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power_n church_n ordain_v ordination_n 3,255 5 10.2967 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A00637 A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ. Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name. 1584 (1584) STC 10770; ESTC S101936 77,534 204

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new_a and_o therefore_o see_v god_n have_v once_o establish_v this_o law_n for_o the_o church-ministery_a they_o must_v not_o repeal_v it_o but_o by_o the_o same_o authority_n unless_o they_o will_v make_v with_o y_fw-fr ●_o manichees_n one_o just_a god_n for_o the_o law_n and_o a_o other_o merciful_a for_o the_o gospel_n so_o that_o unless_o it_o may_v be_v show_v either_o that_o this_o law_n be_v only_o a_o shadow_n for_o a_o time_n to_o come_v or_o be_v make_v for_o some_o cause_n peculiar_a for_o that_o time_n and_o those_o person_n which_o they_o can_v not_o do_v because_o of_o the_o perpetual_a equitye_n before_o assign_v it_o follow_v that_o this_o must_v stand_v for_o a_o holy_a and_o endure_a constitution_n of_o god_n and_o in_o truth_n such_o answer_n undermine_v at_o once_o both_o the_o glory_n and_o perfection_n of_o god_n his_o holy_a scripture_n not_o only_o in_o our_o judgement_n but_o in_o the_o judgement_n of_o all_o writer_n holy_a and_o profane_a who_o have_v 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be_v one_o and_o not_o distinct_a to_o which_o i_o answer_v they_o may_v as_o well_o prove_v hope_n and_o charity_n to_o be_v one_o and_o not_o distinct_a because_o the_o apostle_n say_v these_o three_o remain_n faith_n hope_n and_o charity_n because_o he_o couple_v they_o with_o and._n but_o if_o these_o man_n have_v not_o learned_a either_o that_o and_o though_o sometime_o it_o rather_o repeat_v or_o interprete_v then_o couple_v diverse_a thing_n yet_o that_o most_o proper_o and_o common_o it_o do_v not_o so_o or_o that_o it_o be_v a_o elegancy_n with_o the_o grecian_n in_o such_o long_a distribution_n to_o join_v the_o two_o last_o member_n especial_o if_o they_o be_v of_o great_a kinder_v and_o familiarity_n than_o the_o rest_n to_o join_v they_o with_o a_o copulative_a conjunction_n in_o the_o end_n if_o i_o say_v they_o have_v not_o observe_v this_o in_o homer_n and_o other_o let_v they_o learn_v it_o of_o paul_n galath_n 3._o where_o be_v about_o to_o show_v that_o in_o christ_n there_o be_v no_o difference_n of_o the_o 28._o outward_a distinction_n of_o kind_n in_o this_o life_n he_o make_v a_o distinction_n or_o number_v up_o of_o the_o diverse_a sort_n and_o join_v the_o two_o last_v most_o like_a in_o nature_n and_o kindred_n yet_o not_o one_o and_o the_o same_o together_o say_v there_o be_v neither_o jew_n nor_o grecian_a there_o be_v neither_o bond_n nor_o free_a there_o be_v neither_o male_a and_o female_a have_v answer_v this_o objection_n i_o proceed_v to_o other_o argument_n 1_o whatsoever_o be_v set_v as_o church-officer_n in_o the_o church_n by_o god_n with_o a_o distinct_a and_o proper_a ordinary_a gift_n that_o be_v such_o as_o we_o have_v above_o describe_v 2_o but_o god_n have_v set_v in_o the_o church_n doctor_n and_o give_v they_o their_o peculiar_a work_n and_o gift_n the_o worde_n or_o utteraunce_n of_o knowledge_n distinguish_v from_o the_o pastor_n work_n and_o gift_n the_o word_n or_o utteraunce_n of_o wisdom_n in_o exhortation_n 3_o 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proper_o yet_o it_o be_v no_o reason_n to_o shut_v out_o those_o who_o be_v so_o call_v last_o see_v they_o can_v show_v no_o place_n where_o it_o be_v so_o take_v but_o always_o be_v general_a of_o all_o minister_n of_o