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law_n write_a write_v year_n 107 3 4.4301 3 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A88107 The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster. Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1645 (1645) Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462 96,520 124

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the_o duty_n of_o such_o as_o have_v the_o legislative_a power_n wherein_o he_o that_o find_v the_o fault_n be_v fit_a to_o do_v the_o office_n of_o a_o admonitor_n unto_o they_o to_o suspend_v their_o authority_n for_o matter_n of_o religion_n and_o to_o ordain_v and_o decree_v nothing_o of_o that_o subject_n to_o be_v receive_v or_o observe_v 2._o a_o second_o reason_n which_o have_v reference_n to_o conscience_n he_o bring_v in_o upon_o experience_n thus_o 4._o thus_o §._o 5._o p._n 4._o we_o have_v find_v by_o experience_n that_o the_o speedy_a settle_n of_o government_n upon_o a_o nation_n have_v make_v reformation_n take_v little_a root_n save_v in_o the_o outward_a man_n or_o formal_a obedience_n because_o they_o receive_v not_o reformation_n in_o the_o power_n of_o the_o word_n but_o of_o the_o state_n which_o go_v not_o so_o deep_a into_o the_o conscience_n but_o they_o can_v part_v with_o it_o at_o any_o time_n upon_o a_o law_n and_o he_o conclude_v his_o observation_n with_o a_o pathetical_a interrogation_n o_o then_o why_o do_v not_o day_n speak_v and_o multitude_n of_o year_n teach_v knowledge_n to_o this_o may_v be_v reply_v 1._o that_o if_o he_o mean_v it_o in_o respect_n of_o our_o own_o kingdom_n and_o that_o experience_n be_v most_o like_a to_o come_v within_o his_o cognizance_n the_o fault_n be_v not_o in_o the_o over-speedy_a settle_n of_o a_o government_n but_o in_o the_o choice_n of_o a_o wrong_a government_n viz._n that_o of_o prelacy_n which_o by_o a_o act_n and_o ordinance_n of_o parliament_n and_o by_o the_o nationall_n covenant_n be_v cry_v down_o 2._o if_o when_o discipline_n be_v establish_v doctrine_n be_v abolish_v or_o for_o a_o time_n suspend_v and_o silence_v there_o be_v some_o force_n in_o this_o exception_n of_o mr._n saltmarsh_n but_o doctrine_n go_v on_o where_o discipline_n come_v in_o as_o a_o school_n master_n be_v at_o the_o same_o time_n in_o office_n both_o a_o teacher_n and_o a_o corrector_n of_o his_o scholar_n and_o so_o the_o power_n of_o the_o word_n may_v go_v deep_a into_o the_o conscience_n and_o the_o discipline_n or_o government_n be_v rather_o a_o help_n than_o a_o hindrance_n to_o that_o operation_n for_o 3._o the_o discipline_n or_o government_n be_v as_o a_o hedge_n or_o wall_n about_o the_o doctrine_n of_o religion_n a_o goad_n or_o spur_v to_o the_o mean_n of_o grace_n to_o bring_v man_n under_o the_o power_n of_o the_o word_n operation_n a_o curb_n to_o licentious_a course_n all_o which_o conduce_v much_o to_o the_o keep_n of_o the_o conscience_n void_a of_o offence_n towards_o god_n and_o man_n and_o though_o with_o many_o the_o reformation_n reach_v no_o further_o than_o the_o outward_a man_n yet_o that_o be_v not_o to_o be_v impute_v to_o the_o discipline_n which_o bring_v they_o to_o the_o word_n but_o to_o their_o own_o corruption_n and_o satan_n sleight_n and_o deceit_n which_o hinder_v the_o word_n kind_o and_o save_a work_n upon_o they_o 4._o where_o the_o discipline_n have_v be_v right_o choose_v and_o timely_o establish_v god_n have_v bless_v it_o with_o better_a fruit_n as_o in_o the_o kingdom_n of_o scotland_n whence_o it_o be_v that_o that_o church_n have_v have_v the_o favour_n and_o honour_n from_o god_n to_o be_v free_a both_o from_o heresy_n