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power_n church_n ordain_v ordination_n 3,255 5 10.2967 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A01042 Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 1627 (1627) STC 11147; ESTC S102413 101,942 162

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the_o wyse_n 11._o be_v like_o goad_n and_o like_o nail_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v give_v by_o one_o pastor_n be_v they_o not_o i_o pray_v you_o the_o ordinary_a churchman_n who_o the_o lord_n rebuke_v for_o burden_v conscience_n with_o tradition_n even_o of_o father_n and_o be_v not_o those_o tradition_n whereof_o augustine_n so_o much_o lament_v the_o imposition_n the_o tradition_n of_o the_o church_n do_v not_o the_o same_o father_n affirm_v that_o ne_fw-la catholicis_fw-la episcopis_fw-la ascentiendum_fw-la sicubi_fw-la ●…_n falluntur_fw-la ut_fw-la contra_fw-la canonic_a as_o scripturas_fw-la aliquid_fw-la sentiant_fw-la that_o be_v we_o ought_v not_o consent_v no_o not_o with_o catholic_a bishop_n if_o they_o hold_v a●…e_a opinion_n contrary_a to_o the_o canonicke_n scripture_n for_o as_o cyprian_n 〈◊〉_d say_v consuetudo_fw-la sine_fw-la veritate_fw-la vetustas_fw-la est_fw-la erroris_fw-la custom_n without_o truth_n be_v but_o antiquity_n of_o error_n and_o the_o say_v of_o 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or_o herald_n hear_v the_o king_n and_o who_o despyse_v they_o despyse_v the_o king_n have_v either_o ambassador_n or_o herald_n an●…_n libe●…tle_a hereupon_a to_o exceed_v the_o bound_n of_o then_o commission_n and_o warrande_n or_o have_v not_o the_o party_n who_o otherway_n be_v hold_v to_o hear_v either_o of_o th●…m_n yet_o place_n le●…t_v they_o without_o any_o diminution_n of_o the_o sovereign_a majesty_n and_o royal_a authority_n both_o to_o ask_v for_o and_o to_o examine_v their_o warrande_n we_o have_v but_o one_o lord_n and_o one_o lawgiver_n and_o so_o only_o do_v the_o contempt_n of_o our_o voice_n touch_v he_o if_o our_o voice_n be_v the_o echo_n of_o his_o voice_n and_o we_o speak_v not_o out_o of_o our_o own_o imagination_n otherway_n the_o many_o sad_a and_o serious_a warning_n give_v we_o to_o try_v spirit_n be_v vain_a then_o turn_v speech_n to_o philomathes_n eriphilus_n heat_n for_o your_o church_n philomathes_n have_v almost_a hale_v i_o quite_o from_o our_o question_n you_o object_v that_o all_o sect_n pretend_v scripture_n i_o answer_v that_o all_o pretend_v not_o scripture_n only_o for_o that_o your_o church_n join_v and_o aequal_v with_o scripture_n her_o own_o devyse_n now_o to_o divert_v here_o far_o to_o the_o question_n of_o the_o church_n power_n in_o this_o point_n and_o whether_o she_o may_v err_v or_o not_o it_o be_v to_o slide_v away_o from_o our_o present_a point_n and_o i_o have_v dispute_v that_o matter_n at_o length_n in_o my_o defence_n of_o our_o calling_n i_o give_v the_o case_n then_o that_o your_o church_n and_o all_o other_o acclaym_v the_o title_n do_v pretend_v scripture_n only_o yet_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o pretend_v scripture_n and_o another_o to_o have_v scripture_n true_o for_o they_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o rehearse_v the_o common_a creed_n and_o another_o thing_n to_o hold_v the_o point_n thereof_o yea_o and_o one_o thing_n to_o hold_v they_o false_o and_o but_o in_o show_n and_o another_o to_o 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unto_o they_o and_o their_o example_n be_v registrate_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n for_o a_o permanent_a instruction_n in_o such_o case_n to_o all_o succeed_a age_n and_o it_o be_v even_o monstrous_a to_o consider_v how_o far_o your_o guide_n have_v bring_v their_o follower_n not_o only_o to_o neglect_v but_o even_o to_o contemn_v yea_o and_o condemn_v in_o like_fw-mi man_n the_o reading_z of_o holy_a scripture_n so_o as_o i_o can_v not_o tell_v whether_o with_o