the_o word_n as_o the_o apostle_n call_v himself_o a_o teacher_n of_o the_o gentile_n and_o timothy_n be_v will_v to_o teach_v as_o also_o be_v every_o bishop_n or_o else_o it_o be_v proper_a for_o the_o peculiar_a church-officer_n so_o call_v it_o be_v against_o all_o rule_n of_o interpretation_n to_o shut_v out_o the_o proper_a which_o here_o agree_v with_o the_o circumstance_n of_o the_o text_n &_o take_v a_o strange_a &_o unwonted_a signification_n as_o to_o signify_v a_o pastor_n by_o a_o doctor_n our_o last_o reason_n be_v see_v the_o prophet_n esay_n prophesy_v of_o the_o call_n of_o the_o gentile_n by_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o apostle_n do_v also_o prophesy_v that_o of_o these_o call_v to_o the_o faith_n he_o will_v take_v of_o they_o to_o be_v priest_n and_o levite_n mean_v according_a as_o the_o prophet_n use_v to_o speak_v by_o office_n and_o holy_a thing_n of_o the_o law_n to_o note_v out_o such_o office_n as_o have_v some_o similitude_n &_o proportion_n with_o those_o under_o the_o gospel_n they_o to_o be_v pastor_n who_o in_o administer_a of_o the_o sacrament_n &_o slea_v by_o exhortation_n the_o old_a man_n &_o offer_v up_o the_o new_a man_n acceptable_a to_o god_n hold_v proportion_n with_o the_o priest_n and_o to_o be_v levit_n who_o office_n concern_v y_o ●_o substantial_a point_n of_o delivery_n of_o doctrine_n be_v one_o &_o the_o same_o with_o they_o that_o it_o must_v needs_o be_v that_o according_a to_o the_o scripture_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n this_o pprophecy_n shall_v be_v fulfil_v in_o the_o office_n of_o doctor_n as_o well_o as_o of_o pastor_n and_o this_o be_v that_o which_o the_o father_n mean_v in_o their_o common_a 101._o resemble_v of_o pastor_n to_o priest_n eusebius_n declare_v this_o most_o plain_o in_o set_v down_o the_o duty_n of_o y_o ●_o doctor_n to_o catechise_v they_o &_o as_o a_o master_n his_o scholar_n by_o continual_a read_n to_o they_o or_o exercise_v to_o advance_v they_o in_o knowledge_n for_o write_v of_o y_fw-fr ●_o persecution_n of_o y_fw-es ●_o church_n under_o severus_n &_o speak_v of_o origin_n he_o say_v ●he_v exercise_n of_o teach_v or_o the_o school_n exercise_v as_o some_o where_o even_o himself_o make_v relation_n in_o writing_n &_o none_o serve_v or_o be_v set_v to_o catechise_v at_o alexandria_n but_o all_o be_v drive_v didaskaleiou_n away_o by_o the_o threaten_n of_o persecution_n some_o of_o the_o gentile_n come_v unto_o he_o to_o hear_v the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o a_o little_a after_o origin_n be_v then_o 18._o year_n old_a when_o he_o be_v over_o the_o school_n of_o catechise_v or_o instruct_v and_o nazianzen_n say_v in_o orat._n pros_n tous_fw-fr politevomenous_a the_o servant_n must_v be_v subject_a to_o their_o master_n the_o wife_n to_o their_o husband_n the_o church_n to_o the_o lord_n the_o disciple_n to_o their_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n of_o the_o elder_n and_o eldership_n have_v end_v the_o treatise_n of_o the_o doctor_n his_o office_n we_o be_v to_o proceed_v unto_o the_o elder_n and_o eldership_n with_o who_o he_o deal_v as_o profane_o as_o with_o the_o other_o his_o word_n be_v fol._n 43._o but_o why_o be_v presbyteri_fw-la such_o as_o expound_v in_o the_o church_n translate_v elder_n i_o trust_v he_o mind_v not_o hereby_o to_o shut_v out_o all_o lay-man_n from_o the_o eldership_n or_o seignory_n which_o be_v dream_v of_o lest_o peradventure_o he_o himself_o be_v exclusissimus_fw-la and_o pag._n 57_o and_o do_v our_o author_n think_v that_o this_o man_n here_o do_v mean_v their_o lie_v presbitery_n never_o hear_v nor_o read_v of_o