Counsel began not within seauen Monethes stoutly withstanding their decrée did euidently shewe what might be looked for at his handes and what his meaning was 60 Whether when the same Cardinall Contarine saide in a certayne writing of his to the Princes of the Empire that he hoped that it woulde come to passe that the Protestaunts woulde retorne to the lap of the church of Rome and they likewise in a wryting of theirs made answere againe in a wryting of theirs that of al men they woulde neuer doe so whether afterwarde I saye néeded anye talke betwéene them for the matter 61 Whether any ought in these dayes to be offended bicause the doctrine of the Gospel séemeth to bring dissentions and alterations sith that Christe saith that the same is a singuler token and most plaine demonstration of his worde which is to sende the sword and not peace and to set the sonne agaynst the father and the daughter against the mother 62 Whether that argument be of force which many in these dayes do holde â–ª that it is not to be beleued that God woulde haue our forefathers to erre vntyll this tyme and to be without the true doctrine for as much as by the same reason it may be asked why the same God hath suffred Africa and all Asia to fall into so horrible darknesse â–ª after they lost the lighte of the Gospell and newe doctrine brought in For it muste be confessed that all that remayned after the preaching of the Gospell was onely in Europa the thirde and least parte of the worlde 63 Whether such as are in these dayes put to death in many places be verye heritiques in dede and albeit they be suche whether they ought to be putte to death or no for that Christ doth expresly commaund that we suffer the cockle to grow with y e corne not to roote the same vp 64 Whether the decrées of the Fathers of the Counselles ought to be referred and examined by the prescript rule of the gospel syth Paule so plainly said That other foundation than that was already ought not to be layed yet shoulde it come to passe that many ther vpon would buylde some golde some stouble some woode 65 Whether those solepmne and ordinarie disputacions of the Sorbonists doe any thing profite to the vnderstanding of the holy scripture syth they are altogether idle questions of vayne things crooked more than supercelestiall crabbed and Seraphicall the which neither they that speake nor those that heare them do at any tyme vnderstande and albeit they do vnderstande them yet are they neuer a deale the better by them or the better learned 66 Whether if the Pope woulde at any tyme suffer in a generall counsell if any shall hereafter be any one article to be pulled away from him that then it might not be truely saide affirmed that he is not the Churche forasmuche as hitherto he standeth stiffe in defence that the Church can not erre 67 Whether the Church that is to saye a congregacion of people may erre forasmuche as it is propre to mans nature to erre fal Then if it can not erre for that they allege whereâ—two or thrée are gathered togyther in my name c. Whether then the Consistories of Popes Cardinalles and Byshops may erre syth these many yeares they haue called theyr counselles not to sette forthe Christes glory but more more to confirme and stablish their ryches and dignitie syth y â— the scripture telleth that in the latter times should spring horrible errors 68 Whether in matters perteyning to faith and our Saluation any other thing ought to be commaÌ„ded beside the gospell syth Christ coÌ„maunded that his onely sonne should be heade and none other And sithe also that Christe commaundeth vs to beware of men and of their doctrine 69 Whether syth we plainely sée into howe fowle stincking abhominable errours we are fallen synce we lefte the prescript rule of the Gospell and opened the way to al mans traditions we ought not to haue great cause seing so many mischieues and incoÌ„ueniences before our eies to become wyse to giue place casting aside al hautinesse of minde giue ouer our selues wholly to him whiche onely cannot erre who commaunded that in his commaundements we neyther tourne asyde to the right or left hande 70 Whether it ought to be confessed that it is a great miraculous misterie that religion which now is in disputacion hath of so small fâ—eble beginnings as by one man only who was notoriously condempned in the beginning and counted as an abiected to y e whole world or rather as a praye layed forth to al meÌ„ hath so sprede it self and growne to such a greatnesse that such as haue bene against it withstoode it may not iustely be affearde if they haue any witte at all 71 Whether such as will séeme to fauour the gospell thereby to be thought that they know much and do for all that flatter such as styre vp persecutions may be compared to Herode who made more conscience to breake his vnlawfull promise to a Harlotte than to saue the lyfe of so holy a man 72 Whether that saying of the Gospell who loueth his soule in this worlde shall loose it c. may not aptly agrée with the fyne worldly wise heads of oure tyme who for the doctrine of the Gospell will not for any little suspicion therof receiue losse or displeasure but liue pleasauntly and quietly kepe their riches and promotions vntouched 73 Whether suche as in these dayes do confesse y â— there are errours and in the meane tyme do not only contempne but also condempne such as do shewe them those errours be lyke vnto the Pharisies that said to him that was borne blinde and had receyued his â—ight of Christ we know that God spake to Moyses but who this is meaning Christe we know not nor whence he commeth 74 Whether suche as for certeine opinions in religion haue styrred vp horrible persecutions are become so madde therein that more crueltie cannot be deuised may not very wel if they wil acknowledge their offence confesse that they are the begynners authors of so outragious mercilesse butcherie and slaughter 75 Whether that saying of the Gospell least haply the Romaines come take away oure place Iohn xj do hytte iuste such Kings and Princes as will be borne in hande that if they receyue the gospell it will come to passe that their people will rebel and not be obedient 76 Whether that whiche Paule speaking of the doctrines of Diuelies whiche he in spirite foresawe shoulde arise do serue right for the Papists who for their tradicions slea and in sundry sortes do torment men which is the very nature of Sathan â–ª who is delyted with murther and blonde and whether the Protestants who persecute not their enimies are not much to be preferred before the Papists especially syth they haue both strongth and rychesse
is nowe after she became to be Diefied And thou shalt finde that I doubt not without cause whether she that is set vpon the Aultars be the selfe same that was mother of the Lord. Marforius Make thou Pasquine this comparison for herein thou hast a better iudgement than I beside that by vs Canonistes comparisons are couÌ„ted odious Pasquine So I wil sith it pleaseth thée but aunswere me a little to that I will aske thée for so the matter shall be the clearer what deest thou thinke that the mother of the Lorde was in times past Marforius If we will beleue the scriptures she was a Uirgin moste chaste moste modest in behauiour moste holy most humble aboue all other creatures Pasquine And also very well learned in holy scripture full of charity towarde the poore without anye iote of couetousnesse without desire of gayne or ryches not deuouring the price of the Dogge not estéeming Beades nor costly garmentes Is it not so Marforius Marforius Yea truely but what callest thou the price of the Dogge Pasquine That which by vowe for wicked requestes if they come to passe is giuen to hir Marforius I vnderstand thée well Pasquine Thou séest therfore what she was once now tel me what thou thinkst by this y â— with so much wax with so much golde siluer with so many chaynes brouches with so many perfumes the world doth at this day honor Marforius I can not tel what to say of hir Pasquin I maruel of thée y â— thou sayest y â— canst not tel what to say of hir in so cleare a matter Marforius Maruell not at all thereat For this Religion wherein I haue so long time liued hath in such sorte blinded me y â— albeit I would I can not nor dare not giue this iudgemeÌ„t Thou knowest what a great matter it is to be borne bred vp in any Religion many times it is of greater force to be bred vp in it than to be born in it as we se of the Ianichers Beside that I doubt that if I should say any thing against hir she would forthwith be reuenged vpon me Pasquine If thou wouldest continue in thy false Religion approuing it to be good by this meaâ—es the Turkes and Moores will continue in their owne yet shalte thou not be able to say that theirs is false But yet for all this thine opinion doest thou not graunt me that she is not the very same Marforius Thou talkest with me after the maner of Socrates in his disputatioÌ„s vnderstanding not the end where about thou goest Pasquine HarkeÌ„ therfore Marforius Of force thou must graunt me this that all Sainctes ought to follow the eternall father and his sonne Iesus Christ. Marforius This can I neuer deny Pasquine The father is not desirons of reuenge as thou séest for he maketh his sonne to rise vpon the bad the good Marforius Oh what great gâ—â—dnesse is that Pasquine Beside that christ dyed for sinners of whom he should rather haue bene reuenged prayed for them that put him to death Moreouer thou hast his mercifull promise coÌ„firmed with an othe which sayth I will not the death of a sinner but rather that he repent and liue Marforius Oh true benignity and humblenesse of heart Pasquine Thou sayest well thou wilte graunt me also that Christ commaunded those that be his that they should learne of him to be méeke and humble of heart Marforius It is true Pasquine Wherfore then art thou afrayd y â— the Sainctes as cruel Tirans desirous of reuenge would doe thée harme Marforius Bycause I sée that in manye places they haue done straunge and cruell miracles Pasquine Doest thou thinke that if they had bene aliue they woulde so haue done Marforius No not I for if their Historyes be true a man may sée that they were moste wonderfully pacient euen vnto the death Pasquine How canst thou then beleue that these Saintes that I speake of and those I spake of before are due selfe thing Marforius Their miracles make me to beleue it Pasquine What knowest not thou that Antichrist with his monstruous miracles must put the worlde in confusion Marforius I haue heard say so but this is yet looked for to come with the Messias of the Iewes Pasquine And if he were here nowe wouldest thou any whit the better consider these myracles Marforius And howe can I knowe that he is here nowe Pasquine By the signes that Christ hath taught vs among the whiche there is one moste manifest where he sayth when you shall sée the abhomination of desolation standing in the holy place Marforius And what meaneth that Pasquine It meaneth that wheÌ„ we shall sée in the place where God onely ought to be honoured that other Goddes are worshipped That is the temple of Antichrist and the abhomination For what thing can be more against Christ than to driue Christ out of his temple and to put other in his place to whome it is attributed to worke miracles and many other notable feates And why doe these miracles so much moue thée knowest thou not that where they are ryfest there is the lesse signe of faith and commonly those signes are foretokens of the destruction of common wealthes and decay of Cityes For these Gods seing the most high god angry for their naughty Religion and that he will altogether ouerthrow this worldly common wealth to the ende the people should not waxe wyser so espye their doinges they kéepe them entangled with these miracles to the which they runne like shéepe for their last refuge in their troubles And euen so was it by Baal in the olde Testament that the more the Lorde was by that kinde of worshipping honoured by the prophets so much the more did the miracles increase it was sene y â— Baals miracles had theÌ„ greater force than the worde of the Lorde so that vntill the captiuitie of Babilon for feare and for the Religion of miracles the Iewes could not rid them selues of the worshipping of Baal nay they said sometime that bicause they had left of worshipping of him that was cause of all their miseryes as may be sene in Ieremy where he sayth Since we lefte of to do sacrifice to the Quéene of heauen we haue had scarsitie of all thinges And to the ende thou knowe it these Goddes hurte none but such as beleue in them but to those that dispise them they can do no hurt at all for if they could they would long sithens haue destroyed all Almaine and all the townes of the Svvychers who haue destroyed these Goddes and chaunged the prices of them into a better vse Marforius Sith thou sayest that Antichrist raigneth now couldest thou shewe me what he is Pasquine I can righte well shewe thée him if thou canst and wilte abide
