crake before the people that S. Paules wordes are most manifest that al publike Seruice should be in the Vulgare Tongue Now let vs consider M. Hardinges reasons The state saieth he The 17. Example Iew. 204. Slaunderously of the primitiue Churche was farr vnlike the state of the Church we be now in Ergo we are not bound to S. Paules Commaundementes For shame of your selfe why make you D. Harding to speake so Contemptuously of the Apostle and so proudly of him selfe Har. 95. His mynd rather is that It is no Commaundement at al of the Apostle because there were necessarye occasions to geaue it in the primitiue Church which are not so necessary now And so it ceaseth to be a CoÌ„maundement vnto vs. As that women should goe couered it was his expresse CoÌ„maundement yet now I trust you make noe coÌ„science of it 1. Cor. 11 to suffer your Sisters to goe w t open face Not because you Reason thus we are not bounde to the Apostles com maundement but because the state of this tyme and that beinge diuers you would interprete that it continueth no more to be â— Commaundement Againe he saieth The 18. Example Iew. 204 Some one or other in a parisshe vnderstandeth somwhat of the Latine tongue Ergo they owght to haue the Serulce in a strange Tongue Har. fol 95. Not so M. Iewel but Ergo the latine tongue is not vtterly Strange and vnknowen And therefore not forbidden by S. Paule The People is sufficiently iâ—structed in ReligioÌ„ The 10. Exemple Iew. 204 〈◊〉 They come togeather now not so much to be instructed as to praie ergo they ought to haue the Seruice in a Strange tongue Neither is this so M. Iewel but Ergo there is no necessitie wherefore it should be in the vulgare As for this Absolute conclusion that it ought to be in Latine how can any Catholitie make it Whereas it is confessed that the Pope hath dispensed with the Slauons to haue their Seruice in the vulgare Tongue And may if cause so require permit it also vnto other Countries It were good saieth M Harding the people vnderstode the Seruice The 10. Example Iew. 206 Forgette not this good Reader that the People vnderstode their Seruice M. Harding himselfe confesseth it were good And why so Yea but remember good Reader or els marke D. Hardinges owne wordes in which he speaketh not absolutly of the people but of people hauing humble and Reuerent hartes And such to vnderstande their Seruice it were he graunteth good but see what foloweth in M. Iewel And why so doubtlesse because is forced to see and say that it would redound to the Glorie of God And to the greate Cumfort and Profite of the people Therefore he faieth it WERE GOOD whereof we maie gather this argument of the contrary Then that the people in this brute sort is kept stil in ignorance Much making of nothing not vnderstandinge any portion of their Common Seruice by M. Hardinges confession It is il And is it not lawful to doe that is Good to Redresse that Is il to seeke Gods glorie And the cumfort of his People without consent of a General Councel c. It were Good M. Iewel euery man to know The Rules of Physik to haue thereby how to helpe hymself The Statutes of the Common Law the better to keepe them The Counsel of God in working owr RedemptioÌ„ And may you then wel gather this Argument of the contrarie that it is il to be ignorant of Phisike Law Diuinitie Surely least you should take this aduantage And shew after a wise sorte your folly Shameful Craft or Errour D. Harding prouided very well but that you diuide his senteÌ„ce which is but one For after he had saied It were good the people hauing humble reuereÌ„t hartes vnderstode y e seruice Har. I denie not Although you make not only a ful point there but also an ende of your 31. diuision as who should thinke D. Har. had saied as much as he wil in this senteÌ„ce Yet there foloweth immediatly this aduer satiue yet al standeth not in vnderstan dinge By which he meaneth expresly that though it were Good the people to vnderstand their seruice yet it is not il to be vnskilful thereof because al standeth not in vnder standinge as he proueth owt of two places of S. Augustine Now see your fidelitie M. Iewel this Aduersatiue YET which openeth the matter And should goe together with y e former parte of the sentence you cut awaiâ— cleane from it And begyn your 32. diuision with it that you might seeme not to haue Reasoned al in vaine in saieing This is good ergo the other is il Whereas if you take D. Har. whole meaning you shal finde him to say no more in Effect but This is good yet y e other is not to be mislyked Haue you any Priuilege thus to peruert right Senses at your pleasure Owt of Origine M. Harding gathereth this Reason The 21. Example Few 210 The Angels are delited to heare vs reade or Praie although we of our weaknes know not throughly what we speake Ergo the people in Origens tyme had the Common Seruice in a strange tongue Not so M. Iewel although the Conclusion be true but if you add further to the Antecedent as you should doe that the Reading of Psalmes though not vnder standed do prouoke the Angels to help vs then foloweth the right consequent in