he knowes whom he cannot but see as well as we lament And hereupon he proceeds with sundry complaints of my dealing with them And now Chistian Reader what shall we say to these things A naked supposition of no strength nor weight that will not hold in any thing or case namely that a thing is not to be judged capable of that which by some externall force it is withheld from is the sole bottome of all this charge The Churches of England were capable of that reduction to their primitive institution under the prelates though in some things hindred by them from an actuall Reducement so they are now in sundry places where the work is not so much as attempted the sluggards feild is capable of being weeded the present pretended want of capacity from the non-assistance of the magistrate whilest perfect liberty for Reformation is given and the worke in its severall degrees incouraged will be found to be a sad plea for some when things come to be tryed out by the rule of the Gospell And for our divisions I confesse I begin to discover somewhat more by whom they are fomented then I did four daies agoe for the matter it selfe I desire our Reverend Author to take notice that I judg every church capable of a reduction to its primitive institution which all outward hinderances being removed and all assistances granted that are necessary for reformation according to the Gospell may be reduced into the forme and order appointed unto a particular church by Jesus Christ and where any society is not so capable let them call themselves what they please I shall advise those therein who have personally a due right to the priviledges purchased for them by Jesus Christ in the way of their administration by him appointed to take some other peaceable course to make themselves partakers of them and forgiving this advise I neither dread the anger nor Indignation of any man living in the world And so I suppose by this time the Author knowes what is become of his quod erat demonstrandum and here in room of it I desire him to accept of this return Those who in the judgment of charity were and continue members of the church catholick invisible by vertue of their union with Christ the head thereof and members of the generall visible church by their due profession of the savings truths of the gospell and subjection to Christ Jesus their King and Saviour according to them do walke in love and concord in the particular churches whereof by their own consent and choice they are members not judging and condemning other particular churches of Christ where they are not members as they are such as to their stationand priviledges being ready for all instituted communion with thē as revealed are not according to any gospell rule nor by any principles acknowledged amongst Christians to be judged or condemned as guilty of Schisme but such are all they for whom under any consideration what ever I have pleaded as to their immunity from this charge in my treatise of Schisme therefore they are not to be judged so guilty If you please you may adde Quod er at demonstratum I shall not digresse to a recharge upon this Reverend Author and those of the same profession with him as to their mistakes and miscarriages in the work of Reformation nor discusse their waies and principles wherein I am not satisfied as to their proceduce I yet hope for better things then to be necessitated to carry on the defensative of the way wherein I walk by opposing theirs It is true that he who stands upon meer defence is thought to stand upon none at all but I wait for better things from men then their hearts will yet allow them to think of I hope the Reverend Author thinks that as I have reasons wherewith I am satisfied as to my own way so I have those that are of the same weight with me against him But what ever he may surmise I have no mind to foment the divisions that are amongst us hence I willingly bear all his imputations without retortion I know in part how the case is in the world The greatest chargers have not alwaies the most of truth witnesse Papists Lutherans Prelutists Anabaptists I hope I can say in sincerity I am for peace though others make themselves ready for war But we must proceed a litle further though as to the cause by me undertaken to be managed causelessely The discourse of our Author from the place fixed on wherein he faintly indeavoured to make good the foundation of this chapter which I have allready considered consists of two parts 1. His Animadversions on some principles which I lay down as necessary to be stated aright and determined that the question about gathering churches may be clearly and satisfactorily debated Some of them he saies have been handled by others which if it be a rule of silence to him and me it might have prevented this tedious debate what ever his thoughts may be of my pamphlet I do not fear to affirm of his Treatile that I have found nothing in it from the beginning to the ending but what
an interest in this church of Jesus Christ Our Reverend Author professes that he hath but little to say to these things some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense in this particular that which he chiefely insists upon is the accommodation of that promise Matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will I build my church to the Church in this sense which he concludes to belong to the visible Church of professors now as I am not at all concerned as to the truth of what I am in confirmation of to which of these it be applyed so I am far from being alone in that application of it to the Catholick Church which I insist upon All our Divines that from hence prove the perseverance of all Individuall believers as all do that I have met withall who write on that subject are of the same mind with me Moreover the Church is built on this rock in its Individuals or I know not how it is so built The building on Christ doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth that it shall allwaies have an existence but the union of the Individualls with him in their being built on him to whom the promise is made I acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe that Christ hath had and ever shall have to the end of the world a visible number of those that professe his name and subjection to his kingdome because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing but that that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence I am not convinced And I would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer and only unto them being willing to vindicate to the Saints of God all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of As to the union of this Church and the breach of it our Reverend Author hath a little to say because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this Church he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union and so consequently a schisme in this body He seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world If he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace or falling for a season I suppose he needs not fear the losse of it whilst this world continues But it is fit wise and learned men should take the Liberty of calling things by what names they please so they will be pleasd withall not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them It is true there may be a Schisme among the members of this church but not as members of this church nor with reference to the union thereof It is granted that schisme is the breach of union but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that which if there were a breach of it were not Schisme However by the way I am bold to tell this Reverend Author that this Doctrine of his concerning schisme in the Catholick invisible Church by the failings in Grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season is a new notion which as he cannot justify to us because it is false so I wonder how he will justify it to himselfe because it is new And what hath been obtained by the Author against my principles in this chapter I cannot perceive The nature of the church in the state considered is not opposed The union asserted not disproved the breach of that union is denyed as I suppose no lesse by him then my selfe That the instances that sōe Saints as mēbers of this Church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season that the members of this Church though not as members of this Church yet on other considerations may be guilty of Schisme concern not the businesse under debate himselfe I hope is satisfied