and_o schism_n where_o with_o we_o of_o this_o kingdom_n and_o state_n have_v abound_v so_o much_o the_o more_o as_o the_o discipline_n bathe_v be_v the_o more_o delay_v which_o agreoth_v to_o mr._n saltmarsh_n his_o politic_a observation_n in_o these_o word_n 69._o word_n m._n saltmarsh_n his_o practice_n of_o policy_n pol._n 81._o p._n 69._o when_o place_n of_o authority_n be_v likely_a to_o be_v vacant_a much_o more_o when_o authority_n itself_o be_v at_o a_o nonplus_n be_v ready_a in_o project_n with_o a_o successor_n long_a interregnum_n or_o interstice_n i_o intermission_n in_o government_n be_v the_o winter_n and_o ill_a season_n of_o a_o state_n where_o the_o night_n be_v long_o and_o the_o day_n short_a 5._o and_o last_o for_o his_o epiphonema_n with_o the_o word_n of_o elihu_n forementioned_a which_o be_v take_v out_o of_o job_n 32._o vers_fw-la 6_o 7._o why_o do_v not_o day_n speak_v and_o multitude_n of_o year_n teach_v knowledge_n they_o make_v nothing_o for_o his_o purpose_n for_o the_o meaning_n of_o they_o be_v not_o that_o government_n or_o discipline_n or_o any_o other_o useful_a thing_n shall_v not_o be_v with_o all_o convenient_a speed_n establish_v but_o that_o the_o ancient_a with_o who_o be_v wisdom_n job_n 12.12_o the_o gray_a head_a and_o very_a age_a man_n chap._n 15.10_o who_o have_v have_v the_o experience_n of_o many_o day_n and_o year_n shall_v be_v hear_v and_o heed_v in_o matter_n of_o advice_n and_o consultation_n before_o such_o green-headed_n counselor_n as_o rehoboam_n follow_v to_o his_o ruin_n 1_o king_n 12._o vers_fw-la 13_o 14._o sect_n v._o the_o argument_n against_o the_o speedy_a settle_n of_o church_n government_n take_v from_o example_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n in_o general_n answer_v a_o 4._o a_o §_o 3._o p._n 3_o 4._o three_o head_n of_o exception_n against_o the_o speedy_a so_o he_o call_v it_o paragraph_v 5._o though_o the_o word_n hasty_o please_v he_o better_o in_o the_o body_n of_o the_o quere_z set_v up_o of_o government_n be_v take_v from_o christian_a example_n contrary_n to_o 1._o the_o new_a testament_n in_o general_n 2._o in_o particular_a to_o 1._o the_o example_n of_o christ_n and_o that_o two_o way_n in_o respect_n 1._o of_o his_o description_n §_o 6._o p._n 4._o 2._o of_o his_o practice_n §_o 3._o p._n 3_o 4._o 2._o the_o example_n of_o the_o most_o ancient_a christian_n and_o excellent_a minister_n of_o christ_n 1._o as_o of_o john_n baptist_n christ_n forerunner_n 2._o the_o apostle_n his_o follower_n 1._o for_o the_o general_a 4._o §_o 4._o p._n 4._o we_o never_o read_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n of_o a_o government_n settle_v upon_o any_o that_o be_v not_o bring_v first_o under_o gospel_n obedience_n by_o the_o power_n of_o the_o word_n and_o spirit_n which_o thousand_o of_o congregation_n in_o this_o kingdom_n be_v not_o for_o as_o in_o material_a building_n stone_n and_o timber_n be_v not_o to_o be_v clap_v together_o without_o hew_v and_o square_n so_o not_o in_o the_o spiritual_a and_o whereas_o in_o the_o temple_n there_o shall_v be_v neither_o axe_n nor_o hammer_n hear_v because_o thing_n be_v fit_v before_o hand_n and_o so_o lay_v together_o i_o question_v how_o this_o can_v be_v in_o our_o congregation_n now_o i_o believe_v there_o will_v be_v now_o more_o of_o the_o axe_n and_o hammer_n hear_v then_o of_o the_o build_a seen●_n answer_n 1._o here_o he_o argue_v from_o the_o example_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n negative_o which_o consider_v the_o difference_n and_o disproportion_n of_o the_o time_n be_v very_o impertinent_a for_o the_o conversion_n we_o read_v