deede Ergo there cometh profite to the Reader and hearer of the seruice in the Latine tongue Har. 97 â–ª though it be not vnderstanded The people The 22. Example Iew. 214 saieth M. Harding is grosse and simple And can not vnderstand the scriptures by hearing the same in the Mother tongue Ergo they must heare it pronounced in the Latine tongue This semeth to be a very simple Argument It is so in deede yet it is of your owne making which myslike it For D. Har. concludeth after an other sort saieing Ergo if our new masters wil condemne the Latine seruice in the Latine Churche Had. Fol. 98. for that the people vnderstand it not thei must also condemne for a great part y e Englishe seruice Which the common people for y e greatest parte of the Scriptures read therein doe not vnderstand Seruice in the vulgare Tongue The 23. Example Iew. 216 is cause of Schismes and errours Ergo within 6. hundred yeares afteâ— Christ it was ministred in some place in a tongue vnknowen vnto the people Falsely The force of this conclusion is euident A very child may sone see through it Much more then you see through it your selfe And doe ye not then perceaue y â— it is of your owne subtile making and none of D. Hardinges whose Reason is this The people of those countries Har. 99. where the seruice was in the vulgare tongue haue continued in schismes and Errours Ergo example is not to be
to no purpose And this I take to be one knacke of his cunning that he prouided to make his Replie in such a forme as might dehort some frome the Reading because of the length thereof not agreinge with theyr greate businesse And amase other in reading because it cumbreth the memory with so many matters And gette some renoune and praise to his owne side thoughe there folowed no Reading because it wil be commonly beleued that I trow in makinge so many wordes he is not to seeking of an Answer And if he will not haue me to call it a knacke of his Cunning then surely will it be proued to be a Lacke of discretion so that he shall not escape iust reproche either for his craftines if he perceyued it either for his dulnesse if he did not consider it For the biggnesse of a boke is not reproueable if accordinge to the nature of the matter the handeling of it be proportioned But whosoeuer increaseth his worke aboue mesure by taking in that which is not agreable either he is to wise for the Simple by making them conceiue muche of that whiche is litle Or he is not wise enough in the iudgement of the Learned by puffinge that vp to a greate quantitie which would by reason be lesse in Sight and more in Substance But lete vs firste make our Obiection and also proue it and then afterwardes consyder whether it dothe argue a Craftines rather or a dullnes to be founde in M. Iewels Inuention I laye it then vnto your faulte that ye haue ouercharged your Booke with Common Places and Impertinent And because I woulde be mye selfe the better perceyued and you also thereby shoulde be directed the more Orderly to make your Answer I take your Common Places to be of two kindes The one consystethe of Thinges which we maye vse as well as you And to the vsynge of whiche you doe peeke an Occasion out of the Question it selfe though you neede not yet to vse it at all or els more Discretelye shoulde haue vsed it And these I call Common Places The other consisteth of suche Matters as we can not or maye not vse and whiche you also should at no tyme followe thoughe it be moste familiar with you And if at any other tyme you might yet in the case of these Articles whiche are proponed you had no occasion to vse them And these I cal digressions not because the foresayed places might not runne vnder that Title but because in them you may pretend some excuse and here you can bringe none To begyn therfore with your Common places you are surely no niggard of them Out it gothe vpon neuer so litle occasion that which you haue gathered and if none at all be expressely offered yet you will make one rather then not vtter your cunning Will you haue a fewe notes of them I could serue you with a hundred and odde gathered out of one halfe only of your boke and no more But these few which I shall recken may be sufficient bothe to proue my obiection true and cause you to amend that fault hereafter Iewel Pag. 15 Euery man ought to prepare himselfe before he come to God Iewel Pag. 25. The example of Christ must be folowed Iewel Pag. 28 The company of Communicantes was called Communio Iewel Pag. 28. The wicked Communicate togeather Iewel Pag. 45. Small faultes are not to be contemned Iewel Pag. 52. Heretikes haue alleaged Custome Iewel Pag. 66. Deceauers blase their doings by the names of famous men Iewel Pag. 89 The company of Priestes was greate in the old time Iewel Pag. 94 The people in old time did Communicate Iewel Pag. 101 We must be obedient to God Iewel Pag. 107 We must not hang vpon the authoritie of mortall men Iewel Pag. 111 Christes institution must be kept Iewel Pag. 118 Gods holye spirite bloweth where it thinketh good Iewel Pag. 127 The fewer places muste be expounded by the moe Iewel Pag. 