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A88101 A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations. Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1658 (1658) Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182 106,562 123

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follow_v the_o same_o course_n but_o he_o leave_v not_o the_o world_n long_o in_o this_o opinion_n have_v
write_v to_o the_o synod_n of_o minister_n assemble_v at_o gargean_n that_o he_o be_v not_o so_o wretched_o instruct_v in_o piety_n as_o that_o for_o want_n of_o knowledge_n of_o the_o truth_n he_o shall_v suffer_v himself_o to_o be_v carry_v away_o with_o every_o humour_n of_o doctrine_n the_o cause_n of_o so_o little_a good_a success_n of_o debate_n dispute_n conference_n or_o controversy_n of_o religion_n betwixt_o party_n of_o opposite_a opinion_n be_v divers_a in_o some_o the_o prevalent_a power_n of_o fancy_n or_o imagination_n above_o judgement_n be_v the_o cause_n that_o argument_n whether_o artfiicial_a of_o reason_n or_o inartificial_a of_o testimony_n will_v work_v little_a upon_o prejudicate_v fancy_n of_o the_o various_a work_n whereof_o we_o may_v read_v many_o observable_a particular_n in_o the_o learned_a discourse_n of_o picus_n earl_n of_o mirandula_n of_o 9_o of_o jo._n picus_n mirandula_n lib._n de_fw-la imaginatione_fw-la vol._n 2._o operum_fw-la p._n 91._o praecip_n c._n 7_o 8_o 9_o that_o title_n second_o with_o some_o custom_n be_v a_o great_a obstacle_n against_o the_o receive_n of_o truth_n and_o thence_o it_o be_v that_o those_o who_o have_v be_v train_v up_o in_o untruth_n from_o their_o childhood_n be_v with_o great_a difficulty_n convince_v of_o it_o or_o convert_v from_o it_o we_o may_v see_v the_o refractoriness_n of_o this_o resistance_n in_o peter_n act_v 10._o who_o when_o v._o 12,13_o a_o vision_n be_v present_v unto_o he_o show_v he_o several_a kind_n of_o creature_n clean_a and_o unclean_a and_o he_o have_v a_o command_n to_o kill_v and_o eat_v v._o 13._o not_o so_o v._n 14._o lord_n say_v he_o why_o so_o peter_n he_o give_v this_o reason_n of_o his_o refusal_n though_o the_o command_n come_v from_o heaven_n because_o of_o his_o customary_a forbearance_n of_o forbid_a meat_n i_o have_v never_o eat_v any_o thing_n that_o be_v common_a and_o unclean_a three_o with_o other_o 38._o other_o prava_fw-la vel_fw-la honoris_fw-la 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be_v discover_v 1538._o discover_v nicol._n archiepis_n capuanus_n magna_fw-la contentione_n clamabat_fw-la ne_fw-la quid_fw-la omnino_fw-la reformaretur_fw-la ne_fw-la lutherani_fw-la jactent_fw-la quasi_fw-la ab_fw-la ipsis_fw-la propemodum_fw-la adacti_fw-la illud_fw-la fecerint_fw-la job_n sl●idan_n comment_fw-fr l._n 12._o p._n 242._o an._n 1538._o leave_v the_o lutheran_n shall_v brag_v that_o they_o have_v be_v bring_v to_o reformation_n by_o they_o five_o some_o account_n it_o their_o credit_n to_o be_v no_o changeling_n especial_o in_o religion_n not_o know_v the_o difference_n betwixt_o constancy_n and_o obstinacy_n six_o and_o oft_o time_n it_o fall_v out_o that_o by_o the_o subtlety_n or_o eloquence_n of_o disputant_n when_o they_o be_v somewhat_o even_o match_v the_o auditory_a be_v keep_v pendulous_a or_o irresolute_a even_o he_o perhaps_o for_o who_o sake_n the_o dispute_n or_o conference_n be_v undertake_v as_o 170._o as_o ille_fw-la cujus_fw-la causa_fw-la in_o congressum_fw-la descendis_fw-la scripturarum_fw-la ut_fw-la cum_fw-la dubitantem_fw-la confirm_v