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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00637	A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1584 (1584)	STC 10770; ESTC S101936	77,534	204

Church-gouernement that is thus to be followed that which they did ordinarily vnchangeably is ordinarily vnchangeably to be done that which they did vpon circumstances when those circumstances fall out as appeareth by these places 1. cor 4. 17. Which shall put you in remēbrance of my wayes in Christ as I teach euery where in euery Church And 1. Cor. 11. 2. I praise you brethren that you remember me in all thinges hold fast the ordināces as I deliuered thē vnto you And Phi. 4. 9 Which you haue learned receiued heard seene in me those things do the God of peace be with you 2. Tim. 3. 10. But thou hast step by step attained vnto or fully known my doctrine course purpose faith long-suffering loue patience c. Tit. 1. 5. Appoint Elders as I haue set thee an order 1. Tim. 3. 17. These thinges haue I written that thou maist know how to behaue thy selfe in the howse of God Now that these were the vnch hangeable waies of the Apostles in elections is cleare by the examples which haue been touched before For in the 1. of the Actes the Apostles by Peter directing the action in the sixt by him or some other for they could not al direct speak at once what soeuer were the variable circumstaunces they kept this inuiolable that they people woulde giue their consent in the election And in the 14 chap. such circumstaunces ceasing they obserued this thing inuiolable Katapolin Church by Church Secondly If it were not ynough for a temporary charge to haue praise in the Gospell thorowe all the Churches but as the Apostle sayth such a one was also chosen by the consent of the Churches to be a fellow with him-selfe in carying the liberality of the Churches then much lesse can it be ynough in a perpetuall charge of such waight vnto the Church to depend vppon the iudgement of one or many without the consent of the Church but y e first is true 2. cor 8. 19. therefore the second Thirdly if in euerye matter of great waight and importaunce belonging to the whole body of the Church whether seuerally in one particuler congregation or ioyntly in many the consent of the people by the whole course of Church-gouernment in the obseruation of the Apostles was requyred then the same is to be kept in this action which concerneth the particuler Church and common assemblye as much as anye other Now that the peoples cōsent was so requyred is euident by this induction following So Peter yeeldeth an account to them of the circumcision of his going into the Gentiles and satisfieth them before the Church Acts. 11. 2. 18. The Church sent foorth Barnabas to Antiochia ver 22. The churches of Antiochia Actes 15. sent Paule and Barnabas to Hierusalem about the controuersie of Circumcision And when they came to Hierusalem they were receiued by the Church and of the Apostles and Elders vers 4. And after the Apostles and Elders had come togeather to looke to that matter and had discussed the same then it seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church to sende chosen men of their owne companye to Antiochia with Paule and Barnabas then they wright the decree vnto the churches after this maner The Apostles Elders and the brethren So in excommunication their consent is required 1. Cor 5. 4. 7. 12. So in absolution the Church doth forgiue y e offense ratify their loue towards him who hath offended 2. Cor. 2. 7. 8. So in calling vppon the Minister to execute his charge the Apostle woulde not him selfe but willeth the Churrh to say to Archippus Take heede to thy ministery which thou hast receiued in the Lorde that thou fulfill it Colos 4. 17. Lastly seeing in the iudgement of all interpreters according to the trueth the Apostle reckoning vp three manner of callings the first of man that is mās ordinaunce the seconde by man that is from Gods ordinaunce by the meanes of the Church the third by Jesus Christ that is immediat without the meanes of the Church doth therby signify that the two latter only belong vnto church-elections because that in the Church none must take any honor but he which is called as was Aaron it followeth necessarily that their sole-election which by their own confession is the ordinance of man to be vnlawful and that which is by the consent of the people according to the Apostles obseruation as they themselues cannot deny to be the onelye ordinary full way of calling allowed of God This point also hath such manifest witnesse of antiquitie as before all equall Judges the cause must passe on our side For Counsels these twoo following shall witnesse not onely them-selues but by their mouthes the Decrees and censures of the Church from time to time 2. Tom concil can 8. The councell of Paris Let none be ordayned againste the will of y ● citizens but to whom the election of the people and of the Clearkes with moste full consent haue requyred And before they say of this it is their decree that according to the Canons of the decrees it be obserued Orleans Canon 10. 