131 The mysteries were kept in both kindes Iewel Pag. 141 Manye abuses haue bene about the mysteries Iewel Pag. 143 Hauing Gods woorde we want no authoritye Iewel Pag. 162 All the East spake not one tounge Iewel Pag. 167 Religion came not first from Rome Iewel Pag. 171 God loketh not for vtterance of voyce Iewel Pag. 181 The people of Hyppo spake Latin Iewel Pag. 204 Appeale is to be made to the Churche in doubtfull cases Iewel Pag. 210 Great profite in reading of Scriptures Iewel Pag. 216 Ignorance is the mother of errours Iewel Pag. 229 One Bishop must be in one City Iewel Pag. 230 Vniuersa Fraternitas the whole brotherhoode signifieth the companie within euerie seuerall and particular Diocese 241 Princes haue ben fauorable to Bishops Papa in old tyme signified Father and was geuen generallie to all Bishopes 242 The prerogatiue to sit before other is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 259 In the old tymes men that stode in doubt sought vnto the best learned 263 The Bishopes of other Countries called the Bishope of Rome brother or felow 280 It is lawful for Bishopes to excōmunicat 281 Bishopes haue the alowing of the Electiō or consecration of Bishops 295 Euery great Metropolitane Citie within her owne Prouince may be honored with the Title of Mother Church 300 The Title Vniuersall hath bene geuen to some Bishoppes These be your Common places M. Iewell but these by the third part are not all that I doe finde in halfe your boke And if they were all yet they might haue occupied by very many partes lesse roome in your Booke then they doe What cause then why you dilated them so much Let vs come to one or two particulars That Christes Institution is to be kepte is one of your Common places An other is That the people of old tyme did Communicate with the Priest The first of these you speake muche for and allege to that purpose Iew. 25 S. Paul 1. Cor ▪ 11. Iew. 60 S. Hierom in 1. Cor. 11. Iew. 91 S. Matthe 26. Iew. 111 S. Chrysostom Ho. 61 Ad Po. Antioch Iew. 143 S. Cyprian li. 2. Ep. 3. and ad Iubaianum Iew. 144 And again S. Cyprian li. 2. Ep. 3. Iew. 150 S. Hierom ad Galat. li. 3. ca. 5. S. Hylar ad Const Augustum S. Augustin de vnitate Ecclesiae And S. Cyprian once againe lib. 2. Epi. 3. Besides Indignations and Inuectiues of your owne againste the Catholikes in this matter as thoughe they coulde not abide Christes Institution In folowing of which Place if you had spared your selfe and bestowed that Tyme and Labor in defynyng of Christs Institution vnto vs which you wasted to no purpose in prouing that it must be obserued it had ben wel spent of you and as we Looked for but to proue that which is not doubted of and to leaue the doubt vnresolued which ōly is moued it serueth to make the Replie Greate but not to make it perfite and full The second you proue by S. Iames Lyturgie
saie Our lampes be without light And this may be saied either charitablie enough naming no persons and sorowing y e case either very discreetly against Heretikes which so obiect vnto vs the euil liues of Popes as though it were an Article of our faith that a Pope can neuer synne or our cause were vtterly destroied if so much were confessed or graunted which is so far otherwise that it proueth rather the prouidence mercie of God towardes his Church to be exceding sure greate in assisting the See of Rome in which euil men are constrained to tel Truthe y t y e hope of y e faithful might be stedfast in God August epi. 166. and not come goe at the good or euil life of any Pope These Examples I trust are sufficient and plaine enough of themselues not only to proue that M. Iewel hath very dissorderly behaued hymselfe in repeting of D. Hardings Argumentes but also to warne euery Indifferent Gentle reader of the Daunger which needes must folow if without further serche or Consideration of the mater he take that for a Trueth and Certaintie which M. Iewel once committeth vnto printing Note also that al these forsayed Argumentes which M. Iewel hath thrust out of their right waie to find fault with theÌ„ contynue yet stil in their true sense and meaning without any iust Replie or Answer to the contrarie And so must those pointes of the Controuersies betwene hym and vs remaine as wel proued on the Catholykes syde which are touched specially in these forsaied argumentes and Examples vnto which he hath geauen no direct or cleare Answer How M. Iewel disgraceth D. Har. Authorities CAP. V. IT foloweth now shortly to declare how M. Iewel Disgraceth and extenuateth the Authorities of D. Har. For emong Sophistes it is one of the kindes of Answering when they can not directly or sufficieÌ„tly put away the argument to deface then by A croked worde and a wrie mouth Or a Lippe as it were the whole mater Which the more vngracious it is the deeper it is printed in the myndes of to many And the viler it is the more it needeth to be discouered that ernest and sad Truthe may not be so easely outfaced Surely if in temporall maters where the thinges that men striue vpon are sensible this maner of dealing of which Examples shall folow out of