Selected quad for the lemma: friend_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
friend_n	answer_v	king_n	lord_n	916	5	3.9995	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19164	The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon.	Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut	1631 (1631)	STC 5576; ESTC S117323	60,660	174

this reason I remit this Deuine to a great friend of my Lord Bishops who is wont to alledge his fauour to my Lord Bishop for a reason of the Kings displeasure towards him I might for answer also alledge the Proclamations much and continual searching for him which hath brought so great vexation vpon Catholiques and vpon many Priests taken by his occasion but that I list not much to medle in such a matter as this Only this I may tell the Deuine that my Lord Bishop himselfe as I haue beene credibly informed tooke notice and exceptiō to the speachs of some Catholiques of worth who spake feelingly of what they suffered by his occasion and wished he would for auoyding their trouble withdraw himselfe which sheweth that Catholiques find the contrary of what this Deuine would make them beleeue His 3. reason is because there can be no greater daunger iustly pretended against one Bishop then against so many Priests they being forbidden by the moderne lawes and he being not forbidden by either moderne or anciēt lawes Wherto I answer that as I haue shewed before the daunger is far greater For Episcopall Authority is so much more forbidden as it is greater Authority deriued from the sea of Rome and a double Authority For besides the iurisdiction of forum internum which Priests haue the Bishop would haue another of forum externum which is much more against the moderne lawes then the former Besides that I haue shewed before that the Authority which my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon challengeth is truly against our ancient Lawes The 4. reason is because there is no Law ancient or moderne against Catholique Episcopall Authority for the ancient lawes forbid an extraordinary Tribunall as that of Legates and ordayne only for Catholique tymes when there were true Episcopall tribunals which they would not haue disturbed by extraordinary Tribunals and so are rather in fauour of vsuall Episcopal Authority as the Bishop of Chalcedons is then any way against it that they are only against a new Tribunall such as a Catholique Episcopall tribunall is not For this reason I answere it is the same with the former and hath beene oft repeated the often repetition of the same discouering the want of matter the Deuine hath The substance of the argument I answered fully before in the answere to the 2. poynt of Temerity where I shewed this Tribunall which he pretendeth to be new and to be by many degrees more neere a Legatiue then an Episcopall Tribunall though indeed neither and so not onely extraordinary but most extraordinary Heere therfore I wil onely speake of that which the Deuine decideth so plainly of my Lord of Chalcedons Tribunall in saying the auncient lawes are rather in fauour of vsuall Episcopall Authority such as my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons is wherin I cānot but note how this Deuine is a little more free in auouching my Lord Bishops Tribunall or power in foro externo then I belieue my Lord Bishop himselfe or some of his more wary Officers are when they write or speake to men of vnderstanding For though my Lord Bishops words in his owne Letter did seeme very plaine in this point as that he was delegated by his Holynes to an vniuersality of causes belonging to Ordinaries and that he was made a Iudge in prima instantia yet afterwards in a certayne Letter to a Lady which hath beene seene vnder his owne hand his Lordship sayth that concerning the new Tribunall which some say he hath erected it is a meere fiction inuented without ground for he neuer thought of erecting such a Tribunall and that his Authority ouer them is meerly spirituall as the wordes of his Breue are in Spirituale bonum Catholicorum to wit to administer to them that Sacramēt which they cannot haue but by a Bishop c. And in conformity hereof there being a meeting appointed by some of the Clergy and some of the Layty and Conference held concerning this Letter of my Lords to the Lady those of the sayd Clergy that were there and were lyke to know most of my Lord Bishops mynd acknowledged and conformably themselues sayd that my Lord Bishop neuer intended any such Tribunall And it went so far as that the Lay Gentlemen drew a certayne Letter to the same effect in explication of his Lordships first Letter in which he sayd his meaning was mistakē which his Lordship might please to write to the Laity expressing as much to thē as he had done to the Lady which though it were no more then he had already written and was confessed by his owne officers yet he would not write it for what reason I know not Nay this Deuine himselfe in mayntayning this Tribunall seemeth a little contrary to himselfe For in his first section and 3. point of Passion he complayneth of the Gentlemen for stretching as he sayth my Lord Bishops words vpon the Tēter hooks in that they vnderstood his Lordships words of an Episcopall Tribunall or power in foro externo Whereas sayth he the Bishop speaketh onely of such Authority as Ordinaries haue or can hane in their Diocesse and which was sufficient to exact of Regulars that they should aske his approbation And a little after