great_a horror_n i_o have_v often_o hear_v their_o disdainful_a speech_n against_o scripture_n or_o with_o dolour_n and_o compassion_n i_o have_v perceive_v how_o some_o of_o they_o presume_v much_o of_o knowledge_n and_o otherway_n proud_o pert_a to_o prattle_v in_o controversy_n of_o religion_n and_o to_o talk_v at_o table_n of_o some_o cun_v and_o dismember_a testimony_n of_o the_o father_n yet_o in_o the_o sacred_a bible_n be_v as_o great_a stranger_n as_o in_o the_o alcoran_n philomathes_n if_o any_o man_n either_o speak_v 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true_a sense_n that_o we_o must_v seek_v some_o other_o rule_n and_o what_o can_v that_o be_v else_o but_o that_o leave_v all_o other_o interpretation_n we_o hold_v that_o which_o the_o catholic_a church_n avouch_v eubulus_n do_v you_o not_o perceive_v philomathes_n how_o x._o against_o all_o logic_n law_n you_o reduce_v our_o disputation_n to_o a_o circle_n and_o so_o not_o only_o you_o take_v that_o for_o a_o grant_v ground_n which_o be_v the_o very_a point_n in_o question_n but_o also_o fall_v sensible_o in_o that_o same_o imputation_n which_o you_o will_v appear_v so_o much_o to_o shun_v we_o be_v dispute_v which_o be_v the_o true_a church_n and_o have_v evince_v that_o the_o only_a sure_a way_n to_o know_v she_o be_v by_o scripture_n so_o as_o of_o necessity_n first_o scripture_n must_v lead_v we_o to_o know_v among_o common_a acclaymer_n which_o be_v she_o before_o we_o can_v resolve_v to_o follow_v her_o interpretation_n i_o hearty_o yield_v that_o her_o interpretation_n be_v take_v but_o in_o such_o dispute_n who_o she_o be_v we_o
jump_v set_v in_o his_o matter_n as_o he_o who_o seek_v his_o drown_a wife_n up_o the_o water_n eriphilus_n your_o sonnet_n philadelphus_n be_v very_o sarcasticke_a but_o where-by_a if_o our_o man_n question_n be_v not_o better_o answer_v than_o by_o such_o cut_a check_n the_o scorn_n in_o end_n will_v turn_v to_o be_v your_o own_o eubulus_n do_v you_o well_o eriphilus_n to_o be_v angry_a be_v only_o xiii_o your_o man_n privilege_v to_o be_v a_o poet_n and_o be_v he_o so_o haeres_fw-la ex_fw-la ass_n universal_a heir_n to_o all_o the_o muse_n as_o that_o we_o have_v no_o part_n nor_o portion_n in_o they_o et_fw-la nos_fw-la quoque_fw-la la●…rum_fw-la momordimus_fw-la but_o let_v we_o see_v which_o of_o we_o shall_v fall_v to_o pack_v up_o the_o scorn_n and_o have_v already_o clear_v what_o be_v the_o only_a sure_a note_n of_o the_o church_n let_v we_o now_o more_o nearlie_o tread_v your_o man_n trace_n in_o these_o his_o metricke_a mark_n and_o try_v what_o weight_n they_o carry_v first_o philomathes_n read_v the_o inscription_n of_o his_o section_n for_o up-taking_a his_o whole_a drift_n then_o will_v we_o god_n will_v examine_v each_o of_o they_o severallie_o and_o short_o philomathes_n these_o be_v the_o capital_a word_n of_o all_o his_o section_n 1._o catholic_a 2._o continuance_n 3._o visible_a 4._o unity_n 5._o holy_a 6._o heretic_n eubulus_n his_o whole_a rhyme_n as_o i_o remember_v ●…unneth_v on_o fourteen_o two_o main_a point_n the_o one_o to_o prove_v that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n the_o other_o to_o show_v that_o our_o church_n be_v heretical_a the_o first_o he_o will_v conclude_v thus_o to_o whatsoev_a company_n the_o note_n of_o catholic_a or_o universality_n continuance_n visibilitie_n unity_n and_o holiness_n do_v proper_o conveane_v that_o be_v the_o only_a true_a church_n of_o christ_n but_o to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n all_o these_o do_v proper_o conveane_v therefore_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v the_o only_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n eriphilus_n if_o you_o can_v clear_o loose_v i_o that_o k●…ot_n eubulus_n you_o may_v perhaps_o induce_v i_o to_o take_v more_o of_o your_o counsel_n but_o i_o suspect_v you_o be_v once_o snare_v for_o of_o the_o proposition_n none_o can_v make_v