11. Let it not be lawfull to get anye Bishopricke by rewardes or by other procurement but by the will of the King according to the election of the Cleargie and of the people And after besides this according as the old Canons haue decreed no Bishop maye bee giuen vnto the people againste their will Ignatius ad Philadelp It is meet that you as those which be the Church of God should choose by voyces your Bishops And the Greeke scholiast on the 14. of the Actes saith it is to bee noted that the Disciples with fasting and prayers did make election by voyces Cyprian hauing labored to prooue that the Church ought not to communicate with their Ministers which had sacrificed to Idols because they had power to choose new sayth God commaundeth the Priest to be set before the whole Synagogue that is doth ordayne and shew that briestly ordinations ought not to be made but with the conscience of the people assisting that the people beeinge present eyther the crimes of the euill shoulde be detected or the good shoulde be published and that shoulde be a iust and lawefull ordination which hath beene examined by the suffrage and iudgement of all men which afterwarde according to diuine institutions is obserued in the Actes of the Apostles c. Epist Lib. 1. Cap. 4. So Gregor Naz. in apologet Chrisost lib 3. Sacerd. So much for election the church offices follow That euery Minister of diuine seruice in the publique Congregation ought to be apt to preach COncerning this poynt the wordes of the aunswerer are these page 2. And as it seemeth such as Paule propoundeth to euery Minister as a perfect idaea which is requisite in him which is that he bee able to teache sounde doctrine to comfort to correct to instruct

change of the time in the Lords supper as it is a meere circumstance of time so the alteration hath grounde in the scripture because one and the same time is not alwaies kept Act. 3. 42. Act. 20. 7. 11. c. Neither can that be saide to be according to the institution which being done vpon a particuler cause as all Diuines agree shold not be obserued wher that cause ceaseth Thus his assertions reasons being touched heere followeth a plaine declaration of the truth as to satisfie his request or chalenge Namely that the whole substance of the ordinary gouernment of the church that is to say the vnchaungable lawes of the holy things of Offices callings examinations abdications executiōs of the reason and distinction of euery one of them is prescribed of God in his holy Worde as a perpetuall Lawe vnto his Church And although euery particuler rite order which are variable according to the circumstance be not so particulerly mentioned yet are they by certaine generall rules so limitted and prescribed that no Churche can vse them at their pleasure but ought to frame thē within the boundes set vnto them of God which may appeare by these reasons following First seeing vnder the Law God by the ministery of Moses did precisely this thing for the gouernment of his Church then so that neither Dauid nor Nehemias might alter any thing but by especial reuelation from God by his Prophets it were to make God lesse carefull of his Church vnder the gospel to make the ministery of Moses more excellent then that of Christe vnlesse in like manner he had performed the same For Christe being a King hath prescribed Lawes for his gouernment and as he is a Lorde hath ordained the diuers administrations of his Church and in this respect was faithfull as Moses in all his house Againe seeing the Apostles hauing beene taught of him by the space of forty dayes the thinges which pertaine to his kingdome Act. 1. 3. that is as the Jesuites them selues are compelled to confesse the whole regiment of Christes Church did thereuppon set down such orders for the same 1. Tim. 3. 15 and giue charge that they shoulde be kept vnblameably 1. Tim. 5. 21. otherwise then which neither Timothy nor Titus might perfect that in the gouernment of the Churche which the Apostles had begun and say that they which are spiritual must acknowledge their orders in this behalfe to bee the commaundementes of our Lorde 1. Corin. 14. 37. and will their ordinaunces in this behalfe to bee kept as they deliuered them 1. Cor. 11. 2. and euen in the matter of the maintenaunce of the ministery woulde speake not according to man but according to the Law of God and the ordinance of the Lord 1. Cor. 9. 8. 