Where sayth he in all the Bishops Letter is there one word of temporall Authority or of Authority ouer temporall fortunes or such as haue beene altered or directed by our Temporall Princes What word then of the Bishops enforced them to make this sense None surely but their owne passiō which made them make this forced sense this forced inference These are the Deuines owne words which I do not see well how he can reconcile with his words in this place Wherfore though I will not take vpon me to teach such a Deuine yet I may say he should haue beene better aduised and agreed better vpon his tale both with himselfe and with others of his owne sayde before he had fallen to write and so perhaps he might haue saued himselfe all this needlesse labour of writing and me the labour of answearing for neyther he nor any else can well tel what Authority they would haue for my Lord Bishop onely Authority they would haue for him and for themselues But what or how they cannot tell For fayne they would haue his Lordship to haue Authority of Ordinary for without that they cannot so well compasse their ends nor with it neyther I may truly say And yet they find such mayne obstacles on the other syde making it not only difficult but euen impossible that they are fayne for shame sake to deny all such pretences And thence it is that sometymes they say one thing sometymes another Sometymes that he is Ordinary sometymes that he hath faculties only for the spirituall good of Catholickes c. And they are so nice and wary when they speake with people that vnderstand things or may make any vse of their words that one cannot tell well what they say and yet they are more free

of totall restitution of the Catholique fayth when Almighty God shall please the Sea Apostolique dealeth most prudently sending men hither with so much power as is necessary and expedient for Catholiques at this tyme reseruing the fullnesse of Ordinary Episcopall power till the full restitution of Catholike Religion in this Kingdome For so Catholiques are well assured that his Lordship is not Ordinary howsoeuer the Deuine cry nothing but Pastour and lawfull Pastour at euery word But men giue him the hearing only they cannot but woūnder that he should so brauely carry out the matter as if there were no Declaration or order to the contrary when he cannot but know that my Lord Bishop hath had more orders thē one to that purpose Nay that my Lord Bishop hath acknowledged the receipt of them else where though heere he do not and hath promised to cease from further stirring though we do not yet see the performance of it vnlesse it be that his Lordship indeed forbeare but that his Officers wil not be obedient to him in that wherin they may soone do his Lordship much wrong For their faults wil be imputed to him Now because this Deuine sayth Episcopall power hath beene euer obserued in the Church in all times of persecution whatsoeuer inferring thereupon that here now in England there ought to be a Bishop I would wish him to consider whether euen in the primitiue Church the persecution were like ours in some respects for though it were more bloudy● and the tormēts more various and cruel yet it was but by fits and generally the Christians had their Cripts placed vnder ground and howses dedicated to that vse wherein they had a publike kind of exercise of their faith euen by publike allowance and Priests and Clergy men were distinguished by their habit tonsure or shauing of their crowne as it is vsed now generally in the Catholique Church But our case is farre different for heere we haue much ado to heare Masse in a corner as priuate as may be without discouery how much lesse might we haue those other things which belong to the Authority of an Ordinary But of this againe in another place These things considered since none of these spiritual cōmodities which this Deuine speaketh off are necessarily cōnected with the Authority of Ordinary neither are so necessary but that a man may be a good Christian and Catholique without them they cannot be the true motiue of pursuing the matter with such violence and heate to the greater scandall and harme of the Catholique cause then all the Authority my Lord Bishop would haue or this Deuine haue for him wil do good and therefore men are induced to thinke that the true motiue is Ambition desire of Rule interest in the fortunes of Lay men disposing of Legacies in maius bonum as would be pretended iudgemēt of controuersies betweene party party without their consents and by little and little to draw into practise a vexation by the seuerall tribunals vpon Catholiques This I will not say but surely there be great presumptions for it for if their reasons were good they would carry things with more tēper they would with a litle more patience endure to heare men propound their reasons to the cōtrary they would quietly expect the determination of the Sea Apostolique and obey it when it commeth besids that in their very discourses they cānot but bewray somwhat of their minds concerning Legacies monyes for pious vses But I will say no more of it but passe to another Section SECT IIII. That the Temporall daungers are not meerly pretended THE Deuine in his 4. Section laboureth by many reasons to proue that the tēporall Daungers are but pretended which is but euen the same that he said in the former Section in other words For though he sayth in the title that their motiues were worldly yet in his discourse he sayth that those