CHAP. 7. OUr progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the Catholick Church visible Who are the members of this church whereof it is constituted what is required to make them so on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church with sundry respects of the church in that sense are in my treatise discussed The union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such I declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell not everted by any of the miscarriages errors or oppositions to it that are there recounted The breach of this union I manifest to consist in apostasy from the profession of the faith and so to be no Schisme upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall pleading the immunity of the Protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union and charging it upon the Romanists in all the waies whereby it may be broken an issue is put to that discourse What course our Reverend Author takes in the examination of this chapter the severalls of it whereon the strength of the controversie dothly is now to be consideed doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called Christians in respect of their profession to be that great multitude who throughout the world professe the Doctrine of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ doth he denie the union of this church or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the Gospell of subjection to Jesus Christ according to them Doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body to be by apostasy from the profession of the Gospell Doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls Independents as such or if he should could he tolerably defend his charge Doth he prove that the breach of this union is under that formality properly Schisme nothing lesse as far as I can gather might not then the trouble of this Chapter have been spared or shall I be necessitated to defend every expression in my book though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate or else Independency must goe for a great Schisme I confesse this is somewhat an hard Law and such as I cannot proceed in obedience unto it without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then I am willing yet I do it with this ingagement that I will so looke to my selfe that he shall never have that power over me any more nor will I upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils exceptions do so again so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so as to be freed from the
daily vented amongst us unlesse it were in some declamatory expressions against their Toleration which cost no more than they are worth if shaken off by a speedy engagement against my treatise confirmed such thoughts in mee After therefore it had passed in the world for some season and had found acceptance with many learned and godly persons reports began to be raised about a designe for the refutation of it that so it should be dealt withall I heard was judged necessary at sundry conventions what particular hand it was likely the taske would fall upon judging my selfe not concerned to know I did not enquire When I was informed how the disposall of the businesse did succeed as I was not at all surprized in reference to the party in generall from which it did issue so I did relieve my selfe under my fears and loathing to be ingag'd in these contests by these ensuing considerations 1. That I was fully perswaded that what I had written was for the substance of it the truth of God and being concern'd in it only on truths account If it could be demonstrated that the sentence I had asserted was an unlawfull pretender thereunto I should be delivered from paying any further respect or service to that whereunto none at all was due 2. That in the treatise its selfe so threatned I had laid in provision against all contending about Words Expressions collaterall Assertions deductions positions all and every thing though true that might be separated from the life or substance of the notion or truth pleaded for 3. That whereas the whole weight of the little pile turned on one single hing and that visible cōspicuous capable of an ocular demonstration as to its confirmation or refutation I promised my selfe that any man who should undertake the demolishing of it would be so farre from passing that by and setting himselfe to the superstruction that subsists in its single strength and vigour that indeed finding that one thing necessary for him he would solely attempt that and therein rest This I knew was evident to any considering person that should but view the treatise that if that foundation were cast downe the whole superstructure would fall with its owne weight but if left standing an hundred thousand volumes against the rest of the treatise could not in the least prejudice the cause undertaken to be mannaged in it Men might indeed by such attempts manifest my weaknesse and want of skill in making inferences and deductions from principles of Truth wherein I am not concern'd but the truth its selfe contended for would still abide untouched 4. Having expresly waved mans day and judgement I promised my selfe security from a disturbance by urging against me the authority of any of old or late supposing that from the eviction of their severall interests I had emancipated my my selfe from all subjection to their bare judgements in this cause 5. Whereas I had confin'd my selfe to a bare defensative of some not intending to cast others from the place which in their owne apprehensions they do enjoy unlesse it was the Roman party I had some expectations that peace-loving godly men would not be troubled that an apparent immunity from a crime was without their prejudice or disadvantage manifested in behalfe of their brethren nor much paine themselves to reinforce the charge accounted for So that the bare notion of Schisme and the nature of it abstracted from the consideration of persons would come under debate Indeed I questioned whether in that friendly composure of affections which for sundry yeares hath been carrying on betweene sober and godly men of the Presbyterian and Congregationall judgement any person of reall godlinesse would interest himselfe to blow the coale of dissension and engage in new exasperations I confesse I alwaies thought the plea of Cicero for Ligarius against Tubero most unreasonable namely that if he had told as he calls it an honest and mercifull lye in his behalfe yet it was not the part of a man to refell it especially of one who was accused of the same crime but yet I must needs say a prompt readinesse to follow most questionable accusations against honest defēsatives frō good men unjustly accused by others of the same crime I did not expect I added this also in my thoughts that the facility of tendring a discourse to the purpose on the businesse under consideration was obviated by its being led out of the common rode wherin common place supplies would be of litle use to any that should undertake it not once suspecting that any man of learning and judgment would make a returne unto it out of vulgar discourses about ministers calling Church government or the like How farre these and the like considerations might be a releife unto my thoughts in my feares of further controversiall ingagements having the pressure of more business upō me than any one mā I know of my Calling in the whole nation I leave it to the judgment of them who love truth and peace But what litle confidence I ought in the present posture of the minds of men to have placed in any or all of them the discourse vnder Consideration hath instructed me That any one thing hath fallen out according to my expectations and conjectures but only its being a product of the men of the perswasion owned therin I am yet to seeke The truth is I cannot blame my Adversary viis et modis to make good the opposition he is ingaged in it concernes him and his advisers beyond their interest in the appearing skirts of this Controversy Perhaps also an adjudged necessity of indeavoring a disreputation to my person and writings was one ingredient in the undertaking If so the whole frame was to be carried on by correspondent medium's But let the principles and motives to this discourse be what they will it is now made publick there being a warmer zeale acting therin then in carrying on some other thinges expected from the same hand To what may seeme of importance in it I shall with all possible plainesse give a returne Had the Reverend Author of it thought good to have kept within the bounds by me fixed and candidly debated the notion proposed abstracting from the provocations of particular applications I should most willingly have taken paines for a further clearing and manifesting of the truth contended about But the whole discourse wherewith I have now to do is of another complexion and the designe of it of another tendency yea so mannaged sometimes that I am ready to question whether it be the product and fruite of his spirit whose name it bears for though he be an utter stranger to me yet I have received such a character of him as would raise mee to an expectation of any thing from him rather then such a discourse The Reader will be able to perceive an account of these thoughts in the ensuing view of his Treatise 1. I am without any provocation intended and I hope given reviled