from_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o world_n till_o within_o these_o forty_o year_n or_o little_o more_o because_o he_o name_v they_o ecclesiastical_a magistrate_n in_o which_o word_n of_o our_o author_n we_o see_v his_o chief_a reason_n against_o the_o ecclesiastical_a presbytery_n be_v that_o the_o elder_n be_v lay_v and_o the_o presbytery_n lay_v and_o therefore_o there_o have_v not_o be_v hear_v till_o within_o this_o forty_o year_n of_o they_o in_o the_o world_n to_o which_o we_o answer_v if_o you_o ●_o elder_n which_o join_v with_o the_o pastor_n &_o doctor_n be_v lay_v man_n yet_o it_o follow_v not_o that_o the_o eldership_n be_v lay_v but_o can_v his_o degree_n of_o doctor_n if_o he_o be_v so_o much_o give_v such_o credit_n unto_o his_o bare_a word_n as_o though_o all_o y_o ●_o christian_n church_n which_o by_o the_o grace_n of_o god_n do_v exercise_v this_o discipline_n shall_v be_v believe_v to_o have_v a_o presbytery_n of_o such_o as_o be_v not_o elect_v and_o ordain_v ecclesiastical_o to_o their_o office_n if_o i_o be_v not_o deceive_v herein_o his_o law_n may_v teach_v he_o if_o he_o will_v not_o learn_v it_o out_o of_o the_o scripture_n that_o whosoever_o be_v call_v with_o due_a examination_n and_o trial_n with_o the_o consent_n of_o those_o to_o who_o it_o appertain_v and_o be_v with_o fast_v and_o prayer_n or_o prayer_n only_o and_o with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n separate_v or_o put_v a_o part_n to_o that_o office_n that_o they_o be_v ecclesiastical_a person_n and_o not_o lay-man_n as_o he_o call_v they_o otherwise_o there_o be_v no_o rule_n in_o the_o scripture_n to_o discern_v between_o man_n private_a and_o between_o church-officer_n now_o if_o he_o consider_v either_o the_o order_n which_o we_o maintain_v out_o of_o the_o scripture_n or_o that_o which_o be_v practise_v in_o all_o reform_a church_n he_o shall_v find_v that_o they_o 5._o be_v due_o examine_v by_o the_o elder_n elect_v of_o the_o whole_a church_n ordain_v of_o the_o eldership_n yea_o he_o
service_n to_o evil_a king_n he_o add_v lest_o this_o long_a treatise_n shall_v seem_v altogether_o impertinent_a that_o he_o can_v not_o choose_v but_o oppose_v to_o the_o fanatical_a 197._o spirit_n and_o traitorous_a allegation_n both_o of_o these_o dangerous_a innovator_n &_o of_o the_o rebellious_a papist_n but_o alas_o why_o be_v we_o poor_a minister_n as_o he_o call_v we_o before_o who_o a_o man_n of_o mean_a estate_n will_v not_o regard_v so_o dangerous_a he_o answer_v because_o we_o will_v have_v our_o sovereigns_n kingdom_n to_o be_v hold_v at_o the_o chief_a inferior_a magistrate_n the_o people_n or_o presbytery_n devotion_n oh_o heaven_n o_o earth_n o_o lord_n our_o god_n the_o searcher_n of_o the_o secreat_n of_o all_o heart_n the_o author_n of_o the_o holy_a discipline_n we_o seek_v reveal_v we_o beseech_v thou_o our_o horrible_a treason_n bring_v upon_o we_o &_o our_o child_n for_o ever_o utter_a confusion_n in_o this_o life_n &_o in_o you_o ●_o life_n to_o come_v if_o this_o wickedness_n be_v either_o intend_a think_v upon_o or_o be_v likely_a to_o follow_v upon_o the_o discipline_n which_o we_o seek_v or_o upon_o our_o desire_n of_o the_o same_o if_o you_o o_o you_o holy_a father_n and_o minister_n of_o god_n which_o have_v writetn_v for_o defend_v maintain_v &_o with_o great_a danger_n attain_v unto_o this_o may_v not_o clear_v our_o cause_n by_o y_fw-es ●_o un_fw-it feign_a fidelitye_n which_o you_o have_v show_v to_o christian_n prince_n yet_o let_v your_o wisdom_n &_o experience_n oh_o you_o prince_n and_o magistrate_n which_o have_v receive_v it_o honour_v it_o try_v it_o bear_v witness_n unto_o the_o