M. Iewell be vsed the Stomakes doe so increase y â— it maketh men quickly to let goe Wordes and to come to blowes Yet God forbid that I should wisshe for any such Conclusion but this doe I meane only that if so greate offense be taken of a Temporall Iniurie much more it should greeue vs to see maters of Religion depraued And truely in Temporall causes men oftimes are to quicke but concerning the State of right faith and vnderstanding they neede not mistrust least they be to deuont and diligent Let the Examples declare whether I burden M. Iewel rightly or no. D. Har. after other causes which moued him not to discredite y â— Treatise of Amphilochius vpoÌ„ S. Basiles life miracles he sayeth at the last that this Treatise is to be seeÌ„ in the Librarie of S. Nasarius in the Citie of Verona in Italie Writen in Veleme for three huÌ„dred yeres past bearing the name of Amphilochius Bishope of Iconium 〈…〉 But A Calues skinne quod M. Iewel is no sufficient warrant of trueth In deede who can deny it Neither doth D. Harding Conclude that it is to be credited because it was writen in veleme but because it was writen so long agoe and kept to this day in a Librarie at Verona D. Harding putteth a case of foure or fyue Another Example which in time of siknesse should be desirous to Receiue And if neither the Preist be able neither other be willing to Communicate with them may not saieth he they Receiâ—e seuerally And doe not they Communicate together See now M. Iewells demeanure Alas saieth he must he leaue al the old Doctours and holy Fathers and begg at deathes dore to geat sumwhat to help his Masse Alas M. Iewel are you so vnsensible Iew. 31. Kynd hart that you thinke it to be a leaning of all Old Doctours to make an Argument of A Sicke mans case And as you haue allreadie made a Rule that no Authoritie against you shall stand but that which is taken iust out of the next six hundred after Christ will you so now perchannce contemne all Reasons as beggarly which are not without a certaine precincte of Deathes Dore I permit it to your Conscience whether this your Alas became your State Or can be suffered in an ernest Question An other Example A Third Example Here first I would aske the Indifferent Reader whether an English man borne might not vse in his writinges the Authoritie of S. Basile And whether S. Basile reporting it y â— they which lyned in wildernesse Or in Alexandria Or in Egypt had the Communion at home And kept it with theÌ„ selues And Receyued it of them selues it were not lawfull to speake it againe and to vse that Testimonie Yet M. Iewell sayeth Verely Iew. 138. if M. Harding could finde any thing in the Church he would not thus hunt the Mountaines neither would he flee for ayde into AEgypt if he could finde any neere at home What would this felow call the Liuing it self of holy men in Mountaines which nicknameth the diligent gathering of Argumentes out of their lyuing a hunting of Mountaines And calleth the vsing of the Fathers of Egypts Authoritie a fleeing for ayde into AEgypt How far I pray you will you suffer vs to goe for an Argument without Obiecting of fleeing vnto vs Yet what aske I you Leaue Or Counsel in this mater which am sure y â— Truth is not founde only in Europe but in euery place of the world where Christ is confessed Againe Who goeth farther He that goeth in his Answer beyonde Reason Or he y â— Reasoneth vpon a fact done beyonde the See called Mediterraneum And applieth it to his purpose Keepe your self warme at home M. Iewell as long as you may for if you be once out of your owne Countrie your Religion is so Vniuersall and Catholike that many myles before ye come to the Mountaines or Egypt you will be taken for a Renegate He hath alleged saieth M. Iewell of Doctor Harding two women The fourth Example Iew. 142 Disdainefully three sicke folk in their death beddes Personnes excoÌ„municate Infantes Phrenetikes and Madd men He hath alleged Napkyns Chestes Chambers Mountaines and wildernesse He alleged these in deede to proue Sole Receiuing And if your Mastership contemne the persons because they were VVomen Sicke folke Infantes Phrenetikes Or the thinges themselues because in telling of theÌ„ mention is made of Napkins Chestes Chambers and Mountaines Yet let the Indifferent Reader consider that these base Persons and Thinges were not by or for theÌ„selues respected of D. Harding but the Authoritie of