were not their true motiues but their passionatenesse to Regulars and so he sayth heere yet I must yield to follow him though he saith but the same things ouer againe His first reason to proue the daungers to be only pretended is because they neuer mentioned those daungers till approbation was moued to Regulars which was about Easter 1627. whereas Episcopal Authority had beene restored since the yeare 1623. I answere first that wheras he sayth that Episcopall Authority was restored I see not how that can be said to be restored which neuer was for when was there euer a Bishop of Chalcedon in Englād with power of Ordinary in England before this mans predecessour Secondly Catholiques did little dreame at first of any such Authority as my Lord Bishop challengeth For the forraine title of Chalcedon gaue thē some assurance that he was not to be a Bishop like as in former Catholique tymes And though they heard somtymes of the word Ordinary amōg some of my Lords Clergy yet they made no great matter of it not knowing any great ground Notwithstanding they were desirous to know what Authority the Bishop had and for that cause vsed all the meanes they could to see his Letters or Faculties but they could not get a sight of them which made them begin to suspect somwhat and so they began to be a litle more carefull then before especially hearing of diuers things done by my Lord of Chalcedons officers as Excommunicating of some and threatning others as also comming to see the Letters Patents wherby his Lordship did create his Archdeacons true and lawfull Rulers and Ecclesiasticall Superiours of the Laity which when they saw they began to cōsult among themselues what was fit to be done And all this was before that euer my Lord of Chalcedon moued any thing about Approbation of Regulars And without question they would haue done what they did for their owne security though the matter of Approbation had neuer beene moued to Regulars It may be when they saw the flame breake out so strōg against Regulars who were otherwise exempt by challenging of a thing which could not belon● but to a proper Ordinary in his Diocesse it might quickē them make them go about what they were doing with a little more speed and therupon they drew certaine points concerning my Lord of Chalcedons Authority in which they were desirous to be resolued and all of them concerning themselues and such as they had heard many of my Lord of Chalcedons Officers and friends speake of as things that were like to be put in practise But because it was not fit for thē to go vpon vncertaine reports they were desirous to know of my Lord of Chalcedon himselfe what his Lordship did conceiue to belong vnto him so that this Deuine is cleane out of his way in making the matter of approbatiō of Regulars the cause of the Laymens stirring His second reason to proue the daungers to be pretended only is because no man hath beene in daunger since the restitution of Episcopall Authority For answer to

Bishop they saw it was a needles thing to mention it being a knowne point of Christian duty not to heare any man ill spoken of much lesse a Bishop if they should chāce to meete with any such discourse which they neuer do they and their friends abhorring such way of proceeding The second proofe of passion is because the Bishop offering further satisfaction concerning his Authority to any man that would aske it these Gentlemen did not aske it It is true indeed hauing seene my Lord Bishops publique clayme of that Authority it was no tyme for thē to go and aske a priuate glosse or Declaration which would little auaile them when such a Letter should be brought against them But let this Deuine aske my L. Bishop Whether he were neuer desired to make it knowne what Authority he had I am sure his Lordship wil not deny but he was many tymes but he neuer would til he declared it in this publique manner If my Lord then meant to giue them sufficient satisfactiō in priuate why did he not do it in priuate while mē did desire it and while there was tyme Besides suppose my Lord would haue written a Letter he might haue forborne to speake so plainly of his Ordinaryship only inuiting those that desired to know his Authority to come priuatly vnto him And for that which this Deuine saith that my Lord could not informe them sufficiently of his Authority in so short a Letter I se not what reason there is for it I dare say his Letter is 5. tymes at least as long as his Patents or Breue and Instructions the sight whereof would haue serued the turne without all this writing doing Which being so easy a matter th●t yet his Lordship would not do it they might well despaire of further satisfaction The third proofe of passion is that as this Deuine saith this Letter stretcheth my Lord Bishops words vpon the Tenter-hookes or rather addeth vnto them in saying that the particuler passages cyted and the whole scope of the second part of the Letter argue his Lordship to assume his Authority ouer the lay Catholiques to be as great in England and Scotland as any Ordinary exercised here in England in Catholique tymes Whereas my Lord Bishop neuer spake of Authority ouer lay Catholiques in Scotlād but only to proue himselfe Ordinary brought the Inscription of Letters from some Cardinals thus Ordinario Angliae Scotiae In which the Deuine complaineth of two Additions the one that the Letter sayth my Lord challengeth Authority ouer the laity of Scotland the other that it sayth my Lord challengeth