therfore al in a great sturre a Romane Abbot stode vp and sayd heare ye fathers know ye not that it is not lawfull to bring the wiues of the olde Testament into the newe but it behoueth vs that in steade of wyues we haue benefices and fat liuings inough Therefore will I that ye vnderstand that place thus Let the Byshop be the husbande of one vvife that is to say let him haue at the least one benefice And so shall we finde a place for our Byshop And as for the rest that troubleth you so muche care ye not at all for he néede not care whether he hath one wife of his owne that may haue wiues inoughe of other mens Marforius O there was a good Doctour Pasquine Euen such as be all But among the rest I sawe one that is accoumpted a piller of the Church who ranne so at randon through out the whole Gospell and with such boldnesse that he set all at hauocke Afterward he gaue him selfe to write against Matrimony then after that he opened his clothes before him and began to knock him selfe on the breast and that done he stoode vp and helde the forme or proportion of a Church in his hande Marforius Why did he beate him selfe Pasquine Bycause he did that which God commaunded not as he had done against that which God had cōmaūded that is to say speaking against Matrimonie Marforius Knowest y ◠not the names of any of them Pasquine Yes and if I recken them to thée thou wouldest wonder at it but I will name one or two of them to thée bycause I will not léese so much time for I haue many other things to tel thée There was Thomas of Aquine who sought if it were possible to defend his disputation De Dulia Hyperdulia Marforius I remember that disputation It is vengeaunce subtile Pasquine Who knoweth not that he had nede worke subtillye that will make all men beleue that vnder the forme of the Diuell a man may worship Christ And that is when as vnder the figure or Image of the diuel which thou séest before thée thou doest for all that Imagine with thy selfe that there is Christ and yet meanest thou not to worshippe that figure or stocke which is in thy sight but Christ whom thou hast vnder that figure conceyued in thy minde Marforius How can that be done Pasquine Howe coulde it be done in the olde time that when they offered an Oxe conceyued God in their imgination and vnder the Image of that Oxe worshipped him Thinkest thou that men haue at any tyme bene so foolishe that they thought that an Oxe was God and notwithstanding that there was no maner of resemblaunce in the worlde betwene an Oxe and God they conceyued for al that God in their imagination through the Image of that Calfe and being so conceyued did worship him And this is y ◠subtile Hyperdulia of Thomas Aquine that thou ioyne God with a stocke and that thou worship the stock as God euen as the Iewes worshipped the Oxe for God Marforius This is in dede a very subtile but no Christian opinion Pasquine And yet is it defended in these dayes as an article of our faith Marforius I knowe that they will maintaine all such things as ought to be condempned cōdemyne all such as ought to be maintayned Pasquine This therfore was it which Saint Thomas of Aquine so botched vp for if the truth of his matter mighte be knowen abrode their carued stockes their pictures their Images their paintinges and their Idolls all would be in great daunger the gaine that is gotten thereby would sone he at an ende Marforius Thou sayest the very truth for euen for the religious care of their gaine not for any other cause doe the Priestes séeke to maintaine all that which God so much forbiddeth Pasquine Harde beside Thomas Aquine I saw his master sit to whome all the rest of his order vsed much reuerence Marforius Howe was he called Pasquine Me thought they called him Albertus Magus Marforius I know not who that should be Pasquine It is that holy Doctor whiche so profoundlye disputch of the secrets of women Marforius Thou vnderstodest them not wel he is called Albertus Magnus and not Magus who wrote also of the wonders of the worlde Pasquine It may be that I mistoke it albeit he may be called after which sorte you will for he was without cause called Magnus being a maruellous great Doctor and a great Magician Marforius And what did his Disciples there with him Pasquin They were entreating of him that he would goe Ambassador to the City of Coleyn Marforius For what purpose Pasquine Bycause it was sayde that the Byshop there fauoured to much the Gospell and did as became a true shepherde and went about with the helpe of Bucer Melanchton to reforme his Church according to the rule of the Gospell Marforius But what would they haue had Maister Albert doe there Pasquine That he should séeke if it were possible to let y ◠going forward of so holy a worke But he might haue gone thither and haue lost all his labour for albeit the City stande somewhat stiffe the shéepe for all that will follow their good shepherde Marforius Of such good Bishops should they much nede who hitherto haue bene deceyued by these false Gods But sawest thou any of those newe Doctours Pasquine Whom meanest thou to be the new Doctours Marforius Fysher B. of Rochester Ecchius Pighius Albert of Vdine Byshop of Chioggia Pasquine Rochester is not only a Doctour but also a Martir therfore shall we finde him in the Quéere of the Martirs But Iohn Ecchius and Pighius I saw not and by that I coulde learne they were yet kept in their Purgatory which they so stoutly defended Marforius Why are those defendours of Purgatorye serued with the same sause for their labour Pasquine I pray God they be not cast into the bottomelesse pitte of euerlasting fire for none can defende other Purgatory than Christes bloude without cruell iniurie and blasphemie to Christ for so it happeneth to such as serue cruel Tyrannes turnes that they them selues first féele the smart of their wicked deseruings Perillus Bull may teach them Marforius But doest thou thinke that they shall at any tyme come vp hither and be placed among the Gods Pasquine Of Pighius I dare not say bycause he is much estéemed among those Gods for his eloquence and singuler learning But sure I thinke that Ecchius shall neuer be able to climbe to heauen Marforius And why not Pasquine Bycause he had a fowle great paunch that hong a foote a halfe ouer his Codpiece and that will be a great let to him And thou knowest Marforius that naturall writers affirme that heauy things of their owne nature go down to the Centre which thing he right wel vnderstoode that made his
or such lyke The Patriarches striue who should be chiefe Peters see at Antioche One Pope speaketh against another The Popes vaine gloriouâ— titles Babylon the heaâ— of al abhomination Petrarke calâ—eth Rome Babylon Prophetes Num. 22. This worde Prophete hath two meanings The differeÌ„ce betwene the Prophete and the Doctor The Popes Prophetes are not inspired by God A blessed companie if a man should rake Hell A vertuous studie of a holy Father Like will to like The Pope doubteth of the immortalitie of the soule Qualiâ— Pater talis filius A very proper practise not vnlyke the deuises vsed by the holy mayde of Kent The Knaues will tell tales out of the schole Marke the knauerie of this Coll Prophete These knaues haue manye such knackes in their Bougets No true Prophets Iere. 14. Math. 7. The goodnesse of these Romish fruites Luc. 13. The court of the Popes heauen Iust iudgement and voyde of feare when sentence was giuen against the Diuell * Iohn 14. †Act. 10. The office and duery of an aduoâ—ate * 1. Iohn 2. †1. Timo. 2. Maht 3. Great iniurie done to Christ when any other aduocate is sought 1. Iohn 2. * Iohn 17. Heb. 10. Math. 10. Bartolus and Baldus Saint Michaell wayer of soules A vengeance craftie aduocate that could match the Deuill Masses and such trash shewed forth in euidence The crafte of the Diuell Michaell beateth the deuil Great honor and ioy when the Pope winneth a soule Purgatorie iustely called Pagatorie Michaell in loue with a Bul looke Legenda aurea The fable of Saint Michaell Lucanus the Poete Fryers and lyers shaped both in one moulde Draffe good ynough for Hogges Saint Michaelâ— fable â–ª a figure of Gods Iustice. The worlde abused by Friers Lucian What the Gospell causeth Friers vse violent persuasions Beati qui non ridâ—runt et credideruâ—t The Pallace of the Popes Heauen The fashion of it The Popes Saints can not abide the light The Popes heaueÌ„ resembled to an Alchimistes shoppe The Sonne and the Mone shine both at once Straunge vertue of Beadâ— that can darken both Sonne and Mone The discription and vse of Beades Ipocrisie alwayes carieth Beads The Counsell of all Saints The scope and end of their counsell Why in olde tyme so many counsels were so easily called Why counsels in these dayes can not be assembled The effect of â—â—unsels Verbum dominimanâ—â— in eternum Psal. 2. Equalitic woulde be vsed in tryall of waightie matters The Pope neuer fighteth on euen hand Who be Heretiques and who be no Heretiques after the popes iudgement The Dutchmen first smelled out the Popes craftie conueyaunce The song of the Popes Saints Psal. 2. Math. 11. Politique fetches vsed in the Counsell Saint Ioice patrone of fruitefull succession Spiritually begotten children meete to maintaine the Popes spiritual kingdome The weighti est matter of all the counsell Charlâ—s theâ—â— suspected by the Pope Ferdenando vpon condicion shal haue ayde from the Pope Popishe Doctors The Popes heauen builded vpon Ignoraunce Ignoraunce mother of all errors The duetie of a king Fraunces the French King The Popes counsell to Kings and rulers Marke howe Pasquine prophecieth of Fraunce Apoc. 20. The way to appease Gods wrath Ioan. 4. Auignion vsurped by the Pope Machomet and the Pope are brothers The King of Englande How the possessions of the Church shuld be bestowed â— Thess. 3. Why possessions were giueÌ„ to the Church A pollicie vsed to preserue the Popes Kingdome The reading of the Scripture bringeth knoweledge Why so many VenetiaÌ„s are made Cardinalles Carefull magistrates ouer their people The Pope abuseth al magistrats The Pope maketh all Princes his Butchers and hangmen The great iustice of the Venetians The spiritualtie doth rule raigne eche where Truth can not be heard where such â—irannie râ—ygneth Antichrist and his members the cause of disorders The Charitiâ— of Pasquine Good members of a common wealth By what way the Venetians might become greater Godes enimies fauoured and his frendes persecuted Iohn 18. Luc. 23. A diuelishe decre of the Popes saintes The oration of one of the Saintes to this Diuell their Messanger 〈…〉 The Popes saints fil al the worlde with warres and mischief Rome the Diuels dweâ—ing place The cause of this diuellysâ— decre The Order or Queere of the Aungels The 〈◊〉 orders of the Popes Aungelles Christ is not in the councell Christ goeth to playe like a childe The marchaâ— dises of the Popes store houses God graunt they be neuer better stored Pasquiue meaneth that our Peter peÌ„s and other our proffits the pope had hens were spent vpoÌ„ the mayntenaÌ„ce of wheres and bardasses in Rome The Popes keyes are the keyes of the storehouses Gods worde must destroye the Popes heauen Apoc. 1. Pasquine goeth out of the Popes heauen and goeth vp to Gods heauen A wonderful straunge sight Pasquine setteth forth the punishment of the Neuters Neutralitte must be vtteâ—â—ly auoided Weatherâ— cocks and turncotes are not to be beleued Certain Italians true christians Hebr. 6. Peter de Charles a wether cocke Farellus a true preacher Num. 22. The heauenly harmonie Plato and Aristotle differeth in opinion Christen philosophie The way to knowe God Psal. 19. The varietie of Gods works declare his greate power The Pâ—pe would haue his dead Images to be our liuely scholemasters The dead picture of the vergin Marie liuely counterfeited after a Popes whore Christian Regions Apoc. 4. The description of the true Heauen Apoc. 5. The song of true saintes 1. Peter 4. Equalitie among the true Saintes Apoc. 5. Christ is the way and the gate to Heauen Iohn 10. Iohn 14. Dionisâ—us Areopagita 1. Tim. 6. The Quene of Heauen Psal. 45. The Quene of Heauen iâ— the Churche and not the virgin Mary Popes haue vsurped the authoritie of the Churche The Quenes apparell 1. Cor. 12. Of mariage Ephe. 5. Io. 1. 3. 15. Iac. 4. The worlde contrarie to Christe 3. Reg. 19. Rom. 11. Iohn 14. The saintes be at reste Ap. 4. et 7. Esay 42. The wedding garment Esay 61. Mat. 22. Antichrist 2. Thess. 2. 3. Reg. 22. 2. Para. 18. 2. Cor. 11. Watchwords giuen in the Scripture * 1. Thess. 5. ‡ 1. Ioh. 4. Demaundes of our Ladie Marforius wisheth Pasquine to be Pope The scholes of Pasquine Christ the onely Mayster Mat. 23. Coloss. 1. Ephe. 1. et 4. Apoc. 5. 7. Christ onely gouernour Mat. 8. Io. 14. Mat. 7. 1. Io. 2. Heauenly thinges must not be measured according to mans brayne Luc. ii A maruelous yea almost a miraculous chaunge The â—â—iage to Hell Pasquine a farre trauailed man Pasquine a Curious searcher of thinges Pasquine goeth to sâ—e hell The way to Hell is sone found out Math. 7. Math. 16. The description of Hell What and whome Pasquine sawe in Hell Hell gates neuer shutte Al may goe into hell that will but none may come out Of what stuffe belgates were made Caine the first that entred his father the deuilles Kingdome Caines and his successors
Leafe Side Line Faultes Correction 20 1 4 practise prayse ibideÌ„  6 honor humour 22 2 14 friers frieries 26 1 32 Porzolo Pozzolo 28 1 21 22 Putanies Putaines 30 1 16 then that 36 1 16 is doth 39 1 17 none woune 41 2 7 his this ibideÌ„ 1 26 was without was not w tout 46 2 16 didst take didst not take 47 1 7 his the 51 1 14 Hostiences Hostiensis ibideÌ„  19 Cardinall carnall 54 1 4 faction function 56 2 19 breaching bréeching 58 1 23 Sandanapalus Sardanapalus 62 1 20 he in here in 67 1 5 Bosarie Rosarie 71 1 22 vessels Uassalles 87 2 5 word world 89 2 23 beggers beggeries ibideÌ„  29 all a 92 1 28 which with ibideÌ„   ruinesse reuenewes 97 1 32 Swythians Scythians 111 1 21 heade hearde 112 1 31 Whether the Whether if the ibideÌ„ 2 9 dust they dust if they Pasquine in a Traunce Marforius GOD saue you Mayster Pasquine my most pleasant companion Pasquine What Marforius and wherabout goe you Marforius Thou diddest so much delite me the last yeare with thy coÌ„munication that I am now come purposely to tarye with thée â— while that thou mayst once again tell me of thy vision wherof this other yere thou toldest me which pleased me so much as it would not grieue me to heare it a thousand tymes much lesse twise Pasquine And I wil tel thée it againe with good will adding therevnto other things which then I had no time nor remembred me to tel thée aske on hardly and I will fully satisfie thée Marforius Tell me firste of all howe it is possible that thou that arte of stone shouldest get vppe into heauen Pasquine Is it not a greater maruell that some of these lubberlye greasie Fryers Parsons Bishoppes Abbots and other foule gorbellied fathers shoulde get vp thither which are so heauye that Elephantes are scarce able to carye them Marforius What these are men but much more do I maruell when I thinke what the Goddes should haue to do with stones Pasquine And I pray thée what haue the Gods to do with Lions Bulles and Beares which are perillous Beasts Yea and flying foules too and yet for all that in our dayes are they caried aboute in coÌ„panie of the Gods Marforius What we talke of the Goddes of the Christians let vs nowe leaue Lucians fables Pasquine I am content that thou speake of the Gods of the Christians doest thou not sée that they are for the most part made of stone Marforius I take theÌ„ for no Gods Pasquine I know not how y u takest them but wel I wote that the coÌ„mon people now a dayes taketh theÌ„ so Marforius And who I pray thée is so folish as to worship Gods of stone Pasquine I can not tel thée whether this be folishenesse or no but as farre as I fée this is of all men accoumpted godlinesse and if we loke well we shall finde by their garmentes and furniture that they are worshipped and this folly hath bene alwayes in mens mindes as we sée that among those of olde time was the God Terminus of whom a man may reade so many foolishe tales that it woulde make him weary Marforius By my truth thou sayst truly I wel remeÌ„ber that I haue read of that God Terminus in what estimation the people of those dayes had him and yet for all that me