dirt vpon his Church the honest Quaker will say I am a profane man others perhaps will say I am of no Religion but a despiser of all and our Congregations are so vncharitable that likely none will accept of me because I say all religions are very good a sad thing that a man must be hated for speaking well of his neighbours and that each one must have all the world to be naught but himself this then is my Religion To suffer persecution for justice and truth to render good for evil to bless those who curse me and speake well of all congregations whylst they speake all evil against me reflect well vpon what J discoursed hitherto and you will find J am as great a louer of the Reformation as they who may think me its enemie and reade my following discourse and you will find I loue Popery as well as the Reformation the Spirit of God makes no exception of Persons Ismael You promised to proue by the Principles of the Reformation that wee may believe all the Tenets of Popery and remain still of the Reformation how can this be Isaac You remember I excepted one Principle of Poperie wherin you must necessarily dissent from them and if you deny this one Principle you may believe all their others Tenets as well as the Pope and be as â—ood a Child of the Reformation as Luther Ismael What Principle is this which you seem to make the only distinctive sign of a Reformed from a Papist Isaac Listen a whyle a Papist is not a Papist because he believes Purgatory Transubstantiation Indulgences and the rest of Popish Tenets but because he believes them vpon the testimonie of the Pope and Church because they assure him they are revealed Truths if a Papist did say J believe these Tenets because I myself do judge by scripture that they are revealed and not because the Pope and Church say they are he would be no Papist The Papist believes the Mystery of the Trinity the Incarnation and passion of Christ the Protestant believes the same Mysteries yet the one is a Papist and no Protestant the other is a Protestant and no Papist And why because the Papist believes them vpon the testimonie of the Pope and Church the Protestant believes them vpon the testimony of Gods Written Word believe then whatever you please of Popery provided you believe it because you judge by Scripture its true and not because the Pope or the Church sayes it you 'l never be a Papist but a perfect Reformed Ismael If this discourse be solid you may hedge in all the Articles of Popery into our Reformation Isaac If you peruse the works of our Reformed Drs you 'l hardly find any Article of Popery but has been judged by many or som of our best Reformed Drs to be the true Doctrin of scripture and wheras any Doctrin which any Person of sound judgment vnderstands by scripture to be true may be justly called the Doctrin of the Reformation it follows that hardly is there any Article of Popery for which wee see so many persecutions againsts subjects and such troubles in our Parliaments but is truly the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael Shew me som examples of this Isaac The Veneration of Relicks and Saints dead bones is generally believed by vs to be meer Popery and superstition therefore wee made no store of Luther and Calvins bones tho wee know them to be as great Saints as any in the Popish Church but Veneration of Relicks and Saints bones is the Doctrin of our Reformation for whatever is set down and commended by our Common Prayer book must be vndoubtedly esteemed our Reformed Doctrin and practice and our common Prayer book printed since our Kings happy restauration in its Kalender sets down a day to the Translation of S. Edward king of Saxons Body in the month of June and dedicats an other to the translation of the Bodies of S. Martin and Swithin in the month of July The Veneration and vse of the Sign of the Cross is flat Popery in the judgment of all our Congregations yet any Reformed Child may laudably and piously vse it wheras our Common Prayer Book in the Administration of Baptism commands the Minister to vse it saying Wee sign him with the sign of the Cross in token that heerafter he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified and manfully to fight vnder his banner against Sin the world and the Deuil And in our kalender printed since his Majesti's restauration it s called the Holy Cross Our Congregations generally believe its Popery to keep Holy daies except the Sabboth day and Saints daies to fast Lent Vigils commanded Emberdays and fridaies and all this is recommanded to vs in our Common Prayer book and the Minister is commanded in the Administration of the Lords Supper to publish the Holy daies of the week and exhort vs to fast and surely he is not commanded to teach or exhort vs to any thing but to the Doctrin of the Reformation It 's true the Students of our Colledges of Oxford and Cambridge are much troubled with scruples in this point these Pauperes de Lugduno are compelled to fast all fridays throughout the yeare and it s not hungar that makes them complain but tenderness of Conscience because they feare its Popery It 's a Popish error wee say to believe that Pennance or our penal works of fasting almsdeeds or corporal austerities can auaile and helpe for the remission of our Sins and satisfying