Wherefore did you mone this question whether within six hundred yeares after Christ any Communion was ministred vnto the people vnder one kind did ye it not to this end that you might conclude there vpon if no man woulde aunswer you that Christes Institution is now broken of the Catholikes which minister otherwise then they did in the Primitiue Churche Ergo the marke which you loke vnto is Christes Institution which to proue to be with vs or against vs we therefore consider the doinges of the Primitiue Church And because exaÌ„ples are fouÌ„d eneÌ„ in y e age such records as your self dare not yet deny by which we know y e receauing vnder one kind was many times vsed we coÌ„clude in y e principal y t it is not against Christes Institution to receaue vnder one kinde Do you deni y e coÌ„sequeÌ„t How caÌ„ you which haue so appeled to the primitiue Church as though you wold be coÌ„teÌ„t quiet if good testimonies of that time could be alleged againste you What say ye theÌ„ to y e AntecedeÌ„t ye coÌ„fesse it in plain words y e some receaued then vnder one kind Iew. 132. saying Neither did I deny that euer any one maÌ„ receued the CoÌ„munioÌ„ in one kind But yet you reply it was an abuse I here you wel But that is another question The. viij shift And it is another shift also much fouler theÌ„ any of the fornamed Remember your self M. Iewel I pray you and let vs conclude our matters in order The first question should haue bene â–ª VVhether Christes Institution doth stand with receauing vnder one kinde The first w t you but the second rather w t vs is whether any Communion was then ministred vnto the people vnder one kinde We proue you coÌ„fesse y â— some hath hen ministred Ergo it is time ye yeld subscribe A iij. question now if you wil shal be whether it were an abuse in y e primi tiue Church to receue vnder one kind And so furth in many other according to the circumstancies of Persons time and places But before we come to theÌ„ do you in the meane time as you promised for we haue proued y t which you denied Either yelde or take better hold fast and begin again If you striue say ye meÌ„t y t it was not OPENLY receiued vnder both kinds ORDINARIly ThaÌ„ what a trifâ—er or wraÌ„gler be you to chaleÌ„ge vs about circuÌ„staÌ„ces before we wer agreed vpoÌ„ y e substaÌ„ce of y e mater yet if you wil nedes haue OPENLY w t his felowes put in theÌ„ begin again speak more plainly for as ye haue proponed y e mater ye ace ouercoÌ„me And yet before ye begin w t those ciruÌ„staÌ„ces I warn you it wil be to no purpose because our selues may confesse vnto you y t we caÌ„ not gaine say it you shal coÌ„clude nothing against vs by it For y e churches cause is sufficieÌ„tly defeÌ„ded if receiuing vnder one kind may be proued by any auÌ„cieÌ„t exaÌ„ple w tout any exception made by you Thus it may be againe sene how M. Iew. speaketh in all this second Article to no purpose if he make the question so circumstantiall as he hath labored to haue it On the other syde the Catholike cause is sufficientlye defended both by our owne witnesses and by confession of our Aduersaries because it is proued sundry wayes that receauing vnder one kind was knowen and vsed in the Primitiue Churche and therefore vndoubtedly it is not repugnant to Christes Institution The third Article â‚ COncerning this question of the Common Prayers whether in the sixe hundred yeres after Christ they wert in a strange tonge which the People did not vnderstand what can any Catholik of these partes of the world say more then that they were in the Greeke tounge or Latine tounge only For whereas neither Authoritye of Scripture coÌ„maundeth it neither veritie of Tradition confirmeth it neither report of Historie witnesseth it neither yet any Token or Memorie signifieth it that the Publike Seruice of the Churche Easte or Weaste was within the compasse of the first six hundred yeres in any other tounge then Greeke or Latine what lightnesse muste it be to forsake the orders which we haue and take others I can not tell what 1. Cor. 14. The Apostle maketh an expresse distinction betwene the Idiote and him that supplieth the place It is no wisedome to chauÌ„ge that We haue for an other thing no maÌ„ is sure What. Of the Idiote concerning the Common Prayers he geueth no precept of the other he sayeth how shall he that supplieth the place of the Iâ—iote answer Amen vpon thy blessing Now by Tradition we haue receaued no other but Latine or Greeke Seruice Of the change of the vulgar touÌ„ge into any of these two Greek or Latin or of setting vp of these in stede of the knowen and vulgar tounge there is no mention in any writer And laste of al ther can be shewed no token or sufficient similitude that the Seruice of old tyme was in the vulgar tounge Ergo how should a reasonable man condemne that whiche hym selfe seeth so generally vsed and folowe another vnknoweÌ„ manner to which he is vncertainely referred S. Augustine saieth it but of Ceremonies August ad Ianuar ep 118. that If the whole Church throughout the world doe obserue any thing to dispute thereof it is a point of most insolent madnes And if it be so in ceremonies is it not much more so in publike Seruice For in Ceremonies because of indifferencie of theÌ„ in them selues and infirmity of some persoÌ„s which be ouer curiouse against them manie poyntes might be reasoned vpon and If manifest neede require be omitted Yet If the whole Church vse them there ought to be no question But in publike Seruice which perteyneth to the state of the Church and in which the mouing of any dout causeth the whole Religion to be shaken how is it to be suffered that she should be apposed Or that any Priuate persons without reason or authority shuld cal that into question which is generally receaued The Heretikes of this age say that the Latine Seruice for example in all the West Churche hathe not come frome the six hundred yeres after Christe Frome whence came it then Who were the planters of it Who were the mainteyners If they did it w t consent of al the Weast CouÌ„tries that is a great preiudice against your contentionsnesse How unlikely If they did it by force or violence would no man complaine of it presently Or put it in writing for instruction of the posteritie Surely this can not be but a great wonder y t the CoÌ„mon Seruice of the West Church was not generally in Latine euery where at y â— begynning And that so many thousand Churches in so many seuerall and diuerse Countries thereof should altogether most faithfully hold and kepe the same And no man yet tell