ad_fw-la veritatem_fw-la a_o nagis_fw-la ad_fw-la haeresim_fw-la deverget_fw-la hoc_fw-la ipso_fw-la motus_fw-la quod_fw-la te_fw-la videat_fw-la nihil_fw-la promovisse_fw-la aequo_fw-la gradu_fw-la negandi_fw-la &_o defendendi_fw-la certe_fw-la de_fw-la pari_fw-la &_o altercatione_fw-la incertior_fw-la discedit_fw-la nesciens_fw-la quem_fw-la haereticum_fw-la judicet_fw-la ter●ul_a prescript_n advers._fw-la haereticos_fw-la tom._n 1._o c._n 18._o p._n 170._o tertull._n show_v he_o say_v tertullian_n for_o who_o cause_n thou_o descende_v into_o a_o controversy_n of_o scripture_n that_o thou_o may_v confirm_v he_o against_o doubt_v it_o be_v hard_o to_o say_v whether_o he_o tend_v more_o to_o verity_n or_o to_o heresy_n because_o he_o see_v thou_o prevaile_v nothing_o the_o dispute_n go_v on_o in_o a_o equal_a degree_n of_o deny_v and_o defend_v certain_o by_o such_o a_o parity_n in_o altercation_n he_o will_v depart_v more_o uncertain_a not_o know_v what_o he_o shall_v judge_v to_o be_v heresy_n seven_o when_o conference_n and_o disputation_n in_o religion_n succeed_v not_o so_o well_o as_o good_a man_n will_v have_v they_o be_v because_o they_o be_v not_o order_v or_o manage_v in_o such_o a_o manner_n as_o they_o shall_v be_v whereof_o i_o shall_v speak_v in_o the_o next_o chapter_n as_o in_o its_o prope_a place_n in_o the_o mean_a time_n this_o good_a order_n will_v require_v that_o i_o now_o observe_v what_o good_a success_n have_v be_v the_o issue_n of_o some_o disputation_n betwixt_o michael_n and_o the_o devil_n in_o jude_n christ_n and_o the_o devil_n matth._n 4._o by_o the_o way_n some_o take_v michael_n the_o archangel_n for_o christ_n son_n for_o a_o create_a angel_n to_o i_o it_o be_v which_o i_o will_v now_o neither_o determine_v nor_o discuss_v and_o for_o the_o dispute_v of_o stephen_n and_o paul_n they_o must_v needs_o have_v the_o better_a of_o their_o adversary_n because_o they_o be_v not_o able_a to_o resist_v the_o wisdom_n and_o the_o spirit_n by_o which_o they_o speak_v act._n 6.10_o not_o with_o any_o evidence_n of_o truth_n or_o appearance_n of_o reason_n yet_o when_o the_o truth_n be_v most_o illustrious_o set_v forth_o some_o be_v so_o blind_v and_o harden_v with_o their_o own_o malice_n and_o envy_n that_o they_o can_v not_o see_v it_o or_o will_v not_o confess_v themselves_o to_o be_v convince_v by_o it_o be_v as_o when_o our_o saviour_n have_v mighty_o and_o miraculous_o prove_v himself_o to_o be_v the_o son_n of_o god_n by_o cast_v out_o devil_n the_o devil_n will_v not_o suffer_v his_o adversary_n to_o acknowledge_v it_o but_o stir_v they_o up_o to_o impute_v the_o power_n of_o the_o holy_a spirit_n to_o beelzebub_n the_o prince_n of_o devil_n matth._n 12.24_o and_o when_o athanasius_n have_v a_o disputation_n with_o arius_n he_o will_v not_o yield_v that_o the_o power_n of_o truth_n have_v prevail_v but_o 393._o but_o arius_n in_o quit_v nulli_fw-la dubium_fw-la est_fw-la quin_fw-la magicis_fw-la artibus_fw-la athanasius_n non_fw-la desinat_fw-la judicum_fw-la pervertere_fw-la sensus_fw-la etc._n etc._n athanas_n disp_n contra_fw-la arium_fw-la laodiceae_n tom_n 2._o col_fw-fr 393._o most_o absurd_o suggest_v that_o he_o manage_v his_o cause_n by_o magical_a arts._n notwithstanding_o the_o issue_n and_o effect_n of_o some_o disputation_n have_v be_v more_o successful_a beside_o those_o which_o be_v carry_v on_o by_o a_o divine_a power_n against_o humane_a or_o devilish_a malignity_n as_o that_o of_o octavius_n a_o christian_n with_o cecilius_n a_o heathen_a set_v