when you haue assumed that Ordination given by the Church of Rome was lawfull Ordination yet shall you never bee able to conclude more heere-vpon than That the Church of Rome is in the CHVRCH and common Bodie Where-by it was before visible Separation vvas made from that Contagion in but not of the Bodie by divine Commandement to the VVitnesses to Come vp hither that Ordination given by the Church of ROME was lawfull Ordination And that which a little before I aunswered to your Man's Question Were all damned aeternallie Who were not of your Companie may cleare to you the infolded Fallacie of this your Man's Proposition also For vvithin the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH are CHRIST and Antichrist TRVETH and Lies WHEAT and Chaffe PASTOVRS and Wolues the true TEMPLE and the Abhomination of Desolation standing all-so in sanctis Ecclesiae locâ—… in the holie places of the Church the Bodie and the consuming Gangrene Nowe vpon that which is proper and competent to the whole Bodie and there-fore rightlie propounded of the Bodie in common and which all-so is rightlie assumed not onlie of partes of the Bodie because of that Bodie but even of the Apostâ—…me or Gangrene because in the Bodie to conclude That the Gangrene were in the Bodie it will holde but to conclude there-of That iâ—… is of the Bodie it will not much lesse That it is the onelie and selfe Bodie Shall the Sore in the Bodie appropriate there-fore to it selfe or glorie of the naturall and liuelie Actions of the Bodie because it is in the Bodie yea and hath even over-gone the Bodie in common A man hath the Goare in his Legge which Legge all-bee-it in an hudge degree festered yet walketh and mooveth through the remnant of living and mooving power which it yet retayneth Nowe shall the Goare heere glorie that by it the Legge walketh and mooveth vvhere-as it is by it that the Legge creapeleth and halteth Lawfull Ordination is a good yea and proper Action of the Church of CHRIST not of the Goare or for the Goare which is in the Church and stayneth it but through the Lyfe and Power of the Head yet remayning in the Bodie al-be-it affected and having divers Members even corrupted with the Sore Papalitie is the Goare in the Church but not of it of which to conclude the proper Actions of the Church because it hath place there-in and there-vpon farther to conclude of it the Title of the Church and Bodie whose properlie the Actions are it is but a fraudulent Illuding Neyther because lawfull Ordination is a proper Action of the Church of CHRIST will it there-fore follow That who ever giue lawfull Ordination are of the Church how-so-ever they must bee in it For as I haue else-where evinced clearlie lawfull Ordination may bee taken from a Wolfe and Thiefe who as yet still retayneth outward Place and Power of ordayning Thus then Philomatheâ—… if your Man's Proposition bee vnderstood so as that where ever lawfull Ordination of Pastours were that Bodie considered whollie behooved to bee the Church of CHRIST I yeeld it to beâ—… true but if hee fraudfullie would insinuate That all with-in that Bodie who gaue Ordination were the Church or of the Church of CHRIST then is his Proposition deceitfullie false and hee concludeth nothing Now let vs see his Assumption But the Protestants acknowledge That Ordination given by the Church of Rome was Lawfull Ordination This Assumption as it may bee vnderstood in anâ—…e of two diverse Senses so I must accordinglie answere it For first if by the name of the Church of Rome bee vnderstood the common Bodie of the visible Church al-be-it at that tyme affected so farre even in common with that Antichristian Sore as by Fraude and tyrannicall Vsurpation the Name or Number of the Beast sitting there-in were imposed al-be-it numbers there-in never received his character I grant his assumption 〈◊〉 bee true but where-on hee shall conclude nothing eyther agaynst vs or for the Church of Rome as wee oppugne her For wee never pleaded agaynst the Bodie neyther haue wee ever separated our selues from the Bodie as your Men would fayne bynde vpon vs but wee pleade agaynst Papalitie in the Bodie and haue separated our selues from the Sore and such deadlie contagious parts as are infectiue and incurable offering still the purging Medicine of GOD HIS Word for the cure and Health of all affected Members who will admit Physicke and for destroying of the annoying and eating Evill praying GOD heartilie for the perfect convalescing of the whole Bodie And the Sore is still more than ridiculous to oppone for defence of it selfe the actions or properties of the Bodie where-in it is for with-in that Bodie even affected in common and bearing the name or number of the Beast were alwayes numbers of not onlie lawfull but also true Pastours to giue Ordination For a sicke Bodie is still a true and living Bodie but the Sicknesse in it is no part of it and is Enemie to the Lyfe there-of Next agayne if by the name of the Church of ROME your Poet vnderstand even the Papalitie or characterized Papistes that is the incurable parts deadlie festered with the Sore which onlie