Gods Justice No we say penal works serue for noting all is don by Repentance that 's to say by sorrow of heart for having offended God This is the Doctrin of Danaeus Willet Junius and Calvin who saies Francis Dominick Bernard Antony and the rest of Popish Monks and Fryars are in hell for their austerities and penal Works for all that you may very well believe and its the Doctrin of the Reformation that Pennance and Penal Works do auaile for the remission of our sins and are very profitable to the soule for our Common Prayer booke in the Commination against sinners saies thus In the Primitive Church there was a godly Disciplin that at the beginning of Lent such as were notorious Sinners were put to open pennance and punisht in this world that their soules may be saued in the day of the Lord. And our Common Prayer booke wishes that this Disciplin were restored again and Surely it does not wish that Popery were restored therefore it s no Popery to say that Pennance or penal Works do satisfy for our sins in this world and auaile to save vs in the other Ismael I know many of our Congregations mislike much our Common Prayer booke for these Popish Tenets but what do you say of the grand errors of Popery can a man be a true Child of the Reformation and yet believe the Popes Supremacy deny the kings supremacy believe Transubstantiation and Communion in one kind are these
in the Catholic Doctrin of the Church of England pag. 103. which is but an exposition of the 39. Articles Our Rule of faith is but Scripture as each Person of sound judgment in the Church vnderstands it Authority is given to the Church and to each person of sound judgment in it to judge in Controversies of faith and this is not the privat judgment of our Church but also of our Brethren of forreign Countries Ismael J confess not only these but many other Drs abet your discourse and the General Vogue of our Reformation is for Scripture as each one vnderstands it but alas you see well that wee can never settle any Religion or Church by such a Rule of faith Isaac You can never settle any but rhis That every man may without leâ— or hinderance believe what he please and why should not this be a good Religion if Scripture as each one vnderstands it be not our Rule of faith if we must be constrained to believe Scripture not as wee vnderstand it but as it is vnderstood by this or that Congregation whâ— difference betwixt vs and Papists They must believe Scripture as interpreted by the Pope and Councilâ— have ever so much light from God be ever so wise and witty you muâ— depose your own judgment aâ— submit to that of the Pope Counciâ— and Popish Church to this pass â— are come also wee must believe tâ— kings supremacie Episcopacy Fâ—gurative presence tho perhaps we dâ— not judge by Scripture it be trâ— Doctrin wee are constrained by Penal laws and Acts of Parliament tâ— believe them as Papists by the Inquisition and why because thâ— Church of England vnderstands bâ— Scripture its true and if you replâ— you do not interpret Scripture sâ— you 'l not be heard you must submiâ— and believe against your judgment and what 's this but plain Popish Tyrany ouer mens consciences Did Luther and Calvin forsake the Pope and Councils for to submit their judgments to any other No but to follow Scripture as each one of them vnderstood it and tho Luther was a man raysed by God and replenisht with his spirit to repair the ruins of the Church yet Calvin did no more submit to him than Luther did to the Pope nor did Zuinglius submit to Calvin but followed his own sense of Scripture nor did Oecolampadius submit to Zuinglius but every one searched the Scripture believed and taught what they thought to be true and thus we became a Reformation of Popery if therefore we will continue a Reformation and walk by the spirit of our first blessed Reformers wee must not be constrained to believe any mans sense of Scripture we must believe whateuer we think to be true and have no other Rule of faith but Scripture as each one vnderstands it Ismael And what then what do you inferr from this discourse Isaac This consequence that wheras no true Child of the Reformation be he of what Congregation you will can justly deny our Rule of faith to be Scripture as any Person of sound judgment interprets it it follows vnauoidably that the Doctrin of the Reformation is Whatever any Person of sound judgment interprets to be the true sense of Scripture and whatever Luther Calvin Beza or any other of sound judgment in the Reformation since its first ryse vntill this day taught to be the true sense of Scripture is to be called and esteemed the Doctrin of the Reformation tho to others of this or that Congregation it may seem to be wicked and scandalous Doctrin And now let me answer to an objection you made against this Principle in our entrance to this discourse you objected that many Papish Drs and Casuists delivered scandalous and base Doctrins which the Papists will not admit to be the Doctrin of their Church tho deliverd by Papish Drs and thence you pretended that the particular sentiments of privat Drs of the Reformation are not to be called the Doctrin of our Church But be pleased to observe the difference betwixt Popery and our Reformation the Rule of faith in Popery is Scripture