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A30189 An answer to two treatises of Mr. Iohn Can, the leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam the former called, A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, proved by the Nonconformists principles : the other, A stay against straying : wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson, he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the ministers of the Church of England ... / by the late learned, laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ, John Ball. Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662. 1642 (1642) Wing B558; ESTC R3127 281,779 264

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do_v 93_o ca_fw-mi 24_o &_o do_v 95_o can_v 5._o gratian_n par_fw-fr 2_o c_o 9_o cue_n 2_o c._n lugdunens_n calvin_n justit_fw-la l_o 4_o c_o 2_o s_z 11._o chamier_n panstr_n tom_n 2_o l_o 16_o cap._n 4_o s._n 9_o jun_n animad_fw-la in_o bel_n de_fw-fr cleric_a c_o 14_o not_o 2_o &c_n &c_n 3_o not_o 59_o chamier_n ibid_fw-la c._n 6_o s_o 11._o sed_fw-la catholici_fw-la negaut_fw-fr consquentian_n &_o sciunt_fw-la posse_fw-la illa_fw-la omne_fw-la extare_fw-la in_o media_fw-la haeresi_fw-la &_o inter_fw-la apostatas_fw-la quod_fw-la si_fw-la nostri_fw-la negari_fw-la incipient_fw-la apostatae_fw-la cur_n fararius_n cur_n ejus_fw-la maecenas_n jacobus_n davius_fw-la nunc_fw-la cardinalis_fw-la non_fw-la renunciarunt_fw-la baptismo_fw-la apud_fw-la nos_fw-la quos_fw-la ille_fw-la disputat_fw-la apostasiam_fw-la fecisse_fw-la recepto_fw-la &_o non_fw-la jusserunt_fw-la se_fw-la denuo_fw-la thing_n author_n imperfect_a oper_n in_o mat._n hom_n 49._o omnia_fw-la hae_n quae_fw-la sunt_fw-la 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svo_fw-la officio_fw-la non_fw-la contentum_fw-la sed_fw-la cupicus_fw-la prae_fw-la ripere_fw-la alienum_fw-la conturbat_fw-la corporis_fw-la ordinem_fw-la totum_fw-la etc._n etc._n sic_fw-la singulorum_fw-la ornamenta_fw-la non_fw-la sunt_fw-la alijs_fw-la congrua_fw-la sed_fw-la unumquodque_fw-la requirit_fw-la sva_fw-la &_o abijcit_fw-la aliena_fw-la gratian._n do_v 89_o cap._n 1._o they_o that_o hold_v the_o office_n of_o bishop_n to_o be_v of_o god_n do_v hold_v that_o the_o church_n cease_v not_o to_o be_v a_o church_n in_o which_o this_o degree_n be_v not_o to_o be_v find_v that_o never_o have_v the_o ordination_n of_o a_o presbyter_n can_v neither_o consecrate_v and_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n nor_o ordain_v a_o presbyter_n himself_o be_v none_o nor_o do_v any_o act_n peculiar_o appertain_v to_o presbyter_n ordination_n therefore_o be_v reserve_v to_o the_o bishop_n not_o in_o respect_n of_o superiority_n in_o degree_n of_o ministry_n above_o his_o brethren_n for_o if_o he_o be_v no_o presbyter_n he_o can_v make_v presbyter_n but_o for_o order_n sake_n and_o to_o prevent_v schism_n and_o division_n be_v for_o substance_n of_o the_o same_o order_n and_o consecration_n with_o they_o if_o one_o member_n in_o the_o body_n challenge_v to_o itself_o that_o office_n which_o belong_v to_o many_o it_o breed_v some_o disorder_n and_o confusion_n but_o make_v not_o a_o nullity_n of_o that_o which_o be_v do_v succession_n in_o the_o apostle_n doctrine_n be_v a_o essential_a and_o unchangeable_a note_n of_o the_o church_n which_o wheresoever_o it_o be_v find_v do_v argue_v truth_n of_o ministry_n in_o that_o society_n for_o the_o preach_a of_o the_o word_n and_o administration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n to_o draw_v man_n to_o internal_a communion_n for_o that_o particular_a church_n be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n which_o retain_v unity_n with_o the_o catholic_n sc_n the_o unity_n of_o the_o head_n the_o unity_n of_o the_o body_n the_o unity_n of_o doctrine_n and_o unity_n of_o the_o spirit_n etc._n johan._n major_n l._n 2._o hist_o the_o gest_n scotor_n cap._n 