14. then euery one that is spiritual must acknowledge the former position to bee true Thirdly seeing Christe hath expresly in his Word set downe sufficient ordinary Ministeries of Exhorters Teachers Elders Deacous with their proper gifts and workes of exhorting teaching diligent watching distributing for the administring of the holy things as y e word Prayer Sacraments censures and treasury and hath ordained the Eldership for y ioynt gouernment in euery particuler Congregation with Synodes for matters common to manye Churches it followeth that the former assertion is vndoubtedly true Fourthly seeing the Apostle Paule who receiued this as y ● rest of y e Gospel by reuelation did vniformally plant y e same gouernmēt in all churches as appeareth by comparing the story of the Actes w t Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. epist to Titus it is manifest they had a forme prescribed thē by Christ to follow euē as Moses did all things according to y ● pattern shewed him in the moūt Againe seeing it is not in the power of man to alter or change these offices by addition or detraction because they cannot gyue nor take away members to and from Christes bodie but all the gyftes are from one spirite the faculties from one God the administrations from one Lorde and finally all Church Ministeries must be frō heauen and not from earth as Christ sayth the Scribes them selues confesse Then is there in the worde of God such an vnchaungeable rule of gouernment as is before declared Lastly seeing God in altering the outward face of his church vnder the Gospell diuerse from that vnder the law in regarde of y e ceremonies abolished and of things according to the riches and simplicitie of the Gospell inlarged did as well keep the substance of the Churches administration namely in ordayning for Priests Pastors for teaching Leuits or Doctors of y ● law Teachers for rulers of y ● Sinagog Churh-gouernors or Elders for their leuitical lokers to y ● treasury Deacons for their presbytery the eldership As he kept the holy thinges to be administred that is for the lawe and the Prophets together with them y e writings of the new Testament for the Passeouer Circumcision Baptisme the supper of the Lorde for their giftes of God gathering for the Saintes or Church-treasury for their suspension from the Tēple-sacrifices our separation from y ● Lords supper for their casting out of y ● Synagogue cutting off from the people our excommunication It is euident that that which God kept for the time of the Gospell he did in perfect wisdom ordayne and prescribe and that which Christ did inrich and inlarge he woulde not haue men cut of and abolish Wherfore if they will still rowle the stone of mans power to alter and chaunge this order of God let them shewe how men can take away that which God hath set in his Church let them shew how that is not perpetual which is grounded vppon those gyftes which serue for the ordinarie necessityes of the church in al times and places yea let them shew how they can more wysely instruct the people with doctrine feede them wirh exhortation rule their soules with spirituall power chastize them with an holy rodde and prouide for their earthlye necessities then the Lorde hath done and still offereth to doe by the worde of knowledge in his Teachers by the worde of wisedome in his Pastors by the continuall watche of his Elders by the spirituall keyes of his kingdome and by his mercifull and liberall prouiding for the needie And if it be a shame to preferre mans wisedome before the wisedome of God at the least let them declare by what authoritye they will compell the Church to refuse the strong arme of God for the weake arme of fleshe and bloude To these reasons maye be added the testimonies of the Fathers as of CYPRIAN IN SERMONE DE BAPTIS CHRIST The Christian religion shall finde that out of this Scripture rules of all doctrine haue spronge and that from hence doth spring and hither doth retourne whatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doth

compasse of the ordinarye power of the Church who beeing immediatelye called of God coulde not be demissed by the Church For seeing no calling can bee made voyde but by the authority which made it that which hath immediately proceeded from God can not be repealed but by his voyce Now seeing the immediat voyce of God and Christ did not onely not make voyde but further establish the calling of Aaron and Peter how could y e Church meddle with that Or how coulde the rule giuen to the Church for to direct their mediate elections rule the immediate calling of God And if this be not playne inough to cause him to see the difference which is as greate as that which is betweene GOD and his Churche the voyce of man and the voyce of GOD Let him vnderstande it by an other example of lyke reason It hath beene prooued alreadye both by the Scriptures and Fathers that none shoulde be admitted to the Ministery by the Church but such