as interpreted by the Pope and Council or their Church they will admit no other consequently no Doctrin is to be called Popery but what is judged by the Pope and his Church or Council to be the sense of Scripture and if any Dr or Universitie holds any sense contrary to theirs it is to be called the Doctrin of that particular person and not the Doctrin of the Popish Church because their Rule of faith is not Scripture as interpreted by any Person of sound judgment but as interpreted by their Pope and Council But wheras our Rule of faith in the Reformation is Scripture as each person of sound judgment interprets it whatever Doctrin or sense is said by any man to be of Scripture is justly to be called the Doctrin of the Reformation for example Melancton a man of sound judgment great learning and of an vpright conscience taught Bigamy to be the Doctrin of scripture Beza taught the Lords supper might be administer'd in any kind of victuals as well as in bread and wine Calvin taught that Christ despaired on the Cross and suffered the pains of hell after his death why then let all the Bishops and Universities of England condemn this Doctrin let all the Synods of France and Germany decry it the Doctrin will be still of the Reformation because its Scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment Ismael The heate of your discourse has tyred you and my memorie iâ— sufficiently loaden with what yoâ— have said let me digest it in my privat retirement and wee will meeâ— again Isaac Content carrie with yoâ— these three points which I have proved convincingly first our Rule of faith is Scripture not as interpreted by this or that but by anâ— man of sound judgment secondly iâ— follows hence that the Doctrin of thâ— Reformation must be and ought to be called whatever any man of sound judgment saies is the sense of scripture thirdly it follows wee may change Religions as often as wee please III. DIALOGUE ISMAEL I remember well the summary of your last discourse given me in three points and I find the second to be absurd and repugnant to reason you 'l neuer perswade it tho you have pleaded for it with great energy what if a silly Woman Cobler or other tradesman reade Scripture and giue their sense of it that forsooth must be called the Doctrin of the Reformation and it shall be lawfull for them to believe it against the Doctrin of the whole Church Isaac Do not limit Gods infinit goodness by measuring his mercies towards his Creatures with your narrow apprehensions take notice he saies he has chosen the weake and contemptible of the world for to confound the strong ones I confess vnto you Father that you have hid thesâ— things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them to the little ones And therefore he choosed poore simple
swerued from the spirit and holyness of the Reformation which hauing no other Rule of faith but Scripture as each Person of sound judgment vnderstands it it 's Spirit and holyness consist in framing our life and Doctrin to that Rule as our blessed Reformers and Reformation in its beginning did believing those Tenets which you call Errors and blasphemy and liuing that life which you call Dissolution and corruption of Manners because they judge by Scripture as they vnderstood it that Doctrin and manner of life was true innocent and good and if you like it as they did you may believe and liue as they did and be a good Child of the Reformation consider I pray all the works and Doctrin of Luther the like I say of our other first Reformers the three parts of his Doctrin is against Popery and They say all are Heresies and blasphemies the rest is contrary to the Church of England and she saies this is also Errors and blasphamie so you conspire with the Papists to destroy the credit of our first and best Reformer and betwixt you both you vnplume him of all his Feathers and leaue him not a bit of good Doctrin But I will stand to the Spirit and Principles of the Reformation and Congregations as now they are since that you do so much boast of its purity and great Perfections and I will prove that Doctrin and manner of life may be believed and followed lawfully standing to its Principles for if the Spirit of the Reformation be at present among vs wee must not be forced as in Popery to believe against our proper judgments what others believe by Scripture to be ttue and holy but what each one thinks in his own conscience to be such because even now at present our Rule of faith is Scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it and this is the same Rule which Luther and the Reformation in its beginning had this holy libertie is the best iewel the greatest perfection and most glorious prerogative the Reformation has if therefore now at present any man judges by scripture that he can marry ten wyves at a time that he can kill his owne son as Abraham intended that he may commit incest with his own Daughter as Lot did that there is no sin but incredulity as Luther believed nor any Mysterie of the Trinitie of Persons in one nature as Calvin believed with what justice can the Church of England say a man does not believe and live as becometh a Reformed Child or that his Doctrin and life is scandalous wheras he lives and believes as he vnderstands by Scripture he