I am also very remote from mannaging any opposition unto it I thinke it necessary by vertue of precept and that to be continued in a way of succession It is I say according to the mind of Christ that he who is to be ordained unto office in any Church receive imposition of hands from the Elders of that Church if there be any therein And this is to be done in a way of succession that so the Churches may be perpetuated That alone which I oppose is the denying of this successive ordination through the Authority of Antichrist Before the blessed and glorious Reformation begun â—nd carried on by Zuinglius Luther Calvin and others there were and had been two States of men in the world professing the name of Christ and the Gospell as to the outward profession thereof The one of them in glory splendor outward beauty and order calling themselves the Church the only Church in the world the Catholike Church being indeed and in truth in that state wherein they so prided themselves the mother of harlots the beast with his false Prophet The other party poore despised persecuted generally esteemed and called Hereticks Schismaticks or as occasion gave advantage for their farther reproach Waldenses Albigenses Lollards and the like As to the claime of a successive ordination down from the Apostles I made bold to affirme that I could not understand the validity of that successive ordination as successive which was derived downe unto us from and by the first partie of men in the world This Reverend Authors reply hereunto is like the rest of his discourse pag. 118. He tels me this casts dirt in the face of their Ministry as do all their good friends the Sectaries and that he hath much a doe to forbeare saying The Lord rebuke thee How he doth forbeare it having so expressed the frame of his heart towards me others will judge the searcher of all hearts knowes that I had no designe to cast dirt on him or any other godly man's ministry in England Might not another answer have been returned without this wrath This is so or it is not so in reference to the ministry of this Nation If it be not so and they plead not their successive ordination from Rome there is an end of this difference If it be so can Mr. C. hardly refraine from calling a man Sathan for speaking the truth It is well if we know of what spirit we are But let us a little farther consider his answer in that place He asketh first Why may not this be a sufficient foundation for their Ministry as well as for their Baptisme if it be so be so acknowledged whence is that great provocation that arose from my enquiry after it For my part I must tell him that I judge their Baptisme good and valid but to deale clearly with him not on that foundation I cannot believe that that Idolater murtherer man of sin had since the dayes of his open Idolatry persecution and enmity to Christ any authority more or lesse from the Lord Jesus committed to him in or over his Churches But he addes secondly That had they received their ordination from the woman flying into the wildernesse the two witnesses or Waldenses it had been all one to mee and my party for they had not their ordination from the people except some extraordinary cases but from a Presbytery according to the institution of Christ So then ordination by a Presbytery Is it seemes opposed by me and my party but I pray Sir who told you so when wherein by what meanes have I opposed it I acknowledge my selfe of no party I am sory so grave a Minister should suffer himselfe to be thus transported that every answer every reply must be a reflection and that without due observation of truth and love That-those first reformers had their Ordination from the people is acknowledged I have formerly evinced it by undeniable testimony So that the proper succession of a Ministry amongst the Churches that are their off-spring runs up no higher than that rise Now the good Lord blesse them in their Ministry and the successive ordination they enjoy to bring forth more fruit in the earth to the praise of his glorious grace But upon my disclaiming all thoughts of rejecting the ministry of all those who yet hold their ordination on the accompt of its successive derivation from Rome he cries out egregiam verò laudem and saies that yet I secretly derive their pedigree from Rome well then he doth not so why then what need these exclamations we are as to this matter wholly agreed nor shall I at present farther pursue his discourse in that place it is almost totally composed and made up of scornefull revilings reflections and such other ingredients of the whole He frequently very positively affirms without the least hesitation that I have renounced my own ordination adds hereunto that what ever else they pretend unlesse they renounce their ordination nothing will please me that I condemn all other Churches in the world as no Churches but who I pray told him these things did he enquire so far after my mind in them as without breach of charity to be able to make such positive and expresse assertions concerning them A good part of his book is taken up in the repetition of such things as these drawing inferences and conclusions from the suppositions of them and warming himselfe by them into a great contempt of my selfe and party as he calls them I am now necessitated to tell him that all these things are false and utterly in part and in whole untrue and that he is not able to prove any one of them And whether this kind of dealing becomes a minister of the Gospell a person professing Godlinesse I leave it to himselfe to judge For my owne part I must confesse that as yet I was never so dealt withall by any man of what party soever although it hath been my unhappinesse to provoke many of them I do not doubt but that he will be both troubled and ashamed when he shall review these things That whole Chapter which he entitles Independentisme is Donatisme as to his application of it unto me or any of my perswasion is of the same importance as I have sufficiently already evinced I might instance in sundry other particulars wherein he ventures without the least check or supposition to charge me with what he pleaseth that may serve the turn in hand so that it may serve to bring in he and his party are Schismaticks are Sectaries have separated from the church of God are the cause of all our evills and troubles with the like tearmes of reproach and hard censures lying in a faire subserviency to a designe of widening the difference between us and mutually exasperating the spirits of men professing the Gospell of Jesus Christ one against another nothing almost comes amisse His sticking upon by matters diverting from the maine