of what begynning But what should a Catholike be trobled in his mind or geue eare to Peekers of quarells If the iust and quiet Possessours of Auncient and good Landes should be made to bring foorth Euidencies and either answer to all demaundes whiche it pleaseth the Aduersarie to moue or ells to be quyte and cleane thrust out of all without any further iudgmeÌ„t would it not be accompted so vnreasonable and iniuriouse that no wise man or honest man could alowe it or suffer it What cause then is there why the troblers of quyet possessouts in Religion should be praysed and houoreâ— as ghostly Sâ—ruâ—yers I trow of all Christendome How hold you this quod he Mary what is that to thee Thou seest I hold it Yea but how came you by it Firste who gaue you the authority to aske me that question Then spare not Enchroching and busy heretikes but lay it to my charge if thou hast any euidence against me It was not so in the Primitiue Church Yes forsooth was it Bring me then sayeth he any sufficient authority of Doctor or Councell Folish felow wilt thou put me to my proofes which am in possessyon and haue long dwelt here as it can not be denied thy self being not able to shew from whence I had it except it were of the first Lordes and Patrones What right I haue the same I haue receiued And those that deliuered it to me toke it of others before them And they againe receiued it of their forefathers Neither canst y u proue any chaunge of Titles to haue come in betwene from the first Apostles Fathers to their children which now do liue Is it not therfore a sufficient defence to vs that thou canst not deny but the West Church doth vse and hath for hundred of yeres together spokeÌ„ Latiu generally in her Seruice and art not able to shew where she euer vsed English Dutch French or Spanish Thy silence in this question doth answer for vs. And it should be a demonstration to all reasonable men that vndoubtedly the publike Seruice here in the Weast was in Latin from the beginning TrafitioÌ„ for the 〈◊〉 because no other beginning therof can be shewed nor the ceasing of those vulgare Tongues which as M. Iewel getteth were once vsed can any where be found or espied Thus much should and would be said if the right way might be alowed But now present possession maketh nothing And therfore is D. Harding constrained to folow y e pleasure of y â— Extorciotier to proue that to be ours of auncient ryght y e long possession wherof without any disturbaÌ„ce coÌ„cludeth it to be our right Wherein though he hath done very well yet he bringeth nothing but M. Iewel turneth it to a gesse a likelihode a coniecture Which phrases are so common wyth him through all this Article as though he would admit no Authority or Argument but such as is taken out of the Scriptures or such as should be so euident and inuincible that he could haue no power to answer them His Phrases are these M. Harding is not able to proue this with all his gesses Iewel Againe 160 The Minor he warranteth but by a gesse only 166 Againe Reply is made and that by gesses and likelihods 180 Againe This gesse standeth vppon two poyntes And so in other places moe For this cause that it may be perceiued whether he allso vseth not Gheasses that he may learn in time to be good to others when he is fauorable to him selfe before I speake of D. Hardinges reason let vs a while hold our peace and put M. Iewel to answering Tel vs I pray you Sir for truths sake you which are so well seene in Antiquities and can appose and presse others so ernestly with obscure questions about the Primitiue Church Is it not reason that you geue better instructions which finde fault with the Catholikes opinions And iâ— the iudgment and answere of the whole Church that now is can not satisfye you should you with any conscience require your opinion to be receiued except ye bring Demonstrations for it Tell vs therfore I beseeche you without Gesses Coniectures and Like lihodes which you can not away withall was the publike Seruice of the Churche within the six hundred yeares after Christ Harding Pol. 74. in the Syriacal or Arabike in the AEgiptian AEthiopian Persian ArmeniaÌ„ ScythiaÌ„ FreÌ„ch or Britain tounge Here you may answer vnto vs This is no indifferent dealing Iew. 165 And again Sodainly he altereth the whole state of the cause and shifteth his handes and requireth me to shew