of_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v from_o paganism_n and_o judaisme_n to_o christianity_n and_o while_o man_n be_v jew_n or_o pagan_n they_o be_v uncapable_a of_o a_o christian_a government_n our_o congregation_n in_o england_n consist_v of_o profess_a christian_n who_o as_o such_o be_v capable_a of_o and_o liable_a to_o a_o gospel_n government_n without_o which_o the_o sanctification_n of_o the_o sabbath_n the_o preach_n of_o the_o word_n can_v be_v well_o order_v nor_o either_o of_o the_o sacrament_n right_o administer_v and_o though_o in_o thousand_o of_o congregation_n there_o be_v many_o who_o the_o power_n of_o the_o word_n and_o spirit_n have_v not_o bring_v to_o gospel_n obedience_n it_o be_v no_o cause_n why_o a_o gospel_n government_n shall_v not_o be_v establish_v over_o they_o nay_o rather_o it_o be_v reason_n why_o it_o shall_v be_v hasten_v upon_o they_o and_o we_o may_v impute_v the_o profaneness_n of_o the_o people_n to_o the_o want_n of_o it_o or_o of_o some_o part_n of_o it_o whereby_o church_n governor_n may_v be_v enable_v to_o put_v a_o difference_n betwixt_o the_o holy_a and_o the_o profane_a the_o unclean_a and_o the_o clean_a ezek._n 22.26_o for_o the_o rod_n of_o discipline_n 1_o cor._n 4.21_o may_v have_v a_o salutary_a operation_n in_o the_o church_n as_o the_o rod_n of_o correction_n in_o the_o family_n prov._n 23.13_o 14._o 2._o he_o make_v a_o comparison_n betwixt_o a_o material_a and_o a_o spiritual_a build_n 11._o see_v §_o 11._o as_o in_o the_o material_a build_n stone_n and_o timber_n be_v not_o to_o be_v clap_v together_o without_o hew_v and_o square_n so_o not_o in_o the_o spiritual_a of_o which_o word_n if_o i_o right_o understand_v they_o the_o meaning_n be_v that_o church_n must_v be_v gather_v and_o make_v up_o only_o of_o holy_a reform_a christian_n which_o be_v as_o hew_v or_o square_a stone_n to_o which_o i_o answer_v 1._o that_o similitude_n may_v illustrate_v a_o truth_n
confute_v in_o other_o particular_n and_o i_o be_o willing_a to_o take_v notice_n of_o they_o rather_o from_o he_o then_o from_o mr._n pr._n though_o i_o have_v read_v they_o in_o his_o book_n for_o divers_a reason_n 1._o because_o mr._n p._n be_v a_o friend_n to_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n have_v both_o 56._o both_o m._n prinne_n his_o vindication_n p._n 56._o plead_v for_o it_o and_o be_v persecute_v as_o he_o say_v by_o sectary_n and_o independent_o for_o his_o good_a will_n unto_o it_o 2._o because_o he_o 2._o he_o so_o in_o the_o epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n before_o his_o vindicat._n fol._n 2._o p._n 2._o profess_v to_o love_v and_o honour_n with_o his_o soul_n the_o assembly_n of_o divine_n and_o have_v in_o a_o book_n of_o purpose_n vindicate_v they_o from_o libellous_a aspersion_n of_o the_o antipresbyterian_o i_o confess_v mr._n saltm_n be_v once_o so_o reverent_o and_o religious_o conceit_v of_o they_o that_o he_o honour_v they_o in_o print_n with_o the_o title_n of_o a_o most_o sacred_a assembly_n in_o a_o d._n a_o m._n salem_n his_o dedication_n of_o the_o examination_n or_o the_o discovery_n of_o some_o dangerous_a position_n deliver_v in_o a_o sermon_n of_o reformation_n in_o the_o church_n of_o the_o savoy_n on_o the_o fast_a day_n july_n 26._o 1643._o by_o tho._n fuller_n b._n d._n dedication_n of_o a_o little_a book_n unto_o they_o some_o of_o who_o my_o self_n for_o one_o desire_v he_o to_o forbear_v that_o title_n in_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o copy_n which_o be_v not_o then_o wrought_v off_o from_o the_o pres●e_n but_o be_v so_o far_o engage_v against_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n