question_n the_o assumption_n will_v bear_v out_o itself_o and_o so_o i_o hope_v the_o conclusion_n shall_v stand_v steadfast_a eubulus_n and_o if_o i_o shall_v clear_v the_o proposition_n to_o be_v so_o xv._n vain_a and_o sophistical_a as_o though_o the_o propounder_n be_v here_o present_a to_o plead_v for_o it_o yet_o i_o will_v god_n willing_a breed_v he_o such_o business_n to_o mayntayn_v it_o as_o shall_v run_v he_o quite_o out_o of_o all_o his_o rhyme_a humour_n and_o if_o i_o show_v his_o assumption_n also_o to_o be_v evidentlie_o false_a what_o will_v you_o make_v eriphilus_n of_o your_o man_n miserable_a conclusion_n the_o vanity_n &_o sophistical_a deceit_n of_o his_o proposition_n i_o will_v best_o discover_v as_o i_o shall_v answer_v to_o each_o of_o these_o his_o mark_n severallie_o according_a as_o he_o bring_v they_o in_o order_n so_o by_o a_o induction_n to_o strengthen_v his_o false_a assumption_n and_o yet_o even_o thus_o i_o fear_v eriphilus_n that_o you_o shall_v recall_v your_o liberal_a offer_n and_o be_v never_o a_o whit_n the_o more_o subject_a to_o my_o counsel_n but_o wisdom_n will_v be_v justify_v of_o she_o own_o child_n philomathes_n read_v on_o philomathes_n then_o harken_v what_o he_o say_v of_o the_o first_o mark_n catholic_a chapter_n iii_o catholic_a into_o your_o bible_n i_o have_v read_v the_o church_n must_v through_o the_o world_n be_v spread_v 〈◊〉_d for_o christ_n his_o apostle_n send_v with_o power_n and_o commandment_n that_o to_o all_o nation_n they_o shall_v go_v to_o preach_v and_o to_o baptize_v also_o who_o have_v do_v this_o to_o know_v i_o wish_v for_o that_o be_v sure_a the_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o for_o exemple_n let_v m●…e_o know_v and_o if_o thou_o can_v i_o pray_v thou_o show_v what_o compànie_n do_v take_v in_o hand_n the_o first_o conversion_n of_o our_o land_n euge●…m_n and_o of_o our_o country_n everywhere_o throughout_o the_o world_n far_o and_o near_o if_o this_o be_v not_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n then_o will_v i_o be_v convert_v soon_o saynct_v paul_n in_o his_o epistle_n say_v the_o roman_n have_v the_o catholic_a faith_n say_v it_o be_v renown_v speak_v of_o and_o publish_v throughout_a the_o world_n over_o all_o catholic_a universal_a if_o you_o be_v ever_o so_o then_o to_o your_o church_n will_v i_o go_v so_o say_v the_o prophet_n malachi_n there_o shall_v be_v offer_v far_o and_o nigh_o a_o clean_a oblation_n and_o sacrifice_n from_o the_o place_n the_o sun_n do_v rise_v to_o the_o go_v down_o of_o the_o same_o and_o what_o be_v that_o i_o pray_v thou_o name_n if_o it_o be_v not_o the_o holy_a mass_n i_o will_v be_v a_o protestant_n as_o i_o be_v in_o the_o eighteen_o psalm_n i_o find_v the_o whole_a world_n shall_v hear_v their_o sound_n if_o these_o mark_v you_o do_v not_o want_v then_o present_o i_o shall_v recant_v eubulus_n for_o my_o acquytall_n in_o that_o whereof_o i_o give_v to_o ●…_n eriphilus_n some_o more_o hope_n than_o i_o think_v he_o either_o do_v conceive_v or_o will_v be_v willing_a i_o shall_v make_v good_a and_o to_o show_v the_o vain_a sophistry_n of_o the_o proposition_n of_o your_o man_n main_n argument_n so_o far_o as_o concern_v this_o his_o first_o mark_n of_o universality_n till_o i_o come_v lyke-waye_n upon_o the_o rest_n i_o say_v philomathes_n that_o universality_n can_v be_v no_o proper_a mark_n of_o the_o church_n yea_o that_o it_o can_v not_o be_v any_o mark_n at_o all_o and_o that_o therefore_o your_o man_n main_n proposition_n be_v in_o this_o point_n vain_a and_o sophistical_a eriphilus_n indeed_o sir_n b●…_n this_o your_o assertion_n you_o make_v i_o hope_v so_o little_a that_o you_o shall_v make_v your_o word_n good_a as_o i_o be_o assure_o persuade_v that_o you_o be_v worthy_a to_o be_v burn_v for_o a_o most_o detestable_a heretic_n who_o dare_v so_o peartlie_o deny_v that_o which_o i_o think_v never_o one_o of_o your_o sect_n dare_v ever_o open_o gaynesay_a