But that it may appeare you deale plainly and seeke nothing but truthe Answer I pray you throughly and directly In one example or two you are content but why not in examples for all For the Syriacal tounge you speake the moste but why bring you not somewhat for eche of the other You will refer the rest to an other place vnto which straighte waits we will folowe you but presently thus you say At Paulaes funerall all the multitude of the Citye of Palestine met together Hierony mus in Epitaphio Pan 〈◊〉 The Psalmes were songe in order in Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tonge Well here in dede is mention of the Syrian Tounge and of Psalmes song in it But how proue you these Psalmes to infer the CoÌ„mon Seruice in the same tounge For by Psalmes I vnderstand Hymnes Songes and Praises made to the houor of God and memorie of S. Paula For Theodoretus reporteth as you beare me Lib. 4. cap. 10. witnesse that Ephrem made Hymnes and Psalmes in the Syrian tounge And that the same were songe at the solemne Feastes of Martyrs Lib. 4. ca. 29. Iew. 157 All Psalmes therefore were not the Psalmes of Dauid for Ephrem made new of his owne and the synginge of Psalmes at Paulaes funerall Here beginneth M. Iew. with his â—â—sses proue not but by Gheasse that they were part of the Common Seruice And therefore though ye haue brought foorth a place where mention is made of Psalmes in the Syrian tounge yet doe ye not satisfie our demauÌ„d and expectation whiche aske of Publike Seruice and looke to be playnly and euidently answered Ye adde vnto this a testimonie out of S. Augustine where he willeth the priestes to correct the errors of theyr Latine speache That the people vnto the thinge they playnly vnderstand may say Amen And what of this Iew. 156 This say you of S. Augustine seemeth to be spoken generally of all Tounges To whome seemeth it To your self I thinke and your cumpanie only An other gesse of M. Iew. And if to any other besyde it should likewise seeme so yet Seeming hangeth but vpon Gheasses and lykelihoodes And therefore is neither to be vsed of you which are to resolute to allege them neither to be named against vs which seeke now after your Euidences and perfect Instructions and must
in the vulgar tongue And there vpon foloweth his Complaint what shall we do in our dayes c. He complaineth therfore of lacke of learninge in the Reader or hearer not of the vnknowen Tongue in which the Gospell was read for if the exposition of it doe folow in y e vulgar tongue the Custome is laudable And so hereby is presupposed that the Gospell was then in another tongue then vulgar But now if the exposition foloweth not and few either readers or hearers vnderstand the Gospell what is to be done Verely the suerest way is to sett moe ChildreÌ„ to schole and to make better prouision for Scholars and to chouse out of Scholars in to the Clergie But what is your aduise M. Iew. mary y t the Seruice I trow should be in the vulgar tongue But ye find not this in Iohn Billets complaint And except you gather this Conclusion how make ye an end of your processe with his testimonie Marke I pray you M. Iewel Iohn Billets conclusion vpon his owne Complaint It seemeth sayeth he It were better now to hould their peace then so to singe Lo he talketh of holdinge their peace in the Church not of cryenge out in the vulgar tongue Neither wisssheth he nor alloweth he y â— takinge vp of a new tongue and Seruice but of amending the ignorance of hearers and readers concerninge the old Also he sayeth yet moe Ghâ—sses of M. Iewel It seemeth but determineth nothinge And therfore it is a wonder that you espied not that Gheasse of his wherby we though it made for your purpose are not satisfied And to be as exact as your selfe are he was not within the first six hundred yeares after Christ Therfore you haue sayed hitherto with al your Gheasses nothinge to the purpose nor proued that the Seruice was in the Primitiue Church in some other tongue then Greeke or Latine But perchaunce the neerer you come homeward y â— better you be instructed and therfore leauinge to aske you of the Syrian AEthiopian Persian and Armenian with y â— lyke what say you to the French tongue Was the Seruice of Gallia now Fraunce in the vulgar tongue within the six hundred after Christ It was not sayed you will answere in such order as M. Harding Gheasseth Iew. â—84 Doe you then tell vs without Gheasses I pray you how it was But in a knowen tounge vnto the people Iewel What was that Speake M. Iewel Tel vs of some certaintie for of al thinges you loue no Gheasses That it was in a tounge knowen vnto the people it is euident by Seuerus Sulpitius Iewel To all or some for herein consisteth the very point To some we graunt and that helpeth you nothing To all how proue you out of Sulpitius or any other Here againe you be at a staie But goe ye foorth with Sulpitius The Reader was shut out by meane of the thronge One of the companie toke the Psalter Moregesses for the seruice in y t vulgare tounge Iewel Read the verse of the Psalme Out of the mouth of Infantes and Sucklings thou hast