thinkes that men of oure time should not worship these stones as they did Pasquine Yea but let vs a while leaue this a part and stand thou stil and heare me Marforius I heare thée wel say on Pasquine Thou knowest Marforius y â— sith I was first acquainted with the world I haue alwayes sought with my whole study to bring men from euil to well doing and moste chieflye Princes and greate men who haue now a dayes their eares so full of flatterers talke and of those flies that Diogenes speaketh of that no voyce except it be of stone can any more enter into them For which cause so often and so loude haue I cryed that I haue enforced my selfe to enter into their eares Marforius But what a presumption is this of thée that will doe this without the Popes licence Pasquine God defende that I should be presumptuous but thou knowest that it hath bene alwayes necessarie to say and set forth the truth the which sithe it lieth as buried and that there is none to declare it it followeth of necessitie by the saying of the gospel that we stones must cry out Marforius I knewe not that till now But I will therfore from henceforth so worke that I will be no longer dumbe But follow thou thy talke Pasquine And so seing that I cast awaye and in maner lost all my labour I began somewhat to doubt in what sort the thinges of the world were gouerned and I doubted of the prouidence of God of his iustice seing the affliction of the iust and the prosperitie of the wicked and within my selfe I sayde what may he be that hath the gouernance of thinges amonges men and I thought it shoulde be some other thing farre different from that which gouerneth the thinges of nature Marforius This is euen the right way to become an Epicure But what diddest thou doubt whether there were one onelye that gouerneth al Pasquine Yea that I doubted Marforius And how came that doubt in thy braine Pasquine I saw that God in nature is a thing moste orderlye beyonde all maruell I sawe all thinges in their times conceyue bring forth flourishe and giue fruite rendering as it were last of al thankes to nature after this sort and afterward againe to corrupt and returne to their mother and firste originall I sawe the Heauen and the Starres not a whitte to chaunge from their wonted course neither rather or later to rise or go downe I saw the earth the sea and the other Elementes to be verye well deuided and their chaunges from one to another for the generation and corruption of things to be exâ—eadinglye well ordered and if I did but beholde the workmanship of man yea or of a flie or of an Empt I was astonished at y â— proporcionate comelye wonderfull vnspeakeable cunning of the Creator moste of all seing all thinges done with so greate reason that nothing in the composition of the nature of things could either be put to or taken away without marring the whole worke so that being drowned in the consideration hereof I cried Great art thou Lorde and maruellous vvorthy to be praysed there is no ende of thy greatnesse Afterward if I considered the life of men and their companie keping their states and conditions so without order and often tymes euillye disposed I coulde not but nedes beleue that some blinde Diuell had had the gouernaunce hereof and that did Christ cause me so to thinke who
being king of al together sayeth notwithstanding that he is not king of this world saying My kingdome is not of this vvorlde and if it vvere of this vvorlde my ministers vvoulde surelye fight And in manys other places the same sayeth calling Sathanas king and Prince of this worlde and of this darkenesse saying Novv shal the Prince of this vvorld be cast out And in the desert Sathan promised him all the kingdomes of the vvorlde if he vvould fall dovvne and vvorship him Marforius I pray thée Pasquine enter not into this heresie that Christ is not Lord ouer the world hast thou not read that in the name of Iesus al knées shoulde bowe of things in heauen of things in earth and things vnder the earth Pasquine Thou knowest not yet what this worde worlde meaneth in the scripture Marforius And what meaneth it else but this vnmeasurable frame or engine Pasquine Yes Marforius an other thing the Scripture calleth the world the ambitioÌ„ the couetousnesse the lechery and all those other thinges that sauour of nothing else but the flesh so that the flesh the worlde the diuell are those thrée furies that with their firebrandes and their Serpentes make an entermingling and confusion of all thinges Marforius Why then these fatte Friers that say they forsake the worlde â—arye it with them into the Monastaries Pasquine Yea out of doubt it is not possible to sée the worlde better than in the Monasteries where a man shall sée nothing else but affections and passions of minde with the which they seke to aduaunce them selues or to driue the one the other out of the doores Marforius Thou sayst truth but follow on a little Pasquine Bicause I coulde not therefore knowe the nature of this God that séemeth to gouerne worldlye thinges so blonderingly I sought to know him by his officers and seruauntes for that it séemed to me that he gouerneth al thinges by meanes of certaine demigods Marforius Whom callest thou demigods Pasquine Those that the grosse people call Saintes Marforius Beware I pray thée that thou speake nothing against the saintes but well for thou knowest in how great estimation they be with the worlde Pasquine God kéepe me from speaking euil of his frendes I go not about to tell thée other than the truth neither shall I at any time be charged to haue spoken any thing that is euill or wicked except it be by suche as woulde call the truth wickednesse Marforius Lette it not séeme straunge to thée that there be nowe a dayes suche men as doe labour so to call it Pasquine For suche kinde of crueltie I care not I knowe that the truthe can not be but truth Marforius Returne a little to thy purpose for me thought thou was framing an argument à minori ad mains or to be better vnderstoode à delegato ad ordinarium Pasquine Thou speakest like a right Canonist And to satisfie thy desire I say that finding no meane to cleare my selfe of this doubt with my selfe I sayde what the Diuell of holinesse goodnesse or equitie finde I in these saintes that now a dayes are so worshipped of the world that haue taken in hand the gouernment of worldly things Who if they nowe be or do that which sometime they were or that is sayde they were or did I shall sone consider what is the order of this gouernement if not yet haue I cause to doubt And forthwith it came in my minde to make a comparison of the lynes of Saintes and of their state while they were lyuing with their presente â—â—ate nowe hoping by this meanes to sée if the Saintes that liued sometime be the selfe same that they say raigne nowe in heauen and together with Christ doe gouerne al or else whether those be different and haue there aboue other nature and other condicions Marforius And what an arrogancie is this of thée wilte thou be a iudge ouer Saintes Pasquine No no frende Marforius let it neuer please God that I shoulde be a iudge ouer his frendes who can not sinne any more neither be spotted with any worldly affection but I would séeke onlye as I sayd if those be they that gouerne so or else if there be other vnder their name that haue none other thing of the saint but the bare name Marforius What is that thou sayest what a presumptuous boldenesse shoulde this be thinkest thou that there be any that vsurpe the names of saintes and vnder that godly name deceiue the world Pasquine As though the thing were to bée doubted Knowest thou not that the Diuell vnder the forme of an Angell of light worketh all his deceytes for if he shoulde shewe him selfe plainly as he is none woulde beleue him Knowest thou not that Superstition and Hipocrisie are the Diuelles Retorique with the whiche he maketh the worlde beleue al that he listeth Beholde the Fryers I pray thée thinkest thou that they woulde euer haue bene able to make the worlde beleue so many manifest falshoodes and foolishe â—oyes if they had not learned this art of the Diuell Marforius Why then their coates hoodes and sundry colours are they deuised by the Diuel Pasquine Yea out of doubt for if they were the same that they woulde be counted what nede shoulde there be of such disguised garmentes the whiche say they do signifie that whiche they ought to be This is a cleare case that while there is shadowe signification of the thing there is not the thing it selfe If they were in dede what shoulde they nede to séeke so to appeare Marforius I haue heard in dode that outwardly they be one thing inwardly an other Pasquine Thou mayst be sure of y â— if thou beleue the Gospell whiche saythe That there shall come vvolues to deuour vs clad in shepe skinnes by cause they vvill not be knovven for righte well thou knowest y â— one shepe eateth not another Marforius Thou tellest me Pasquine greate matters and suche as I neuer heard before and yet haue I studied many yeares the Canon lawe and in the subtil pointes of Iohn Brokenshinne and yet did I neuer reade these thinges which haue in them somewhat more than euery man vnderstandes Tell me now how thou madest this comparison for I remembre I read in Plato that it is a goodlye way to finde out the truth to seperate the thinges that are like from those that are different And I thinke this same be it that our Logitians speake of that contraries being layd together are the better discerned Pasquine Thou sayest wel but to come to the poynte Take thou which thou wiltâ— among all the Saintes yea if thou wouldest take the Uirgin Marye who hath the chiefest place and then consider well after what sorte she was in tymes past while she liued and in what sorte she
the hearing of it Marforius That I can for I am redy to dye for very lust to heare it Pasquine Antichrist is so called by this effect bycause he is against Christ. But the name of this kingdome with the which as happy and fatherly he couereth the vnhappy name of Antichrist that he may the more safely deuour and slea Christes shepe this name I say is called the number of man by the Prophet in the newe Testament Marforius I vnderstand thée now lesse than I did before Pasquine â—ast thou not read in the Apocalips of the marke and of the name of the beast and of the number of man Marforius I haue some time heard men striue vpon that place and vpoÌ„ that whore clothed in Scarlet and droncke with the bloude of Sainctes whome they called the great whore and they sayd she had in hir hande a Cuppe of golde full of abhominations and hir filthy lustes and if I remember me well they called hir also Babilon the mother of the fornications of the earth But by cause I heard not the beginning of the disputation I could not vnderstand what that whore was Pasquin All this that thou hast sayd belongeth to Antichrist and to his kingdome which thinges thou shalt clearlie vnderstande by that time I shal haue declared vnto thée the name with the which that wicked person doth nothing else but sel him selfe to the worlde But hearken to this Marforius I am here al redy thereto Pasquine The letter of his name is P A the nuÌ„ber is P P A A. and the name is made by putting ech of those letters amids his two felowes For as Pythagoras Disciples say the number of man is double or two fould the which doth clearely appeare sith there are in the name contayned but two letters onely as thou haste séene in the number And albeit euery of those letters is twice formed they are not for all that any more than two figures of letters two sillables UnderstaÌ„dest thou it yet or no Marforius I vnderstande it very well for this name these letters come often in my way in the Canon lawe But beware Pasquine that thou seeke not to knowe to much thou shouldest doe better to beleue simply as I doe hauing bene so taught by a cunning Frier Pasquine What callest thou to beleue simply Marforius This not to labour to much in holy scripture and to leaue those thinges to the Diuines Pasquine That is to beleue ignorantly and not simply knowest thou not that place of the Gospell which sayth Search the Scriptures if thou beleue so Marforius thou deceiuest thy selfe fowlly for this is not simplicitie but rather a folishe and carelesse credulitie Marforius I will tell thée true I did beleue that simplicitie and ignorance were both one thing Pasquine Thou deceyuest thy selfe I say for there is a greater difference betwene them Simplieitie is not ignoraunce but a certaine clearenesse and singlenesse of minde whose contrary is doublenesse if thou know therfore what it is to be of a double minde thou shalt also vnderstande what it is to be of a single minde Marforius I knowe well what it is to be of a double minde for this often times happeneth vnto me but suche maner of simplicitie as thou speakest of I know not Pasquine I beleue iâ— well for you Canonistes can not be both subtile and simple together but would to God that your craftinesse might be turned into simplicitie for then should there not be among you so many disceytes wayes to entangle men in and suche deuises and delayes and there should be no maner disputing De Iure stricto largo but onely that which is iust and good shoulde raigne in you Marforius What is simplicitie then Pasquine Simplicitie is a vertue the which who so euer hath sheweth with the effectes what he is he is no hipocrite but in euery thing and in euery act is séene a great clearnesse and singlenesse and he is such that in him thou mayst trust any thing that thou hast for being sincere he doth sincerelie behaue him selfe Moreouer concerning the knowledge of thinges and their experience he wil haue a sincere and sure iudgement without any colour or disguising of Hipocrisie Marforius If the matter be so it must nedes be that the simple man be replenished not onely with great goodnesse but also with great learning iudgement together for these things are requisite to him that will diligently search and vnderstande the Scriptures Pasquine Thou sayest truth Marforius Then are there in these dayes many simple without simplicitie Pasquine It is true in these dayes and there is little godlinesse amongst Christen men they were in olde time simple those true Sainctes who * lacked not what to aunswere to the Iudges bycause they beleued simply and this beleuing simplye can not be without a very great stedfastnesse for this simplicitie hath alwayes wayes in company a certaine most firme constnancie of minde and about it a wall of brasse such as these be put on no visours nor strange garmentes but wil be knowen of euery man for y â— they be But this masking and disguising is neuer without some suspicien of deceite And what thinkest thou this saying meaneth be ye simple as Doues but that ye haue that singlenesse of mind that belongeth to a Christian and shewe the same in your couÌ„tenaunce in your maners in your apparell and in your workes as Doues doe the which faine not one thing and do an other as doe the Foxes but openlye shewe their naturall whitenesse and mildenesse in all their life Marforius Is there not then one Frier that is simple Pasquine As thou thinkest of theÌ„ they are al so but as I thinke there is not one so Marforius In very déede I did euer beleue till nowâ— that we must be simple that is to say ignorant doltish very Asses Pasquine Such opinion haue they had whome the shéepish foolishnesse of our time hath nouseled vp but I say to thée that the Christian should be very well learned wel exercised in his owne lawe for so shall he not be able to be moued by any maner argument being wel grounded vpon that sure stone whereas he that shall be ignorant shall be redy to fall into alherâ—sies and to al disceites for ignorance agreing with all thinges and lacking of iudgement at one instant taketh holde of truth of falshoode without making at any time any distinction at all And hereof are risen so may heresies and sectes among the christians For being ignorant they haue bene deceyued by crafty créepers most of all vnder the colour of Religion And therefore some folowing the rule of that man some of this man those other of an other man and not one there is that foloweth the rule of Christ the which
