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friend_n answer_v king_n lord_n 916 5 3.9995 3 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A19164 The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut 1631 (1631) STC 5576; ESTC S117323 60,660 174

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this_o reason_n i_o remit_v this_o divine_a to_o a_o great_a friend_n of_o my_o lord_n bishop_n who_o be_v wont_a to_o allege_v his_o favour_n to_o my_o lord_n bishop_n for_o a_o reason_n of_o the_o king_n displeasure_n towards_o he_o i_o may_v for_o answer_v also_o allege_v the_o proclamation_n &_o much_o and_o continual_a search_v for_o he_o which_o have_v bring_v so_o great_a vexation_n upon_o catholic_n and_o upon_o many_o priest_n take_v by_o his_o occasion_n but_o that_o i_o list_v not_o much_o to_o meddle_v in_o such_o a_o matter_n as_o this_o only_o this_o i_o may_v tell_v the_o divine_a that_o my_o lord_n bishop_n himself_o as_o i_o have_v be_v credible_o inform_v take_v notice_n and_o exception_n to_o the_o speach_n of_o some_o catholic_n of_o worth_n who_o speak_v feel_o of_o what_o they_o suffer_v by_o his_o occasion_n and_o wish_v he_o will_v for_o avoid_v their_o trouble_n withdraw_v himself_o which_o show_v that_o catholic_n find_v the_o contrary_a of_o what_o this_o 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bishop_n they_o see_v it_o be_v a_o needle_n thing_n to_o mention_v it_o be_v a_o know_a point_n of_o christian_a duty_n not_o to_o hear_v any_o man_n ill_o speak_v of_o much_o less_o a_o bishop_n if_o they_o shall_v chance_v to_o meet_v with_o any_o such_o discourse_n which_o they_o never_o do_v they_o and_o their_o friend_n abhor_v such_o way_n of_o proceed_v the_o second_o proof_n of_o passion_n be_v because_o the_o bishop_n offer_v further_a satisfaction_n concern_v his_o authority_n to_o any_o man_n that_o will_v ask_v it_o these_o gentleman_n do_v not_o ask_v it_o it_o be_v true_a indeed_o have_v see_v my_o lord_n bishop_n public_a claim_n of_o that_o authority_n it_o be_v no_o time_n for_o they_o to_o go_v and_o ask_v a_o private_a gloss_n or_o declaration_n which_o will_v little_o avail_v they_o when_o such_o a_o letter_n shall_v be_v bring_v against_o they_o but_o let_v this_o divine_a ask_v my_o l._n bishop_n whether_o he_o be_v never_o desire_v to_o make_v it_o know_v what_o authority_n he_o have_v i_o be_o sure_a his_o lordship_n will_v not_o deny_v but_o he_o be_v many_o time_n but_o he_o never_o will_v till_o he_o declare_v it_o in_o this_o public_a manner_n if_o my_o lord_n then_o mean_v to_o give_v they_o sufficient_a satisfaction_n in_o private_a why_o do_v he_o not_o do_v it_o in_o private_a while_o man_n do_v desire_v it_o and_o while_o there_o be_v time_n beside_o suppose_v my_o lord_n will_v have_v write_v a_o letter_n he_o may_v have_v forbear_v to_o speak_v so_o plain_o of_o his_o ordinaryship_n only_o invite_v those_o that_o desire_v to_o know_v his_o authority_n to_o come_v private_o unto_o he_o and_o for_o that_o which_o this_o divine_a say_v that_o my_o lord_n can_v not_o inform_v they_o sufficient_o of_o his_o authority_n in_o so_o short_a a_o letter_n i_o see_v not_o what_o reason_n there_o be_v for_o it_o i_o dare_v say_v his_o