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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

fewer than 187 several Treatises and then for the legitimate works how many are corrupted and which Edition of them is the truest and when that is known Where shall we finde the doctrines in difference betwixt the Papists and us discussed or resolved when many of them were altogether unknown in their dayes For those that speak any thing of the matters in question it is hard to judge what is their setled judgement in any point for sometimes they play the Orators flourishing with all figures of Rhetorick which must not be taken in a Dogmatical sense as l Dum essem adolescens imo penè puer Scripsi ad avunculum sed in illo opere pro aetate tunc lusimus calentibus adhuc Rhetorum studiis c. nunc jam cano capite arata rugis fronte c. Hieron ad Nepot Tom. 1. p. 11. princip Epist Hierome confesseth of himself in his Epistle to Nepotian While I was a young man said he and in a manner a Boy I wrote unto my Vncle Heliodorus but in that work I did but play with Rhetorical Studies and painted my paper with a Scholastical flourish now my head is grey and my forehead furrowed I write in another manner Which may give them cause in their elder years to retract and correct what they wrote when they were not so ripe in judgement being young So did Augustine in his two Books of Retractions And some things they have written in passion violently turning from one extreme to another So did Dionysius Alexandrinus and therefore m Basil Episi 41. Maxim Philosoph Basil compareth him to a Gardener who when a bough groweth crooked one way writhes it to be as crooked they other way And in examining of these humane Testimonies it will require time and judgement to distinguish particular Opinions from Church-doctrines Now by that time all assertions in difference have been carried through all Ages with all the distinctions and cautions until Luthers time the Protestants bringing their proofs and the Papists theirs and time allowed for each party to make Exceptions as they please how many years will be spent and at last how fruitless will all this labour be when if there were such consent to be found among them as the Papists brag of it would make but an humane Faith which might be subject to falshood as n Quod historici quidam meminerint eorum conciliorum non potest parere nisi fidem humanā cui potest subesse falsum Bellarm. lib. 2● Sacr. offic c. 25. verbo ult Tom. 3. Contr. p. 86. Bellarmine confesseth And yet both the subtile Jesuites and silly Papists by their Instruction call for this trial of Religion by bringing a Catalogue of Professors in all Ages on which the Jesuite Fisher so pertinaciously insisted o The relation of the Conference Jun. 27. 1623. p. 28. that he would not answer Dr. Featly touching Christ and his Apostles in the first Century unless he first brought in a Catalogue of Professors of Protestancy throughout all Ages And which shewed his impiety and absurdity in the highest degree in the Catalogue called for he would p Ibid. p. 27. not allow the Doctor to begin with Christ and his Apostles This plainly bewrayed the Jesuites great diffidence in his crazy cause and his craft to secure it from a due trial which this way he knew could never be effected and with this fallacy they have locked up their seduced Proselytes in misbelief so that we know not how to deal with them for they will not hear us in any thing unless we speak to the point of visibility in all ages and if we offer to answer them in a readier and surer way by the infallible Testimony of the Scriptures they will not accept of it yet notwithstanding all the advātage they have had by the predominacy of their power over Persons Books Presses to print and suppress what they please we need not decline that way of trial out of any distrust in our cause since there is yet so much upon record for us and against them that if such a tedious and dilatory discussion of our differences were to be undertaken by dispute face to face they could be no gayners in the utmost issue of it as we may well judge by Mr. Berkbeck in his Protestants evidences of the second Edition printed this year in Folio so much amended and augmented above the former in Quarto that I take it to be the best Book extant in that kind When upon deliberation a resolution is made what shall be disputed on The next consideration is concerning the Persons For the Persons and they are chiefly 1. Disputants 2. Presidents or Moderators 3. Notatories 4. Witnesses 5. For others whether admitted by choice or promiscuously without limitation or exception First for the Disputants in them these four qualifications are chiefly requisite 1. They must be learned 2. Of quick conceipt 3. Temperate not passionate or cholerick 4. Pious preferring Verity before Victory First they must be learned in the Learned Languages in Arts and Histories in Textual and Polemical Divinity for they may in conflict be put to it to make use of all the learning they have Secondly They must be quick in conceipt because they must presently without pause or study take their advantage either of objecting or answering Thirdly They must be temperate not passionate or cholerick like Costerus the Jesuite for Costerus of