without superstitions and falshoods commaundeth vnto vs the loue of God and of our neighbour it is therefore no maruel that the Iewes and Turkes become not Christians seing the Christians deuided into so many sectes with the which also they dare take vpon them to call them selues spirituall being altogether carnall Paule in the first to the Corinthians cryeth out against these sects saying If any of you say I holde of Pâ—ule an other I holde of Appollo an other I holde of Cephas the fourth I holde of Christ are ye not carnal is Christ deuided Marforius I knowe these errours very wel I will that from henceforth thou be my Gratâ—an and my Panormitan but thou shouldest preach this about the streates Pasquine I woulde gladly do it but I feare the decrée of that flemish Pope Marforius Peraduenture thou meanest Adrian Thou canst not speake Dutch wel Pasquine Atrian thou must say for so a man may sée in his Epitaph Marforius Thou nedest not doubt any more of him for he is dead Pasquine So woulde God that this that now is and all that shall come after were with all their traine and trash that belong vnto them but yet for al this there want no priute watchers I haue heard say y â— Chietti hath spoken the Diuell and all againste me in that théeuishe consistorie Marforius And why Pasquine Bicause I tolde him his true proper natural name that is to say hâ—pocrite but let him doe and say what he will for I set not a turde by him sith I am made immortall and become a God aswell as he is bespâ—rited and become a Diuel Marforius But now returne a little and tell me the cause of thy going to heauen Pasquine It was this that I haue tolde thée for that I sawe these Saintes to be so farre different from that they were sometime I would nedes goe to heaueÌ„ purposely to sée whether they haue there aboue the selfe same nature For me thought it a thing vnlikelye that this Saint Mary here belowe that hath the painting on hir face that hath crownes full of Iewels on hir heade that hath Chaynes aboute hir necke that hath Ringes on her fingers that hath so costly and so many sortes of garmentes vpon hir like one of those yong Girles of olde time me thought it not I say that this was al one with that most humble mother of the Lorde and so much the more I confirmed my selfe in this opinion bicause I sawe this Lady to be most couetous moste desirous to heape vppe treasure and most nigardly in spending it and if she let any thing of hir owne goe out of hir handes shée delt it most wickedly so that I sayd often to my self if this be thâ— Lords mother why hath she not compassioÌ„ vpon her sonne whom she séeth euery day in y e church where she is goe aboute asking almes Marforius What sayest thou hath Christ nede then Pasquine Yea in the poore that represeÌ„t his person for he sayeth In as much as you haue done it to one of the least of these my brethren ye haue done it vnto me Yet notwithstanding if this hir some aske hir but one Dotkin she doth not giue it him but standeth vpon hir grauitie and looketh bigge without once chaunging hir countenance nor shewing any maner signe of coÌ„passion But when the holy Father goeth to Loretto when those most reuerend Cardinals when the spirituall fathers goe vnto hir she geueth to these generations all that she hath to spend vpon whores dogges horses and Ganimedes whiche I shoulde haue sayde first the which things I am right well assured were al farre wide without all comparisoÌ„ from that true most pure virgin the Lords mother y â— which aboue all other things hated this filthy kinde of men beside that I was right well assured y â— those that be the very saintes in dede being with God who is most riche haue no nede of our goodes nor of our offeringes nor that they be so gréedy of glory nor sake not for such goodly Churches nor so riche Aultars and other ornaments whiche are in daunger to be one day robbed by the Turkes sithens suche as be the greate men in the worlde take not the same them selues These thinges are rather for the satisâ—ying of vaine witlâ—sse men than of Saints who neuer called them selues Kings nor Quéenes of heauen but the seruantes and handemaydes of God and woulde haue their dwellinges treasures in heauen where there is no daunger of Turkes for they goe not vp thither whiche treasures are not golde and siluer but iustice peace and ioy in the holy ghost And perceyuing newe by all these wayes aforesayd that these be no Saintes and seing that the worlde would enforce me to beleue that they be Saintes and that it were deadly sinne to speake euill of them I determined to goe to heauen to cleare me of this double Marforius I maruell that none hath sought this before thée Pasquine All haue lefte of for a certaine foolish and light beliefe and bycause they had holy thinges in small estimation being content with a false and wicked Religion the which hytherto I know not by what meanes hath holden the worlde sore bewitched And if there were founde any one that had begon to discerne the truth by and by haue they had their eyes closed that they should sée no further nor wade déeper for knowledge therin Marforius Thou hast tolde me y â— cause of this thy voiage tell me now how thou wentest vp and by what way and then what thou sawest there aboue For there must nedes be thinges farre diuers from ours from al that we can imagine or thinkeof Pasquine I will tell thée the whole so that thou hearken wel vnto me Marforius I hearken to thée say on Pasquine Séeking the way to go to heauen I coulde not finde it albeit I had red many things of Protheus Icarus and Menippus who men say wente vp thither but they tell not by what way Wherevpon I determined to aske one of these Angelles of it whiche all day goe vp and downe and they tolde me that there was none other way but by death that way I liked not bicause life is deare to euery man but by chaunce I found an other way Marforius And what way was that Pasquine That being in a traunce all these things should by reuelation be shewed vnto me Marforius Who taughte thée that way some Negromancer Pasquine Holde thy peace for this practise was deuised by holy fathers haste not thou read in the liues of holy fathers that Hilarius the Abbot standing on his féete in his chamber founde him selfe to be before the iudgement seate of God and there aunswered Pro contra Marforius I neuer read it Pasquine Hast thou not also read that booke intituled Memorare nouissima
the spirite to aunswere to his questions and he asked him if he were in Paradise there was no aunswere made he asked if he were in hell and yet there was no aunswere he asked him if he came from Purgatory and then the spirite made a great rushing against the wal then did the coniurer aske whether he was such a one or such a one naming many and sundry persans that dyed long ago and yet was there no aunswere heard nor no maner of noyse but when he named that woman that was buried without pompe the spirite then made two great rushings against the wall Then did the coniurer aske whether she were condempned for this or that cause and in the ende it sayd bycause she was a Lutherane then was there heard thrée greate rushes against the wall The husbande being a wyfe and circumspect man marked euery thing and made as though he had much maruelled at the matter and desired those Wolues to supper the day following caused an hundreth Masses to be sayde and to light a whole worlde of Candels The Wolues howled they sent their Gods into Purgatory wet the graue with vnholy water and they perfumed it with Frankincense and when this was done caryed the Friers to dinner and in the meane season sent the officers to the place where the deceyt was done where they fouÌ„d certayne vaultes and there within thrée spirites hidden whom they toke caried away Marforius And how could they take the spirites that haue no bodies Pasquine These were of those spirites that haue bodyes of whom Saint Augustine speaketh of of which sorte are almost all those that dwell in Monasteries Marforius Were they spirites in dede Pasquine Thou art very grosse they were thrée Friers of those that they call Nouices that is to say such as knowe not yet verye well the sleightes and falshoodes of the Friers Marforius In dede the Monasteries are euen full of deceytes and the worlde is very blinde in that they espy them not In Turine also there happened of late the like matter Pasquine Well the officers hauing found the Bugs that made men afeard ledde them away like thrée little Diuels as they were into the place where the other great Diuels were at meate whom when Belsabub and his brethren sawe they knewe their knauery bewrayed and as men all dumbe they began to looke one vpon an other Marforius But were they not punished for their labour Pasquine Yes afterwarde with shame inough they were rewarded according to their demerits Marforius I maruell muche that the king hearing that these traytours did so shamefuly abuse the true Religion did not suffer that the Gospell might be fréelye preached Pasquine Thou must not maruell at this but thou must maruell rather when thou séest that any Prince doth any thing that is good they receyue with good will the true Christian Religion for eating fleshe on dayes forbidden and for the other commodities of the fleshe but they persecute imprison and slay other that in eating of flesh in other thinges folow the liberty of Christ and condemne the bondage of Antichrist They will fight against the Lambe but the Lambe shall ouercome and confounde them all Lo now are the Wolues all in maner come to confusion and shall or euer it be long be at an euil point except such as are on y e Lambes side none shal escape but this they beleue not but thou shalt sée it Marforius I beleue it certainly for me thinketh that hereof Saint Iohn speaketh in his Reuelation But to returne to Purgatory of the which I remaine not altogether satisfied tell me ought we not to hope the best Pasquine Thinkest thou that to hope the best is to beleue that one abideth for euer in Purgatory And wherfore hope they not rather y â— he is in heauen and so make an ende of all their Massing Marforius And what can this hoping hurte Pasquine It hurteth the pursses and goodes of the heires executors of men but if they haue so great a lust to say them to do good vnto the deade why doe they not satisfie their luste without any taking of money but yet for all this I will for my part beleue that he that dyeth in the fayth of Christ goeth straight to heauen and not into purgatory And this it is to hope the best What a crueltie is this of our shepeheards who haue so euil an hope of our saluation that they rather beleue we be stil in purgatory than in heauen Alas this is euen a token that they know before hand that the doctrine taught vs by them is not able to bring vs to heauen But if they fed their siely shepe with y â— holesome word of God saw them depart hence ful fed with faith in Christ what should they nede to giue so euil a iudgement of them and beate their braynes about so many sacrifices which bycause they neuer make an ende of shewe an euident token that they neuer haue sufficient And thus to procéede still without end is an argument to be holden for certayne that in Purgatory there is no redemption Marforius They haue for al that an end many tymes Pasquine Yea when paying of money hath an end Marforius So would I haue sayd vnto thée But sith thou art come to speak of Purgatorye I pray thée tell me whether thou hast séene it and howe thou camest out of it for as thou hast well sayde the deade come neuer backe hither to tell vs ought of it Pasquine I to tell the truth neuer dyed but was chaunged from fleshe into a stone so that the name of Pasquine is yet aliue howâ— wouldest thou therefore that I should haue séene Purgatory when I tell thée I was in heauen Excâ—pte thou meanest by Purgatory the bloude of Christ. Marforius This is a playne heresie Pasquine Euen so in dede say the Friers but certainelye it is an heresie to say or beleue otherwise Paule in his Epistle to the Hebâ—ues affirmeth that it is impossible that remission or purging of sinnes shoulde be done with out bloud In Purgatory there is no bloud but fire therfore is it not possible that in Purgatory should be any remission or purging of sinnes And that there is no bloude there thou mayst be assured thereof by this for they say that there are soules without bodyes and soules haue no bloud But this haue they taken out of Poets fables and haue fayned that there is a fire the more to feare the mindes of the poore simple people and chiefly such as be sicke of the Feuer who féeling the heate of the Feuer haue thought that that heate of Purgatory is ten tymes greater or else bycause those people that are towarde the North are very colde to the ende they should not so goe frosen to God it was méete that they should first be heate a little And therefore was Saint Patrikes Purgatory
