Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n
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A41388
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Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good.
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Good, Thomas, 1609-1678.
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1674
(1674)
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Wing G1029; ESTC R23950
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83,883
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174
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is certain that aâ—prophane carless performing of Divine service is a very great sin and a necessary cause of irreligion and practical Atheism one exception I had allmost forgott which concerns Choristers who are said to be for the most part very untoward Children Firm. First This cannot be denyed but the reasons are first negligence in the Musick Masters whose chiefest care it is to teach them to Sing and the end why they Sing namely to set forth the Praises of their Creator neither are they so careful to instruct them how to behave themselves reverently and devoutly at the worship and service of God Secondly Some of them are not set to the Grammer School where upon they squander away a great part of their time in vain sports and idleness which is the Mother of all villany and wickednss Thirdly But the chiefest reason of all is that our Choristers are commonly the Children oâ— mean Parents who for the most part are very ignorant in the great matters of Religion and extreamly negligent in the concerns of their own and their Childrens Souls Now Deans and Chapters are necessitated to make choise of such poor Children because the better sort of people disdain to have their Children brought up in that noble Science of Musick which is their gross ignorance besides their scorn and contempt of this Science they misconceive that if they should send them to the Musick School it would hinder them in their Grammer learning which might easily be prevented by imploying those hours only at Musick which are spent in foolish insignificant sports and pastimes which as I am inform'd is the practise in some places beyond Sea where their youths spend much of the afternoons in Musick and Dancing Training Mathematicks and such like manly and profitable exercises which conduce both to the health of the body and benefit of the understanding Dub. I perceive that those exceptions against Deans and Chapters and Cathedral service are not so substantial as once I conceived them to be If you please we will now proceed to those which I have heard urged with much earnestness against â—et forms of Prayer and in particular against the Liturgie of the Church of England Firm. Most willingly I pray you favour me with the recital of them Dub. 'T would be to much trouble and to little purpose to mention all that I have heard seing many of them are very frivolous and not worthy of a serious answer those that seem to be the most material are First that they are imposed by mans Authority Secondly they stint the Spirit Thirdly they are cold and dead forms our Spirits are not affected and quickned by them as by conceived and extemporary Prayers Firm. First whatsoever is imposed upon us by mans Authority contrary to the word of God is utterly unlawfull but set Forms taken out of â—ods word are not contrary to that word especially when not only the very matter of them is contained in Holy Scripture but the very words and phrase 'T is a strange peice of nonsence that what is in it self lawfull and laudable should cease to be so because 't is commanded by our Superiors True indeed that things in themselves lawfull being in their own nature but indifferent if commanded as necessary and intrinsically holy are upon that account unlawfull and repugnant to Christian liberty but more of this when we shall diâ—course about Ceremonies Secondly That the Spirit is stinted by a set Form and that Reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit To this I reply That if their were any truth in these exceptions how comes it to pass that â—e have so many set Forms of Prayer and thanksgiving in Holy Scripture How do set formâ— of Prayer more stint the Spirit then set Forms of Psalms for Singing Yea does a set Form of Prayer more stint the Spirit then the extemporary conceptions of the Minister limit and stint the Spirit of the Congregation to whom they are upon this account in the nature of set Forms When these queries shall be rationally answered I shall through away all set Forms which have been used by the â—hristian Churches for above 1400 years Besides those of the Presbyterian perswasion allow'd them as lawfull in their conferences with the Bishops anon after his Majesties restauration As to the other part of the other exception that reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit this to those who understand the true meaning of that Phrase is a most frivilous cavill for setting aside the extraordnary gift of prayer to pray in or by the Spirit denotes first the making of our prayers according to the mind of the Spirit exprest in the Scripture as may appear Col. 3.16 Secondly to pray by the Spirit is to pray by that principle of grace wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and enabling us to every good duty as well as to prayer Thirdly to pray by the Spirit is when the Spirit do's stir up our hearts to this Holy duty working in us good desires and motions quickning our faith and fervency whereby our hearts minds spirits go along with out Tongues and Words utterd either in a set Form or by our extemporary expressions which is usually practized by knowing Christians in their Closset devotions Dub. I confess I am not able to shew why set Forms of Prayer should stint the Spirit more then set forms of Singing and I am perswaded that praying by the Spirit signifies no more then the assistance of the holy Spirit quickning and stirring us up to and in Prayer whereby our hearts and spirits are fixed in that holy duty joyning and going along with the Tongue and Voice but truly I find by experience that my Spirit is more stirred up by a Prayer that is new which I never heard before being lively deliver'd then by a common Form read out of a Book Firm. This is the chiefest reason â—hich renders men such admirers of extemporary Prayers and so opposite to set forms their own experience tels them that they are more taken with such Prayers then with common Forms read out of a Book whiâ—h phanciful experience no wise man will plead against reason and judgment it being very deceitful and the issue of a very common corruption and humane infirmity which inclines us to be more taken with what is new then with what we have often heard especially when 't is deliver'd in a lively tone with pleasing actions and gesticulations of the Body and without Book though for substance and soundness what is read be infinitely before it Pray Sir answer me but this one question whether are your affections more stir'd up at the reading of some portion of Scripture by the Minister or at a good Sermon delivered from the Pulpit Dub. I confess I am much more affected my affections are more wrought upon by a good Sermon deliver'd with life and action then at the reading of the best Chapter