2._o scribit_fw-la scotos_fw-gr per_fw-la sacerdotes_fw-la &_o monachos_fw-la sine_fw-la episcopis_fw-la in_o fide_fw-la eruditos_fw-la esse_fw-la usque_fw-la ad_fw-la an._n dom._n 429._o adeo_fw-la ut_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la scotitae_fw-la plusquam_fw-la 230_o annos_fw-la floruerit_fw-la absque_fw-la regimine_fw-la episcopali_fw-la nam_fw-la religionem_fw-la christianam_fw-la suscepit_fw-la scotiae_fw-la an._n dom._n 203._o ficu●_fw-la consentiunt_fw-la historic●_n omnes_fw-la ames_n bel_n enerv_v tom_n 2._o de_fw-fr eccles_n forb_n iren._n lib_n 2._o cap._n 11_o prop._n 10._o bilson_n perpetual_a church_n government_n epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n i_o have_v always_o have_v before_o my_o eye_n the_o most_o of_o they_o be_v brethren_n for_o the_o truth_n sake_n &c_n &c_n a._n w._n answer_v to_o late_o popish_a article_n page_n 73._o jun_n animadv_o in_o bel_n count_v 5_o l._n 1._o cap._n 3._o the_o right_a and_o power_n of_o give_v ordination_n to_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n belong_v primary_o &_o whole_o to_o christ_n who_o communicate_v the_o same_o with_o his_o bride_n the_o church_n both_o the_o bridegroom_n for_o his_o part_n and_o the_o bride_n for_o her_o part_n have_v deliver_v this_o power_n of_o ordination_n to_o the_o presbytery_n jure_fw-la divino_fw-la afterward_o the_o presbytery_n confer_v jure_fw-la humano_fw-la this_o power_n upon_o they_o who_o be_v special_o call_v bishop_n etc._n etc._n aerius_n be_v call_v a_o heretic_n in_o the_o time_n of_o epiphanius_n not_o for_o his_o opinion_n but_o for_o his_o separation_n which_o he_o make_v together_o with_o it_o for_o so_o the_o father_n of_o the_o first_o constantinopolitan_a council_n can._n 6._o which_o in_o the_o book_n of_o canon_n be_v 169._o haereticos_fw-la autem_fw-la dicimus_fw-la eos_fw-la qui_fw-la olim_fw-la ab_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la abdicati_fw-la sunt_fw-la &_o qui_fw-la postea_fw-la a_o nobis_fw-la anathemati_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d praeter_fw-la hos_fw-la autem_fw-la &_o qui_fw-la se_fw-la sanam_fw-la quidem_fw-la fidem_fw-la profiteri_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d subassumunt_fw-la segregaverunt_fw-la autem_fw-la sese_fw-la &_o
repl_a 1._o pag._n 41._o ambr_n de_fw-fr offic_n lib._n 1._o cap._n 50_o grat_n do_v 93._o cap._n 21._o exit_fw-la quo_fw-la i●_n ecclesis_n sicut_fw-la in_o imperio_fw-la romano_n crevit_fw-la avaritia_fw-la perit_fw-la iex_fw-la de_fw-la sacerdote_fw-la &_o visia_n de_fw-fr prpheta_n bas_n in_o asceticis_fw-la chry._n desacer_fw-la complaint_n have_v be_v make_v against_o abuse_n of_o this_o nature_n by_o all_o sort_n ancient_a and_o modern_a who_o never_o deny_v the_o church_n where_o the_o true_a faith_n be_v profess_v to_o be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n cyprian_n complain_v thus_o here_o i_o be_o grievous_o trouble_v that_o the_o church_n have_v many_o pastor_n who_o not_o only_o do_v not_o oppose_v their_o body_n against_o the_o incursion_n of_o wolf_n but_o also_o they_o themselves_o do_v play_v the_o part_n of_o wolf_n while_o they_o destroy_v the_o soul_n of_o the_o simple_a they_o themselves_o serve_v their_o belly_n gain_n and_o ambition_n and_o make_v merchandise_n of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o adulterate_a it_o with_o ungodly_a opinion_n the_o counsel_n of_o nic●_n make_v complaint_n that_o many_o thing_n in_o the_o admission_n of_o presbyter_n and_o bishop_n be_v do_v contrary_a to_o the_o rule_n leo_n that_o the_o office_n of_o a_o pastor_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n be_v commit_v to_o man_n altogether_o unworthy_a hierom_n reproach_v the_o bishop_n of_o jerusalem_n that_o he_o can_v as_o himself_o boast_v make_v in_o one_o hour_n a_o thousand_o clark_n and_o condemn_v it_o in_o other_o that_o clerk_n run_v