and down in the midst of innumerable temptations I should be found to fix on that which I know will be found my rejoicing in the day of the Lord Jesus I am necessitated to adde somewhat also to a surmise of this Reverend man in reference to my Episcopall compliances in former daies and strict observation of their canons This indeed I should not have taken notice of but that I find others besides this Author pleasing themselves with this apprehension and endeavoring an advantage against the truth I professe thereby How little some of my Adversaries are like to gaine by branding this as a crime is known and I professe I know not the Conscience that is exercised in this matter But to deliver them once for all from involving themselves in the like unchristian procedure hereafter let them now know what they might easily have known before namely that this accusation is false a plain calumny a ly As I was bred up from my infancy under the care of my father who was a non-conformist all his daies a painfull labourer in the vineyard of the Lord so ever since I came to have any distinct knowledge of the things belonging to the worship of God I have been fixed in judgment against that which I am calumniated withall which is notoriously known to all that have had any acquaintance with me what advantage this kind of proceeding is like to bring to his owne soule or the cause which he mannageth I leave to himselfe to judge Thus in generall to take a view of some particular passages in the Appendix destined to this good worke the first Section tries with much wit and Rhetorick to improve the pretended alteration of judgment to the blemishing of my Reputation affirming it to be from truth to error which as to my particular so farre as it shall appeare I am cōcern'd I am little moved with the bare affirmation of men especially if induced to it by their interest I desire him to let me know when and where I may personally wait upon him to be convinced of it in the mean time so much for that Section in the second he declares what my judgment was in that treatise about the distance between Pastors and People and of the extreams that some men on each hand run into and I now tell him that I am of the same mind still so that that note hath little availed him In the third he relates what I delivered that a man not solemnly called to the office of the Ministry by any outward call might do as to the preaching of the Gospell in a collapsed Church-state unto this he makes sundry objections that my discourse is darke not cleare and the like but remembring that his businesse was not to confute that treatise also but to prove from it my inconstancie and inconsistencie with my selfe he sayes I am changed from what I then delivered this is denied I am punctually of the same judgment still but he proves the contrary by a double argument 1. Because I have renounced my ordination 2. Because I thinke now that not only in a compleat Church-state but when no such thing can be charged that gifts and consent of the people is enough to make a man a Preacher in office both untrue and false in fact I professe I am astonished to thinke with what frame of spirit what neglect of all rules of truth and love this businesse is mannaged In the fourth Section He chargeth me to have delivered somewhat in that treatise about the personall indwelling of the Holy Ghost in believers and my words to that purpose are quoted at large What then am I changed in this also no but that is an error in the judgment of all that be orthodox but that is not the businesse in hand but the Alteration of my judgment wherfore he makes a kind of exposition upon my words in that treatise to shew that I was not then of the mind that I have now delivered my selfe to be of in my book of Schisme but I could easily answer the weakenesse of his exceptions and pretended expositions of my former assertions and evidence my consistency in judgment with my selfe in this businesse ever since but this he saith is an error which he gathered out of my book of Schisme and some body hath sent him word from Oxford that I preached the same doctrine at St. Maries I wish his informer had never more deceived him it is most true I have done so and since printed at large what then I delivered with sundry additions thereunto and if this Reverend Author shall think good to examine what I have published on that account not in the way in this treatise proceeded in which in due time will be abhorred of himself all good men but with candor and a spirit of Christian ingenuity and meeknesse I shall acknowledg my selfe obliged to him and in the mean time I desire him to be cautious of large expressions concerning all the Orthodox to oppose that opinion seeing evidences of the contrary lie at hand in great plenty and let him learne from hence how little his insulting in his book on this account is to be valued Sec. the 5. he shews that I then proved the name of priests not to be proper or to be ascribed to the ministers of the Gospell but that now as is supposed in scorne I call the ministers of their particular congregations parochiall priests untrue In the description of the Prelaticall Church I shewed what they esteemed and called parish ministers amongst them I never called the Presbyterian ministers of particular Congregations parochiall priests Love truth and peace these things ought not thus to be Sec. the 6. He labours to find some difference in the tendency of severall expressions in that treatise which is not at all to the purpose in hand nor true as will appeare to any that shall read the treatise it selfe In the 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. Sec He takes here and there a sentence out of the treatise and examins it interlacing his discourse with untrue reflections surmizes and prognostications and in particular p. the 238 239. But what doth all this availe him in reference to his designe in hand not only before but even since his exceptions to the things then delivered I am of the same mind that I was without the least alteration And in the viewing of what I had then asserted I find nothing strange to me but the sad discovery of what frame of spirit the charge proceeded from Sec. 12. doth the whole worke there I acknowledge my selfe to be of the Presbyterian judgment and not of the Independent or congregationall Had this Reverend Author thought meet to have confined his charge to this one quotation he had prevented much evill that spreads it selfe over the rest of his discourse and yet have attained the utmost of what he can hope for from the whole and hereof I have already given an account But
separation into parties in the politicall use of the word why it may not so be used in the ecclesiasticall sense I see no reason but if this be the way of begging the Question I confesse I know not what course to take to prove what I intend Such words are used sometimes in warm disputes causelessely it were well they were placed where there is some pretence for them Certainly they will not serve every turne Before I asserted the use of the word I instanced in all the places where it is used and evinced the sense of it from them if this be begging it is not that lazy trade of begging which some use but such as a man had as good professedly worke as follow How well he hath disproved this sense of the word from Scripture we have seen I am not concerned in his seeing no reason why it may not be used in the ecclesiasticall sense according to his conception my enquiry was how it was used not how it might be used in this Reverend Authors judgment And this is the substance of all that is offered to overthrow that principle which if it abide and stand he must needs confesse all his following pains to be to no purpose He sees no reason but it may be as he saies After the declaration of some such suspitions of his as we are now wonted unto and which we cannot deny him the liberty of expressing though I professe he do it unto my injurie he saies this is the way on the one hand to free all church-separation from schisme and on the other to make all particular churches more or lesse inschismaticall well the first is denyed what is offer'd for the confirmation of the second saith he what one congregation almost is there in the world where there are not differences of judgment whence ensue many troubles about the compassing of one common end and designe I doubt whether his owne be free therefore If my testimony may remove his scruple I assure him through the grace of God hitherto it hath been so and I hope it is so with multitudes of other Churches those with whome it is otherwise it will appear at last to be more or lesse blameable on the account of Schisme Omitting my farther explication of what I had proposed he passes unto p. 27. of my book and thence transcribes these words they had differences among themselves about unnecessary things on these they engaged into disputes and sidings even in the solemne assemblies probably much vaine janglings alienation of affections exasperations of spirit with a neglect of due offices of love ensued hereupon whereunto he subjoines that the Apostle charges this upon them is true but was that all were there not divisions into parties as well as in judgments we shall consider that ere long But I am sorry he hath waved this proper place of the consideration of this important assertion the truth is hic pes figâ—ndus if he remove not this position he labours in vain for the future I desire also to know what he intends by divisions into parties if he intend that some were of one party some of another in these divisions and differences it is