deuised in Scotland And it is yet to be sene in certaine old paintings that the Angels plounge the soules into this fire as it were into a baine and theÌ„ forthwith hoyst them vp alofte and many are séene with their armes stretched out with their beardes with the haires of their heade safe and sounde and their whole body cleane whiche betokeneth that that fire doth not burne But this so terrible a fire that made the whole worlde for feare to quake while it was thus kindled by good chaunce is nows quenched Marforius Would God it were so But how knowest thou it Pasquine As I came from Geneua vpon the way I found an Inkeper that tolde it me Marforius What did he tell thée Pasquine Doest thou not remember that yere in which the Secretaries of the newes sayd that there woulde come so many raynes flouds of water Marforius I remember it well it was in the yeare of our Lord 1524. Pasquine Euen so it was doest thou remember what prayers were made to God that he woulde delyuer vs from so great distruction Marforius I remember it well Pasquine God then being moued with compassion coÌ„maunded Neptunus to cary those waters into some other place Neptune therefore sith he could not bestowe where he woulde so great store of waters which he had prepared for the drowning of the whole world let a great part therof soake through into Purgatory quenched the fire in such sort that sith that time hitherto it neuer gaue no great flame A great part therof remayned vtterly quenched Another part thereof eschewing the water as his contrary retyred first to Cicilia and after to Porzolo whereas after it had by little and little made his waye it burst forth with wonderful great hurt to the country and nowe is in the way to goe to Rome where first it began to burne Marforius Why then will so wicked a fire assayle so holy a City Pasquine He that with good reason returneth to his owne countrey it is not to be sayd that he doth assault it Marforius Wel tell me how did this straunge chaunce please the people of that heauen of which thou speakest Pasquine Thou couldest not beleue what griefe they féele thereby They do nowe nought else but stirre vp Vulcane to make such an other for they knowe that from his Shoppe in the hill Atna a certaine Abbot called Odilus brought the first fire to Rome to saint Gregory And if Vulcane make not such an other they doubte that so great rentes as they receyue by this forge wil all come to nought Marforius They haue good cause to doubt for if it be knowen abrode that this fire is put out what will he be that wil take from his owne children and heires to giue to these lazy lubbers whâ— will builde any Chappels who will builde any Monasteries who will any more fat these Hogges who wil haue any more estimatioÌ„ of them I for my part haue hytherto estéemed and reuerenced them for feare onelye of this fire For they made me beleue that it burneth euen the stones But bycause they sée that meÌ„ are not afeard of this their imagined fire of Purgatory they make them féele the fire of this worlde and all to maintaine their tirannicall kingdome Yet profite they little for all that for those men whom they so burne liue in the fire and of their ashes do increase and multiply infinite numbers But leaue we this for I am out of doubt thereof and let vs returne to the Quéere where the Friers be of whome thou spakest not long since Sawest thou any of those Scapuchines Pasquine Thou meanest those y â— haue alredy begon to nestle theÌ„ selues in al y â— townes of Italy with filthy garmentes â—roked conditions with their hoode drawen vp with a peake in the toppe after suche fashion as the Diuill is painted * tempting Christ in the desert Marforius Those I aske for Pasquine I sawe one or two but they wente all alone hated of al men and they mumbled to them selues I wote not what touching fréewil Marforius I beleue that for in this towne and in Padoa I haue heard them at the Shrouetide beat it into the heads of the Fackins But what was the cause they were so hated that garmeÌ„t of theirs shoulde giue them some credite at the least with these poore whoresons Pasquine They were hated bicause that with their filthinesse with their wéede they did so magnifie set forth Ipocrisie that they made some suspect that therby they would whollye withdrawe the people from the other Religions and allure theÌ„ to theirs Marforius Why then doth enuy raigne among them Pasquine Not enuy only but hatred also For they so deadly hate the inuentour of this order Barnardine Ochine that it can not be spoken séeing him now to be become a Rebell to this heauen and that he doth so valiantly assaulte it and layeth to the walles so ruinous a battery And beside that doest thou not remember that I tolde thée that it was the heauen of Popes fooles where those that are immortall are a great deale worse than those that be mortall But thou shalt vnderstande me better by that time thou haue hearde the whole of me point by pointe Marforius Followe on therefore I pray thée for I take great pleasure to heare thée discouer so great wickednesse and to shew the truth naked plaine Pasquine We left therefore the streate of the Friers whereas all these sectes disputed together of their dyuers customes Habits and Institutions that the Tower of Babilon was neuer fuller of confusion and came to the second streate Marforius Tary I pray thée doe they agrée so well together in this heauen Pasquine They do all agrée in séeking to preferre them selues before Christ in the rest they are as wyde as East and West Marforius I can not beleue that Pasquine Canst thou not beleue it O Marforius Marforius thou takest little héede to thinges I knowe wel that thou findest not this in the Comentaries of Gratian nor Accursius but wherefore serue so many Churches so manye sacrifices so manye Frieries so many Monasteries made in the honour of this Saint and of that but to banishe by little and little the memory of Christ out of the world The increasing of these Frieries hath bene the diminishing of the Christian fayth Marforius That is like inough to be true out of doubt But procéede on a little and tell me what followeth Pasquine Then commeth the order where the Urrgines be where are to be séene many thousandes of foolishe women Marforius Why and are the women there aboue men and in a more worthy place Pasquine It was requisite that they shoulde be put in betwene the Monkes and the Confessours for the Monkes teach them how to put the diuel into Hel how he must be fought with and
the maner how to fall into a traunce And on the other side the confessours vnderstand all that they doe in sight thought worde and dede and then laying their handes on their heade and the displing rodde as the penitentiaries here do they assoyle them Marforius I vnderstande thée well They are put in the mids bycause they shall not runne away but this séemeth to me very straunge that in the Letany they are last and here they are aboue the Monkes vnder whom me thinketh they would do much better Pasquine The fault is in the bookes and not in the matter and he that made the Letany knew not al for then woulde he not haue set the women in the rerewarde for they ought to be kept and not to kepe other nor let it not séeme straunge to thée that they be aboue the Monkes for the Monkes can bring them vnder them when they list Marforius Are they all after one fashion haue they al one kinde of garment Pasquine So full of diuersitie is this diuision or Quéere as the rest are for asmuche as some are called Celestines some Clarines some Vastalines some Martirines some Brigidines Other are called Barbarines other Lucianes other Marianes other Marthanes other Benedictanes other Franciscanes other Dominicanes other Aâ—gustinianes other Carmilitanes and some Putanies also Marforius What did they Pasquine First of all they gloryed in their goodly title and next they reioyced that they had drawen into that opinion the chiefest part of ChristeÌ„dom And of this most especially they boasted that the opinion of Uirginitye or to say better the hatered of Matrimony had builded from the foundations vpwarde a great parte of that heauen Marforius They diseeyued them selues neuer a deale for if the Prelates and Priestes had not forborne wyues the Popishe Religion shoulde long sithens haue bene broughte to nothing for the multiplying of their children woulde haue deuided their reuenewes into many portions If thou wilt sée how much mariages are hurtfull to this Church take example of that which this other yeare Pope Paule did when he maried his sonnes sonne to the Emperours bastard daughter which he solde to the Pope If all Popes were of that minde and then begat children apase it woulde sone come to passe with them as it did with the Marquises of Lunigiana who in the end had neyther Marchandize money nor lande lefte them and therefore they passe not for any other thing than the commodities of the fleshe and hate Matrimony as a verye plague Pasquine Thou vnderstandest it Marforius and so doe I. Marforius But I maruell much how there can be so many Uirgines this being so rare a gift and most of all sith it is lost by the desire only For vvho soeuer loketh on a womaÌ„ to lust after hir hath commtited adultrye vvith hir already in his heart Pasquine The matter is that they take not virginity after this sorte but for a virgin they meane hir that is without a husband or him that is without a wife Marforius By this meaning Fornicatours and single women also may be Uirgines ah Pasquine Yea out of doubt so that they sweare neuer to mary remember that if they lyue not chaste they may take a whore secretly Marforius I doubt least by this opinioÌ„ many are become dishonest virgines But sawest thou there Saint Katherine Saint Barbara Saint Iulian. Pasquine I saw them and they were very full of cursed ambition Marforius What is that I heare thée say are those virgines ambitious that dispysed all thinges of the worlde Pasquine A man may reade in some storyes that they dispysed all thinges and I thinke it well done to beleue godly and learned hystories whereas a man may not sée any thing that is superstitious or wicked but there well I wote they haue chaunged both countenance and conditions Saint Katherine promised to him that hath in remembraunce hir passion to deliuer him from lightnings and tempestes And Saint Barbara to make him in the Warres kill his enimyes Marforius Diddest thou neuer heare that fine toy of this Saint Barbara how she gaue a gifte to certaine souldiers that had fasted on Saturday in the honour of hir that they might with most stout courage fall vnto the spoyle There are also many deuout souldiers that beare hir painted on their Harquebushes and vpon their Morions or vpon their Curasses that she may defende them from Gunshot Pasquine O Marforius howe many tymes haue I maruelled and yet could I neuer beleue it that the good Saints had any desire to do hurt to men and that they had this ambition to desire to get credite in the worlde and to do it by these meanes For I knewe it was the foolishest thing in the worlde to beleue that that which they eschewed while they were subiecte to the affections of the fleshe they seke so nowe that they are out of bondage of those affections If we will please Saintes that are the true Saintes in dede let vs do that which they while they liued commaunded vs that is to say let vs loue God and let vs vse charitye to our neighbour for doing otherwise we do highly offend them that is to say we make them ambitious desirous of reuenge cruell and proude the which thinges in their life time they so muche abhorred and hated As might right well be séene in their storyes if the Friers by their presumption and for that cursed rage of gaine had not corrupted and peruerted the same And therefore let vs séeke to Christ onelye for he onelye is the vvay he onely is the truth he onely is the life he only is the light he onely is the Master he onelye is the shepherde he onely is the hye Priest he onely is the Aduocate he onely is our full redemption and saluation Let vs therefore sollowe Christ onely forsaking those things that are the causes of so many inconueniences For we sée right well that bycause we follow not Christ only there are sprong vp so many sundry sectes so great diuersities of rites customes so many superstitions which haue led away the Christians so far from Christ y â— of his they haue now no more but onelye the bare name and this is the fruite that is gotten by deuotion to Saintes Marforius To returne therefore to the purpose this virginitye is it not so holy a thing as the worlde taketh it to be Pasquine Thou hast heard that it hath bene the foundation of a great part of this heauen Marforius I haue heard so and for ought that I haue heard I sée also that vices are clad with the clothes of those vertues that are their contraryes for I sée that fornication is called virginity But much I maruell that Saint Ierome did so much extoll this virginitye that he durst make this conclusion It is good for a man to be