to_o the_o bishop_n suffragans_n certain_a time_n of_o the_o year_n and_o bring_v some_o sum_n of_o money_n they_o be_v ordain_v be_v choose_v of_o none_o ambrose_n show_v the_o abuse_n in_o his_o time_n to_o be_v this_o if_o a_o man_n ask_v some_o of_o they_o who_o prefer_v they_o to_o be_v priest_n answer_n be_v make_v by_o and_o by_o that_o the_o archbishop_n for_o a_o hundred_o shilling_n ordain_v i_o bishop_n nazianzon_n in_o apolog_n that_o they_o which_o handle_v holy_a thing_n with_o unwashen_n hand_n and_o pollute_a soul_n be_v more_o in_o number_n than_o they_o over_o who_o they_o rule_v miseri_fw-la in_o ●iotate_n miseri_fw-la in_o splendore_fw-la and_o ad_fw-la maximum_fw-la ad_fw-la pastoralis_fw-la muneris_fw-la administrationem_fw-la nihil_fw-la contulerunt_fw-la vi_o 〈◊〉_d quod_fw-la comam_fw-la quam_fw-la turpiter_fw-la alere_fw-la studuerunt_fw-la raserunt_fw-la and_o in_o the_o same_o place_n de_fw-fr pecumiis_fw-la jam_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la bellum_fw-la geritus_fw-la when_o basil_n of_o a_o heathen_a be_v make_v a_o christian_a he_o say_v that_o he_o do_v great_o wonder_v at_o the_o dissension_n which_o be_v in_o the_o church_n concern_v faith_n and_o the_o contention_n of_o the_o governor_n because_o every_o one_o leave_v the_o doctrine_n of_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n do_v challenge_v to_o himself_o by_o his_o own_o authority_n certain_a rule_n and_o order_n also_o i_o perceive_v dissension_n to_o arise_v from_o hence_o because_o there_o be_v no_o discipline_n no_o knowledge_n of_o god_n or_o it_o be_v perverse_a if_o any_o chrysostome_n neque_fw-la immeritos_fw-la solum_fw-la adleg●_n sed_fw-la &_o idone_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d the_o toledan_a counsel_n complain_v that_o for_o eighteen_o year_n no_o synod_n be_v hold_v whence_o come_v gross_a ignorance_n and_o corruption_n of_o the_o minister_n it_o will_v be_v too_o long_o to_o set_v down_o at_o large_a the_o grave_n sharp_a and_o lamentable_a complaint_n that_o nicholas_n de_fw-fr clemang_n petrus_n de_fw-it aliaco_fw-it life_n see_v nichol._n clemang_n speculum_fw-la eccles_n petrus_n de_fw-fr aliaco_n reformat_fw-la eccle._n bern._n in_o conu._n s._n p._n ser_n 1._o heu_fw-la heu_fw-la domine_fw-la deus_fw-la ipsi_fw-la sunt_fw-la in_o persecutione_n tua_fw-la primi_fw-la qui_fw-la videatur_fw-la in_o eccl_n siam_fw-it tua_fw-la primatum_fw-la genere_fw-la id._n in_o cant._n ser_n 76._o parum_fw-la est_fw-la nostris_fw-la vigilibus_fw-la quod_fw-la non_fw-la servant_n nisi_fw-la &_o perdant_fw-la gildas_n see_v vsser_fw-fr de_fw-fr primord_v eccles_n br●●_n h●oper_n on_o the_o 8_o command_n pag._n 74_o 79._o whitaker_n de_fw-fr pont_n rom._n presat_fw-la ad_fw-la audito_fw-la res_fw-la in_o sch_fw-mi smatis_fw-la remedium_fw-la hoc_fw-la primo_fw-la inven●um_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la ipso_fw-la morbo_fw-la magis_fw-la pericudesum_fw-la fuisse_fw-la molti_fw-la virt_n sancti_fw-la &_o prudentes_fw-la judicarunt_fw-la quod_fw-la quamquam_fw-la non_fw-la statim_fw-la apparuit_fw-la tamen_fw-la miserable_fw-la experientia_fw-la demceps_fw-la demonstravit_fw-la tum_o enim_fw-la ambitio_fw-la irepsit_fw-la in_o ecclesiam_fw-la &_o episcopi_fw-la caeperunt_fw-la non_fw-la minus_fw-la de_fw-fr dignitate_fw-la suarum_fw-la sedium_fw-la quam_fw-la de_fw-la christi_fw-la grege_fw-la cogitare_fw-la etc._n etc._n gregor_n nazianz._n orat_fw-la 2._o pag_n 399._o they_o intrude_v themselves_o unto_o the_o most_o holy_a ministery_n with_o unwashen_n hand_n and_o mind_n as_o they_o say_v and_o before_o they_o be_v worthy_a to_o come_v unto_o the_o sacrament_n they_o affect_v the_o sanctuary_n itself_o &_o circum_fw-la sacrasanctam_fw-la mensam_fw-la premuntur_fw-la &_o protenduntur_fw-la esteem_v this_o order_n not_o a_o example_n of_o virtue_n but_o a_o maintenance_n and_o help_n of_o life_n bernard_n