granted there can-be no difference in judgment amongst men but they must on that account be divided into parties but if he intend thereby that they divided into severall churches assemblies or congregations any of them setting up new churches on a new account or separating from the publick assemblies of the church whereof they were and that their so doing is reproved by the Apostle under the name of Schisme then I tell him that this is that indeed whose proofe is incumbent on him Faile he herein the whole foundation of my discourse continues firme and unshaken the truth is I cannot meet with any one attempt to prove this which alone was to be proved if he intended that I should be any farther concerned in his discourse then onely to find my selfe revil'd and abused Passing over what I produce to give light and evidence unto my assertion he proceeds to the consideration of the observations and inferences I make upon it p. 29. and onward The first he insists upon is that the thing mentioned is entirely in one Church amongst the members of one particular society no mention is made of one church divided against another or separated from another To this he replies 1. that the church of Corinth was a collective church made up of many congregations and that I my selfe confesse they had solemne assemhlies not one assembly onely that I beg the Question by taking it for one single congregation But I suppose one particular congregation may have more then one solemne assembly even as many as are the times wherein they solemnly assemble 2. I supposed I had proved that it was only one congregation that used to assemble in one place that the Apostle charged this crime upon and that this Reverend Author was pleased to overlook what was produced to that purpose I am not to be blamed 3. Here is another discovery that this Reverend person never yet clearly understood the designe of my treatise nor the principles I proceed upon Doth he think it is any thing to my present businesse whither the church of Corinth were such a church as Presbyterians suppose it to be or such a one as the Independents affirme it whilst all ackowledge it to be one church be that particular church of what kind it will if the Schisme rebuked by the Apostle consisted in division in it and not in separation from it as such I have evinced all that I intended by the Observation under consideration Yet this he againe persues and tells me that there were more particular churches in and about Corinth as that at Cenchrea and that their differences were not confined to the verge of one church for there were differences abroad out of the Church and saies that at unawares I confess that they disputed from house to house and in the publick assemblies but I will assure the Reverend Author I was aware of what I said Is it possible he should suppose that by the verge of one Church I intended the meeting place and the assembly therein was it at all incumbent on me to prove that they did not manage their differences in private as well as in publick is it likely any such thing should be did I deny that they sided and made parties about their divisions and differences is it any thing to me or to any thing I affirme how where and when they managed their disputes and debated their controversies it is true there is mention of a church at Cenchrea but is there any mention that that church made any separation from the church of Corinth or that the differences mention'd were between the members of these severall churches is it any thing to my present designe though there were 20 particular congregations in Corinth supposing that on any consideration they were one Church
in my Treatise as evidence that Protestants are not guilty of the breach of this union and that where any are their crime is not Schisme but Apostacy either as to profession or conversation I leave to the judgment of all candid sober and ingenious Readers for such as love strife and debates and disputes whereof the world is full I would crave of them that if they must chuse me for their Adversary they would allow me to answer in person vivâ voce to prevent this tedious trouble of writing which for the most part is fruitlesse and needlesse Some exceptions our Author laies in against the Properties of the profession by me required as necessary to the preservation of this union as to the first of professing all necessary saving Truths of the Gospell he excepts that the Apostles were ignorant of many necessary truths of the Gospell for a season and some had never heard of the holy Ghost Act. 29. and yet they kept the union of the Catholick Church And yet our Author before he closeth this chapter will charge the breach of this union on some whose errors cannot well be apprehended to lie in the deniall of any necessary truth of the Gospell that is indispensably necessary to salvation As to his instance of the Apostles he knows it is one thing not to know clearly and distinctly for some season some truths in hypothesi and another to deny them being sufficiently and clearly revealed in thesi and for those in the Acts it is probable they were ignorant of the dispensations of the holy Ghost with his marvelous effects under the Gospell rather then of the person of the holy Ghost for even in respect of the former it is absolutely said that the holy Ghost was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified I shall not pursue his other exceptions being sorry that his judgment leads him to make them that which alone beares any aspect to the business in hand he insists on pag. 99. in these words I have intimated and partly proved that there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick Church upon other considerations namely besides the renuntiation of the profession of the Gospell As first there is a bond that obliges every member of this Church to joine together in exercising the same Ordinances of worship when then any man shall refuse to joine with others or refuse others to joine with him here is a breach of love and union among the members of the Catholick Church and in the Particular Churches as parts of the Catholick The Reader must pardon me for producing and insisting on these things seeing I do it with this profession that I can fix on nothing else so much to the purpose in hand and yet how little these are so cannot but be evident upon a sleight view to the meanest capacities For 1. he tells us there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick church on other considerations not that there may be a breach of the uniō of the Catholick Church 2. That there is a bond binding men to the exercise of Ordinances so there is binding man to all holinesse and yet he denies the vilest profane persons to break that bond or this union 3. That there may be a breach of union among the members of the Church but who knows it not that knows all members of Particular Churches are also members of this church generall Our enquiry is after the union of the Catholick-Church visible what it is how broken and what the crime or evill is whereby it is broken what obligations lie on the members of that Church as they stand under any other formall consideration what is the evill they are any of them guiltie of in not answering these obligations we were not at all enquiring nor doth it in this place concerne us so to do And in what he afterwards tells us of some proceedings contrary to the practise of the universall Church she intends I suppose all the Churches in the worldj wherein the members of the universall Church have walked or do so for the universall Church as such hath no practice as to cecelebration of ordinances if he suppose it hath let him tell us what it is and when that practice was His appeale to the primitive believers and their small number will not availe him for although they should be granted to be the then Catholick visible Church against which he knowes what exceptions may be laid from the believers amongst the Jewes such as Cornelius to whom Christ had not as yet been preached as the Messiah come and exhibited yet as such they joined not in the celebration of ordinances but as yet they were as a particular congregation yea though all the Apostles were amongst them the foundation of all the Churches that afterwards were called He concludes this chapter with an exception to my assertion that if the Catholick Church be a politicall body it must have a visible politicall head which nothing but the Pope claimes to be Of this he saies 1. There is no necessity for saith he he confesses the common wealth of the