wee impugne then al-be-it not absolutelie yet in some respect wee grant the Ordination even so given to haue beene lawfull namelie so long as they retayned outward Place and Power of Ordination before Antichrist's full detection and separation of the revived Witnesses from the contagious Companie Because al-be-it the Ordayners were Wolues and Thieues yet they were not in common knowne to bee so but retayned still with all in common the reputation if not of true yet of lawfull Pastours In which case the receiving of Ordination from them was nothing praejudiciall to the sincere Receiver of the same who had not as yet espyed them to be Traytors And this Lawfulnesse was not because it was ministred by the Sore or deadlie festered parts in the Bodie but because those festered parts were still in the Bodie of the Church and in common all-so esteemed to bee of it and al-be-it dead incurable and contagious yet were not cut off outwardlie from the Bodie thus retayning still the account of Members al-be-it in effect they were none but a deadlie consuming Evill If your Poet poore Man had eyther vnderstoode or considered what I thinke I haue playnlie layde before you if hee had not beene first a verie shallowe Ignorant and vnstable PROTESTANT and now I warrand you no profound PAPIST howe could this haue so much stupified him and casten him into such a Musing that in the REFORMATION of the CHVRCH wee made no question to receiue and vse the MINISTRIE of PRIESTES ordayned by the CHVRCH which hee calleth ROMANE For as the Bodie all-bee-it affected yet was the Bodie So the Calling of the MINISTERS therein all-bee-it taynted and corrupted in common yet was a CALLING and that according vnto the state and tyme lawfull And your Poet his Muzing hath heere-in so marred his Memorie that
true Church and the Synagogue of Satan calling themselues Iewes and yet are not And who for concluding of this would bring the common notes of that hee were a doting Divine and a no lesse ridiculous Logician than hee who for discerning a man from a beast would bring the common properties of a living creature for how-so-ever the common notes of Christians good or bad of Orthodox or Heretickes of CHRIST or Antichrist will distinguish the common bodie in which all these are from Forraigners yet to discerne betwixt the true bodie and the inherent evill betwixt lawfull and adulterous worship betwixt the Bryde and the pretending Whoore both of them in though not both of the bodie there is none other sure note or marke of discretion but the Scriptures onlie When you shall see sayeth Chrysostome vngodlie Heresie which iâ—… the Armie of Antichrist standing in the holie places of the Church then let them who are in Iudea flee to the Mountainest that is they who are of Christianitie dresse them-selues to the Scriptures because from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie neyther anie other refuge for Christians willing to know the veritie of the Fayth but the divine Scriptures And in that same place Before manie wayes were shewed which was the Church of CHRIST but now no manner of way hut by the Scriptures For sayeth the same Chrysostome or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew if men looke to ought else they shall stumble and perish not vnderstanding which is the true Church and shall fall there-by in the abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holie places of the Church Wee thinke it not equitable sayth Basilius that such custome of speach as hath taken place with them should bee helde for a Law and Canon of right Doctrine for if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine wee might also imitate them heere-in Let vs stand therefore to the decision of Scripture inspyred from GOD and with whome are found heades of Doctrine consonant to the divine Oracles let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them Non oportet sayeth Ireneus quaerere apud alios veritatem cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis that is Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie as in a rich Store-house put together all thinges that belong to Trueth Non haec autilla sayeth Augustine alteri parti suspecta objiciantur sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae that is Let not such things bee objected as are suspected of eyther partie but let the common Armour the Scriptures bee taken I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse Philomathes in making so great a Question how Trueth and the true Church may bee discerned from Lies and hereticall companies bewrayeth evidentlie what vpright affection hee hath eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe or to leade others there-in Philomathes When all that you haue sayde is granted so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe which heare CHRIST His voyce but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures yet the Question remaineth vnsolved For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them And this was not obscurelie implyed in the Question in that all rehearse the common Creede