forth_o by_o minutius_n felix_n whereof_o we_o have_v observe_v before_o that_o some_o take_v that_o for_o a_o real_a story_n some_o for_o a_o pious_a discourse_n compose_v by_o minutius_n himself_o dialogue-wise_a under_o the_o borrow_a name_n of_o 22._o of_o caecilium_fw-la superstitiosis_fw-la vanitatibus_fw-la etiamnum_fw-la inhaerentem_fw-la disputatione_n gravissima_fw-la ad_fw-la veram_fw-la religionem_fw-la reformavit_fw-la octavius_n sic_fw-la minutius_n fellix_fw-la conclus_fw-la dialog_n tom._n 9_o bibliothec._n patrum_fw-la col_fw-fr 22._o octavius_n a_o christian_n and_o cecilius_n a_o heathen_a the_o effect_n whereof_o whether_o it_o be_v historical_a or_o poetical_a or_o moral_a be_v such_o as_o be_v answerable_a to_o such_o convince_a premise_n viz._n that_o cecilius_n convert_v by_o octavius_n from_o superstitious_a vanity_n they_o part_v with_o mutual_a congratulation_n and_o minutius_n thereby_o account_v himself_o felix_n ibid._n felix_n post_fw-la haec_fw-la laeti_fw-la hilaresque_fw-la discessimus_fw-la caecilius_n quod_fw-la crediderit_fw-la octavius_n quod_fw-la vicerit_fw-la ego_fw-la quod_fw-la ille_fw-la crediderit_fw-la hic_fw-la vicerit_fw-la ibid._n rejoice_v with_o and_o for_o they_o both_o 32._o both_o euseb_n eccles_n hist_o l._n 6._o p._n 32._o eusebius_n and_o 292._o and_o hierom._n catal._n script_n eccles_n tom_fw-mi 1._o p._n 292._o hierome_n make_v report_n of_o beryllus_n bishop_n of_o bostra_n in_o arabia_n that_o he_o fall_v from_o the_o faith_n to_o strange_a doctrine_n of_o the_o divinity_n and_o humanity_n of_o christ_n but_o confer_v with_o origen_n be_v convict_v by_o manifest_a proof_n and_o
sutisfaction_n because_o he_o want_v the_o book_n you_o direct_v he_o to_o or_o will_v not_o be_v at_o cost_n to_o buy_v they_o or_o trouble_v to_o peruse_v they_o and_o if_o he_o do_v read_v they_o will_v bring_v a_o resolution_n rather_o to_o cavil_v at_o they_o then_o to_o receive_v resolution_n from_o they_o when_o you_o have_v leisure_n to_o wash_v a_o black-moor_n you_o may_v spare_v some_o time_n to_o spend_v upon_o your_o self-conceited_a and_o self-willed_a adversary_n mr._n j._n o._n for_o such_o a_o one_o will_v every_o judicious_a man_n judge_v he_o to_o be_v who_o read_v with_o indifferency_n the_o disputation_n and_o examination_n publish_v by_o he_o against_o you_o five_o you_o have_v too_o much_o precious_a work_n in_o your_o hand_n every_o day_n then_o that_o you_o can_v warrantable_o lay_v any_o part_n of_o it_o aside_o to_o contend_v with_o such_o a_o obstinate_a adversary_n as_o mr._n onley_n be_v and_o i_o be_o very_o persuade_v and_o i_o assure_v myself_o many_o that_o know_v your_o various_a and_o uncessant_a pain_n for_o the_o soul_n of_o your_o people_n of_o coventry_n be_v of_o my_o mind_n that_o thereby_o you_o do_v more_o good_a in_o a_o week_n there_o than_o you_o shall_v do_v by_o dispute_v with_o or_o write_v against_o a_o perverse_a anabaptist_n a_o whole_a year_n together_o six_o there_o be_v so_o many_o now_o engage_v in_o the_o defence_n of_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n for_o now_o mr._n o._n set_v himself_o against_o all_o the_o church_n of_o europe_n and_o new_a england_n beside_o old_a england_n that_o so_o much_o work_n can_v in_o reason_n fall_v to_o your_o share_n as_o still_o to_o manage_v the_o defence_n of_o they_o all_o against_o he_o or_o any_o such_o obstreperous_a talker_n especial_o have_v such_o a_o weighty_a burden_n of_o pastoral_a employment_n continual_o upon_o you_o seven_o