Jews was a politicall body and God who is invisible was their politicall head 2. Jesus Christ is a visible head yea sometimes more visus seen of men whilst on earth though now for a time in majesty as some great Princes do he hath withdrawn himselfe from the sight of men on earth yet is he seen of Angels and Saints in heaven A. 1. I confesse God was the King and Ruler of the Jewes but yet that they might be a visible Politicall body the invisible God appointed to them under him a visible head as the Pope blasphemously pretends to be appointed under Jesus Christ 2. Jesus Christ is in his humane nature still visible as to his Person wherein he is the head of his Church he ever was and is still invisible His present absence is not upon the account of Majesty seeing in his majesty he is still present with us and as to his bodily absence he gives other accounts then that here insinuated Now it sufficeth not to constitute a visible politicall body that the head of it in any respect may be seen unlesse as that their head he is seen Christ is visible as this Church is visible He in his lawes in his word that in its profession in its obedience But I marvell that our Reverend Author thus concluding for Christ to be the politicall head of this Church as a Church should at the same time contend for such subjects of this head as he doth p. 96. namely persons contradicting their profession of the knowledge of God by a course of wickedness manifesting principles of profaneness wherewith the beliefe of the truth they profess hath an absolute inconsistency as I expresly describe the persons whose membership in this church and relation thereby to Christ their head he pleads for Are indeed these persons any better thēMahumetans as
to church priviledges they are indeed in some places as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached but woe unto them on that account it shall be more tolerable for Mahumetans in that day of Christ then for them shall their Baptisme availe them though it were valid in its administration that is was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of Christ is it not null to thē is not their circumcision uncircūcision shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges let them if you please be so subjects to Christ as Rebells and Traitors are subject to their earthly princes they ought indeed to be so but are they so do they owne their Authority are they obedient to them do they enjoy any priviledge of Lawes or doth the Apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the Gospell brethren God forbid we should once imagine these things so to be And so much for that chapter CHAP. VIII Of Independentisme and Donatisme THe Title of our Authors book is Independency a great Schisme of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is Independentisme is Donatisme Men may give what title they please to their books and chapters though perhaps few books make good their titles I am sure this doth not as yet nisi accusasse sufficiat Attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall what this chapter will furnish us withall we shall now consider He indeed that shall weigh the title Independentisme is Donatisme then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe find that the Reverend Author saies he cannot but acknowledge that what I plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from Rome as the Catholick church to be rationall solid and judicious will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how I am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse a little patience will let him see that our Author laies more weight upon the Title then the preface of this chapter and that with all my fine trappings I am enrolled in the black booke of the Donatists but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo or as another saith debemus optare optima cogitare difficulima ferre quaecunque erunt as the case is fallen out we must deal with it as we can 1. He saith he is not satisfied that he not only denies the Church of Rome so called to be a particular Church pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no Church at all That he is not satisfied with what I affirm of that Synagogue of Sathan where he hath his throne I cannot helpe it though I am sorry for it I am not also without some trouble that I cannot understand what he means by placeing my words so as to intimate that I say not only that the church of Rome is no particular church but also that it is no church at all as though it might in his judgment or mine be any Church if it be not a particular church For I verily suppose neither he nor I judg it to be that Catholick Church whereto it pretends But yet as I have no great reason to expect that this Reverend Author should be satisfied in any thing that I affirme so I hope that it is not impossible but that without any great difficulty he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing that I do p. 113. It is of Rome in that sence wherein it claims it self to be a church that I speak in that sence he saies it is no church of Christs institution and so for my part I account it no church at all but he adds that he is far more unsatisfied that I undertake the cause of the Donatists and labour to exempt them from Schisme though I allow them guilty of other crimes But do I indeed undertake the cause of the Donatists do I plead for thē will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words then I haved one do I labour to exempt them from Schisme are these the waies of peace love and truth that the Reverend Author walks in do I not condemne all their practises and pretensions from the beginning to the end can I not speak of their cause in Reference to the Catholick Church and its union but it must be affirmed that I plead for them But yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing what he affirms me to have done The first is as he saies His singular notion of Schisme limiting it only to differences in a particular Assembly 2. His jealousy of the charge of Schisme to be objccted to himselfe and party if separating from the true Churches of Christ be truly called Schisme A. What may I expect from others when so grave and Reverend a person as this Author is reported to be shall thus deal with me Sr I have no singular notion of Schisme but embrace that which Paul hath long since declared nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered nor is that notion of Schisme at all under consideration in Reference to what I affirme of the Donatists who in truth were concerned in it the most of them to them to the utmost but the union of the Church Catholick and the breach thereof Neither am I jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of Schisme from any person living on the earth and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on Had you not been pleased to have supposed what you please without the least ground or colour or reason perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me as you have done many good men as the case now stands even of your own judgment in other things Having made this entrance he proceeds in the same way and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke this chapter of his charge of donatisme in these words This lies in full force against him and his party who have broken the union of our churches and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world not of their own constitution and that as no true churches of Christ this I say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the Invidious title of this chapter and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding I know not The day will manifest of what sort this work is Although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false namely that I and my party