whom Doctor Halls observation is Dr. Hall 1. Decad of Epist Epist 5. p. 282. that he wa● more teasty then subtile more able to wrangle then to satisfie for passion will blind the judgment so as to make a man less fit to make use of his own strength or to take advantage of his Adversaries weakness besides if a man be cholerick it will make him forget the moderation of Michael the Arch-Angel in forbearing railing accusations Jude 9. And the caution of r Haec est modestia disputantis ut nulla adferatur audientibus ex disserentis sermone molestia Chrysost in Epist ad Hebr. ch 2. homil 3 Tom. 4. col 1679. Chrysostom which is that the modesty of the Disputants should be such that nothing drop from their mouths which may be offensive to the ears of the hearers which doth not only give distaste to them but takes off much from the acceptation both of the Disputant and the cause disputed one that appeared in Beza's disputation at Poysie when though he were an excellent learned man and pleaded the cause of Reformation very sufficiently against the Romanists was taken up and commanded to conclude s Hist Conci of Trent l. 5. p. 453. because in the matter of the Sacrament he grew into an heat which not only very much provoked the Prelates to indignation and disdain against the new Evangelists as the Cardinal of Tornon called him and his party but gave ill satisfaction to those of his own side but this exorbitancy of

Recusants and for the rest which were Noble men Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of quality with some few Divines there was not any one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they have openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the Protestant Religion by it and Mr. Doctor Featlys Refutation of an Answer to the Book intituled the Fisher c. p. 130. Buggs himselfe whose satisfaction by this conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church gave thanks after the Disputation to Sir Humph. Lynde for the meeting and assured him that he was well resolved now of his Religion that he saw plainly it was but the Jesuites bragging without proofs and whereas formerly by their Sophistical perswasions be was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth utterly disclaim the Popish Priests company and their Doctrine also Though it be a wicked thing to lye albeit it were for a good intent yea for the glory of God Iob 13.7 Rom. 3.7 8. and no wickedness as such is matter of laughter but rather of sorrow yet they mingle such folly and absurdity with their lying as the Priests of Baal did with worshipping of their Idol that they deserve to be derided for it as they were by the Prophet Elijah 1 King 18.26 27. and the more because it is frequent with them and by some of the approved as a pious fraud but sometimes their malignity produceth sad effects especially of publick disputes as is observable concerning the Dispute of that Illustrious and Incomparable man the Lord Morney as Doctor e Illustri incomparabili viro Domino Philippo Mornayo c. Epist dedicat praefix Critic Sacr. Rivet calls him and the Bishop of Eureux at Fountainbleau forementioned the Noble and Learned Lord confiding in the truth of his Allegations which were excepted against as hath been said wanting the use of his own Library and forced to make use of his Adversaries Books they brought him one Book over night of one Edition another in the morning of another and withal as f Doctor Sutlives Answer to Parsons l. 3. c. 12. and out of him Mr. Birkbeck in his Answer to the Antidotist added to the second Edition of the Protestants Evid p. 474. some have written put a powder into the places quoted the smell whereof was like to have cost him his life that he g Serres French Hist Anno 1600. p. 1053. fell very sick upon the first days conference so as they could proceed no farther is testified in the report of their Dispute in the French History and some of his Adversaries spake suspiciously of his sickness as if it were more in his mind then in his Body being astonisshed with the success of the praludium of that dayes Velitation which h Plessaeus attonitus successu praecedentis velitationis apud Gisbertum Voetium de desperata causa papatus l. 3. sect 2. p 681. col 2. Gisbertus Voetius disproves and concerning the cause of his disease he saith nothing of poyson because he takes it from such Authors of the Popish party as if they knew it to be true would rather conceal it if they could then let it come abroad into the world But the matter is probable enough First because there are such poysons as will not onely make one sick but kill him too though he neither eat them nor drink them as by anointing the leaves of a book with poyson whereby i Berkbeck ex Binfield ubi ante Averroes is said to have killed Avicen by poysoning of clothes arms seats saddles whereof k Joh. Mariana de Rege c. l. 1. c. 7. p. 67. Mariana the Jesuite shewes many examples in his book De Rege and Regis Institutiones yea a man may be killed by carrying a poysoned Torch l Anno 1574. Carolus Cardinalis Lotharingiae diem obiit non sine suspicione veneni facis per noctent praelatae pestifero odore cerebro corrupto Bucolz Index chronol p. 638. ex Thuano so was the Cardinal of Loraine a great and busie man in the Councel of