innocence_n of_o this_o cause_n shall_v that_o which_o have_v be_v a_o friend_n to_o magistrate_n when_o they_o be_v enemy_n to_o it_o be_v enemy_n to_o magistrate_n when_o they_o shall_v be_v friend_n unto_o it_o shall_v that_o which_o d._n whitgift_n himself_o confess_v namely_o that_o such_o senior_n 161._o be_v but_o long_o ago_o wear_v out_o of_o use_n for_o which_o he_o allege_v the_o sentence_n of_o ambrose_n before_o allege_v shall_v that_o i_o say_v call_v for_o of_o that_o holy_a man_n become_v traitorous_a &_o pernicious_a to_o the_o state_n can_v the_o office_n of_o a_o archbishop_n in_o the_o second_o place_n of_o the_o land_n do_v all_o that_o alone_o and_o more_o in_o church-matter_n then_o the_o seniors_n have_v with_o it_o civil_a power_n and_o authority_n be_v free_a from_o this_o suspicion_n and_o can_v minister_n and_o elder_n of_o base_a account_n in_o the_o world_n meddle_v only_o as_o the_o apostle_n with_o spiritual_a matter_n &_o that_o according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n be_v void_a of_o all_o surmise_n of_o such_o villainous_a practice_n can_v their_o counsel_n be_v account_v safe_a where_o none_o come_v but_o themselves_o who_o they_o will_v &_o who_o be_v devote_a to_o their_o honour_n &_o kingdom_n ecclesiastical_a and_o shall_v the_o minister_n consultation_n be_v so_o fit_a for_o such_o practice_n where_o so_o many_o elder_n as_o he_o say_v lay_v man_n of_o all_o degree_n may_v be_v present_a where_o the_o magistrate_n may_v have_v both_o their_o eye_n &_o their_o ear_n who_o decree_n in_o all_o matter_n of_o great_a weight_n of_o excommunication_n election_n abdication_n end_v of_o common_a controversy_n must_v come_v under_o the_o conscience_n of_o all_o man_n yea_o who_o whole_a act_n and_o counsel_n may_v easy_o be_v see_v by_o the_o magistrate_n who_o may_v force_v they_o to_o a_o new_a course_n if_o they_o do_v any_o thing_n prejudicial_a to_o the_o estate_n the_o good_a king_n jehoshaphat_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o the_o example_n of_o his_o father_n david_n ordain_v beside_o the_o 30._o priest_n and_o levite_n in_o all_o city_n the_o chief_a of_o family_n for_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o lord_n and_o for_o the_o matter_n of_o god_n beside_o 11._o other_o appoint_v for_o civil_a matter_n call_v the_o king_n matter_n now_o shall_v we_o think_v that_o he_o can_v not_o see_v into_o the_o matter_n of_o a_o kingdom_n and_o the_o safety_n thereof_o aswell_o as_o this_o man_n the_o prince_n of_o juda_n at_o their_o return_n when_o their_o state_n be_v subject_a unto_o so_o many_o danger_n when_o their_o prophet_n conspire_v against_o 8._o they_o yet_o uphelde_v the_o ecclesiastical_a presbytery_n to_o threaten_v excommunication_n and_o separation_n from_o god_n people_n to_o the_o obstinate_a sinner_n as_o well_o they_o then-selue_n do_v confiscation_n of_o good_n and_o civil_a punishment_n neither_o be_v they_o ever_o jealous_a over_o their_o estate_n wherefore_o see_v we_o have_v such_o a_o cloud_n of_o witness_n of_o these_o time_n and_o of_o former_a both_o under_o the_o law_n and_o under_o the_o gospel_n we_o need_v not_o fear_v but_o their_o lie_v &_o ironforhead_n in_o charge_v we_o with_o such_o traitorous_a opinion_n be_v manifest_a to_o all_o and_o shall_v turn_v upon_o their_o own_o head_n for_o manifestation_n whereof_o let_v the_o magistrate_n consider_v what_o be_v write_v of_o they_o high_o derogatory_n unto_o their_o estate_n and_o freedom_n which_o they_o make_v they_o believe_v that_o they_o maintain_v first_o they_o say_v the_o form_n and_o manner_n of_o church_n government_n may_v be_v alter_v 3●9_n by_o