that 's the phraseology this Author in his love to unity delights in have broken the union of their churches which we have no more done then they have broken the union of ours for we began our reformation with them on even tearms and were as early at work as they yet what coulour what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches and yet he repeats this again pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe I wonder not saith he that the Doctor hath unchurched Roome for he hath done as much to England and all forraign protestant churches and makes none to be members of the church but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations Now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our Reverend Author yet seeing the gospell of the blessed God requires to forgive and passe by greater injuries I shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein notwithstanding which because by his providence I am in that place and condition that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō I must declare that this is open unrighteousness wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed How little I am concernd in his following parallell of Independentisme and Donatisme wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor or in all that followes thereupon is easy for any one to judg He proceeds to scan my Answers to the Romanists as in reference to their charge of Schisme upon us and saies I do it sutable to my own principles And truly if I had not I think I had been much to blame I referre the Reader to the Answers given in my book and if he like them not notwithstanding this Authors exceptions I wish he may fix on those that please him better in them there given my conscience doth acquiesce But he comes in the next place to Arguments wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in Accusations he will have great cause to rejoyce By a double Argument as he saies he will prove that there may be Schisme besides that in a particular Church His first is this Schisme is a breach of Union but there may be a breach of union in the Catholick visible church His second this where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed wherein the union of the Catholick Church consists there may be a breach of union but there may be differences in the Catholick or among the members of the Catholick church in matter of faith professed Ergo Having thus laid down his Arguments he falls to conjecture what I will answer and how I will evade but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing then he is and was in accusing For to consider his first Argument if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme I will by the same way of arguing ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion But as to the matter of it 1. Is Schisme every breach of union or is every breach of Union schisme Schisme in the Ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute the breach of the union of a church which it hath by the institution of Christ and this not of any union of Christs institution but of one certaine kind of union for as was proved there is an union whose breach can neither in the language of the Scripture nor in reason nor common sense be called or accounted schisme nor ever was by any man in the world nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme and allowing only the generall notion of any separation good or bad in what kind soever So that secondly it is granted not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the Catholick church but also that there may be a breach of the union of the Catholick church by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists but that this breach of union is sehisme because sehisme is a breach of union is as true as that every man who hath two eyes is every thing that hath two eyes For his second it is of the same importance with the first there may be differences in the Catholick church and breaches of union among the members of it which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church as such Two professors may fall out and differ and yet I think continue both of them professors still Paul and Barnabas did so Chrysostome and Epiphanius did so Cyrill and Theodoret did so That which I denied was that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such is Schisme He proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church that do not break the union of it as such But he saies though there be Apostasy or Heresy yet there may be Schisme also but not in respect of the breach of the same union which only he was to prove Besides evill surmizes reproaches false criminations and undue suggestions I find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine we are thus come off from this part of Schisme for the relinquishment of the Catholick church which we have not done and so to do is not schisme but a sin of another nature and importance he adds that the ground I goe upon why separation from a true church he must meane the catholick church or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand is no schisme is that afore mentioned that a schisme in the Scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly But who so blind as they that will not see the ground I proceeded on evidently openly solely was taken from the nature of the Catholick church its union and the breach of that union and if obiter I once mention that notion I do it upon my confidence of its truth which I here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this Reverend Author if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose To repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter is certainly needlesse for my part in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church I had not the least respect to Presbyterians or Independents as such nor to the differences betweē them which alone our Author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto If he will fasten the guilt of Schisme on any
on the account of separation from the Catholick church let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the Gospell throughout the world under the limitations expressed that the union of it as such doth not consist in the profession of the truth and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that Church is Schismes otherwise to tell me that I am a Sectary a Schismatick to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church or the like impertinencies will never farther his discourse among men either rationall solid or judicious All that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit with many clamours and false Accusations I am glad to find him p. 120. renouncing ordination from the Authority of the church of Rome as such for I am assured that by his so doing he can claime it no waie from by or through Rome for nothing came to us from thence but what came in and by the Authority of that Church CHAP. IX WE are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this Reverend Authors undertaking namely to treate of the nature of a particular church its union and the breach of that union the description I give of such a church is this It is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in Christ and joint performance of the worship of God in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed This I professe to be a generall description of its nature waving all contests about accurate definitions which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth after some canvassing of this description our Author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church which is more then I intended it for only he adds that according to this description their churches are as true as ours which I presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in Question His ensuing discourse of the will of Christ that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation but in this or that is by me wholly assented ūto and the matter of it contended for by me as I am able what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like I am not at all for the present concerned in I purposely waved all expressions concerning it one way or other that I might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance His argument in the close of the Section for a Presbyterian church from Acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that Church and therefore it was not one single congregation I do not understand I think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of Christ unlesse there be more elders then one it there should be elders in every Church and for my part so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches I am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference as to a Presbyterian church or a single congregation And though I be reproved a new for my pains I may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work Proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church he takes notice of three things laid down by me previously to what I was farther to assert all which he grants to be true but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions The two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the Catholick invisible church and 2 of the