letter_n be_v 5._o time_n at_o least_o as_o long_o as_o his_o patent_n or_o breve_fw-la and_o instruction_n the_o sight_n whereof_o will_v have_v serve_v the_o turn_n without_o all_o this_o writing_n &_o do_v which_o be_v so_o easy_a a_o matter_n &_o th●t_o yet_o his_o lordship_n will_v not_o do_v it_o they_o may_v well_o despair_v of_o further_a satisfaction_n the_o three_o proof_n of_o passion_n be_v that_o as_o this_o divine_a say_v this_o letter_n stretch_v my_o lord_n bishop_n word_n upon_o the_o tenterhooks_n or_o rather_o add_v unto_o they_o in_o say_v that_o the_o particular_a passage_n cite_v and_o the_o whole_a scope_n of_o the_o second_o part_n of_o the_o letter_n argue_v his_o lordship_n to_o assume_v his_o authority_n over_o the_o lay_a catholic_n to_o be_v as_o great_a in_o england_n and_o scotland_n as_o any_o ordinary_a exercise_v here_o in_o england_n in_o catholic_a time_n whereas_o my_o lord_n bishop_n never_o speak_v of_o authority_n over_o lay_a catholic_n in_o scotland_n but_o only_o to_o prove_v himself_o ordinary_a bring_v the_o inscription_n of_o letter_n from_o some_o cardinal_n thus_o ordinario_fw-la angliae_fw-la &_o scotiae_fw-la in_o which_o the_o divine_a complain_v of_o two_o addition_n the_o one_o that_o the_o letter_n say_v my_o lord_n challenge_v authority_n over_o the_o laity_n of_o scotland_n the_o other_o that_o it_o say_v my_o lord_n challenge_v as_o much_o authority_n here_o in_o england_n as_o ordinary_n have_v have_v in_o catholic_a time_n but_o first_o the_o letter_n neither_o stretch_v nor_o add_v to_o my_o lord_n word_n but_o only_o make_v a_o manifest_a and_o immediate_a inference_n upon_o or_o out_o of_o they_o for_o it_o say_v his_o lordship_n word_n argue_v he_o to_o assume_v etc._n etc._n which_o plain_o show_v that_o they_o do_v not_o charge_v his_o lordship_n with_o say_v so_o in_o express_a term_n but_o say_v that_o out_o of_o which_o as_o antecedent_n the_o conclusion_n be_v manifest_o gather_v now_o there_o be_v great_a difference_n between_o a_o inference_n and_o a_o addition_n as_o every_o body_n know_v second_o if_o the_o divine_a will_v have_v answer_v and_o not_o cavel_v he_o shall_v have_v show_v the_o conclusion_n not_o to_o be_v well_o &_o true_o deduce_v out_o of_o his_o lordship_n antecedent_n &_o then_o he_o have_v say_v somewhat_o to_o the_o purpose_n but_o that_o he_o can_v do_v for_o if_o my_o l._n bishop_n out_o of_o the_o inscription_n ordinario_fw-la angliae_fw-la do_v prove_v himself_o ordinary_a &_o out_o of_o this_o infer_v himself_o to_o have_v authority_n over_o lay_n catholik_o of_o england_n why_o may_v he_o not_o do_v the_o like_a of_o the_o word_n ordinario_fw-la scotiae_fw-la which_o title_n his_o lordship_n use_v continual_o and_o joint_o with_o the_o word_n angliae_fw-la thus_o ordinarius_fw-la angliae_fw-la &_o scotiae_fw-la three_o his_o lordship_n patent_n make_v no_o difference_n between_o the_o faithful_a of_o england_n and_o scotland_n wherefore_o if_o he_o challenge_v authority_n over_o the_o one_o he_o may_v do_v it_o over_o the_o other_o for_o the_o other_o addition_n as_o this_o divine_a say_v or_o inference_n as_o in_o truth_n it_o be_v of_o assume_v the_o same_o authority_n which_o ordinary_n have_v exercise_v