the_o magistrate_n then_o they_o say_v the_o external_a government_n of_o the_o church_n under_o a_o christian_a magistrate_n must_v be_v according_a to_o the_o form_n of_o government_n use_v in_o the_o commonwealth_n which_o be_v flat_a contrary_n to_o that_o that_o the_o christian_a magistrate_n may_v alter_v at_o their_o good_a pleasure_n which_o also_o drive_v the_o queen_n most_o excellent_a majesty_n either_o to_o part_v her_o crown_n with_o some_o other_o or_o else_o must_v make_v one_o archbishop_n not_o only_o of_o bishop_n but_o also_o over_o archb._n y_fw-es ●_o in_o the_o church_n there_o may_v be_v a_o monarch_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o commonwealth_n again_o when_o they_o say_v you_o ●_o archb._n be_v contain_v under_o s._n paul_n bishop_n they_o leave_v it_o not_o in_o the_o magistrate_n power_n to_o take_v away_o his_o jurisdiction_n how_o dangerous_a so_o ever_o it_o be_v to_o her_o estate_n again_o let_v they_o consider_v into_o what_o a_o low_a place_n they_o bring_v the_o magistrate_n into_o in_o the_o church_n when_o expound_v the_o place_n of_o the_o corinth_n of_o he_o they_o make_v 631._o he_o go_v after_o the_o teacher_n &_o therefore_o much_o more_o after_o the_o archbi_n have_v therefore_o note_v these_o their_o open_a contradiction_n &_o most_o absurd_a opinion_n prejudicial_a indeed_o to_o her_o majesty_n authority_n let_v we_o ere_o we_o pass_v from_o this_o general_a what_o the_o form_n of_o ecclesiastical_a government_n be_v consider_v once_o again_o of_o his_o assertion_n and_o see_v whether_o it_o bewray_v not_o manifest_a ignorance_n contain_v not_o contradiction_n &_o repugnance_n in_o itself_o and_o be_v not_o high_o derogatory_n to_o christ_n &_o his_o scripture_n his_o word_n be_v these_o pag._n 192._o now_o as_o concern_v the_o inward_a government_n of_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n by_o his_o spirit_n god_n work_v in_o his_o child_n by_o the_o minister_n of_o his_o write_v reveal_v word_n &_o also_o touch_v the_o essential_a point_n of_o the_o outward_a policy_n &_o government_n of_o the_o church_n consist_v in_o the_o true_a teach_n of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n in_o the_o due_a administration_n of_o sacrament_n according_a to_o christ_n holy_a institution_n in_o the_o advancement_n &_o further_a of_o virtue_n with_o the_o beat_n down_o of_o sin_n and_o impiety_n and_o in_o keek_v the_o church_n in_o a_o quiet_a unity_n and_o good_a order_n there_o be_v no_o difference_n of_o opinion_n among_o us._n and_o a_o little_a after_o we_o affirm_v that_o no_o such_o precise_a &_o exact_a form_n of_o external_a government_n of_o the_o church_n by_o discipline_n as_o they_o depaint_v it_o out_o be_v so_o much_o as_o by_o any_o example_n recommend_v unto_o we_o in_o scripture_n but_o much_o less_o command_v as_o a_o continual_a platform_n for_o ever_o to_o be_v follow_v in_o which_o assertion_n omit_v the_o nakedness_n of_o it_o arm_v with_o no_o proof_n out_o of_o the_o scripture_n or_o any_o good_a reason_n let_v we_o see_v how_o it_o show_v such_o gross_a ignorance_n as_o be_v not_o to_o be_v luck_v for_o in_o a_o man_n of_o his_o gift_n for_o it_o delear_v that_o he_o can_v not_o distinguish_v between_o the_o cause_n instrument_n and_o mean_n of_o a_o thing_n and_o the_o thing_n itself_o between_o government_n and_o the_o essential_a part_n of_o government_n and_o the_o fruit_n of_o it_o for_o government_n ecclesiastical_a that_o be_v the_o spiritual_a administration_n of_o christ_n by_o the_o order_n and_o instrument_n of_o his_o church_n which_o he_o have_v ordain_v be_v a_o different_a thing_n from_o the_o truth_n of_o