without a wyfe therefore is it euill for a man to haue a wife And in an other place he sayth that God hath promised heauen to virginitye and the earth to them that be maried Pasquine This is euen the ful and flat heresie of Montanus The which Ierome foloweth also in condempning altogether the seconde mariage as is to be séene in that he wryteth to Iouinian where he affirmeth that the seconde and thirde mariage is naught and where he taketh holde for the confirmatioÌ„ of his opinion he wresteth the scriptures to his meaning without purpose as a man may sée in the Epistle that he wryteth to that gentlewoman of Rome who bycause she was a wyddow and but a yong woman to obey Saint Paules councel was maryed agayne the beginning of his Epistle is this Thou art become shamelesse and hast put on the face of a Harlot Marforius Me thinketh therefore that his workes shoulde haue shewed with great aduisement what is the cause that being a man of so great learning he taketh things so cleane contrary that he is so stubburne in his opinions Pasquine What bycause he was a man and a Dalmatian Marforius Thou meanest somewhat in that thou callest him a Dalmatian Pasquine I meane then that Nation is most obstinat in that which once entreth into their braynes and setteth nought by the opinion of al other Nations Knowest thou not that olde frende of Cardinal Chietti that commeth oft times to sée him Marforius Ha yes yes I know him he speaketh Gréeke very oft bycause he would séeme to vnderstand much of it Pasquine That is he When this man talketh of any thing of his owne thou neuer heardest a prouder man nor a greater boaster speake nor that more disprayseth all thinges that come not from him selfe or from his countrymen nor a more stubburne in his opinions and therefore maruel not at Saint Ierome for they are all suche kinde of men Marforius This also maketh me much more to maruel that these men haue so much extolled this virginity sith there is not in all the holy scripture any one precept that forbiddeth to any kinde of men mariage and where there are so many places that comaunde and commende it For by this meane God would that the world should be maintayned And this was defended by the good Byshop Paphnutus in the councell of Neece against thrée hundreth Byshops Pasquine I beleue that it is for the Uirgin Maries sake that these men woulde haue so many Virgins Marforius Yet can they not for all that bring to passe that there should be many Maries the which was verely a Phoenix Pasquine I like it well that thou beginnest to vnderstande the matter Marforius Sée Pasquine I haue done as Thelemachus did in Homer who sayde that by other mennes wyse communications he had learned much Pasquine I muche reioyce that this my talke hath brought forth so good fruit in thée Marforius And I reioyce much more thereat But to returne to the purpose of this virginitie I say that the Uirgine Mary neuer made accoumpt that hir Uirginity should be of any merite towards God for she had determined to haue a husband would before haue had him but that the Aungell of the Lorde declared to hir that high and heauenly determination that God had made concerning hir And God had regarde not to hir virginity but to hir humility as may be séene in hir owne song where she sayde He hath regarded the lovvlinesâ—e of his handemayde and sayde not to the virginity of his handemayd for lowlinesse is it that pleaseth the Lord and that is by him commaunded vnto vs whyles he sayeth Learne of me for I am meeke and lovvlye of heart and sayde not learne of me for I am a Uirgin And if thou wilt sée this more clerelye loke that place of the Gospell where the Disciples sought to knowe who shoulde be greatest in the kingdome of heauen Christ set there in the middest among them a childe saying That they must humble them selues and become as that childe if they vvould enter into the kingdome of heauen And if he had made so great an accoumpt of Uirginity or had knowen it to be so necessary he might haue sayd that they must be virgins as that childe was if they would enter into the kingdome of heauen And see moreouer the greatest prayse that is giuen to Christ is for that as the Scripture sayth He made him selfe of no reputation taking vppon him the shape of a seruaunt and not bycause he was a Uirgin But herevpon the Lordes saying putteth me in some little doubt which sayth That some do make them selues chast for the kingdome of God Pasquine Let not this trouble thee for this worde to make chaste in that place meaneth nothing else but to take away euery euill affection not onely of fleshly luste but also of all maner euill desire therto As also where he sayeth That thou shouldest pull out thine eye aâ—d cut of thine hande he meaneth nothing else but that thou shouldest take from thée that vice which ouercommeth thée by meanes of that member of thine And the gift of chastity is not giuen to euery one that vvoulde haue it but to vvhome God vvill This therfore ought not to be giuen as a commauÌ„dement but they that are called thervnto by god ought to vse this as a councell Marforius Why then Origen much mistooke this matter in cutting away his instrumeÌ„t of generation Pasquine Without doubt he should better and more holily haue made him selfe chast if he had asswaged his hote desire with an honest wife of his owne For this thing God commaundeth vs and not the other Marforius But he should not haue bene chaste after that sorte Pasquine Nay rather he could not be chaste after the other sorte as Logitians define who cal not the Eunuches chast bicause they can do nothing But that he hauing a wife might also be chaste the booke of wisedome doth playnely dedeclare where he sayth O hovv faire is a chaste generation vvith vertue Lo he calleth chaste the generation of children And to y e Hebrues thus it is written Mariage is honourable among all men and the bed vndefiled but Fornicators adulterers God vvil iudge Marforius I woulde it were Gods will that thou mightest be a Preacher to the worlde but euen a fewe yeares then shoulde it not be halfe so blinde as it is Pasquine Such was Gods pleasure that those that haue bene delited with lyes and foolishe toyes should in lyes and foolishe toyes be drowned buried Marforius Sithe we are entered into this talke I woulde haue thée tell me what it is that hath deceyued so many great learned meÌ„ to set forth so carefully this virgintiy Pasquine A French Byshop full of great learning of great iudgement and of muche godlynesse opened myne eyes
in this poynt that thou nowe demaundest saying that very many errours are sprong vp by the deceytfulnesse of such as to curiouslye sifte the scriptures who finding in the same some one thing in especiall or that particulerly hath bene commaunded to one man haue gone aboute to make it generall as this If thou vvilt be perfect goe and sell all that thou hast and giue it to the poore Here Christ speaketh to that yong man that boasted that he had alwayes kept the commaundements and gyueth this lesson particulerly to him to beate downe â—lat his presumption in that he sayde he had alwayes kept the commaundements of God And it is no generall precept for Christ denyeth not but that a man may serue God hauing ryches for a man may sée in the olde Testament that infinite Patriarkes and Kinges and other seruaunts of God were excéeding ryche Likewise where Saint Paule sayth to the Corinthians not commaunding but saying his aduise and speaking condicionally That it is good for a maÌ„ for the present necessity to be vvithout a vvife These men haue made this place generall and yet Saint Paule sayth for the present necessity bycause that theÌ„ the Christians were dryuen to and fro and if they had wyues and children they had more greater charge to cary aboute after them than if they were vnmaryed And thus sayth he bycause of y â— afflictions of the flâ—sh and the persecutions of those tymes and not for any other cause And therefore sayde he afterward that he spake for their profite not to tangle theÌ„ in a snare Many other places there are in the Scripture which albeit they be most speciall these fellowes haue gone about to make most generall And euen so is it of virginitie the which being a gifte graunted to very fâ—we by especiall priuiledge from â—od they notwithstanding haue sought to haue it of euery man as a thing generall bycause they are not of capacitie to vnderstande that saying as Christ spake it â—ut these precepts are particuler as that was of Abraham to kyll his sonne And as it shouâ—e be a great absurditie to go about to make that precept generall euen so is it no lesse absurditie to commaund and commende this other also Marforius This discourse of thy â—yshop pleaseth me very well he is â—arre differâ—nt from the Duncysh Sorbones of Paris who say if they had saint Paule in their handes they would burne him I perceyue that the light of Gods truth burneth in y â— heart of this Bishop But sawest thou there neuer a widow was there not Iudith of Sarepta * Anne the Prophetesse that so openly confessed Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell nor that other that †offered the two Mytes and was therfore so much coÌ„mended of Christ Pasquine There was none of all these there for they as it was tolde me were in the other heauen But in this heauen were some that none durst be so bolde to name them and they were of those that saint Paule calleth idle euer babling busy bodyes and speaking things which are not comely Marforius And why are they in this heauen Pasquine The Aungell tolde me bycause some of them had founded Monasteries and erected sundry sectes and enryched the places and became Nonnes and especiallye Englishe women Hungarians Dutch women and Frenche women Of Italians and Spanyardes there were very fewe Albeit there be in our dayes of countrey women of Italy that for superstition séeke to passe those of olde tyme. Marforius Who be these Pasquine Thou must nedes haue hearde speaking of them for that they séeke to be knowen for Saintes méete in very dede for this heaueÌ„ hast thou neuer heard speak of the Countesse of Vastalla and of hir that causeth hir selfe to be called the holye Ladye Saint Camill Marforius Yes but I neuer tooke héede therevnto what be they Pasquine I can not tell what they be For they do that which Paule doth disalowe being idle gadding from Citie to Citie and from house to house But yet hath Vastalla founded hir sect in Millaine Camilla was of late in Pauia and nowe is in Venice for into the déepe waters the great fishe alwayes goeth Marforius Tell me somewhat of the same Vastalla whether she bring forth any monsters Pasquine Thou sayest very well for who soeuer forsaketh God nature can doe nothing but bring forth monsters This Vastalla being a wydowe rich wealthy and of great byrth and therefore called a Countesse hath ordayned a secte of women and men who must séeke to attaâ—e to that puritie â—nocencie that was in Adam and Eue before they offended and to be such as can sinne no more and to be without all féeling of affectioÌ„ or passion and the mean to come herevnto is long prayers muche silence continuall fastings and to be shriuen euery day shewing and opening what soeuer it be eyther good or euill that they haue done sayd or thought without leauing behinde any iote or tittle of any thing Moreouer they muste receyue their maker euery eight dayes and they call their maker that rounde Cake in the which they saye is the body of Christ which is in heauen Marforius Alas what sayest thou Pasquine beleuest thou not that the consecrate breade is the body of Christ Pasquine And doest not thou beleue that Christ is very man Marforius Yes I doe beleue it and that he was borne of the Uirgin Mary and that he suffered dyed and was buried Pasquine Beleuest thou not that he afterwarde rose againe very man and that he ascended into heauen bearing with him his body full and whole and that he shall come thence in the same fashion that he was sene go hence to iudge the quicke and the deade Marforius Yea I doe beleue it and do looke for it Pasquine If thou beleue this wherefore wilte thou beleue that that breade is the â—ody of what gladnesse hast thou brought me vnto I do right well beleue that thou haste bene in heauen and haste brought from thence these so high mysteries For this knowledge is not of men but heauenly Now haue I let go the Woulfe and by thy labour and dilâ—gence aâ— come out of great daunger wherfore I giue â—od thankes without ende Pasquine Al that which this secte of the Countesse of Vastalla and all the Popishe route else do goe about concerning this Sacrament bycause they are so farre wyde froÌ„ the institution of Christ from the truth al that I say is nothing else but that which the scripture calleth the cursed Idol abhomination Marforius And I was euen nowe thinking therevpon and muche I maruelled howe it shoulde come to passe that some whiche vnderstande these thinges shoulde remayne still blinded in the errour of these so wicked Sacrifices and be partakers of them the which surely can not be without moste haynous offence against god Pasquine What man some doth
it for feare some for vaineglory and other some for couetousnesse and deceytes of the diuel But yet can the Lord kepe safe those that he his Marforius I perceyue that thou sayest truth and I see that this secte of Vastalla and suche like become so muche the worse as that they doe the oftner vse that Sacrameat and other wicked Sacryfices But is there any thing else to be sayde of hir Pasquine The best is yet behinde Marforius What is that Pasquine When she will knowe whether any be come to the purposed pointe of this puritie this way she tryeth it she causeth him to weare aboutâ— his nocke or vpon his heade or in some other notable place of his body some thing of much shame as a Frying panne or a Kettle or else the hornes of an Oâ—e or of a Ram or else his garments with the wrong side outwarde or otherwise euill fauouredly put on sometyme wrapped in a Nette or halfe naked and somewhile altogether naked be it maÌ„ or woman And so doth she make them go through the City for sayth she our firste fathers were in the beginning naked and afterwarde did couer their dishonest partes with leaues and then went halfe clothed and last of al as euill did encrease together with their shame they did wholly couer theÌ„ selues with beastes skinnes Who so euer doth therefore desire to returne to that former sincerity muste come backewarde by the selfe same degrées and from clothing him selfe must returne to nakednesse and if of these things they be not ashamed then is it a manifest token â–ª that they be already in Paradice Marforius Oh what a shamefull thing is this Pasquine Hearke there is worse yet Then putte they Adam and Eâ—e in the night season alone in a bedde who if they eate not of the Fruites if they speake not together thereof nor haue thereof no maner of thinking for as muche as of euerye thing they are afterwarde strayghtly examined and muste of force confesse it then are they alredy become Aungels made Gods But if they eate of the fruites for that for the moste part she that went to bed a â—irgin arose from thence spedde with hir errande then are they driuen out of Paradice and condempned to perpâ—tuall torments Marforius I knowe not who deserueth herein moste blame whether they that doe this or the Princes or Magistrates that winke at it Pasquine The Magistrates of Christendom in these dayes neyther condempne nor persecute any but such as séeke the hâ—nour of Christ that giue all prayse to Christ that maintaine the Gospell of Christ. Marforius Alas alas thou sayest euen the truth oh how great accompt shall they make to Christ God lighten them if it be his pleasure But tel me somewhat of that Lady saint Camilla Wherefore is she called both a Lady and a Saint Pasquine Lady for hir pride and Saint for hir Ipocrisie for she was not contented to be of the house of the Pallauicini the which thou knowest is famous noble in Italy but would by hir cursed pryde make hir self a moÌ„grel of the bloud Royal of Fraunce and sayth that she is the daughter of king Levves the thirde Marforius And how Pasquine She said that the King making warre in Italy had then to doe with hir mother and so was she begotten Marforius That was a terrible warre in dede but yet was there no bloude shedde And doth she then reioyce in this goodly tytle to be a bastarde the daughter of a whore both borne and begotten in adultery Pasquine Yea out of doubt but not without cause for thou mayst sée that that good fellowe of Millaine in his Paradoxes sheweth that it is better to be a bastarde than lawfully begotten Marforius