as were sufficiently qualified by ordinary meanes or gyftes giuen them alreadye of God vnto the same function Now if to defend the Bishoppes in admitting Taylors Shomakers Weauers Chaundlers Harpers beeing also men furnished with no gyftes one shoulde alleadge the calling of Amos who by God was taken from the sheepfolde beeing neyther a Prophet nor sonne of a Prophet woulde it not be a manyfest dallying in the sight of God and man But rather as the ordinary power of the Church can not heerein imitate the Lordes prerogatiue because they can not as God with their calling powre in gyftes into the personnes whereby they shoulde bee inabled to their office So they muste not followe the prerogatiue of GOD in this because they are rather to bee gealouse and suspicious for the Churches sake though other-wyse they are bound to hope the beste of a repentaunt Sinner ouer him leaste he shoulde agayne betraye the cause of GOD which in God is farre other-wyse who not onelye knoweth the heartes of men but also what strength he will after gyue him and if hee let him fall hee knoweth how to tourne it to the profitte of his Church Now as these examples in this respecte approche not vnto the matter in debate So the example of AVGVSTINE a Manachie or such lyke because the question is not of such as were before their ministerye such or carryed away with the common ignoraunce before they knew the trueth but of suche as firste seruiuge GOD in his appoynted seruice doe not onely leaue the holy altar and fire but renouncing that betake them-selues to a prophane and idolatrous seruice and priesthoode Wherin he receiueth answere also vnto his allegations of the fathers and counsels which if they should speake of such as fell in capitall pointes from the true seruice of God of which somtimes they were Ministers they should then be directly contrary to the fathers and general counsels which shal anon be brought as direct and manyfest on our side The lyke is to be answeared vnto Viret and the example of the French Churches Hauing thus aunsweared his obiections the truth is confirmed sufficiently by the reasons following out of the Scriptures and auncient witnes from the councels and Fathers 1 Whatsoeuer God hath commaunded to be done in the lawe to declare the honour he hath of his right seruice how he will haue his Ministery beautified and fenced against the cauilles of all which are perpetuall equityes of such their prescription 1. Tim. 3. 7 that is still and perpetuallye to binde the Church 2 But such is the order which now we speake of as may appeare by the 1. King 23. 9. and by the 44. of Ezech 13. 14. 15. c 3 Wherefore this order must be kept holy and vndefiled We know it will be obiected that these commaundementes be in the olde Testament not in the new and that they are ceremoniall They who shall so obiect must consider the old Testament is of equal authority with the new and therefore seeing God hath once established this law for the Church-ministery they must not repeale it but by the same authoritie vnlesse they will make with y ● Manichees one iust God for the law and an other mercifull for the Gospel So that vnlesse it maye be shewed eyther that this law was onely a shadowe for a tyme to come or was made for some cause peculier for that tyme and those persons which they can not doe because of the perpetuall equityes before assigned It followeth that this must stande for an holy and induring constitution of God And in trueth such aunswere vndermineth at once both the glorye and perfection of God his holy Scriptures not onelye in our iudgement but in the iudgement of all wryters holy and prophane who haue continually alleadged the sentences and commaundementes of the olde Testament euen for the matters of the gouernment of the Church The Apostle prooueth the mayntenaune of the Ministerye for preaching of the Gospell by the lawe made for the maintenaunce of the Priestes in the 1. Cor. 9. he prooueth women ought not to exercise authority by the places of Genesis and in the first of Tim. 2. Cyprian as all know that read him prooueth the election of the people by the place of Numbers and that men are not to attempt further then their calling by the places of Dathan Abiram Uzza in the carrying of the Arke and such lyke If this exception serue howe shall we any longer with the Fathers and Godly wryters of our age stoppe their mouthes for the proofe of the Baptisme of Children with the reasons from Circumcision drawne out of the lawe Nay that they maye see they can not vndermyne the gouernment of Christe with such aunswers but they must also shake the brazen Pyllers of the Sacred authoritye of the Magistrate Let them shew with what Argumentes they can stoppe the Mouthes of Papystes in maintayning the Supreame authoritie of the Prince and our moste gratious Soueraigne