if_o you_o shall_v set_v all_o aside_o and_o encounter_v he_o at_o the_o press_n as_o you_o have_v do_v by_o disputation_n in_o the_o church_n it_o will_v be_v to_o little_a purpose_n or_o profit_n both_o in_o respect_n of_o mr._n o._n and_o of_o his_o party_n for_o first_o for_o he_o unless_o you_o answer_v he_o in_o every_o particular_a how_o impertinent_a soever_o you_o shall_v still_o be_v under_o his_o exception_n and_o insultation_n to_o the_o great_a prejudice_n both_o of_o your_o cause_n &_o person_n for_o he_o not_o only_o tax_v you_o for_o deficient_a answer_v already_o say_v to_o a_o great_a part_n of_o his_o answer_n you_o have_v not_o say_v one_o word_n and_o that_o your_o reply_n pass_v over_o just_a half_n his_o answer_n without_o a_o word_n of_o reply_n 115._o exam._n of_o dr._n ●…_n rep._n p._n 28._o ibid._n p._n 115._o but_o such_o be_v his_o insolency_n that_o as_o if_o he_o have_v authority_n to_o prescribe_v your_o part_n of_o the_o controversy_n as_o well_o as_o to_o dispose_v of_o his_o own_o he_o lay_v this_o severe_a law_n upon_o you_o if_o you_o contest_v with_o he_o again_o exact_o to_o answer_v to_o each_o particular_a plain_o and_o downright_o by_o reason_n and_o scripture_n direct_o to_o the_o purpose_n or_o else_o to_o confess_v you_o can_v by_o say_v nothing_o neither_o so_o nor_o so_o for_o datur_fw-la tertium_fw-la a_o man_n may_v silent_o pais_fw-fr by_o a_o especial_a part_n of_o his_o book_n write_v in_o defence_n of_o a_o precious_a truth_n 69._o mr._n o._n his_o exam_n of_o dr._n br._n reply_v p._n 69._o as_o he_o phrase_v it_o that_o be_v universal_a redemption_n because_o it_o be_v discover_v to_o be_v a_o pernicious_a error_n and_o abundant_o confute_v by_o doctor_n kendal_n in_o answer_n to_o m._n john_n goodwin_n book_n call_v redemption_n redeem_v and_o another_o part_n as_o impertinent_a as_o that_o so_o often_o inculcate_v position_n of_o mr._n o._n of_o the_o first_o constitution_n of_o church_n and_o another_o part_n be_v answer_v by_o dr._n br._n before_o as_o that_o for_o the_o vindication_n of_o the_o ministry_n of_o england_n no_o need_n then_o of_o confess_v you_o can_v say_v nothing_o 33._o disp_n p._n 33._o because_o you_o do_v not_o say_v all_o thing_n as_o he_o appoint_v you_o mr._n fisher_n make_v a_o more_o modest_a resolution_n concern_v his_o adversary_n and_o himself_o if_o any_o one_o answer_n say_v he_o and_o i_o have_v satisfaction_n from_o he_o to_o the_o contrary_a he_o shall_v hear_v of_o my_o recantation_n if_o i_o have_v not_o he_o shall_v see_v it_o by_o my_o silence_n 465._o mr._n fisher_n in_o his_o answer_n to_o nobody_o in_o 5_o word_n p_o 465._o so_o may_v you_o better_o signify_v your_o dissatisfaction_n with_o mr._n o._n his_o examination_n of_o your_o reply_n by_o your_o silence_n then_o endeavour_v his_o satisfaction_n by_o a_o print_a answer_n unto_o it_o and_o that_o upon_o his_o reason_n viz_o because_o he_o will_v not_o lose_v any_o more_o time_n from_o preach_v at_o i_o see_v i_o must_v say_v he_o if_o i_o meddle_v any_o more_o at_o the_o press_n with_o this_o subject_n second_o it_o will_v be_v to_o as_o little_a purpose_n and_o profit_n in_o respect_n of_o his_o party_n 4._o vestra_fw-la solum_fw-la legitis_fw-la vestra_fw-la amatis_fw-la cetera_fw-la causâ_fw-la incognitâ_fw-la condemnatis_fw-la cicer._n l._n 2._o the_o nature_n deorum_fw-la p._n 216._o medicamenta_fw-la nesciunt_fw-la &_o insani_fw-la sunt_fw-la adversus_fw-la antidotum_fw-la quâ_fw-la sani_fw-la esse_fw-la potuissent_fw-la aug._n