Trent poysoned with the smoke of a Torch carried before him in the night Secondly it is not improbable that some of the Lord Morney or Plesses enemies might both know that there were such poysons and where to procure them and how to apply them Haereticis obstinatis beneficium est quod de hac vita tollantur nam quò diutiùs vivunt cò plures errores excogitāt plures pervertunt ma jorem sibi damnationem acquirunt Bellarm. Tom. 2. l. 3. dc Laicis c. 21. verbis ultimis for it seems by that we now noted of the Cardinal of Loraine which fell out An. 47.15 that destructive arts were neither unknown nor unpracticed at that time and the dispute betwixt the L. M. and the Bishop of Eureux was 26. years after Any such wickedness is the more probable of a Papist against a Protestant because of the Popish Doctrine which is this it is a benefit for obstinate Hereticks to be taken out of this life for the longer they l●ve the more errors they invent and the more they pervert and procure to themselves the greater damnation It was not to be expected but the disputation being broken off by the L. M. his occasion the Papists would insult and report whatsoever might make for their own glory and his disparagement as indeed they did but how poorly the Popish Bishop began to make good his charge and challenge against the L. M. the learned Reader may see by that which m Gisbert Voetius de desperata causa papatus l. 3. Sect. 2. c. 10. à p. 680 ad 692. Gisbert Voetius hath written of it in his Book Of the desperate cause of the Papacy and by the excellent n A refutation of calumnious relation of the conference of Monsieur Plessis and Monsieur of Eureux by one against N. D. I. P. 3. part printed by Arn. Hatfield An. 1600. Refutation of the Tract set out by the L. M. after the Dispute for his own just defence to which the Bishop his Adversary o Perronus ad illum librum nunquam respondit Ibid. And this was 35. years after for Voetius his book was printed An. 1655. and the dispute was An. 1600. and this Apologet. Treat soon after never made any answer But the most certain and remarkable issue or effect of this Dispute was that p Serres French History ad Ann. 1600. p. 1053. Canoy one of the Commissioners for the Dispute President in the Chamber of the Edict at Charters left his profession of the Reformed Religion and became a Romish Catholick many thought that Casaubon the other Protestant Commissioner and Greek Reader to King H. the Fourth would have followed the same course but he left not the world long in this opinion having

written to the Synod of Ministers assembled at Gargean that he was not so wretchedly instructed in piety as that for want of knowledge of the truth he should suffer himself to be carried away with every humour of Doctrine The causes of so little good success of Debates Disputes Conferences or Controversies of Religion betwixt parties of opposite opinions are divers in some the prevalent power of fansie or imagination above judgement is the cause that Arguments whether artfiicial of reason or inartificial of testimony will work little upon prejudicated fancy of the various working whereof we may read many observable particulars in the learned discourse of Picus Earl of Mirandula of r Jo. Picus Mirandula lib. de imaginatione vol. 2. operum p. 91. praecip c. 7 8 9. that Title Secondly With some custome is a great obstacle against the receiving of truth and thence it is that those who have been trained up in untruth from their Child-hood are with greatest difficulty convinced of it or converted from it We may see the refractoriness of this resistance in Peter Acts 10. who when v. 12,13 a vision was presented unto him shewing him several kinds of creatures clean and unclean and he had a command to kill and eat v. 13. Not so v. 14. Lord said he why so Peter he gives this reason of his refusal though the command came from Heaven because of his customary forbearance of forbidden meats I have never eaten any thing that is common and unclean Thirdly With others s Prava vel honoris vel pecuniae cupiditas animos disputantium invasit ut tanquam in pugna sola spectaretur victoria● Ludov● Vives de causis corrupt artium l. ● p. 38. a corrupt cupidity of glory or gaint is a great cause of their standing out against clear discoveries such will not yield to verity so long as they can with confidence and impudence make any shew or appearance of victory or outface the foil they have taken in dispute Fourthly Some withstand the truth in unrighteousness principally out of hatred and disdain of their Adversaries lest it should be thought that by them they were brought to yield unto it this was the humour of the Arch-Bishop and Cardinal of Capua who would yield to reform nothing though many corruptions were discovered t Nicol. Archiepis Capuanus Magna contentione clamabat ne quid omnino reformaretur ne Lutherani jactent quasi ab ipsis propemodum adacti illud fecerint Job Sl●idan Comment l. 12. p. 242. An. 1538. left the Lutherans should brag that they had been brought to reformation by them Fifthly Some account it their credit to be no changelings especially in Religion not knowing the difference betwixt constancy and obstinacy Sixthly And oft times it falls out that by the subtilty or eloquence of Disputants when