as much Authority here in England as Ordinaries haue had in Catholyke tymes But first the Letter neither stretcheth nor addeth to my Lords words but only maketh a manifest and immediate inference vpon or out of thē For it saith his Lordship words argue him to assume c. Which plainely shewes that they do not charge his Lordship with saying so in expresse termes but saying that out of which as antecedent the cōclusion is manifestly gathered Now there is great difference betweene an inference and an Addition as euery body knoweth Secondly if the Deuine would haue answered and not cauelled he should haue shewed the Conclusiō not to be wel truly deduced out of his Lordships antecedent then he had sayd somewhat to the purpose But that he cannot do For if my L. Bishop out of the Inscription Ordinario Angliae do proue himself Ordinary out of this inferre himselfe to haue authority ouer Lay Catholiks of Englād why may he not do the lyke of the words Ordinario Scotiae which Title his Lordship vseth continually and ioyntly with the word Angliae thus Ordinarius Angliae Scotiae Thirdly his Lordships patēts make no difference betweene the faithfull of England and Scotland Wherfore if he challenge authority ouer the one he may do it ouer the other For the other Addition as this Deuine sayth or Inference as in truth it is of assuming the same Authority which Ordinaries haue exercised heere in Catholique tymes what can the Deuine say to it Is it not truly and euidently inferred My Lord Bishop sayth the Pope maketh him as absolute Ordinary in England as other Ordinaries in their Diocesses and this Deuine acknowledgeth him to haue as much as any Ordinary hath or can haue in his Diocesse But our Ordinaryes heere in Catholicke tymes were no more but as other Ordinaries in their Diocesses nor had more then any Ordinary hath or may haue in his Diocesse Ergo my Lord Bishop supposing these his Lordships premises hath the same Authority that Catholique Ordinaries haue had heere in England in Catholique tymes Or by the challenging that Authority of other Ordinaries or what they haue or may haue he challengeth the same that Ordinaries haue had in Catholike tymes What fault is there in this Argument Why then doth this Deuine●ryfle ●ryfle thus As if these two were not all one The Authority which an Ordinary hath or may haue in his Diocesse and which an Ordinary had in tymes past heere in England Had our Bishops more heere then an Ordinary may haue elswhere Did he perhaps thinke that no man would euer vouchsafe to answere or perhaps read this paper Where is now the passion in stretching and adding of words But because it may moreouer appeare that this inference of the Authority which Ordinaries had heretofore did not proceed from passion I will ad a reason why mention was made of our Ordinaries of former tymes in England which is this That they who wrote the Letter came better to be acquaynted with what belongs to the Authority of Ordinary and how farre it extendeth it selfe by that which Ordinaryes were wont to do heere in England and which for the most part they do still in the same Courts heere established then what Ordinaries do abroad which we heere are not so well acquainted withall And from hence commeth the answere to another obiected Addition in that this Letter saith that such cōtrouersies as were spoken of immediatly before in the Letter haue mixture with temporall Authority and concerne temporall fortunes and receiue also temper from our temporall lawes c. This the Deuine according to his former māner of speach calleth an Addition to his Lordships words who he sayth sayd nothing of temporall fortunes nor Authority of temporal Princes As for the word Addition it suteth yet farre lesse in this place then before True it is the Bishop did not speake of temporall fortunes and lawes but he spake of that which hath necessary connexion with them which is his Ordinaryship Which connexion though the Bishop perhaps did not so seriously reflect vpon as a thing that might hinder the extēt of his power yet Lay-men whome it concerned could not but looke about them to see themselues hooked in vpon a suddayne by Tytle of an Ordinary which bringeth after it all this that is mentioned in the Lay mens Letter

in it selfe still without chāge whatsoeuer the others be Is not their change meerely accidentall to his Authority For he is still Bishop of Chalcedon hath the same commission If then that would be against that law now it is What temerity is it then in Catholiks to aduertise my Lord of Chalcedon what danger he bringeth vpon himselfe others by erecting this new Tribunal which they may truly call Innouation as being a thing without President in our nation and contrary to our ancient Laws therfore no restitution of Ordinary Episcopall iurisdiction as the Deuine would haue it though suppose it were truly and properly restitutiō of Ordinary Episcopall iurisdiction and consequently not against the ancient Lawes yet would it be against the moderne which threaten so many so great dangers that a man may very wel without note of temerity declare them vse what means they can to auoyd them I could heer note how some friends of this Deuine I meane some of the Appellants in Clement the VIII his time vrged these ancient lawes against the Authority of the Archpriest then appointed by that Pope though that were no externall iurisdictiō nor ouer the Laity how much more then may they be vrged against