so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you which will rid the Debate Eubulus To this I answere First al-be-it all pretende Scripture yet all pretende not Scripture onlie which both by Scripture and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie I haue prooved in the Case heere questioned to bee the onelie Rule for your Church of Rome joyneth and equalleth with Scripture her owne Canons and Traditions and there-by declareth evidentlie all her worship to bee vaine Hoc nimis doleo sayeth Augustine quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt minus curantur tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit that is I much lament for that manie thinges which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written are little regarded and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions as he is more grievouslie punished who neglecteth those humane Traditions than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation for those small beginnings in comparison which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie at that time not so farre as yet advanced had come to what had beene the measure of his griefe if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie Eriphilus What Eubulus will you make vs therefore to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S because wee heare the voyce of the Church Is not the voyce of the Church CHRIST'S owne voyce sayeth Hee not in Scripture Hee who heareth you heareth Mee and bee who despyseth you despyseth Mee Eubulus Too great heate Eriphilus maketh you to over-reach your selfe and so to stumble both in Logicke and in Divinitie Your Errour in Logicke is that you take that for an Argument which is the verie Poynt in Question All our Dispute is what Companie of so manie Acclaimers is the true Church of CHRIST In this Question proponed to vs by your Poët wee are come thus farre That who heare CHRIST'S voyce and His voyce onlie Wee haue layde also this ground That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce Vpon which ground I challenged your Church as adding to her owne Now here for your defence that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce and that even by Scripture you assume that you are the Church and where the Sheepe are to bee tryed by the voyce which they doe heare you will therefore justifie the voyce because you forsooth doe heare it And by such Logicke as this what may you not conclude You might with more credite tell vs in plaine Tearmes That you will not haue it put in question but that you are the Church than appeare to put that poynt in tryall and incontinent to take it for a Principle which is the verie Poynt controverted Now as this is your fault in Logicke and that exceeding chyldish so in Divinitie you misse and more dangerouslie Because the LORD affirmeth That who heareth the Church heareth Him and who despyseth them despyseth Him if Pastours vnder the pretext of this Power should presume absolutelie to impose on Consciences what they please binding Christians indifferentlie without proving to admit all it were an impudent yea an impious vsurpation For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition That Pastours speake nothing but the wordes of the Great Shepheard For the words of
the Wyse are lyke Goades and lyke Nayles c. which are given by one Pastour Were they not I pray you the ordinarie Church-men whom the LORD rebuked for burdening Consciences with Traditions even of Fathers And were not those Traditions where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition the Traditions of the Church Doeth not the same Father affirme That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant that is Wee ought not consent no not with Catholicke Bishops if they holde a◅e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures For as Cyprian sayth Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Custome without Trueth is but Antiquitie of Errour And the Saying of Ruffinus on the Creed is notable Non dicimus Credo in Ecclesiam sed Credo Ecclesiam ne eadem vis authoritas videatur Creatoris creaturae Domini Ministrorum that is Wee say not I belieue in the Church but I belieue the Church lest one and the same might appeare to bee the power and auth◅ritie of the Creator and the creature of the LORD and of His Servantes Augustine affirmeth Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum ipsa consilia reprehendere si qua in ◅e a veritate devient That it is lawfull to repr◅oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops yea and the Councels them-selues if in anie thing they decly◅e from the ◅rueth Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour or Herauld heareth the King and who despyseth them despyseth the King haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an◅ libe◅tle heere-vpon to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes Or haue not the parties who other-wayes are holdē to heare eyther of th◅m yet place le◅t them without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie and Royall Authoritie both to aske for and to examine