to_o this_o hour_n will_v you_o draw_v i_o think_v you_o to_o follow_v your_o counsel_n in_o aught_o who_o thus_o deny_v a_o special_a article_n of_o our_o creed_n and_o be_v so_o audacious_a as_o to_o affirm_v that_o the_o church_n be_v not_o catholic_a eubulus_n i_o do_v suspect_v eriphilus_n that_o you_o will_v kindle_v at_o my_o position_n and_o therefore_o for_o a_o more_o gentle_a recept_n ii_o i_o even_o of_o purpose_n turn_v my_o talk_n to_o philomathes_n but_o i_o will_v calmlie_o cool_v your_o heat_n if_o i_o can_v i_o deny_v no_o article_n of_o the_o creed_n i_o both_o confess_v and_o believe_v the_o catholic_a church_n but_o that_o i_o may_v yet_o once_o make_v you_o more_o aghast_a in_o that_o i_o do_v believe_v it_o i_o even_o 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church_n if_o your_o doctor_n will_v or_o if_o your_o seduce_a one_o can_v understand_v this_o all_o your_o man_n vain_a objection_n of_o the_o church_n shall_v go_v in_o smoke_n but_o of_o this_o matter_n i_o have_v write_v so_o large_o in_o my_o defence_n of_o our_o calling_n and_o discovery_n of_o the_o adversarie_n dotage_n as_o i_o weary_a here_o to_o multiply_v so_o many_o word_n unto_o you_o and_o this_o which_o i_o have_v now_o more_o than_o once_o say_v sufficient_o answer_v your_o man_n next_o question_n philomathes_n the_o next_o question_n be_v who_o keep_v the_o holy_a scripture_n then_o from_o the_o hand_n of_o wicked_a man_n eubulus_n in_o this_o interrogatour_n i_o can_v not_o tell_v whether_o xxxviii_o he_o show_v himself_o more_o ignorant_a or_o impudent_a for_o first_o it_o be_v ask_v as_o if_o nothing_o have_v be_v in_o the_o body_n but_o the_o sore_a if_o besides_o the_o consume_a gangrene_n there_o be_v ever_o a_o body_n wherein_a it_o be_v and_o though_o affect_v 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trust_n in_o the_o m●…ltitude_n of_o all_o than_o in_o the_o particular_a strength_n of_o any_o one_o and_o in_o such_o common_a convocation_n it_o be_v no_o wonder_n though_o many_o be_v find_v not_o well_o appoint_v in_o their_o gear_n and_o now_o very_o i_o count_v it_o strange_a that_o man_n profess_v great_a thing_n yet_o shall_v not_o only_o bewray_v a_o shameful_a want_n both_o of_o light_n and_o sense_n in_o lay_v for_o the_o only_a rule_n of_o examine_v and_o discern_a god_n his_o truth_n what_o or_o where_o or_o what_o time_n or_o by_o what_o man_n aught_o have_v be_v maintain_v and_o most_o common_o hold_v but_o even_o not_o obscure_o tax_v the_o allmightie_a as_o leave_v his_o church_n so_o weak_o warrand_v of_o the_o way_n of_o truth_n not_o when_o nor_o where_o not_o who_o nor_o what_o a_o number_n most_o carry_v vogue_n be_v most_o to_o be_v inquyre_v satan_n seduce_v with_o the_o spirit_n of_o slumber_n soon_o wydelie_o star_n and_o multitude_n inspire_v god_n give_v up_o man_n to_o what_o their_o heart_n desire_v thus_o satan_n throne_n be_v set_v even_o in_o the_o temple_n try_v truth_n for_o error_n early_o be_v ing_z yr_v we_o live_v by_o law_n and_o not_o by_o loose_a exemple_n in_o dark_a time_n some_o true_a light_n aye_o remain_v though_o secret_o and_o but_o of_o some_o retain_v philomathes_n we_o be_v now_o come_v to_o our_o last_o point_n and_o as_o we_o account_v the_o most_o choice_n shaft_n in_o all_o our_o quyver_n our_o man_n last_o part_n of_o his_o discourse_n upon_o this_o point_n of_o haereticke_n you_o reduce_v eubulus_n unto_o this_o syllogism_n if_o thing_n affirm_v by_o you_o of_o your_o church_n can_v not_o consist_v with_o the_o promise_n of_o christ_n make_v to_o his_o church_n and_o her_o certain_a condition_n there-by_a and_o if_o you_o be_v force_v to_o acknowledge_v of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n that_o which_o be_v competent_a only_o to_o christ_n his_o church_n then_o be_v your_o church_n haereticall_a and_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v the_o church_n of_o christ_n but_o the_o first_o be_v true_a