may or ought to do which is the Rule of faith of the Reformation even of the Church of England the Church of England saies the Lutheran Doctrin of the real Presence is not the Doctrin of Scripture that the Presbyterian Doctrin against Episcopacy is not the Doctrin of Scripture that the Anabaptist Doctrin against infants Baptism is not of Scripture and yet you permit them all to live in peace you confess they are true Children of the Reformation tho dissenters from you why because they follow Scripture as they vnderstand it and this is our Rule of faith and why will not you say the belief and life of that other man is also of the Reformation tho absurd it may seem to you since he believes and lives as he judges by Scripture he may it follows therefore plainly that this is the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael I confess our Rule of faith in the Reformation is Scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it but you cannot doubt but that its needfull to moderat and curb this libertie or it may run too farr for if every man be lycenc't to believe and teach every thing he fancies to be according Scripture as there is no Doctrin so execrable but som ignorant Reader may hit vpon a text which ill vnderstood may seem to favor it so there will be none but may be believed and called the Doctrin of the Reformation for example Beza teaches and saies its also the Doctrin of Calvin Saumaize and Geneve that the Lords supper may belawfully administer'd in any kind of victuals as well as in bread and wine in Eges flesh fish c. Where there is no bread and wine saies he wee may duly celebrat if insteed of them we vse what wee vsually eate and drink And again in the same place If there be no water at hand and that baptism ' cannot be with edification differed I would baptize in any other liquor Isaac and why should not it be lawfull to any Reformed to believe this wheras its Scripture as interpreted by a man of so sound a judgment but I do not in any wise like that opinion of yours and of the Church of England that its convenient to limit and curb mens judgments least they may run too farr this is the Policy of Rome They will not permit an arbitrary interpretation of Scripture alleadging forsooth for inconveniencie the multitude of absurd Doctrins which the word would swarm with if such a libertie were granted No No far be it from any true Reformed Child to mislike or blame that all people should interpret Scripture and believe what they judge by it to be true and if what the judge to be true should seem to you fals and scandalous do not you believe it but let them believe it and they will be of the Reformation because they follow our Rule of faith Ismael Luther Melancton Musculus Ochinus Beza and others teach the lawfullness of Bigamy or multiplicity of Wives and prove it with the example of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Ochinus expounding the text of S. Paul It behoueth a Bishop to be a man of one Wife The prohibition saies he is not to be vnderstood so that a Bishop should have but one wife at a time for certainly he may have many but S. Paul's meaning is that he ought not to have too many wyves at a time that 's to say ten or twentie Isaac And will you deny this to be the Doctrin of the Reformation wheras its Scripture as interpreted by men of so eminent and sound a judgment Ismael The synod of Geneve and the Ecclesiastical Disciplin of France printed at Saumure has decreed that a wife whose husband is a long time absent may have him called by the public Cryer and if within a competent time he does not appear without any further enquiry the Minister may lycence her to marry an other or marry her himself Isaac J say all honest Women may practise this Doctrin without scruple or shame wheras its Scripture as interpreted by that thrice holy synod but let seamen beware how they undertake long voyages for feare their Wyves may take other husbands in their absence Ismael Luther teachs its lawfull to a wife if her husband does not please her to call her
taught expresly by Urbanus Regius Bucer Zuinglius Melancton Luther the Common Prayer book in king Edwards time printed 1549. and many others of our learned Drs and what can you call more properly the Doctrin of the Reformation than what such men teach to be the Doctrin of scripture And tho our Brethren Quakers Anabaptists Presbyterians and Protestants judge Prayers to Angels and Saints to be nothing else but Popery yet our Common Prayer booke has the same Collect or Prayer to Angels in S. Michael's day that the Popish Mass Book has and desires that the Angels may succour and defend vs on earth and prayers to and intercession of Saints is taught by Luther Bilneus and Latimer quoted by Fox and consequently its the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael If all these Popish Articles may be safely believed by the Reformation and be the Doctrin of our Reformed Church as well as of Popery what difference then betwixt vs and Popery or why are we called a Reformation of Popery or why did wee separat from them Isaac J have told you already that our difference from Popery is not because wee must deny what they believe for wee believe as well as they the Unity and Trinity of God the Jncarnation