in Ecclesiasticall causes to reforme religion according to Gods word to plant Church-officers by the rules of the same and according therevnto to depose Abiather and set vp Sadotk to call synodes Ecclesiastical when need is or when the Church-gouernours neglect their dutye other then by the examples of Ezechias Solomon Jehoshaphat Josias and by the pregnant reasons drawn from them Wherfore let them leaue these euasions and shifts vnto popish diuines to whom they appertaine But least they should thinke we haue but one piller to vpholde this trueth and that onely in the olde Testament let them answere the reasons following out of the newe If Paule did rightly think It so vnlawfull to take Mark such a one as went from them from Pamphilia and accompanied them not vnto the worke y ● he would rather be at sharp strife with Barnabas the sonne of consolation and be seperated from so worthy a companion in all his labors then accept Mark herein being iustified aboue Barnabas by S. Luke

are one and not distinct To which I aunswere they may as well prooue hope and charity to be one and not distinct because the Apostle saith these three remaine faith hope and charitie because he coupleth them with and. But if these men haue not learned either that and though sometymes it rather repeateth or interpreteth then coupleth diuers thinges yet that most properly and commonlye it doth not so or that it is an elegancie with the Grecians in such long distributions to ioyne the twoo laste members especially if they bee of greater kindered and familiaritie then the rest to ioyne them with a copulatiue coniunction in the ende If I say they haue not obserued this in Homer and others Let them learne it of Paule Galath 3. where beeing about to shew that in Christe there is no difference of the outward distinctiō of kindes in this life he maketh a distinction or numbring vp of the diuers sorts and ioyneth the two last most like in nature and kindred yet not one and the same togeather saying There is neither Iewe nor Grecian ther is neither bond nor free there is neither male and female Hauing answered this obiection I proceede to other argumentes 1 Whatsoeuer is set as Church-officer in the Church by God with a distinct and proper ordinary gift that is such as we haue aboue described 2 But God hath set in the Church Doctors and giuen them their peculiar worke and gyft The Worde or vtteraunce of knowledge distinguished from the Pastors worke and gift the Word or vtteraunce of Wisdome in exhortation 3 Wherfore the Doctor is such a one as we haue described The second part is manifest by these wordes And these God hath set in his Church first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers after powers thē the gifts of healing helpers gouernors sorts of tongs are all Apostles are al propehts Are all teachers And ver 8. To this is giuen by the spirit the word of wisdom to an other the word of knowledge according to the same spirite If they say the Worde teacher is heere taken generally not properly for the Doctor besides the 8. verse which doth manifestly refel them these reasons confute them First because he distinguisheth them from apostles and Prophets which in that generall signification should comprehend them and if it should comprehende anye more then Doctours properly yet it were no reason to shutte out those who are so called Lastly seing they can shew no place where it is so taken but alwayes is generall of all Ministers of the Word as the Apostle calleth him-selfe A teacher of the Gentiles And Timothy is willed to teach as also is euery Bishop or els it is proper for the peculier Church-officer so called it were against al rule of interpretation to shut out the proper which here agreeth with the circūstances of the text take a straunge vnwonted signification as to signifie a Pastor by a Doctor Our last reason is Seeing the Prophet Esay prophesying of the calling of the Gentiles by the ministerie of the Apostles doth also prophesie that of these called to the faith he would take of them to be Priestes and Leuites meaning according as the Prophets vse to speake by offices and holy thinges of the lawe to note out such offices as had some similitude proportion with those vnder the Gospell them to be Pastors who in administring of the Sacraments sleaing by exhortation the old man offring vp the new man acceptable to God holde proportion with the Priestes and to be Leuits whose office concerning y ● substantiall poynt of deliuery of doctrine is one the same with theirs that it must needs be that according to the scriptures of the new Testament this prophesie shold be fulfilled in the office of Doctors as well as of Pastors And this was that which the Fathers ment in their cōmon resembling of Pastors to Priestes Eusebius declareth this most plainly in setting down