and_o our_o gildas_n have_v publish_v against_o the_o ecclesiastical_a governor_n of_o their_o time_n for_o their_o ignorance_n pride_n luxury_n riot_n drunkenness_n persecution_n of_o all_o true_a godliness_n covetousness_n rapine_n contention_n brawl_n simony_n and_o what_o not_o and_o since_o the_o time_n of_o reformation_n not_o the_o inconformists_n only_o but_o the_o godly_a bishop_n and_o martyr_n themselves_o have_v observe_v bewail_v and_o reprove_v these_o abuse_n father_n latimer_n in_o his_o sermon_n general_o but_o in_o his_o sermon_n of_o the_o plough_n be_v plain_a and_o large_a against_o the_o pomp_n and_o idleness_n of_o bishop_n who_o lord_n it_o over_o but_o feed_v not_o the_o flock_n of_o christ_n muzzle_v the_o people_n in_o ignorance_n and_o profaneness_n live_v riotous_o hunt_v after_o preferment_n but_o seek_v not_o the_o win_n of_o soul_n unto_o god_n bishop_n hooper_n complain_v say_v it_o be_v great_a pity_n to_o see_v how_o far_o that_o office_n of_o a_o bishop_n be_v degenerate_v from_o the_o original_n in_o the_o scripture_n it_o be_v not_o so_o at_o the_o beginning_n when_o bishop_n be_v at_o the_o best_a as_o the_o epist_n of_o paul_n to_o titus_n testify_v that_o will_v he_o to_o ordain_v in_o every_o city_n of_o crete_n a_o bishop_n and_o as_o sharp_o and_o close_o he_o censure_v the_o bishop_n of_o his_o day_n for_o arrogate_a to_o themselves_o so_o much_o wit_n as_o to_o rule_v and_o serve_v in_o both_o state_n in_o the_o church_n and_o in_o the_o civil_a policy_n and_o to_o the_o contrary_a profess_v that_o one_o of_o they_o be_v more_o than_o any_o man_n be_v able_a to_o satisfy_v and_o that_o it_o be_v not_o possible_a that_o one_o shall_v do_v both_o well_o and_o that_o it_o be_v a_o great_a oversight_n of_o the_o prince_n and_o high_a power_n of_o the_o earth_n so_o to_o charge_v they_o with_o two_o burden_n when_o none_o of_o they_o as_o he_o say_v be_v able_a to_o bear_v the_o least_o of_o they_o both_o the_o accusation_n which_o be_v bring_v against_o both_o the_o minister_n and_o member_n in_o the_o separatist_n congregation_n be_v not_o few_o nor_o light_n nor_o such_o as_o can_v be_v wipe_v away_o with_o reproach_n all_o these_o have_v bear_v witness_n of_o the_o great_a disorder_n and_o corruption_n which_o have_v be_v in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n but_o they_o never_o deem_v the_o society_n be_v to_o be_v abandon_v because_o of_o these_o great_a and_o erroneous_a blemish_n rather_o they_o seek_v the_o redress_n and_o reformation_n of_o what_o be_v amiss_o if_o some_o thing_n of_o man_n be_v mix_v with_o that_o which_o be_v of_o god_n as_o humane_a superiority_n with_o divine_a ministry_n the_o pure_a wheat_n with_o some_o chasse_n the_o holy_a sacrament_n with_o rite_n savour_v of_o superstition_n a_o find_a christian_n be_v not_o to_o cast_v away_o what_o be_v of_o god_n as_o a_o nullity_n fruitless_a defile_v antichristian_a idolatrous_a because_o somewhat_o humane_a be_v annex_v unto_o they_o nor_o in_o defence_n of_o the_o good_a to_o be_v charge_v or_o condemn_v as_o go_v cross_a to_o that_o which_o he_o teach_v against_o the_o evil_a accedat_fw-la aug._n the_o fid_fw-we &_o bon_fw-fr oper_n tom_fw-mi 4.4_o nos_fw-la vero_fw-la ad_fw-la piam_fw-la doctrinam_fw-la pertinere_fw-la arbitramur_fw-la ut_fw-la &_o cane_n in_o ecclesia_fw-la propter_fw-la pacem_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la toleremus_fw-la jun._n animad_fw-la in_o bell._n contr_n 5._o l._n 1_o ca._n 3._o l._n 1._o ca._n 3._o not_o 24._o speak_v of_o popish_a ordination_n say_v a_o part_n ad_fw-la totum_fw-la non_fw-la procedit_fw-la argumentatio_fw-la in_o ordinatione_fw-la aliquid_fw-la nihil_fw-la fac●unt_fw-la ergo_fw-la nihili_fw-la faciunt_fw-la ordinationem_fw-la quod_fw-la dei_fw-la quod_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la in_o ea_fw-la est_fw-la permagni_fw-la facimus_fw-la quod_fw