of his son c. but in this that the Papists believe because the Pope and Church saies this is true revealed Doctrin but wee believe not because any Church Pope or Doctor saies so but because wee ourselves judge by scripture it is so for if a Papist did say I do not believe this is a revealed Truth because the Pope and Church saies it is but because I find by scripture it is he would be no Papist believe then whatever Doctrin you will either Popery Iudaism Protestancy Arianism or what else you please provided you judge by scripture it is true and that you believe it not because this or that Church Congregation or Drs believe it but because yourself judges it to be true you 'l be a true Child of the Reformation And this is the reason why wee are called a Reformation and why wee separated from them because they would haue vs take for our Rule of faith Scripture as interpreted by them and believe not what wee judge to be the Doctrin of Scripture but what they judge and this is also the Reason why Ptesbyterians are jealous with the Church of England why Anabaptists forsake Presbyterians why these are forsaken by Quakers because each one would haue the world judge as they do and persecute and trouble one another which is quite against the Spirit of the Reformation for wher as our Rule of faith is no Church Congregation or man but Scripture as each one vnderstands it it follows that by our Principles every one must be permitted to believe whatever he pleases and by so doing he will be a true Child of the Reformation Ismael The Church of England nor any of our Congregations will neuer believe any of those Popish Tenets Isaac The time may come that they may believe them all and be still as good Reformeds as now they are for if the Pope and his Church should to morrow deny and excommunicat those Tenets which now they so stedfastly believe and I hope they will som day then it would be a pious and virtuous action in all Reformed Children to believe them all as much as now they deny them and let vs pretend what other reason wee please but it s very certain that the strongest reason wee can haue to deny those Articles is because the Pope and his Church believes them and consequently if the Popish Church would but deny them wee might and ought to believe them you will think this a Paradox but listen to our Apostolical and Divin Luther If a general Council saies he did permit Priests to marry it would be a singular mark of piety and sign of Godlyness in that case to take Concubins rather than to marry in conformity to the Decree of the Council I would in that case command Priests not to marry vnder pain of damnation And again saies he if the Council should decree Communion in both kinds in contempt of the Council I would take one only kind or none See these words of Luther quoted by our learned Hospinian and Jewel and see it s not only my Doctrin but of great Luther that in case the Pope and Council deny all the Tenets they now believe wee may and it will be a pious godly action to believe them and make as many Acts of Parliament for them as now wee have against them But what 's the matter me thinks you become pale som thing troubles you speake what i st Ismael It 's the horror J conceive against your discourse my countenance cannot be in a calm when my mind is in such a storm and confusion pursue no more you said enough that J should curse the day J haue euer seen you or heard that which you call Holy Liberty which is but a prostitution of Consciences a profanation of all that is sacred and an open gap to all impiety in Doctrin and manners but J hope the Lord has giuen me that profound respect and attache to our holy Reformation that I shall not be beatten from it by all your engines able to inspire a contempt and hatred of it to any weake Brother for who would liue a moment in it if such impious Tenets such sandalous and blasphemous Doctrins were of it or were vnauoidable sequeles out of its principles No No the Principles of the Reformed Church are sound and Orthodox and no Doctrin can follow from them but what 's pure and true Isaac Let me tell you J have as tender a loue for the Reformation as you and J will maintain the holy Libertie J assert cannot justly be called a prostitution of Consciences for you dare not deny but this is an Orthodox and sound Principle that our Rule of faith is Scripture as â—ach Person of sound judgement vnderstands it that it is lawfull for each person of sound judgment to reade it to giue his judgement of the true sense of it and to believe and hold that sense of it which he thinks in his Conscience to be true is there any prostitution of Consciences in this Doctrin or is it not the Doctrin of our Reformation Ismael All this in true the prostitution of consciences leyes not there but in the scandalous and blasphemous Tenets which you pretend that follow out of that Rule of faith Isaac But you wrong the Reformation in calling such Tenets blasphemies and scandals for since our Rule of faith is Scripture as each Person of soud judgment vnderstands it if this Rule of faith be good and sound if it be religious and holy any Doctrin that is conformable to this Rule must be good sound religious and holy this being our Rule of faith and manners it s cleerer than day light