the duties of y ● Doctor to catechise them as a master his schollers by continual reading to them or exercising to aduance them in knowledge For writing of y ● persecution of y ● church vnder Seuerus speaking of Origin he saith ●he exercise of teaching or the schole exercising as some where euen himself maketh relation in writing none serued or was set to catechise at Alexandria but all were driuen away by the threatning of persecution some of the Gentils came vnto him to heare the word of God And a little after Origin was then 18. yeare old when he was ouer the schoole of catechising or instructing And Nazianzen saith in Orat. Pros tous politeuomenous The seruants must be subiect to their masters the wiues to their husbands the Church to the Lorde the Disciples to their Pastors and Teachers Of the Elders and Eldership HAuing ended the treatise of the Doctor his office we are to proceede vnto the Elders and Eldership with whom he dealeth as prophanely as with the others his wordes are fol. 43. But why are Presbyteri such as expoūd in the Church translated Elders I trust he mindeth not hereby to shut out all lay-men from the Eldership or seigniory which is dreamed of least peraduenture he him self be Exclusissimus And Pag. 57. And doth our Author thinke that this man heere doth meane their laye Presbiteries neuer heard nor reade of from the beginning of the worlde till within these fortye yeares or little more because he nameth them Ecclesiasticall Magistrates In which wordes of our author wee see his cheefest reason against the Ecclesiasticall Presbyterie is that the Elders are lay and the Presbyteries lay and therefore there hath not beene heard til within this forty year of them in the world To which we answere if y ● Elders which ioine with the Pastor Doctor were lay men yet it followeth not that the Eldership is lay But can his degree of Doctor if he bee so much giue such credite vnto his bare word as though all y ● Christian Churches which by the grace of God do exercise this discipline shoulde bee beleeued to haue a Presbitery of such as are not elected and ordained Ecclesiastically to their office If I be not deceiued herein his lawes may teach him if he wil not learn it out of the Scriptures that whosoeuer is called with due examination and trial with the consent of those to whom it appertaineth and are with fasting and prayers or prayers onely and with imposition of hands seperated or put a part to that office that they are Ecclesiastical persons and not lay-men as he calleth them otherwise there is no rule in the Scripture to descerne betweene men priuate and betweene Church-officers Nowe if hee consider either the order which we maintaine out of the Scripture or that which is practized in al reformed Churches he shal find that they are duely examined by the Elders elected of the whole Churche ordeined of the Eldership yea hee

seruice to euil kinges he addeth least this long treatise shoulde seeme altogeather impertinent that he could not chuse but oppose to the fanaticall spirites and traiterous allegations both of these dangerous innouators of the rebellious Papistes But alas why are we poore Ministers as he calleth vs before whom a man of meane estate wil not regard so dangerous He answereth because we would haue our soueraignes kingdome to be holden at the chiefe inferior magistrates the people or Presbyteries deuotion Oh heauen O earth O Lorde our God the searcher of the secreats of all hearts the author of the holy discipline we seek reueale we besech thee our horrible treason bring vpon vs our children for euer vtter cōfusion in this life in y ● life to come if this wickednes be either intended thought vpon or be likely to follow vpon the discipline which we seeke or vpon our desire of the same If you O you holy fathers and ministers of God which haue writetn for defended mayntained with great danger attained vnto this may not cleare our cause by y ● vn fained fidelitye which you haue shewed to christian Princes yet let your wisedome experience Oh you Princes and Magistrates which haue receiued it honored it tried it beare witnesse vnto the innocēcie of this cause Shal that which hath bin a friend to magistrates when they were enemies to it be enemies to Magistrats when they should be friends vnto it Shal that which D. Whitgift himself confesseth namely That such Seniors were but long ago worne out of vse For which he alleadgeth the sentence of Ambrose before alleadged shal that I say called for of that holye man become traiterous pernitious to the state Can the office of an Archbishop in the second place of the land doing al that alone and more in Church-matters then the seniours hauing with it ciuil power and authority be free from this suspition and cannot Ministers and Elders of base account in the world medling onely