visible Catholick church and yet not be joyned to a particular Church These as I said he ownes to be true but askes how I can reconcile this with what I said before namely that the members of the Catholick visible Church are initiated into the profession of the faith by Baptisme but where lies the difference why saith he Baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular Church whilst he will grant what yet he doth denie but will be forced to grant that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church even to the Catholick Church and may administer Baptisme out of a particular church as Phillip did to the Eunuch A. How well this Author is acquainted with my principles hath been already manifested as to his present mistake I shall not complaine seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it from an expression of mine at least as it is printed of which I shall speak afterwards for the present he may be pleased to take notice that I am so far from confining Baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation that I do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized Baptisme precedes admission into Church membership as to a particular Church the subject of it is professing believers and their seed as such they have right unto it whither they be joined to any particular church or no suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise I desire also to know who told him that I deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own Church or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word I grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the Catholick church but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto The third thing laid down by me whereunto also he assentes is that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those Churches that there he may abide in Doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer but my reasons whereby I prove this he saies he likes not so well and truly I cannot helpe it I have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me Let him be pleased to furnish me with better and I shall make use of them but yet when he shall attempt so to doe it is odds but that one or other will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine But this he saith he shall make use of and that he shall make advantage of and I know not what as if he were playing a prize upon a stage The third reason is that which he likes
hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years For the rest of those principles which he excepts against as he thinks meet I leave their consideration to that farther enquiry which the Lord assisting I have destined them unto The way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers he saies is very pretty and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case but as I can tell him of that which is neither true nor pretty in the practise of some whom he knowes or hath reason so to do so I can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme and with them who may possibly be so it is a ridiculous thing to think it an objection And for that part of my enquiry whether the Church be before ordinary officers or they before it as sleight as he is pleased to make of it it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences and the right stating of it to conduce to the composure and determination of them His charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage are not now to be further mentioned we have had them over and over indeed we have had little else If strong vehement passionate affirmations complaints charges falfe imputations and the like will amount to a demonstration in this businesse he hath demonstrated Independentisme to be a great Schisme He shuts up his discourse as he began it reciting my words by adding interposing perverting commenting enquiring he makes them speak what he pleases and compasses the ends of his delight upon them What contentment he hath received in his so doing I know not nor shall I expresse what thoughts I have of such a course of proceedure This only I shall say it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto My last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter and to gather up in our passage what may seem to respect the businesse in hand and so the whole matter will be dismissed The plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of Schisme with reference to the Episcopall Government of the Church of England and the constitution which under it it is pretended to have had he passes over though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded In that treatise The things he is pleased to take notice of as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us shall be reviewed Considering the severall senses wherein that expression the church of England may be taken I manifest in my treatise in which of them and how far we acknowledg our selves to have been and to continue members of the Church of England The first is as it comprises the elect believers in England what the unity of the Church in this sense is was before evinced our desire to be found members of this Church with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace was declared I am greived to repeat our Reverend Authors exceptions to this declaration saies he unlesse he think there are no members of this church in England but those that are of his formed particular churches I fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them And why so I pray The union of the members of the church in this sense consists in their joint union to with Christ their head by one spirit What hath the Reverend Author to charge upon me with reference thereunto Let him speak out to the utmost yea I have some reason to think that he will scarce spare where he can strike God forbid that I should think all the members of the Catholick Church in England to be comprised either jointly or severally in their Churches or ours seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division I doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us He adds that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us to make the Invisible Church visible It is confessed we do so yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect and under one formall consideration is visible as to its profession which it makes unto salvation This with all that lies in us we draw them out unto what he addes about the churches being elect and the uncomely parts of it which they may be for a season who are elect believers because it must be spoken are uselesse cavills For the scornfull rejection of what I affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts because he will one day know that the words he so despises were spoken in sincerity and with the reverence of the great God out of love to all his Saints I shall not farther vindicate them such hay and stubble must needs burn My next profession of our Relation to the Church of England in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this Nation cleaving to the Doctrine of the Gospell here preached and established by Law as the publike profession of this Nation But he tels me first 1. That many Independent Churches in this Nation are grosly apostatized from that doctrine and so are hereticall 2. That the worship was professed and protested and established as well as the doctrine and that we are all departed from it and so are schismaticall for we hold communion with them he sayes in the same doctrine but not in the same worship Answer His first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of from his large use of the word Independent which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth In the sense before declared his charge is denyed Let him prove it by instance if he be able surely God hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please without due regard to love and truth 2. As to the worship established in this nation by law he means the way of worship for the substantials of it we are all agreed in I suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme if he do I know what use some men will make of his affirmation though I know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall for his renewed charg of schisme I cannot I confesse be moved at it proceeding from him who neither doth nor will know what it is His next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in England saying could they make use of our preaching c. but the truth is when the most of us