their Warrandes Wee haue but one LORD and one Law-giver and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations Other-wayes the manie sad and serious Warninges given vs to trye spirits were vayne Then turning speach to Philomathes Eriphilus heate for your Church Philomathes hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question You objected That all Sects pretende Scripture I answered That all pretended not Scripture onlie for that your Church joyneth and aequalleth with Scripture her owne Devyses Nowe to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt and whether shee may erre or not it were to slyde away from our present poynt and I haue disputed that matter at length in my Defence of our Callinges I giue the Case then that your Church and all others acclayming the Title did pretende Scripture onelie yet it is one thing to pretende Scripture and another to haue Scripture truelie for them It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of Yea and one thing to holde them falselie and but in show and another to holde them truelie One may in worde and profession holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh and yet in effect denye it and so bee an Antichrist None can call IESVS LORD but by the Spirit of GOD sayeth the Scripture and yet the same Scripture witnesseth That not al who call Him LORD shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture they could not greatlie deceiue no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle if they had not plowed with his Heyfer And this indeede were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie if because for more effectuall deceit hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons wee should therefore fayntlie forsake them and for-g◅e that which by our LORD is left vs for our onelie Armour Rule of our Wayes and Sole Ground and Pillar of our Fayth as sayeth Ireneus so to wander and perish in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes it is exceeding strange that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples that reading of Scripture to Laike persons as they call them is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution but also dangerous for breeding Errours Thus verifying of themselues that saying of Ireneus speaking of Heretickes Cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum that is When they are argued by Scriptures they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues Al-be-it wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed for searching Scripture and examining there-by what was offered vnto them and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost for a permanent instruction in such case to all succeeding Ages And it is even monstrous to consider how farre your guydes haue brought their followers not onlie to neglect but even to contemne yea and condemne in Laike men the reading of holie Scripture So as I can not tell whether with greater horrour I haue often heard their disdainful speaches against Scripture or with dolour and compassion I haue perceived how some of them presuming much of Knowledge and other-wayes prowdlie peart to prattle in Controversies of Religion and to talke at Tables of some cunned and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers yet in the Sacred BIBLE were as great strangers as in the Alcoran Philomathes If anie man eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture or condemne the reading there-of by Laike persons I am not to make good for that for my selfe I both reverence them and esteeme the reading of them in Sobernesse and Humilitie to all sorts of men not onlie lawfull but also profitable and necessarie Neyther did that which I objected to Eubulus tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture but seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture each drawing out there-of a Sense for corroboration of their owne Opinions but that there is also a manifolde and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men where-through it is cleare howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is It would appeare that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake or despyse Scripture yet for Resolution which is the true Sense that wee must seeke some other Rule And what can that bee else but that leaving all other Interpretations wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth Eubulus Doe you not perceiue Philomathes howe agaynst all Logicke Lawes you reduce our Disputation to a Circle and so not onelie you take that for a graunted ground which is the verie poynt in question but also fall sensiblie in that same imputation which you would appeare so much to shunne Wee are disputing Which is the true Church and haue evinced That the onelie sure way to know Her is by Scripture So as of necessitie first Scripture must leade vs to know amongst common Acclaymers which is Shee before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation I heartilie yeelde that Her interpretation be taken but in such Dispute Who Shee is wee