my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons which he pretēds But I say no more of it 3. The 3. poynt of Temerity wherwith this Deuine chargeth Catholikes is in that they censure the sea Apostolique as he sayth and 2. most wise Popes by saying that if these their dangers togeather with their long sufferinges present state of miseries had ben considered abroade they presume no such Authority woulde haue beene imposed vpon them as if sayth he the sea Apostolique had not considered the daungers which might come to Lay Catholiques by Episcopall Authority And then he asketh why they did not giue the Sea Apostolique to vnderstand these daungers all that tyme that the Clergy stood suing for a Bishop the Iesuits opposing it Or all the tyme that the Bishop hath been heer wherein as the Deuine sayth he hath euer professed himselfe Ordinary Whervpon he cōcludeth that it is not the reare of daunger to themselues but their passionatenesse to Regulars who stood in daunger of Approbation that moueth thē to this This is the Deuines discourse and a very good and likely one it is forsooth because the Catholiques say that if their daungers had beene considered to vse the Deuines words abroad they presume they should not haue had such Authority imposed vpon them Therfore they cēsure the sea Apostolike This man is so much in giuing iudgment and censuring that all that any man else sayth seemeth to him to be censuring What is there heere any way condemning the Sea Apostolique Nay rather do not Catholiques in this shew the great confidence they haue of the loue and tendernes that the Sea Apostolicke beareth towards them Which induceth them to thinke that if their case had been fully made knowne it would no way do a thing so preiudiciall vnto them where it is to be noted that besides the Deuines ordinary liberty of terming thinges as he listeth to cōceiue thē wresting words to a worse sense heer he corrupteth the text the better to ground his accusation of Temerity For in those copies that I haue seen of this Letter there was not the word Considered but the word Vnderstood which is no way subiect to exception But notwithstanding suppose the Deuines copy had the word Considered which yet a man may doubt of none else hauing so it may very well carry the same sense Which supposed what Temerity or what Censure is it to say if the Pope did vnderstand our case c. May not the Pope be ignorāt of many particular laws or Statutes of a Kingdome so remote in place and so different in manners and language and especially in this tyme of Protestancy as this Kingdome is He being a man and hauing none but humane meanes to know thinges he cannot know our affaire by himselfe but by information of others and it seemeth they haue beene such men as were more carefull to prosecute their owne ends then seeke our good and therefore would make no more knowne of our case then might stand with their pretences now that we come to speake for our selues to make knowne our owne case for saying that if it had beene so vnderstood abroad we are calumniated as if we did temerariously cēsure the Sea Apostolique What dealing is this But because this Deuine doth thus grieuously accuse Catholiques for Temerity in censuring the Sea Apostolique I would willingly aske him a question in his eare whether he do know a man in the world that hath been often heard to say before there was a Bishop that the Pope was bound vnder paine of mortall sinne to let the English Clergy haue a Bishop and consequently it euidently followeth that in the same Deuines iudgment in not granting one he did sinne mortally If he do not know such a man I can tel him who he is and vouch for my selfe one of the Clergy it selfe and a man of chiefe Authority vnder my Lord Bishop and of great credit with him for his forwardnes and zeale in the cause Now whether this be not censuring let any man iudge For what greater censure can there be then to condemne the chiefe Pastour of Gods Church of a mortal sinne And of a mortall sinne nor so much in matter of fact which might depend of information and so be somewhat excusable but in matter of Iudgment or error in a Doctrinal poynt which cannot be excused as whether the law of God require the hauing a Bishop or not heere in England at this tyme Which the Pope denieth this De 〈…〉 affirmeth and not only affirmeth but condemneth the Pope of a mortall 〈…〉 e for not being of his mind These 〈…〉 tlemen vsed a modest worde 〈…〉 they vsed also a conditionall 〈…〉 anner of speaking which were sufficient to mollify the word suppose it had beene a little harsh They impute no crime they shew assurance of loue and tendernesse and of great wisdome and maturity in counsel and yet this is censuring And wheras he accuseth Catholiques also for Censuring two most wise Popes of doing what they vnderstood not I might answere him likewise that he condemneth all the Popes that went before these two for the space of three-score yeares to wit Ten most graue and wise Popes who for many and very waighty reasons would neuer be drawen to haue a Bishop heere as tymes stood And the two last yelded to the hauing of a Bishop not out of any Scruple of conscience or feare of transgressing the Deuine precept but out of other motiues Nay it is most like that they would haue held the same course that so many of their Predecessours did holde but that they were persuaded by some that the tymes were altered so that it might better be now then heertofore which can be no fault of the