here_o in_o catholic_a time_n what_o can_v the_o divine_a say_v to_o it_o be_v it_o not_o true_o and_o evident_o infer_v my_o lord_n bishop_n say_v the_o pope_n make_v he_o as_o absolute_a ordinary_n in_o england_n as_o other_o ordinary_n in_o their_o diocese_n and_o this_o divine_a acknowledge_v he_o to_o have_v as_o much_o as_o any_o ordinary_n have_v or_o can_v have_v in_o his_o diocese_n but_o our_o ordinary_n here_o in_o catholic_a time_n be_v no_o more_o but_o as_o other_o ordinary_n in_o their_o diocese_n nor_o have_v more_o than_o any_o ordinary_n have_v or_o may_v have_v in_o his_o diocese_n ergo_fw-la my_o lord_n bishop_n suppose_v these_o his_o lordship_n premise_n have_v the_o same_o authority_n that_o catholic_a ordinary_n have_v have_v here_o in_o england_n in_o catholic_a time_n or_o by_o the_o challenge_v that_o authority_n of_o other_o ordinary_n or_o what_o they_o have_v or_o may_v have_v he_o challenge_v the_o same_o that_o ordinary_n have_v have_v in_o catholic_a time_n what_o fault_n be_v there_o in_o this_o argument_n why_o then_o do_v this_o devine●ryfle_n ●ryfle_z thus_o as_o if_o these_o two_o be_v not_o all_o one_o the_o authority_n which_o a_o ordinary_a have_v or_o may_v have_v in_o his_o diocese_n and_o which_o a_o ordinary_a have_v in_o time_n pass_v here_o in_o england_n have_v our_o bishop_n more_o here_o than_o a_o ordinary_n may_v have_v elsewhere_o do_v he_o perhaps_o think_v that_o no_o man_n will_v ever_o vouchsafe_v to_o answer_v or_o perhaps_o read_v this_o paper_n where_o be_v now_o the_o passion_n in_o stretch_v and_o add_v of_o word_n but_o because_o it_o may_v moreover_o appear_v that_o this_o inference_n of_o the_o authority_n which_o ordinary_n have_v heretofore_o do_v not_o proceed_v from_o passion_n i_o will_v add_v a_o reason_n why_o mention_n be_v make_v of_o our_o ordinary_n of_o former_a time_n in_o england_n which_o be_v this_o that_o they_o who_o write_v the_o letter_n come_v better_a to_o be_v acquaint_v with_o what_o belong_v to_o the_o authority_n of_o ordinary_a and_o how_o far_o it_o extend_v itself_o by_o that_o which_o ordinary_n be_v wont_a to_o do_v here_o in_o england_n and_o which_o for_o the_o most_o part_n they_o do_v still_o in_o the_o same_o court_n here_o establish_v than_o what_o ordinary_n do_v abroad_o which_o we_o here_o be_v not_o so_o well_o acquaint_v withal_o and_o from_o hence_o come_v the_o answer_n to_o another_o object_v addition_n in_o that_o this_o letter_n say_v that_o such_o controversy_n as_o be_v speak_v of_o immediate_o before_o in_o the_o letter_n have_v mixture_n with_o temporal_a authority_n and_o concern_v temporal_a fortune_n and_o receive_v also_o temper_n from_o our_o temporal_a law_n etc._n etc._n this_o the_o divine_a according_a to_o his_o former_a manner_n of_o speech_n call_v a_o addition_n to_o his_o lordship_n word_n who_o he_o say_v say_v nothing_o of_o temporal_a fortune_n nor_o authority_n of_o temporal_a prince_n as_o for_o the_o word_n addition_n it_o suit_v yet_o far_o less_o in_o this_o place_n than_o before_o true_a it_o be_v the_o bishop_n do_v not_o speak_v of_o temporal_a fortune_n and_o law_n but_o he_o speak_v of_o that_o which_o have_v necessary_a connexion_n with_o they_o which_o be_v his_o ordinaryship_n which_o connexion_n though_o the_o bishop_n perhaps_o do_v not_o so_o serious_o reflect_v upon_o as_o a_o thing_n that_o may_v hinder_v the_o extent_n of_o his_o power_n yet_o layman_n who_o it_o concern_v can_v not_o but_o look_v about_o they_o to_o see_v themselves_o hook_v in_o upon_o a_o sudden_a by_o title_n of_o a_o ordinary_a which_o bring_v after_o it_o all_o this_o that_o be_v mention_v in_o the_o lay_v man_n letter_n