as the Apostles with spirituall matters that according to the word of God be void of al surmize of such vilanous practise can their counsels be accounted safe where none come but themselues whō they wil who are deuoted to their honor kingdome ecclesiasticall And shal the ministers consultations be so fit for such practises where so many Elders as he sayth lay men of all degrees may be present where the Magistrates may haue both their eyes their eares Whose decrees in al matters of greatest waight of Excōmunication Election Abdication ending of common controuersies must come vnder the conscience of all men yea whose whole acts and counsels may easily be seene by the Magistrate who may force them to a new course if they doe any thing preiudiciall to the estate The good king Iehoshaphat according to the Word of God and the example of his father Dauid ordeined besides the Priests and Leuites in all Cities the cheefe of Families for the iudgementes of the Lord and for the matters of God besides others appoynted for ciuill matters called the kings matters Now shall wee thinke that hee coulde not see into the matters of a kingdome and the safety thereof aswell as this man The Princes of Iuda at their returne when their state was subiect vnto so many dangers when their Prophets conspired against them yet vphelde the Ecclesiasticall Presbytery to threaten excommunication and seperation from Gods people to the obstinate sinners as wel they thē-selues did confiscation of goodes and ciuill punishment neither were they euer iealous ouer their estate Wherefore seeing we haue such a cloude of witnesses of these tymes and of former both vnder the law and vnder the Gospel we need not feare but their lying irōforhead in charging vs with such traiterous opinions shalbe manifest to all and shall tourne vppon their owne heades For manifestation whereof let the Magistrates consider what is written of them highly derogatorie vnto their estate and freedome which they make them beleue that they maintaine First they say the forme and maner of Church gouernment may be altered by the Magistrate then they say the externall gouernment of the Church vnder a Christian Magistrate must be according to the forme of gouernment used in the common-wealth Which is flat contrary to that that the Christian Magistrate may alter at their good pleasure Which also driueth the Queenes moste excellent maiesty eyther to part her Crowne with some other or else muste make one Archbishop not only of byshops but also ouer Archb. y ● in the Church there maye be a Monark as wel as in the common-wealth Againe when they say y ● Archb. is contayned vnder S. Paules Bishop they leaue it not in the Magistrates power to take away his iurisdiction how daungerous so euer it be to her estate Agayne let them consider into what a low place they bring the Magistrate into in the Church when expounding the place of the Corinthes of him they make him go after the teacher therfore much more after the Archbi Hauing therfore noted these their open contradictions most absurd opinions preiudicial indeed to her maiesties authority let vs ere we passe from this general what the forme of ecclesiastical gouernment is consider once againe of his assertion and see whether it bewray not manifest ignorance containe not cōtradiction repugnance in it selfe and be not highly derogatory to Christ his scriptures His words are these pag. 192. Now as concerning the inward gouernment of the Church of Christ by his spirite God working in his children by the Ministers of his writtē reuealed word also touching the essential poynts of the outwarde policy gouernment of the church consisting in the true teaching of the word of God in the due administration of sacraments according to christs holy institution in the aduancement furthering of vertue with the beating downe of sinne and impiety and in keeking the Church in a quiet vnity and good order there is no difference of opinion amongst vs. And a little after we affirm that no such precise exact forme of external gouerment of the Church by discipline as they depaint it out is so much as by any exāple recōmended vnto vs in scripture but much lesse commanded as a continuall platforme for euer to be followed In which assertion omitting the nakednes of it armed with no proofe out of the scripture or any good reason let vs see how it sheweth such grosse ignoraunce as is not to be lucked for in a man of his gifts for it deleareth that he can not distinguish betweene the cause instrument and meanes of a thing and the thing it selfe betweene gouernment and the essentiall partes of gouernment and the fruits of it For gouerment Ecclesiasticall that is the spirituall administration of Christ by the order and instruments of his Church which he hath ordayned is a different thing from the truth of