confess_v l._n 9_o c._n 4._o who_o be_v so_o possess_v with_o prejudice_n against_o your_o cause_n by_o their_o teacher_n odious_a invective_n and_o exclamation_n against_o you_o your_o church_n and_o ministry_n as_o popish_a and_o antichristian_a that_o they_o will_v not_o only_o not_o buy_v but_o not_o so_o much_o as_o look_v upon_o a_o apology_n for_o you_o be_v sick_a of_o the_o perverse_a partiality_n which_o the_o orator_n reprove_v in_o some_o philosophical_a heretic_n of_o his_o time_n you_o read_v only_o what_o be_v write_v for_o your_o own_o side_n say_v he_o and_o love_v only_o what_o be_v your_o own_o for_o other_o thing_n you_o condemn_v they_o the_o cause_n unheard_a and_o as_o agustine_n observe_v of_o some_o of_o like_a distemper_a passion_n though_o so_o much_o the_o worse_o as_o error_n in_o divinity_n be_v worse_o than_o error_n in_o philosophy_n they_o know_v not_o what_o be_v physic_n for_o they_o and_o be_v mad_a say_v he_o against_o the_o medicine_n which_o shouldoure_v they_o of_o their_o madness_n such_o be_v many_o of_o the_o besotted_a proselyte_n of_o seduce_a teacher_n of_o the_o present_a age_n in_o respect_n of_o such_o froward_a and_o perverse_a opposite_n as_o both_o they_o and_o they_o leader_n for_o the_o most_o part_n manifest_v themselves_o silence_n may_v sometime_o be_v more_o seasonable_a than_o replication_n and_o rejoinder_n for_o 63._o quorum_fw-la dicta_fw-la contraria_fw-la si_fw-la toties_fw-la refellere_fw-la velimus_fw-la quoties_fw-la obnixa_fw-la front_n statuerunt_fw-la non_fw-la career_n quid_fw-la dicant_fw-la dum_fw-la quomodocunque_fw-la nostris_fw-la disputationibus_fw-la contradicant_fw-la quàm_fw-la infinitum_fw-la &_o aerumnosum_fw-la &_o infructuosum_fw-la etc._n etc._n aug._n de_fw-fr civit._fw-la dei_fw-la l._n 2._o c._n 1._o tom._n 1._o p._n 63._o as_o augustine_n put_v the_o case_n if_o we_o shall_v set_v ourselves_o to_o refel_v the_o contrary_a tenet_n of_o those_o who_o have_v harden_v their_o forehead_n so_o as_o to_o resolve_v they_o will_v have_v somewhat_o to_o say_v so_o they_o may_v any_o way_n gainsay_v our_o disputation_n how_o endless_a how_o grievous_a how_o unprofitable_a will_v our_o trouble_n be_v eight_o if_o there_o be_v a_o necessity_n that_o mr._n o._n shall_v be_v further_o answer_v by_o you_o or_o some_o body_n for_o you_o you_o have_v three_o son_n the_o young_a of_o who_o will_v be_v able_a enough_o to_o undertake_v he_o by_o a_o examination_n and_o conviction_n of_o his_o examination_n of_o error_n and_o slander_n of_o pride_n and_o vanity_n but_o neither_o will_v i_o have_v any_o of_o they_o put_v to_o so_o unprofitable_a a_o task_n because_o i_o hear_v they_o be_v all_o of_o they_o daily_o employ_v in_o better_a work_n therefore_o nine_o if_o after_o these_o animadversion_n upon_o he_o and_o his_o book_n it_o be_v requisite_a to_o take_v any_o further_a course_n to_o take_v down_o the_o tympany_n of_o mr._n o._n his_o swell_a self-conceit_n i_o shall_v propose_v it_o to_o the_o serious_a consideration_n of_o our_o venerable_a society_n at_o their_o meeting_n at_o kenelmworth_n to_o invite_v he_o to_o a_o public_a disputation_n there_o once_o again_o to_o be_v order_v and_o manage_v according_a to_o the_o rule_v foremention_v so_o you_o have_v my_o advice_n as_o you_o desire_v with_o what_o i_o further_o promise_v for_o which_o if_o any_o thing_n be_v worthy_a of_o your_o acceptance_n and_o they_o who_o be_v our_o brethren_n in_o interest_n and_o affection_n to_o the_o cause_n wherein_o you_o first_o and_o