jumpe set in his matter As hee who sought his drown'd Wyfe vp the Water Eriphilus Your Sonnets Philadelphus are verie sarcasticke but where-by if our man's Questions bee not better answered than by such cutting Checks the Scorne in ende will turne to bee your owne Eubulus Doe you well Eriphilus to bee angrie is onlie your man priviledged to bee a Poët and is hee so haeres ex asse vniversall Heyre to all the Muses as that wee haue no part nor portion in them Et nos quoque laâ—…rum momordimus But let vs see which of vs shall fall to packe vp the Scorne and having alreadie cleared what is the onelie sure Note of the Church let vs now more nearlie treade your man's traces in these his metricke Marks and try what weight they carrie First Philomathes reade the Inscriptions of his Sections for vp-taking his whole Drift Then will wee God willing examine each of them severallie and shortlie Philomathes These are the capitall wordes of all his Sections 1. Catholicke 2. Continuance 3. Visible 4. Vnitie 5. Holie 6. Heretickes Eubulus His whole Ryme as I remember â—…unneth on two maine poynts the one to prooue that the Church of Rome is the true Church of CHRIST the other to shew that our Churches are hereticall The first hee would conclude thus To what-so-ever companie the notes of Catholicke or Vniversalitie Continuance Visibilitie Vnitie and Holinesse doe properlie conveane that is the onelie true Church of CHRIST But to the Church of Rome all these doe properlie conveane Therefore the Church of Rome is the onlie true Church of CHRIST Eriphilus If you can clearlie loose mee that Kâ—…ot Eubulus you may perhaps induce mee to take more of your counsell But I suspect you are once snared for of the proposition none can make question the assumption will beare out it selfe and so I hope the Conclusion shall stand stedfast Eubulus And if I shall cleare the proposition to bee so vayne and Sophisticall as though the propounder were heere present to pleade for it yet I would GOD willing breed him such Businesse to mayntayn it as should run him quyte out of all his ryming humour And if I show his Assumption also to be evidentlie false what wil you make Eriphilus of your man's miserable Conclusion The vanitie sophisticall deceit of his Proposition I will best discover as I shall answere to each of these his Markes severallie according as hee bringeth them in order so by an Induction to strengthen his false Assumption And yet even thus I feare Eriphilus that you shall recall your liberall Offer and be never a whit the more subject to my counsell But Wisedome will bee justified of her owne Children Philomathes reade on Philomathes Then hearken what hee sayeth of the first Marke Catholicke CHAPTER III. CATHOLICKE INTO your Byble I haue read The Church must throgh the World be spred For CHRIST His Apostles sent With Power and Commandement That to all Nations they should goe To preach and to baptize also Who hath done this to know I wisht For that is sure the Church of CHRIST And for Exemple let mâ—…e know And if thou canst I pray thee show What Compà nie did take in hand The first Conversion of our Land And of our Countreyes everie-where Throughout the Worlde farre and neare If this was not the Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Saynct Paul in his Epistle sayeth The Romanes had the Catholicke Fayth Saying It was renowned Spoken of and published Through-out the Worlde over all Catholicke Universall If yours were ever so Then to your Churches will I goe So sayeth the Prophet Malachie There shall bee offered farre and nie A cleane Oblation and Sacrifice From the place the Sunne doeth ryse To the going downe of the same And what is that I pray thee name If it bee not the Holie Masse I 'll bee a Protestant as I was In the eighteenth Psalme I finde The whole Worlde should heare their sound If these Markes you doe not want Then presentlie I shall recant Eubulus For myne acquytall in that where-of I gaue to Eriphilus some more hope than I thinke hee eyther did conceiue or would bee willing I should make good and to show the vaine sophistrie of the Proposition of your man's mayne Argument so farre as concerneth this his first Marke of Vniversalitie till I come lyke-wayes vpon the rest I say Philomathes that Vniversalitie can bee no proper Marke of the Church yea that it can not bee anie Marke at all And that therefore your man's mayne Proposition is in this poynt vayne and sophisticall Eriphilus Indeede Sir bâ—… this your Assertion you make mee hope so little that you shall make your word good as I am assuredlie perswaded that you are worthie to be burned for a most detestable Hereticke who dare so peartlie deny that which I thinke never one of your Sect durst ever openlie gayne-say to this houre Will you draw mee thinke you to follow your counsell in ought who thus denyeth a speciall Article of our Creede and is so audacious as to affirme that the Church is not Catholicke Eubulus I did suspect Eriphilus that you would kindle at my Position and therefore for a more gentle Recept I even of purpose turned my talke to Philomathes But I will calmlie coole your heate if I can