Oh howe muche it displeaseth me to sée how goodly wittes are occupyed about vaine vnprofitable vile and shameful exercises which else might better be imployed in better studyes But this Camilla was a bastarde before that the Authour of those Paradoxes was borne But what lyfe leadeth shée Pasquine Mary shée gaddeth now here nowe there vnder colour of Religion Marforius Of what Religion Pasquine Of a Religion of none other bodyes making but of hir owne She hath with hir thrée women of the selfe same Ipocrisie and superstition Shée abideth not in any Monasterye as Nonnes doe but dwelleth in a priuate house and chaungeth it often such is hir womanishe ficklenesse shée haunteth places pleasant and solitary albeit she haue no greater pleasure in any one thing than in the coÌ„uersation of men as may well be seene for his house is continually haunted with women and gentlemen and Lordes as if it were the house of a conning Doctor or rather of the Oracle of the City And the world is such as more easely doth suffer it self to be drawen away with the gay glistering of superstitioÌ„ and fayned holinesse than with the true and humble religion Sometyme shée shutteth vp hir selfe in a Chamber so straight and so darke which shée often vsed at Pauia that it rather séemeth a graue than a Chamber and this she sayth she is the more familiarly to enioy the coÌ„pany of Angels On the Fryday she wil not speake to any man nor let hir selfe be séene for she sayth that on that day she remayneth altogether occupied in the contemplation of the Crosse of Christ and of his nayles through the meditation whereof shée sayth shée hath receyued the markes of the fiue wouÌ„ds of Christ. Marforius Why then she doth counterfaite Saint Katherine of Siena and Saint Fraunces Pasquine Nay rather is shée Saint Fraunces wife for shée loueth his Friers as hir owne children and preferreth his secte before all other and goeth also cladde in his wéede And moreouer she hath hir hands and hir féete wrapped in cloutes that the eyes of sinners shoulde not sée those holy woundes which are onely méete to be seéne of Aungels Marforius Are they woundes in good sadnesse Pasquine I can not tell but I wil shewe thée what merily and paraduenture truly an Ambassadour of the French Kings sayde talking one day of this woman and of hir woundes There was one that sayde he maruelled that shee kept them couered Maruell not at all quoth he for things that are filthy ought to be kept conered paraduenture they are the plaine markes of the French Pockes whiche disease is wonte to breake out in these places albeit sometime in the foreheade but not altogether nor after one sorte to all men Marforius What aunswered that other good fellow Pasquine He was blank he knew not what to say Marforius No more could I tell what to say if I sayde not that those woundes are made by arte of man or the crafte of the Diuel as happened in Berna a towne of the Svvychers where certaine Dominicane Friers did y e like to a poore simple soule Pasquine Thou sayest truth for I hearde speak of
Epitaph saying Here lyeth Ecchius buried full lowe That loued well wyne and belly chere Where his soule is seeke not to knowe For those were his Gods while he was here Marforius A pleasant Epitaphe and méete for such a paunche This that thou sayest maketh mée the better to beleue it bycause I haue séene Pope Lion the tenth for his great fatnesse had much a doe to goe vp three steppes in Saint Peters Palace whereby I conclude that muche lesse therefore shall be able to flye to heauen and especially when he hath no wings But what canst y â— tell me of Albert Byshop of Chioggia Pasquine I saw him in the middest among Pelagius Arrius Manichaeus and many other he was altogether ful of hepinesse Marforius Knowest thou the cause why Pasquine I would nedes vnderstand the matter And it was tolde me for there was come thyther a Fryer of Saint Fraunces of the Uine who had tolde him that he had séene in Venice a Shoppe where they sell Pilcherdes full of his workes which were solde by waighte to them that kepte Shoppes Marforins I think that y â— like wil hap one day to al the writings of the founders of this heauen But tel me was there none other loked for there Pasquine Many were looked for but most chiefly was one Iohn Cocles looked for bycause he was already canonized a Sainte by the Pope and appointed to this heauen There was looked for also one Costazarus and one Cornelius who with his Phariseicall and frierish opinions stoutly fighting against Christ had gotten the Bishoprike of Bertinoro or to saye more truely of Bruteonor Marforius What was spoken of them Pasquine Of Costazarus I hearde that these Gods were all wonderously offeÌ„ded with him for he had deceyued his God the Pope Marforius And how Pasquine I will tell thée Preaching in a Lent season in Spoleti he made a bargain with the Serattanes who are all coÌ„mon pickepurses to part the gaine betwene them and so published certain false bulles of the pardones of Clement the .vij. the which pardoned al maner of sinne and mischiefe to him that woulde paye a piece of mony therefore But first he let passe halfe the lent before he published his Bulles that the length of the tyme shoulde not discouer his knauerie therefore when he sawe it was time he cast forth his nettes and drewe a great quantitie of golden fyshes The CitizeÌ„s of Spoleti who are as craftie as the Deuill smelled oute the deceit and he no lesse craftie than they was ware that they perceyued it and so withoute bidding his hoste farewell departed and lefte the nettes but the fishe he caried away with him Marforius There was a conning Fisher but what was concluded by these Gods concerning him Pasquine To forgyue him so that he follow his old wickednesse and aboue all things to beware that he deceiue y â— Pope no more nor speake ought against him Marforius And of Cornelius what was said Pasquine They commended him much seing him so valiauntly in the Councell defende the Popes cause against Christ. And they were led away to the great glory and renowme of this heauen And euen very then was come a letter of his in the which he shewed his diligence and made those reuerend fathers vnderstand how Venice and all Italy was ful of Lutherans y â— they did coÌ„tinually increase Marforius These newes must nedes much displease those that were aboue Pasquine Thou mayst be sure of that And they were also vengeance angry against the Pope Marforius Alas man against the Pope and why Pasquine For they looked for an other to come to this heauen that had built so many Churches of stone so many Chappels so many Aultars so many furnitures for them and so many other things for the conseruation prayse and glory of this heauen that fewe were like vnto him And the Pope bycause he gaue him not the Byshopricke of Verona hath nowe lost him altogether and as the letters of the little Gréeke sayde this gentleman is now aboute to forsake them and to ioyne him selfe to Iesus Christ their mortall enimye Marforius If these newes displeased them it doth the more please me for to tell the truth they are growen into suche a deadly hatred with me bycause they are so bitter enimies to my Lorde God that I feare I shall not liue to sée them all destroyed But followe on the rest Pasquine We came to the fourth streate where the Martirs are Marforius What doe they there Pasquine All of them muche disdayning their deathes sought by all meanes to giue to men the punishement which they them selues suffred O I will tel thée a mery pastime that happened while I was there I hearde a great noyse I saw euery man run I runne for company and I saw Saint Rocke and Saint Bastian that were together by the eares Saint Rocke had his lefte hand vpon the nose and all ouer Saint Bastians face and with his right hande bobbed him about the head with his Palmers staffe Saint Bastian on the other side he had with one hande caught holde of Saint Rockes bearde and with the other hauing drawen oute of his thighe one of his Arrowes was about to haue thruste it through Saint Rockes sides and if the other blessed Saintes had not come betwene them there must nedes haue bene the Diuell and all to doe Marforius Wherefore fought they Pasquine Bycause eche of them pretended to be Master ouer the plague Marforius Howe agréed they Pasquine It was concluded that one of them shoulde haue the Plague and the other the Pestilence As I tolde thée therfore a little before all these Martyrs thinking scorne of their deathes sought to giue to men that punishment that they them selues â—ad suffered And therefore Saint Anthony thought to fasten his fire vpon some one Saint Rocke his plague Saint Bastian his PestileÌ„ce Saint Apolonia the Toothaches Saint Blase the disease of the throte Marforius What straunge things be these I haue heard that they haue helped suche as had these diseases but what profite get thei by this cruelty of theirs Pasquine What thing is it that maketh thee so muche to estéeme the Pope Marforius Feare for with sworde fire and water he punisheth who so euer abateth one â—ote of his power and kingdome Pasquine Thou sayest true these be the arguments with the which he disputeth against the Gospell But if he had no power to do this to thee howe muche then wouldest thou esteeme him Marforius But little Pasquine May feare therefore of other mens power doe so muche among men as to make one of a man a God Marforius Yea out of doubt for feare made the first Gods in the worlde Pasquine Much more therefore oughtest thou to thinke that this commeth to passe concerning Saintes who are other maner of fellowes than the Pope Marforius
a payre of Beads the which Saint Dominicks Friers haue put rounde about it so y â— it can not spread forth his light for this cause the place remaineth darâ—e and néedeth candels and lampes Marforius What payre of Beades is that Pasquine It is that which they call our Lady Psalter that which the hoggish herde of Friers do also cal the Bosarie that with the which the Paternosters or rather the Anemaries are giuen by tale to God nay rather to the Deuill that which euery foolishe woman caryeth in her hande when she goeth out of her dores in the morning that which is sayde more with the hands then with the heart that which is paynted alwayes in the hande of Ipocrisie that which souldiers make more conscience to leaue of than they do to kill a man that is it Marforius I vnderstand thée well I haue béene also of this opinion hitherto my selfe that he coulde not be saued which had not mumbled ouer his Beades at the least once euery daye But I maruell yet of an other thing howe is it possible that the sonne which is so great as they y â— write of the Mathematicall sciences affirme can be comprehended in so little a space and about a Quéene it muste néedes be that that Pallace shoulde be an other worlde and that that Quéene should be moÌ„strously great without measure if this could be Pasquine Thou must vnderstande that there is a great difference betwéene that Sonne and the Moone which we sée in this world and them that clothe this Quéene Marforius If there be that difference which is betwéene a thing that is true and a thing that is fayned it is very great Pasquine Thou hast hit the truth Marforius Followe on the rest sith I vnderstand this so wel In this great Hall al full of benches as that is of the great counsel at Venice was assembled a counsell of all sortes of Saintes a number infinite Marforius Came they therefore in this heauen callâ— Counsell without anye businesse and in earth neither by somoning nor no other way can it assemble Pasquine Yea but the cause is that these Saintes doubt lest if there shoulde be a counsell called in earth there shoulde somewhat be done in it that might not wel please them but in their counsell there is no daunger at all for them for all with one will and careful studie séeke to maintaine and increase their Kingdome and if it were possible to ouerthrowe the Kingdome of Christ. It is true in déede that in the olde tyme counselles were easely called togither in earth and for this cause for that there was not one that tooke Christes part or if he toke his part durst discouer himself for then would they haue burned him quicke as they did Iohn Husse and Ierome of Prage and manye other bicause they defended the truth of the Gospell against the falsehode of Poperie But now that they sée a good parte of the people of Christendome and of other nations haue a good opinion of Christ and an euill of the Pope and his followers they are so Slowe to the counsell that thoughe the Emperour desire it and all the worlde looke for it yet can it not be had in so great hatred haue they y â— truth for feare that it be not knowen abroade I speake not this as if the good and Godlye men had néede of counsels nor of the helpe of men but bicause their doctrine should be knowne for true holye and godly as it is and bicause it shoulde not seeme that they fly or auoyde the remedies of strife and contention vsed by those of old tyme and bicause the consciences of the weake shoulde be satisfied and last of all that hauing Campofranco That is to saye frée ground they may enter into the listes to combate with their aduersaries armed not with yron nor stéele but with the sacred Scriptures and the holye ghost â–ª and there staying al deceyte and falsehoode make the truth open and manifest But as for the godly they haue had the counsell of Iesus Christ with the ioynt assent of all the holy Apostles inspired by the holy Ghost the which counsell shall endure for euer But in this Popishe counsell are gathered together the Kings of the earth the chiefe Priestes and al sorts of these Saintes against the Lorde and Christ his Sonne Marforius A man may sée in effect that the Pope will néedes haue the counsell kept at Trent to the which for all that the Dutchmen neuer resorted Pasquine Howe can it be Marforius that y â— shouldest not vnderstand the subtiltie and falshood of the Pope knowest thou not that when two will fight the combatte togither it is first requisite that they haue frée grounde and that then they be in Armour Horsses and in euerye other things equall that the one haue not one iote of aduauntage of the other Tell me wouldest thou goe to fight with thine enimy at home in his owne house with disaduauntage nay rather when thou couldest not occupie thine owne weapons nay with one who beside that he is thy mortall enimie were both the one party that shoulde fight and also Lorde of the soyle wherein the listes are The Pope kepeth his counsell at Trent and to whome belongeth Trent to a member of the Popes and beside that it is subiect to Ferdinando a most bitter persecutour of the Gospell Beholde for the first parte there is no frée grounde then afterwarde that this counsell is kept where the Pope beareth so great a swaye and maintayneth his tirannicall authoritie the which while it endureth there is no speaking against him and he that speaketh against him is but a deade man And thoughe they graunted saufeconductes they breake them as faithlesse people couering themselues with their curssed lawes which saye that promise must not be kept with Heretiques and they call Heretiques not such as speake against the Gospel as they doe but such as speake against their curssed constitutions And I wil tel thée further that the Dutchmen haue discouered all this geare and if they had gone to the councell they had bene dispatched out of the waye thou wouldest néedes haue them go home to there Enemies which is Lorde of the listes but to hold a councel in a frée place and with equall match they will not heare of Marforius In déede thou sayest the truth But in this councell of Saints that thou speakest of didst thou come in Pasquin I came in I sawe and heard all the whole Marforius But how did they suffer thée so to doe Pasquine They coulde not sée me for my good Angel as long as pleased him had made me inuisible Marforius What heardest thou in the beginning Pasquine All cryed with one voyce Let vs breake their bondes and cast awaye their yoke from vs. Marforius What bonds what yoke ment they Pasquin The bonds of