they are somewhat evenly matched the Auditory is kept pendulous or irresolute even he perhaps for whose sake the Dispute or Conference was undertaken as u Ille cujus causa in congressum descendis Scripturarum ut cum dubitantem confirmes ad veritatem an nagis ad haeresim deverget hoc ipso motus quod te videat nihil promovisse aequo gradu negandi defendendi certe de pari altercatione incertior discedit nesciens quem Haereticum judicet Ter●ul praescript advers haereticos Tom. 1. c. 18. p. 170. Tertull. sheweth He saith Tertullian for whose cause thou descendest into a Controversie of Scripture that thou maist confirm him against doubting it is hard to say whether he tend more to Verity or to Heresie because he sees thou prevailest nothing the dispute going on in an equal degree of denying and defending certainly by such a parity in altercation he will depart more uncertain not knowing what he should judge to be Heresie Seventhly When Conferences and Disputations in Religion succeed not so well as good men would have them is because they are not ordered or managed in such a manner as they should be whereof I shall speak in the next Chapter as in its p●oper place In the mean time this good order will require that I now observe what good success hath been the issue of some disputations betwixt Michael and the Devil in Iude Christ and the Devil Matth. 4. By the way some take Michael the Arch-Angel for Christs Son for a created Angel to me it is which I will now neither determine nor discuss and for the disputes of Stephen and Paul they must needs have the better of their adversaries because they were not able to resist the Wisdome and the Spirit by which they spake Act. 6.10 not with any evidence of truth or appearance of reason yet when the truth was most illustriously set forth some were so blinded and hardned with their own malice and envy that they could not see it or would not confess themselves to be convinced by it is as when our Saviour had mightily and miraculously proved himself to be the Son of God by casting out Devils the Devil would not suffer his Adversaries to acknowledge it but stirred them up to impute the power of the holy Spirit to Beelzebub the Prince of Devils Matth. 12.24 And when Athanasius had a Disputation with Arius he would not yield that the power of Truth had prevailed but w Arius in quit nulli dubium est quin magicis artibus Athanasius non desinat judicum pervertere sensus c. Athanas disp contra Arium Laodiceae tom 2. col 393. most absurdly suggested that he managed his cause by Magical Arts. Notwithstanding the issues and effects of some Disputations have been more successful besides those which were carried on by a Divine Power against Humane or Devillish malignity as that of Octavius a Christian with Cecilius an Heathen set forth by Minutius Felix whereof we have observed before that some take that for a real story some for a pious discourse composed by Minutius himself Dialogue-wise under the borrowed names of x Caecilium superstitiosis vanitatibus etiamnum inhaerentem disputatione gravissima ad veram religionem reformavit Octavius sic Minutius Felix Conclus Dialog Tom. 9. Bibliothec. Patrum col 22. Octavius a Christian and Cecilius an Heathen the effect whereof whether it were historicall or poeticall or moral was such as was answerable to such convincing premises viz. that Cecilius converted by Octavius from superstitious vanities they parted with mutual congratulation and Minutius thereby accounted himself Felix y Post haec laeti hilaresque discessimus Caecilius quod crediderit Octavius quod vicerit ego quod ille crediderit hic vicerit Ibid. rejoycing with and for them both z Euseb Eccles Hist l. 6. p. 32. Eusebius and a Hierom. Catal. Script Eccles tom 1. p. 292. Hierome make report of Beryllus Bishop of Bostra in Arabia that he fell from the faith to strange doctrine of the Divinity and Humanity of Christ but conferring with Origen was convicted by manifest proof and

sutisfaction because he wants the books you direct him to or will not be at cost to buy them or trouble to peruse them and if he did read them would bring a resolution rather to cavil at them then to receive resolution from them When you have leisure to wash a Black-moor you may spare some time to spend upon your self-conceited and self-willed adversary Mr. J. O. for such an one will every judicious man judge him to be who reads with indifferency the Disputation and Examination published by him against you Fifthly you have too much precious work in your hands every day then that you can warrantably lay any part of it aside to contend with such an obstinate adversary as Mr. Onley is and I am verily perswaded and I assure my self many that know your various and uncessant pains for the souls of your people of Coventry are of my mind that thereby you do more good in a week there then you shall do by disputing with or writing against a perverse Anabaptist a whole year together Sixthly There are so many now engaged in the defence of the Churches of Christ for now Mr. O. sets himself against all the Churches of Europe and New England besides Old England that so much work cannot in reason fall to your share as still to manage the defence of them all against him or any such obstreperous talker especially