I deny no Article of the Creede I both confesse and belieue the Catholicke Church But that I may yet once make you more agast in that I doe belieue it I even therefore deny Catholicke or Vniversalitie to bee a proper Marke of the Church yea or anie Marke at all For Fayth is the evidence of thinges which are seene but the vniversalitie of the Church is apprehended by Fayth therefore the vniversalitie of the Church is not seene Now if it bee of things which are not seene but are believed it can not bee a marke where-by heere to discerne the true Church And because Eriphilus you sought for Syllogismes I thus reason All Marks are seene or fall vnder some Sense but Vniversalitie is not seene neyther falleth vnder anie Sense There-fore Vniversalitie can bee no Marke The Proposition of this Argument as it is moste certayne so is it confessed by your Cardinall Bellarmine in his second chapter De notis Eccles. The Assumption none will denye who haue anie Sense For all Schooles holde this for an vndoubted Principle That no Vniversall as it is Vniversall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or falleth vnder Sense because it is properlie the Object of Reason Much lesse then doeth the Object of Fayth which transcendeth both Sense and Reason fall vnder Sense And so can never be any discerning Marke betwixt Acclaymers Thus Eriphilus except you haue ought where-by to infrindge mine Argument your Man his mayne Proposition in so farre as concerneth this his Marke of Vniversalitie is both vayne and sophisticall Vayne because he bringeth that for a discerning Marke which falleth not
true Religion is not onlie buried but al-so lost Which after that perfect Sacrifice which CHRIST offered once for all offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices for Sinne Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne which they haue not received from the LORD Which superstitiouslie keepe Dayes and Tymes Which set vp Saynctes departed and erect Images to bee worshipped with Religious Adoration Who glorying of Fathers and Martyres are them-selues Persecuters and Murderers of the Sayncts That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST but is vndoubtedlie The Antichristian Synagogue But such is the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is not the true Church of CHRIST but is The Antichristian Synagogue Now as your Man 's stout Asseveration of holie Service Ceremonies Sacrifice Sacraments Dayes c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion except you try verifie them to be such by that onlie Touch-stone which in anie case you desyre never to bee touched so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts Martyres and Virgines contayned in our Kalendar and the pretended canonizing of them much lesse helpe him What they haue beene who are contayned in our Kalendar wee are not much curious to inquyre because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts but for a civill Rule where-by to calculate Tymes And I praesume that Ianus Iulius and Augustus are none of the number written in Heaven as perhaps no more are some others vvho are written in the Kalendar vvhose Names yet in civill vse may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes And I thinke verilie your Poet hath lost both the Yeare of GOD and Dominicall Letter al-so when hee is prooving Religion from the Kalendar which wee esteemed ever should bee cleared from Scripture And hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie as hee asketh when and where they lived But foolish Man it is neyther the ryme when nor the place where anie Man eyther liveth or dieth that maketh him a Christian. But that third thing in his Question which onlie for all except to multiplie Babling hee should haue asked namelie in what Fayth they lived and died And then wee answere That if they were Saynctes indeede they both lived and died in the same Fayth which wee holde and were even of our Companie which Companie is not defined by Tyme when or place where but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones in what-so-ever place and of what-so-ever tyme in one LORD one Fayth one Spirit on Baptisme c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth and Thy Word is Trueth sayeth our Saviour And giving this that all these Sayncts had beene not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome then but also that they had beene of her Companie for manie even now are in her Companie which are not of it Come out of her my People sayeth the Spirit and holding one and the same Fayth which Rome at that tyme helde yet as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you What will anie Prayse or Praerogatiue of Rome then make for Rome now which is not now of the Companie of Rome then but is the Synagogue of Satan where-as Rome of olde was of our Companie Eriphilus What Philadelphus will you make those whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized to bee of your Companie they were Canonized I tell you may Ages before Luther was borne Philadelphus Of their Canonizing Eriphilus I will not now much dispute