men are apt to express toward the one and their cold disposition toward the other partly because 't is usual to let those things pass carelesly by our ears which we have often heard before or know we may haer again when ever we please and partly for that Sermons are new and fresh and if they slip by us for the present what excellencies soever they contain is lost which creats the grater atteâ—â—ion which causes the greater affections so far that worthy man This certainly is one great reason why set Forms of Prayer are so much undervalued in respect of extemporary and conceiv'd effusions Dub. I am abundantly satisfied that set Forms of Prayer are not only lawfull but very usefull in the Publike Service of the Church I shall now by your good leave descend to those exceptions which are made more particularly against the Liturgie of the Church of England First that 't is taken out of the Masse Book Secondly that it contains many shreds of Prayer which are short and customary wishes rather then serious and devout Prayers Thirdly that it appoints divers Apocryphal Chapters to be publikly read which contain things incredible and ridiculous As for those exceptions which are made against some particular passages in the body of the Liturgy they are so frivolous that they are not worth the trouble of a serious confutation he that pleases may see them sufficiently baffled by Mr Hooker Mr Ball himself a Nonconformist in his tryal of the grounds of Seperation with many others Firm. Your First excepâ—ion is the issue of Spite and Ignorance what though it contains many things that are in the Masse Book as the Creeds the Teâ— Commandments the Lords-Prayer and divers Collects Shall a true man refuse to take his goods and make the best he can of them because he finds them in a Theifs house Or shall the husbandman refuse pure wheat because 't was once mingl'd with chaff and tares albeit 't is now winnoâ—ed and sâ—fted Or shall we refuse Pauls Epistles because there are in them certain savory passages taken out of the writings of Idolatrous Heathens The Church of Rome was once a glorious Church true 't is it s now sadly corrupted yet as corrupt as 't is all is not chaff which that Church retains there remainâ— in her some good wheat which was in her before her novel superstitions were in their Swadling cloaths this wheat wee retain the châ—ff we hâ—ve blown away with a Fan of an orderly Reformation you see what a malicious cavil this is that our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Mâ—ss malice in some and ignorance in others have been the true parents of this groundless calumny 2. As to your Second exception that our Liturgie contains many short cuts and shreads of prayer pray you what do you think of the Publicans Prayer God be mercifull to me a sinner is any prayer in our Liturgie more short then that which our Saviour so well aproved Short ejacuculations concise forms Holy breathings of the Spirit are very frequent in the Scripture and past all peradventure very acceptable to Almighty God those that cavil at the shortness of our prayers and collects let them justify the length of theirs if they can from any one prayer in Scripture or Fathers that is a quater of an hower long Let any rational man who is acquainted with the nature of Prayer and humane infirmities seriously consider â—hether or no our Church has not carried her self very prudently both in the Method Phrase Form and ordering of her Service Are not all her holy Offices the matter and mostly the very words and choiâ—eâ—t portions of holy Scriptures what an unworthy calumny is it to tell the world our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Masse Could any thing be utter'd more fals and invidious those excellent Prayers She uses how are they â—itted to our infirmities mixed with Psalms Hymns and choise portions of Scripture is not this order and method more sutable to the weak capacities and unsteady attentions of the greatest part of the Congregation then a long extemporary Prayer for matter many times Heretical Schismatical Irreverent strangly bold unbeseeming a poor sinful Worme to offer up to the High and Dreadful Majesty of our Great and Good God Dub. I know by my own experience thâ—t long extemporary Prayers are very apt to dull â—nd deâ—den our attentions and I cannot deny but that sometimes I have been very much scandalized both at the matter as also at the un-Scriptural â—hantastical Affected expressions used in such Prayers which is not to be seen in the Common-Prayer Book whose phrase and words are very gravâ— and decent and being taken out of the word of â—od are most fit to be offer'd up to the Almighty God when we speak unto him in Prayer I am fully satisfied with the excellent Method Matter grave Oratory of the English Liturgie being 't is so consonant to and coresponding with the Holy Scripture So that I stand amaz'd at the impudence of those that first gave out that 't was borrowed from the Mass Book and at the dull ignorance of those that will believe so notoâ—ious a Lye The Book I acknowledge to be rarely compos'd and not onely useful in our publick Worship but also a very profitable directory for our Family private devotions Now to the last objection Were it not better that some Apochryphal Chapters were left out of the calender and Canonical Lessons set in their place Firm. Many learned men have indeed thought so and have wished for a change in this particular Mr Hooker has these words Those Ecclesiastical Books for so they were cald in auntient times not Apocryphal under which title were contain'd such Books which the Church allowed not at all to be read in publick I say those Ecclesiastical Books which in case my self did think as some do that 't were more safe and better that they were not to be read at all publikly nevertheless as in other things of like nature so in this I should be loath to oppose my private judgment against the force of their Reverend Authority considering the excellency of some things in all and of all things in certain of those Ecclesiastical Books which we publikly read and therefore I have thought it better to let them stand as a list or a marginal border unto the Old Testament and to grant at the least unto some of them publike audience in the house of God Dub. I do fully acquiess in the pious prudent and peaceable determination of this worthy man and so from the exceptions that are made against the liturgy I desire your discourse may proceed to those which are made against the Ceremonies of the Church 't is superfluous to name them all But only those which are most spoken against the Surplice the Ring in Marriage Bowing at the name of Jesus Kneeling at the Sacrament and especially the Cross in Baptisme which are said to be Popish and superstitions