having such a weighty burden of pastoral employment continually upon you Seventhly If you should set all aside and encounter him at the Press as you have done by Disputation in the Church it would be to little purpose or profit both in respect of Mr. O. and of his party For First for him unless you answer him in every particular how impertinent soever you shall still be under his exception and insultation to the great prejudice both of your cause person for he not onely taxeth you for deficient answering already saying to a great part of his answer you have not said one word and that your Reply passeth over just half his Answer without a word of Reply Exam. of Dr. ●… Rep. p. 28. Ibid. p. 115. But such is his insolency that as if he had authority to prescribe your part of the controversie as well as to dispose of his own he layeth this severe Law upon you if you contest with him again exactly to answer to each particular plainly and downrightly by reasons and Scriptures directly to the purpose or else to confess you cannot by saying nothing Neither so nor so For datur tertium a man may silently pais by an especial part of his Book written in defence of a precious truth Mr. O. his Exam of Dr. Br. Reply p. 69. as he phraseth it that is Universal Redemption because it is discovered to be a pernicious error and abundantly confuted by Doctor Kendall in answer to M. John Goodwins Book called Redemption Redeemed and another part as impertinent as that so often inculcated position of Mr. O. Of the first constitution of Churches and another part is answered by Dr. Br. before as that for the Vindication of the Ministry of England no need then of confessing you can say nothing Disp p. 33. because you do not say all things as he appointeth you Mr. Fisher made a more modest resolution concerning his adversary and himself If any one answer saith he and I have satisfaction from him to the contrary he shall hear of my Recantation if I have not he shall see it by my silence Mr. Fisher in his answer to Nobody in 5 words p 465. So may you better signifie your dissatisfaction with Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply by your silence then endeavour his satisfaction by a printed answer unto it and that upon his reason viz because he would not lose any more time from preaching at I see I must saith he if I meddle any more at the Press with this subject Secondly It would be to as little purpose and profit in respect of his party Vestra solum legitis vestra amatis caetera causâ incognitâ condemnatis Cicer. l. 2. de natur deorum p. 216. Medicamenta nesciunt insani sunt adversus antidotum quâ sani esse potuissent Aug. confess l. 9. c. 4. who are so possessed with prejudice against your cause by their teachers odious invectives and exclamations against you your Church and Ministry as Popish and Antichristian that they will not onely not buy but not so much as look upon an Apology for you being sick of the perverse partiality which the Orator reproveth in some Philosophical Hereticks of his time You read onely what is written for your own side saith he and love onely what is your own for other things you condemn them the cause unheard And as Agustine observeth of some of like distempered passions though so much the worse as errors in Divinity are worse then errors in Philosophy They know not what is Physick for them and are mad saith he against the Medicine which shouldoure them of their madness Such are many of the besotted Proselytes of seducing Teachers of the present age In respect of such froward and perverse opposites as both they and they leaders for the most part manifest themselves silence may sometimes be more seasonable then Replications and Rejoynders for Quorum dicta contraria si toties refellere velimus quoties obnixa fronte statuerunt non carere quid dicant dum quomodocunque nostris disputationibus contradicant quàm infinitum aerumnosum infructuosum c. Aug. de Civit. Dei l. 2. c. 1. Tom. 1. p. 63. as Augustine putteth the case If we should set our selves to refell the contrary Tenets of those who have hardned their foreheads so as to resolve they will have somewhat to say so they may any way gainsay our disputations how endless how grievous how unprofitable will our trouble be Eighthly If there were a necessity that Mr. O. should be further answered by you or some body for you you have three Sons the youngest of whom would be able enough to undertake him by an Examination and Conviction of his Examination of error and slander of pride and vanity but neither would I have any of them put to so unprofitable a Task because I hear they are all of them dayly employed in better work Therefore Ninthly If after these Animadversions upon him and his Book it be requisite to take any further course to take down the Tympany of Mr. O. his swelling self-conceit I shall propose it to the serious considerations of our Venerable Society at their meeting at Kenelmworth to invite him to a publick Disputation there once again to be ordered and managed according to the Rules forementioned So you have mine advice as you desired with what I further promised for which if any thing be worthy of your acceptance and theirs who are our Brethren in interest and affection to the cause wherein you first and