whether it was farther eyther to their honour who were so Canonized or to theirs who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour in making Sayncts or to the reproach and disgrace of both I am certaine that whom GOD hath sanctified hee is and will bee a Saynct though the Pope and all the Conclaue had concluded the contrarie and whom GOD hath not sanctified no power in the Worlde can make holie I say that in this your glorying of Canonizing Saynctes you haue as valide an Argument for the Church of Rome as the building of the Prophets Tombes and garnishing of their Sepulchres was for the Iewes whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets and them-selues crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie And our Fayth Eriphilus was not borne with Luther no more than your Heresie was borne with you but our Fayth is the same Fayth where-by all Faythfull in all Ages and Places ever lived as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion which even in the Apostolicke tymes Satan was a-hatching and which having by slow degrees mounted to so monstrous an height is now agayne neare the dead-trach to the Devil 's great displeasure Philomathes If EUBULUS and I shall giue over to you PHILADELPHUS and to ERIPHILUS the reasoning of this Matter I feare wee must provyde vs some-where of long Weapons to goe betwixt you so Satyricke are you and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe than I am able and if Eriphilus take my Counsell hee shall beholde you all-so to pleade your part And it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne as it pleaseth you to call them which haue marred Eriphilus Mirth as Eubulus sad Syllogismes vvhereby hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes as how-so-ever at first rejecting my Sonnets hee summoned vs to Syllogismes yet I perceiue him now so surfeyted with them that in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion I will yet vouchsafe him one Sonnet to swadge it where-in hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued Continuance is but a common Case Things Visible are often-times vnviewed What 's Unitie if it bee not in Grace Hypocrisie some-tyme â—…surpes the place Of Holynesse if true Light bee not Leader Who Flesh for Spirit who Shades for Sooth embrace The more devote more doting they 'r and deader Would'st thou stand stay'd ' gaynst all both Doubts Dangers Follow CHRIST'S Voyce and flee the voyce of Strangers Philomathes I knowe not howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde but verilie you haue made your worde good in this That in all your Sonnet there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence as you haue compryzed in a short Summe the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse agaynst our Man's Markes But nowe both the Day and the Way are shortening and wee haue yet one Poynt to passe thorowe namelie of HAERETICKES You haue beene so difficill Eubulus to graunt vs the Title of the true Church and haue so farre set at naught all our Notes as I would gladlie heare how you will cleare your owne Churches from this imputation of HAERESIE which our Man heere at great length layeth agaynst you Eubulus If hee could haue prooved his power in anie thing hee would chiefelie haue imployed it for the credite of his owne Church and Cause Where-in if hee had prevayled hee should with one and the same travell haue
CHVRCH If your Doctours would or if your seduced ones could vnderstand this all your Mens vayne Objections of the Church should goe in Smoake But of this matter I haue written so largelie in my Defence of our Callinges and Discoverie of the Adversarie's Dotage as I wearie heere to multiplie so manie words vnto you And this which I haue now more than once sayd sufficientlie answereth your Man's next Question Philomathes The next Question is Who kept the holie Scriptures then From the hands of wicked men Eubulus In this Interrogatour I can not tell whether hee showeth him-selfe more ignorant or impudent for first it is asked as if nothing had beene in the Bodie but the Sore If besydes the consuming Gangrene there was ever a Bodie where-in it was and though affected therewith in common yet having Members some lightlie affected some whollie free of that Evill how shamelesse is your Man in this his question Next what if the keeping of Scripture had beene even by the contagious Companie Is this eyther impossible or a new thing to the LORD And hath it not fore-going Examples of the lyke marvelous dispensation to the high commendation of His Wisdome and Providence but where-in the Keepers haue nothing to glorie of Did not the Iewes who neyther pleased GOD were Enemies to all Men who crucified the LORD of Glorie and rejected Salvation and on whom the wrath of GOD was come to the out-most yet by His wyse disponing Providence keepe so carefullie the Canon of holie Scripture as there-fore they obtayne the name of Christianorum Librarii The Libraries of Christians Made not GOD the holie Vessels of the Temple to bee carefullie kept even in Babylon till the tyme of Restitution