in_o itself_o still_o without_o change_n whatsoever_o the_o other_o be_v be_v not_o their_o change_n mere_o accidental_a to_o his_o authority_n for_o he_o be_v still_o bishop_n of_o chalcedon_n &_o have_v the_o same_o commission_n if_o then_o that_o will_v be_v against_o that_o law_n now_o it_o be_v what_o temerity_n be_v it_o then_o in_o catholik_o to_o advertise_v my_o lord_n of_o chalcedon_n what_o danger_n he_o bring_v upon_o himself_o &_o other_o by_o erect_v this_o new_a tribunal_n which_o they_o may_v true_o call_v innovation_n as_o be_v a_o thing_n without_o precedent_n in_o our_o nation_n and_o contrary_a to_o our_o ancient_a law_n &_o therefore_o no_o restitution_n of_o ordinary_a episcopal_a jurisdiction_n as_o the_o divine_a will_v have_v it_o though_o suppose_v it_o be_v true_o and_o proper_o restitution_n of_o ordinary_a episcopal_a jurisdiction_n and_o consequent_o not_o against_o the_o ancient_a law_n yet_o will_v it_o be_v against_o the_o modern_a which_o threaten_v so_o many_o &_o so_o great_a danger_n that_o a_o man_n may_v very_o well_o without_o note_n of_o temerity_n declare_v they_o &_o use_v what_o mean_v they_o can_v to_o avoid_v they_o i_o can_v here_o note_v how_o some_o friend_n of_o this_o divine_a i_o mean_v some_o of_o the_o appellant_n in_o clement_n the_o viii_o his_o time_n urge_v these_o ancient_a law_n against_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o archpriest_n then_o appoint_v by_o that_o pope_n though_o that_o be_v no_o external_a jurisdiction_n nor_o over_o the_o laity_n how_o much_o more_o than_o may_v they_o be_v urge_v against_o my_o lord_n bishop_n of_o chalcedon_n which_o he_o pretend_v but_o i_o say_v no_o more_o of_o it_o 3._o the_o 3._o point_n of_o temerity_n wherewith_o this_o divine_a charge_v catholic_n be_v in_o that_o they_o censure_v the_o sea_n apostolic_a as_o he_o say_v and_o 2._o most_o wise_a pope_n by_o say_v that_o if_o these_o their_o danger_n together_o with_o their_o long_a suffering_n &_o present_a state_n of_o misery_n have_v be_v consider_v abroad_o they_o presume_v no_o such_o authority_n will_v have_v be_v impose_v upon_o they_o as_o if_o say_v he_o the_o sea_n apostolic_a have_v not_o consider_v the_o danger_n which_o may_v come_v to_o lay_v catholic_n by_o episcopal_a authority_n and_o then_o he_o ask_v why_o they_o do_v not_o give_v the_o sea_n apostolic_a to_o understand_v these_o danger_n all_o that_o time_n that_o the_o clergy_n stand_v sue_v for_o a_o bishop_n the_o jesuit_n oppose_v it_o or_o all_o the_o time_n that_o the_o bishop_n have_v be_v here_o wherein_o as_o the_o divine_a say_v he_o have_v ever_o profess_v himself_o ordinary_a whereupon_o he_o conclude_v that_o it_o be_v not_o the_o rear_n of_o danger_n to_o themselves_o but_o their_o passionatenesse_n to_o