as_o now_o he_o be_v i_o can_v think_v he_o have_v so_o good_a either_o opinion_n of_o or_o affection_n to_o the_o assembly_n as_o former_o he_o have_v profess_v unto_o they_o and_o towards_o they_o 3._o because_o i_o be_o confident_a that_o whatsoever_o mr._n p._n write_v though_o i_o approve_v not_o all_o that_o be_v set_v out_o in_o his_o name_n he_o write_v with_o a_o very_a upright_a and_o sincere_a heart_n without_o any_o sinister_a end_n or_o aim_v at_o gain_n to_o himself_o or_o glory_n with_o man_n 4._o because_o i_o have_v find_v he_o so_o kind_a to_o i_o in_o several_a kind_n that_o i_o be_o loath_a to_o take_v he_o for_o a_o adversary_n in_o any_o public_a contestation_n and_o yet_o i_o shall_v take_v the_o boldness_n as_o just_a occasion_n shall_v induce_v i_o to_o use_v the_o freedom_n of_o a_o friend_n unto_o he_o and_o to_o be_v true_a to_o the_o truth_n without_o partial_a respect_n to_o friend_n or_o foe_n 5._o because_o mr._n pr._n do_v not_o write_v what_o mr._n saltm_n allege_v out_o of_o he_o against_o expedition_n in_o the_o set_n up_o of_o presbyterial_a government_n much_o less_o final_o to_o suppress_v it_o which_o seem_v to_o be_v the_o desire_n and_o endeavour_v of_o mr._n salt●●_n sect_n xiiii_o the_o objection_n take_v from_o a_o suppose_a needlesnesse_n of_o the_o presbytery_n answer_v that_o which_o he_o produce_v against_o the_o presbytery_n in_o mr._n prinnes_n name_n consist_v chief_o of_o two_o particular_n 1._o that_o there_o be_v no_o necessity_n of_o it_o that_o it_o shall_v be_v establish_v 2._o the_o want_n of_o efficacy_n in_o it_o where_o it_o be_v establish_v for_o the_o first_o he_o produce_v a_o remarkable_a passage_n as_o he_o call_v it_o out_o of_o mr._n prinnes_n vindication_n in_o these_o word_n and_o if_o our_o assembly_n and_o minister_n will_v but_o diligent_o preach_v against_o that_o catalogue_n of_o scandalous_a sin_n and_o sinner_n they_o have_v present_v to_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o parliament_n prescribe_v severe_a tem_n porall_a law_n and_o punishment_n against_o they_o and_o appoint_v good_a civil_a magistrate_n to_o see_v they_o due_o execute_v and_o inflict_v i_o be_o confident_a that_o this_o will_v work_v a_o great_a reformation_n in_o our_o church_n and_o state_n in_o one_o half_a year_n than_o all_o the_o church_n discipline_n and_o consure_n now_o so_o eager_o contest_v for_o will_v do_v in_o a_o age_n and_o will_v be_v the_o only_a true_a way_n and_o speedy_a course_n to_o reform_v both_o church_n and_o state_n at_o once_o which_o i_o hope_v the_o parliament_n will_v consider_v of_o and_o take_v care_n that_o our_o minister_n like_o the_o bishop_n former_o may_v not_o now_o be_v take_v up_o with_o rule_v and_o govern_v but_o preach_v and_o instruct_v which_o be_v work_n enough_o whole_o to_o engross_v their_o time_n and_o thought_n answer_n this_o say_n of_o mr._n p._n i_o see_v begin_v to_o be_v have_v in_o honour_n by_o out_o independent_a brethren_n for_o it_o be_v the_o alpha_n of_o mr._n s.e._n and_o mr._n t.t._n their_o defence_n of_o position_n it_o be_v as_o the_o omega_n of_o mr._n s._n his_o answer_n to_o mr._n prins_n vindication_n and_o i_o wish_v the_o author_n of_o it_o may_v have_v so_o much_o of_o it_o from_o the_o better_a sort_n of_o they_o as_o may_v make_v he_o some_o amends_o for_o the_o contumely_n and_o calumny_n he_o have_v suffer_v from_o the_o worse_o and_o if_o mr._n p._n his_o testimony_n be_v so_o authentic_a with_o they_o but_o with_o most_o of_o they_o i_o know_v it_o be_v not_o it_o may_v not_o be_v amiss_o to_o mind_v they_o not_o of_o a_o piece_n of_o a_o lease_n but_o