vnderstande are infinite albeit for his notorious worthynesse he shall be called Antechrist that shall be worsse than al the rest and al the Popes state put them all together yet will he say that Antechrist must come as Gregorie sayde It is true that there haue bene dyuers Gregories and it may be that some one of them hath bene good and honest but all such as haue bene Popes are in the lake that burneth with fyre and brimstone in the bottomelesse pit They that were the first were lesse wicked but sithens haue they growen worsse and worsse and the last shal be y â— worst of all and I thinke that shall be the Cardinall Chietti except the dutch Launceknights come into Italic before and so make Pope Paule the thirde to be the last Marforius And yet perhappes they wyll not be taken for the verye maisters or heads for they call themselues Serui seruorum Dei and Prouidentia diuina Papa P. tertius and a number of such gaye glistering titles they outwardly shewe Pasquine This was the cause wherefore Christ sayde that outwardely they should be like shéepe but inwardly they shoulde be Wolues and Saint Paule sayeth that they shall haue a shewe of Godlynesse but in effectes they shall be quite voyde of it And marke well whether they be made Popes by Gods diuine prouidence or no when there was a woman once made Pope they are made in déede by the prouidence of the Diuel and not of God for Gods prouidence knoweth well ynough men from women and hath made one onely highe Bishop which is Christ. Marforius Sawest thou that she Pope Pasquine Yea mary did I sée hir Marforius And what canst thou tell me of hir Pasquine Thou must vnderstande that those thinges that in this worlde are in greatest highnesse greatest felicitie and greatest glorie there beneath are in so much the more basenesse wretchednesse and shame the Popes therefore that in this worlde coulde not satisfie their hungry and gréedy desire of honor being in the estate of Kings and Princes but woulde be estéemed aboue al other men and aboue great Lords and being not contented with this haue lift vp themselues aboue the gospel and made themselues Gods in earth in how great déepenesse of miserie they are their beneath passeth all mens imagination And they are therefore so muche the more cruelly tormented than other as that they haue bene the greatest occasion of the losse of so many people Thou mightest there haue séene them with Myters of glowing brimstone on their heads their other ornaments of their body all of glowing Brimstone with their Chaires of glowing Brimstone and they haue about them as seruaunts woes and Diuels and before them haue they infinite hostes of those gracelesse people that following their wicked steppes are drowned with them in euerlasting miseries al which of them doe nothing else but cursse them and ban them And before this shée Pope stande all those Rascalles and séely fooles that sith her tyme haue beleued in the Popes authoritie and their are they cast in y â— téeth with it and cursed by the Deuils themselues for that after so manifest a token giuen by her from God to the worlde as that they shoulde not meddle with Popes woulde they yet néedes beleue them and follow their curssed wayes Marforius And haue Popes then euen in hell seruantes to waite vpon them Pasquine Yea suche maner ones as I tolde thée of before Marforius Wherein doe they any seruice vnto them Pasquine To torment them euerlastingly Marforius What torments vsed they to them Pasquine To go about to shew the torments of those that be dampned shoulde be euen muche as to tell thée howe manye graynes of sande are in the sea and thou agayne to stande to heare them wouldest be so stricken with feare that thou wouldest not any more giue eare vnto me But let thys suffice thée to knowe also that which Saint Iohn telleth thée that is to were that they are tormented with fyre and brimstone for euer and euer TheÌ„ saw I in sundry places diuers Arches of triumph or Pageaunts as we may cal them One was of Boniface the eyght of that name for that goodly decree he made that euerye worldly creature shoulde be obedient to the Pope as they wil be saued And therein was grauen that decrée in euerye point as it standeth sauing the laste worde which is As they wil be dampned an other there was of Hildebrande the Sorcerer which afterwarde was Pope Gregorie the seauenth for his many and sundry new deuises throughe the which so manye seely wretches are gone headlong to the Diuell and bicause also he did so malapertly stande against the great Princes of the worlde as Boniface and many other and almost all of them haue done An other there was of Alexander Borgias in the which beside his other notable and famous factes was grauen also that worthy and holy acte of his to lye with his owne naturall daughter Lucrece with whome also Duke Valentine his brother lay An other there was of Iulius the seconde full of horrible bloudsheddings and adulteries Another there was of Leo the tenth in the which a man might sée how the tributes of y â— great cities of Sodome Gomorre were brought vnto him And yet was there one much fayrer y â— was preparing for Peter Levves some to Pope Paule y â— third and one for his father also Mar. And of y â— great princes of y â— worlde whom sawest thou Pasquine The greater part and within a fewe of all Marforius What is the cause that so many of them be dampned Pasquine The causes are many but the principall cause is that for as muche as they haue receyued their powers and dominions froÌ„ God as the Scripture sayeth By me Kings doe raigne c. There is no power but of god the powers that are are ordeyned of God c. He it is that maketh the wicked to rule for the sinnes of the people This haue not they acknowledged froÌ„ God nor haue with their good example and good gouernement kept their people in the feare of God nay thinking rather that they did highe seruice to God haue slayne suche as defend the Gospell and the honor of Christ. Whereas they ought rather to haue abolished all the sundry seâ—es of Friers all Idolatries the carcasses and bones of the dead such as they call Saints in the which they put all their religion and should rather haue regarde and care to honest maydens to the poore olde sicke and impotent persones relieuing them with that infinite richesse that vniustely and wickedly are possessed by the smered swarme of shauelings and ought to suffer or rather to cause Iesus Christ to be preached But they doe contrarywise persecute and suffer to be persecuted such as preach him and worsse do those of these dayes than those of foretymes for
whore wyth whom the Kings of the earth haue committed fornication and with whose cuppe of hir abhomination all nations are dronke as the Apocalipse sayth 27 Whether the Pope be that litle horne that hath eyes and a mouth speaking great things that Daniel speaketh of 28 Whether the Pope being Antechrist maye be Christes Uâ—are 29 Whether Monkes Fryers and all the rest of the polleshorne Papists be those marchants of whom the Apocalipse speaketh 30 Whether the Popes Sea and the Courte of Rome which is so defiled with al maner of filthinesse may be called Babylon 31 Whether a man maye beleue that the Pope meaneth or can call a godly and frée generall Councell in the whiche so great an ouerflowing of euilles and mischiefes as he himselfe hath brought vpon the worlde may lawfully be purged 32 Whether Pope P. who is reported to be most couetous doe at any tyme thinke of God sith Christ sayth Where your treasure is there is your hart also 33 Whether the Pope that is guilty of heresie Idolatry and blasphemie may be heade and Iudge ouer a Councell 34 Whether Peter Luis the Popes sonne whom all men say to be a moste filthy Sodomite be worthy to be chiefe Champion and capitaine of the Church 35 Whether it be expedient for the Christian common weale to take awaye from the Pope his kingdomes dominions that thereby it may be sene whether he will returne to the auncieÌ„t office of the church 36 Whether the Pope would haue Germany yea rather all the worlde destroyed by warres than that his tyranny power should be any whit diminished 37 Whether it may be doubted that the Papaâ—â—â— and y â— great beast will not shortly haue an ouerthrow as the Scripture sayth sith long sithens Boheme and almoste all Germany all Denmarke Englande and Scotlande haue fallen from hir and secretly France and Italy 38 Whether the Frenche king haue iust cause to forbidde that no more money henceforward be caried to Rome sith Popes haue in tymes past being furnished with the ryches and armure of Fraunce made warre vpon the Frenche 39 Whether the Pope dispensing all things for money may be called Pope penny Father and therefore be suspected of Couetousnesse 40 Whether there maye be any hope of goodnesse conceyued of the Popes recouerie and of his sworne shauelings sith Christ denyeth that blasphemers and suche as withstande the truth against their consciences can be healed 41 Whether the primacie of the Popes sée be lawfully come by sith it was gotten of Phocas the Emperor who was a murtherer secretely and with great treason slewe the Emperour Mauritius his Lorde 42 Whether the Pope Cardinals and Bishops be or ought to be called Christes spouse sith they kéepe at home so many whores and boyes 43 Whether if Christ were in these dayes among the Papistes he should be crucified againe as he was by the Scribes and Pharisies 44 Whether that Pope that made the decretall De duobus luminaribus magnis be to be compared with them that built the Towre of Babilon 45 Whether Pope Innoceâ—t the eyght that was vtterly ignoraunt and vnlearned might be dispensed with to say masse 46 Whether Pope Iulius the seconde who was a warriour did playnely shewe that Antechrist was already come and that it néeded not any longer to looke for him 47 Whether Pope Lyon the tenth a verye Sardanapalus might be compared with the riche glutton 48 Whether Pope Clement the seauenth who was the match to kindle the fyre of warres betwéene Princes filled vp the measure of his forefathers 49 Whether Pope Paule the thirde who wholly was giuen to Necromancie may be excommunicate 50 Whether it be to be beleued first that the Pope wisheth from his heart y e concorde of Princes sithens his foregoers were euer the beginners of warres Then if â—he wishe it whether it be for the common weale sake or for his owne priuate cause Lastly whether peace made by his request maye eyther be of any continuance or else haue any good successe For that Christ sayeth that an euyll tree can bring forthe no good fruites 51 Whether the Popes purpose when he séemeth to goe about to reconcile Princes be lyke vnto that counsell which the Diuell put into Pilates wyues minde and that was not bicause the death and torments of Christ did anye whit grieue hir but bicause she sawe that hir kingdome and tirannie suffered violence and suche hurt as coulde not be recouered 52 Whether the ende of this alteration of our tyme can be anye other than sorowfull horrible and lamentable â—ithe the filthinesse of the Antechristian and Popish kingdome is so terrible and incomprehensible and the obstinacie so outragious as can not be spoken 53 Whether the writings of Sadoletus and other that hytherto haue valiauntly defended the Popishe church be to be accompted suspect sith now they suffer honors and dignities to be giuen by the Pope whether they will or no. 54 Whether the Pope that nowe at the last hath graunted a legate to Fraunce coulde wel skill of that which was wont to be sayde that is to saye Of two euils that is to meane the Patriarch and the Legate the least is to be chosen 55 Whether the Pope if he knewe that it woulde come to passe that the Emperour and the French king woulde not ioyne their forces togither and help him against the Protestaunts that he woulde once speake of peace or of a generall counsell 56 Whether it may be confessed that God for our wickednesse and ingratitude is not highely offended with vs sithe we sée all our counsels and deuises haue so euil successe and warre to arise in an others necke one mischiefe after an other and all our purposes vpon y e sodaine to quaile so to be eftsones confounded with newe lettes that we cannot sée which ende to begin at 57 Whether that kings and Princes who albeit in this moste cleare light in these dayes can not but néedes knowe Antechrist and yet doe not onely dissemble but also séeke by all wayes meanes to pleasure him and be at the becke of so open an enimy to the truth ought to feare y â— as in time past God tooke from many Kings both their kingdome and people so he will therefore deale with them 58 Whether it be to be beleued that Monkes and Fryers doe purpose or can finde out a true and godly reformation as long as to their counsels and deliberations they admit suche as for many causes are the Popes owne dearelings and that they will rather suffer any thing than eyther to léese any iote of their riches and commodities or else to haue their wickednesse and knauerie discouered 59 Whether the Pope who by Cardinall Contarine at Ratisbona after long contention in matters of religion willed that all things shoulde be referred to a generall Counsell And when the Princes of the Empire determined to haue a Nationall Counsell if the same general