regulars_n who_o stand_v in_o danger_n of_o approbation_n that_o move_v they_o to_o this_o this_o be_v the_o divine_n discourse_n and_o a_o very_a good_a and_o likely_a one_o it_o be_v forsooth_o because_o the_o catholic_n say_v that_o if_o their_o danger_n have_v be_v consider_v to_o use_v the_o divine_n word_n abroad_o they_o presume_v they_o shall_v not_o have_v have_v such_o authority_n impose_v upon_o they_o therefore_o they_o censure_v the_o sea_n apostolic_a this_o man_n be_v so_o much_o in_o give_v judgement_n and_o censure_v that_o all_o that_o any_o man_n else_o say_v seem_v to_o he_o to_o be_v censure_v what_o be_v there_o here_o any_o way_n condemn_v the_o sea_n apostolic_a nay_o rather_o do_v not_o catholic_n in_o this_o show_v the_o great_a confidence_n they_o have_v of_o the_o love_n and_o tenderness_n that_o the_o sea_n apostolic_a bear_v towards_o they_o which_o induce_v they_o to_o think_v that_o if_o their_o case_n have_v be_v full_o make_v know_v it_o will_v no_o way_n do_v a_o thing_n so_o prejudicial_a unto_o they_o where_o it_o be_v to_o be_v note_v that_o beside_o the_o divine_n ordinary_a liberty_n of_o term_v thing_n as_o he_o list_v to_o conceive_v they_o &_o wrest_v word_n to_o a_o worse_a sense_n here_o he_o corrupt_v the_o text_n the_o better_a to_o ground_v his_o accusation_n of_o temerity_n for_o in_o those_o copy_n that_o i_o have_v see_v of_o this_o letter_n there_o be_v not_o the_o word_n consider_v but_o the_o word_n understand_v which_o be_v no_o way_n subject_n to_o exception_n but_o notwithstanding_o suppose_v the_o divine_n copy_n have_v the_o word_n consider_v which_o yet_o a_o man_n may_v doubt_v of_o none_o else_o have_v so_o it_o may_v very_o well_o carry_v the_o same_o sense_n which_o suppose_v what_o temerity_n or_o what_o censure_n be_v it_o to_o say_v if_o the_o pope_n do_v understand_v our_o case_n etc._n etc._n may_v not_o the_o pope_n be_v ignorant_a of_o many_o particular_a law_n or_o statute_n of_o a_o kingdom_n so_o remote_a in_o place_n and_o so_o different_a in_o manner_n and_o language_n and_o especial_o in_o this_o time_n of_o protestancy_n as_o this_o kingdom_n be_v he_o be_v a_o man_n and_o have_v none_o but_o humane_a mean_n to_o know_v thing_n he_o can_v know_v our_o affair_n by_o himself_o but_o by_o information_n of_o other_o and_o it_o seem_v they_o have_v be_v such_o man_n as_o be_v more_o careful_a to_o prosecute_v their_o own_o end_n then_o seek_v our_o good_a and_o therefore_o will_v make_v no_o more_o know_v of_o our_o case_n then_o may_v stand_v with_o their_o pretence_n &_o now_o that_o we_o come_v to_o speak_v for_o ourselves_o &_o to_o make_v know_v our_o own_o case_n for_o say_v that_o if_o it_o have_v be_v so_o understand_v abroad_o we_o be_v calumniate_v as_o if_o we_o do_v temerarious_o censure_v the_o sea_n apostolic_a what_o deal_v be_v this_o but_o because_o this_o divine_a do_v thus_o grievous_o accuse_v catholic_n for_o temerity_n in_o censure_v the_o sea_n apostolic_a i_o will_v willing_o ask_v he_o a_o question_n in_o his_o ear_n whether_o he_o do_v know_v a_o man_n in_o the_o world_n that_o have_v be_v often_o hear_v to_o say_v before_o there_o be_v a_o bishop_n 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