therefore_a the_o second_o also_a eubulus_n that_o be_v indeed_n the_o syllogism_n wherein_a i_o thirty-nine_o compryze_v this_o last_o part_n of_o your_o man_n be_v poetical_a discourse_n upon_o haereticke_n philomathes_n thereof_o grant_v the_o proposition_n you_o deny_v the_o assumption_n and_o have_v accord_o do_v your_o best_a to_o show_v it_o false_a in_o this_o part_n that_o any_o thing_n be_v affirm_v by_o you_o of_o your_o church_n wherewith_o the_o promise_n of_o christ_n can_v not_o consist_v the_o other_o part_n of_o the_o assumption_n seem_v yet_o to_o stand_v strong_a namely_o that_o you_o be_v force_v to_o confess_v that_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n which_o can_v not_o be_v competent_a but_o to_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o therefore_a that_o the_o conclusion_n at_o least_o for_o that_o part_n be_v true_a namely_o that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v the_o church_n of_o christ_n this_o point_n confess_v by_o you_o of_o rome_n and_o which_o can_v be_v competent_a to_o none_o other_o company_n but_o to_o christ_n his_o church_n be_v the_o lawful_a ordination_n of_o pastor_n as_o you_o yourself_o do_v before_o very_o formal_o take_v up_o in_o this_o syllogism_n to_o give_v lawful_a ordination_n to_o pastor_n be_v competent_a only_o to_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n but_o protestant_n acknowledge_v that_o ordination_n give_v by_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v lawful_a ordination_n therefore_a the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v the_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o consequent_o protestant_n be_v haereticke_n who_o have_v forsake_v her_o communion_n eubulus_n if_o i_o have_v well_o and_o clear_o overthrow_v the_o xl._o first_o part_n of_o his_o assumption_n as_o you_o confess_v philomathes_n that_o i_o have_v do_v my_o best_a to_o that_o effect_n consider_v with_o yourself_o what_o foot_n the_o other_o part_n thereof_o can_v possible_o find_v for_o to_o stand_v upon_o but_o to_o try_v this_o you_o acknowledge_v that_o i_o prove_v no_o praevaricatour_n in_o take_v up_o the_o sum_n of_o your_o man_n his_o argument_n but_o that_o uprightlie_o i_o have_v bring_v it_o forth_o in_o all_o the_o strength_n his_o word_n can_v give_v it_o philomathes_n i_o acknowledge_v it_o indeed_n and_o approve_v your_o ingenuity_n in_o such_o point_n eubulus_n then_o will_v i_o as_o clear_o unfold_v to_o you_o the_o xli_o manifold_a deceit_n thereof_o for_o first_o his_o whole_a argument_n be_v a_o beguile_a sophism_n à_fw-la communi_fw-la indiviso_fw-la as_o the_o school_n speak_v to_o be_v a_o separate_a part_n in_o the_o community_n and_o to_o clear_v this_o i_o will_v orderly_o go_v through_o the_o part_n of_o his_o syllogism_n you_o have_v to_o advert_v the_o deceit_n of_o his_o proposition_n for_o that_o lawful_a ordination_n of_o pastoure_n be_v competent_a to_o no_o company_n or_o body_n but_o to_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n it_o be_v most_o certain_a for_o the_o ordayner_n of_o pastoure_n must_v of_o necessity_n have_v outward_a lawful_a place_n and_o power_n in_o the_o visible_a church_n in_o which_o except_o they_o both_o be_v 〈◊〉_d do_v also_a obtain_v place_n and_o power_n there-in_a they_o ●…uld_v be_v no_o lawful_a ordayner_n at_o all_o now_o because_o that_o body_n in_o common_a in_o which_o all_o lawful_a ordayner_n be_v and_o must_v be_v be_v undoubtedlie_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n there-upon_o to_o insinuate_v that_o all_o or_o most_o part_n of_o ordayner_n in_o this_o body_n be_v of_o it_o and_o though_o lawful_a pastoure_n yet_o either_o true_a pastoure_n or_o christian_n it_o be_v a_o sophistical_a deceit_n à_fw-la communi_fw-la indiviso_fw-la as_o i_o have_v say_v and_o upon_o your_o man_n proposition_n thus_o right_o understand_v and_o as_o it_o can_v only_o be_v admit_v to_o be_v true_a