of_o whole_a etc._n whole_a independency_n examine_v unmask_v refute_v by_o 12._o new_a particular_a interrogatory_n detect_v both_o the_o manifold_a absurdity_n inconvenience_n that_o must_v necessary_o attend_v it_o to_o the_o great_a disturbance_n of_o church_n state_n the_o diminution_n subversion_n of_o the_o lawful_a undoubted_a power_n of_o all_o christian_a magistrate_n parliament_n synod_n and_o thake_v the_o chief_a pillar_n wherewith_o its_o patron_n will_v support_v it_o and_o a_o fresh_a discovery_n of_o some_o prodigious_a new_a wandering-blazing_a star_n and_o firebrand_n etc._n etc._n book_n of_o his_o make_n against_o their_o way_n the_o word_n forecited_a contain_v three_o thing_n 1._o a_o remedy_n against_o scandalous_a sin_n and_o the_o sufficiency_n of_o that_o remedy_n without_o church-discipline_n and_o censure_n so_o eager_o contend_v for_o 2._o a_o hope_n that_o the_o parliament_n will_v consider_v of_o and_o take_v care_v that_o minister_n may_v not_o like_a bishop_n former_o be_v take_v up_o with_o rule_v and_o govern_v 3._o a_o reason_n of_o that_o hope_n because_o preach_v and_o instruct_v be_v work_n enough_o to_o engross_v their_o time_n and_o thought_n 1._o for_o the_o first_o the_o remedy_n prescribe_v against_o scandalous_a sin_n if_o our_o assembly_n and_o minister_n will_v but_o diligent_o preach_v against_o that_o catalogue_n of_o scandalous_a sin_n they_o have_v present_v to_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o parliament_n prescribe_v severe_a temporal_a law_n and_o punishment_n against_o they_o and_o appoint_v good_a civil_a magistrate_n to_o see_v they_o due_o execute_v and_o inflict_v answer_n here_o be_v less_o require_v of_o the_o minister_n then_o be_v perform_v by_o many_o of_o they_o more_o promise_v concern_v law_n punishment_n and_o magistrate_n then_o without_o presumption_n can_v be_v expect_v by_o any_o for_o 1._o for_o the_o minister_n they_o preach_v against_o those_o scandalous_a sin_n contain_v in_o the_o catalogue_n and_o more_o too_o and_o undertake_v to_o add_v many_o more_o to_o the_o catalogue_n then_o be_v express_v and_o the_o honourable_a house_n of_o commons_o have_v send_v a_o order_n to_o the_o assembly_n of_o divine_n to_o that_o purpose_n and_o when_o a_o supplement_n be_v make_v in_o obedience_n thereto_o there_o will_v be_v yet_o more_o find_v out_o not_o mention_v before_o so_o that_o there_o will_v be_v still_o new_a matter_n for_o addition_n unless_o there_o be_v a_o reserve_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d of_o remain_v particular_n to_o be_v add_v when_o they_o be_v discover_v and_o some_o cautionary_a order_n make_v that_o the_o minister_n may_v not_o be_v put_v upon_o this_o hard_a dilemma_n either_o to_o administer_v to_o any_o against_o his_o judgement_n and_o conscience_n or_o to_o suspend_v his_o own_o act_n of_o administration_n with_o hazard_n to_o himself_o either_o for_o his_o person_n or_o estate_n which_o will_v be_v a_o great_a inconvenience_n than_o any_o worthy_a communicant_a can_v suffer_v if_o he_o be_v upon_o the_o minister_n mistake_v unworthy_o deny_v his_o right_n to_o god_n ordinance_n for_o one_o turn_v only_o for_o before_o the_o next_o celebration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n that_o which_o be_v doubtful_a before_o may_v be_v full_o clear_v and_o of_o this_o difference_n there_o be_v two_o reason_n 1._o if_o the_o party_n come_v worthy_o prepare_v and_o be_v refuse_v he_o may_v have_v his_o part_n in_o the_o benefit_n of_o the_o sacrament_n as_o if_o he_o have_v actual_o receive_v for_o in_o such_o a_o case_n god_n accept_v the_o will_n for_o the_o deed_n