And what wonder then if in mysticall Babylon the Vessels and Instruments of the true Sanctuarie were long both kept and captived And may not the Conformitie of Case so jumplie aunswering make vs to advert in a deepe Heavenlie Wisedome howe those former thinges were also in GOD HIS Purpose Stampeâ—… of thinges to come Was not the Arke of GOD kept carefullie amongst the Philistimes Of what Moode hath your Man beene Philomathes when hee mooved so ridiculous a Question Philadelphus Why should you so much marvell heereat Eubulus You did tell vs before That their Poët in this his Armie of Interrogatoures did more trust in the Mâ—…ltitude of all than in the particular Strength of anie one And in such common Convocations it is no wonder though manie bee founde not well appoynted in their Geare And nowe verilie I count it straunge that Men professing great thinges yet should not onelie bewray a shamefull Want both of Light and Sense in laying for the onelie Rules of Examining and discerning GOD HIS Trueth What or vvhere or vvhat tyme or by what Men ought hath beene mayntayned and moste commonlie holden But even not obscurelie taxe the ALL-MIGHTIE as leaving His Church so weaklie warranded of the Way of Trueth Not when nor where not who nor what a number Moste carried Vogue is moste to bee inquyred Satan seducing with the Spirit of Slumber Soone wydelie Starres and multitudes inspyred GOD gaue vp Men to what their Hearts desyred Thus Satan's Throne was set ev'n in the Temple Trye Trueth for Errour earlie was ing yred Wee liue by Lawes and not by loose Exemple In darkest tymes some true light aye remayned Though secretlie and but of some retayned Philomathes Wee are nowe come to our last poynt and as wee account the moste choyse Shaft in all our Quyver Our Man's last part of his Discourse vpon this poynt of HAERETICKES you reduced Eubulus vnto this Syllogisme If thinges affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His CHVRCH and her certayne Condition there-by and if you are forced to acknowledge of the Church of Rome that which is competent onlie to CHRIST His Church then are your Churches Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST But the first is true There-fore the second all-so Eubulus That was in-deede the Syllogisme where-in I compryzed this last part of your Man 's poeticall Discourse vpon HAERETICKES Philomathes There-of graunting the Proposition you denyed the Assumption and haue accordinglie done your best to show it false in this part that anie thing is affirmed by you of your Churches where-with the Promise of CHRIST can not consist The other part of the Assumption seemeth yet to stand strong namelie that you are forced to confesse that of the Church of Rome which can not bee competent but to the Church of CHRIST and there-fore that the Conclusion at least for that part is true namelie That The Church of ROME is the Church of CHRIST This poynt confessed by you of Rome and which can bee competent to none other Companie but to CHRIST His Church is the lawfull Ordination of Pastours as you your selfe did before verie formallie take vp in this Syllogisme To giue lawfull Ordination to Pastours is competent onlie to the Church of CHRIST But Protestants acknowledge That Ordination given by the Church of Rome was lawfull Ordination There-fore the Church of Rome was the Church of CHRIST And consequentlie Protestantes are Haeretickes who haue forsaken her communion Eubulus If I haue well and clearlie over-throwne the first parte of his Assumption as you confesse Philomathes that I haue done my best to that effect consider vvith your selfe vvhat Feete the other parte there-of can possiblie finde for to stand vpon But to try this You acknowledged That I prooved no Praevaricatour in taking vp the summe of your Man his Argument but that vprightlie I haue brought it foorth in all the strength his wordes can giue it Philomathes I acknowledge it in-deede and approoue your Ingenuitie in such poyntes Eubulus Then will I as clearlie vnfolde to you the manyfolde Deceit there-of For first his whole Argument is a beguiling Sophisme à communi indiviso as the Schooles speake to bee a separate parte in the Communitie And to cleare this I will orderlie goe thorowe the partes of his Syllogisme You haue to advert the deceit of his Proposition For that lawfull Ordination of Pastoures is competent to no Companie or Bodie but to the Church of CHRIST it is moste certayne For the Ordayners of Pastoures must of necessitie haue outward lawfull Place and power in the visible CHVRCH in which except they both were 〈◊〉 did all-so obtayne Place and Power there-in they â—…uld bee no lawfull Ordayners at all Nowe because that Bodie in common in which all lawfull Ordayners are and must bee is vndoubtedlie the Church of CHRIST there-vpon to insinuate that all or moste parte of Ordayners in this Bodie are of it and though lawfull Pastoures yet eyther true Pastoures or Christians it is a Sophisticall Deceit à communi indiviso as I haue sayde And vpon your Man's Proposition thus rightlie vnderstood and as it can onlie bee admitted to bee true