wrought prayse And as sone as that verse was read the people made a shout and the contrarie part was confounded Here we see the practise of the Church of Gallia A proper practise I promise you that as soone as the verse of the Psalme was read the people made a shout Thinke you that this Psalme and Readinge of y e which Sulpitius speaketh was any part of the Publike Seruice Or thinke you the people to haue bene so wyld and dissolute at those dayes that they made shoutes when they were in theyr Seruice But this is enough for you that they made a shoute By which you gather that they vnderstoode what was readde Yet doe ye not satisfie our question which is of Publike Seruice and whether all the people vnderstode it or no. But M. The historye which Sulpitius telleth M. Iew. mangleth Iewell if it had pleased you to haue reported this Historie as Sulpitius telleth it neither we coulde wonder at the peoples shoute neither you make an argument thereof that they vnderstoode the Church Seruice For to adde to your tale that which lacketh when S. Martyne stoode to be Bisshoppe one of the cheefe Bysshopes of the Countrie whose name was DEFENSOR was his greateste Aduersarye Sulpitius lib. i. de vita D. Marti For which cause the People beinge offended with hym when that verse of whiche you speake was readen in the end of the whiche these wordes are accordinge to an olde Latine translation Vt destruas inimicum defensorem they hearinge the worde DEFENSOREM some for ioy I beleue that it alluded so rightely to the name of theyr Aduersarye and other perchaunce of Symplicitie thinkinge that the Psalme did speakâ— of DEFENSOR the Bisshope made a shoute And signified or agreed that it was happelye spoken Whiche I see not howe it proueth the publike Seruice to haue bene in a knowen tounge and all the People to haue vnderstanden it But this I mighte gather that the Psalmes were then openly readde in the Latine tounge In whiche thinge what is your opinion M. Iewel In what toung thinke you was the Common Seruice of the Church of France You answer Iew. 148 Whether it were in the vulgar Tounge or in the Latine Tounge it was a Tounge knowen to the People But doth this answer agree with your absolute intelligence whiche would be compted to knowe the state of the Primitiue Churche so perfectlye that what so euer others bringe agaynste you it muste bee taken for Coniectures onlye and Gheasses See now in what darkenesse of vnderstandinge your selfe are And how much you be to seking when you be partycularly apposed You say of France that they had theyr Seruice in a knowen tounge M. Iew. at a stay but what tounge that was you can not readily tell And why so Can ye say precisely that all the people vnderstoode it for of all the people our question is except ye be sure what touÌ„ge it was And if it wer in any other then y e vulgar French can ye warraÌ„t that the whole Congregation vnderstode it â–ª And marke that they must not only vnderstand it simply but also turne it to theyr purpose cunnyngly Except you thinke that it was an easye matter for euery body to do â—t the reading of the foresayd verse of the Psalme to perceaue the allusion and conueyghance which might be made from defensorem the worde of the Psalme to DEFENSOR the Bysshope that resisted S. Martine And that in one instant euery man did make the sense of the Psalme to answer and serue his iust indignation against DEFENSOR the Bisshope and so gaue an vniforme shout for that they goodwills and the meaninge of that verse of the Psalme did so happely meete both together And if as I doe now tel it there be thousandes which wil not perceaue it forlacke not of Englishe but of
Iew. 11. Abdias in vita S. I homae 30. S. Matthei Iustinus Mart. Apol. 2. 37. Dionys Eccl. Hist cap. 3. S. Basil Lyturgie 38. S. Chrisostomes Lyturgie 42. S. Ignatius ad Philad S. Paul 2. Cor. 10. 78. S. Hierome 1. Cor. 11. S. Chrysost 1. Cor. Hom. 27. 94. S. August In Ioan. tract 26. S. Chrysostom 1. Cor. Hom. 24. S. Cyprian ad Magnum S. Cyril in Ioan. lib. 11. cap. 26. S. Hierom in Eccl. cap. 3. Iusti Martyr Apol. 2. Concil AgatheÌ„se cap. 60. epist Decret Syricij S. Hierom in 1. Cor. 11. S. Ambro 1. Cor. 11. Canon Apost cap. 9. And by the Canon law it selfe the authoritie whereof you doe despise De Consecr distin 2. Peracta distin 2. Episcopus distin 2. Si non distin 2. Si quis Bysides these you alleage S. Clement Ep. 2. S. Augustin lib. 2. de sermon Dom. in monte S. August in psal 16. Clemens Stro. lib. 1. S. Chrysos 1. Cor. Hom. 27. S. Chrysost 2. Cor. Hom. 18. S. Gregori Dialog lib. 2. cap. 23. And when you haue al done no maÌ„ doubteth of it What meaneth it then that you in so Many Places so Abundantly and so Exactly haue commended and set furth these two Conclusions Thought you the Catholikes to be so wicked that they would contemne the expresse Institution of Christ Or to be so ignorant of so coÌ„mon a matter as in the primitiue Church was and yet now still is the Communion TheÌ„ are yoâ— surely either euill disposed or simply practised But thought you it good to vtter howsoeuer it were what you had to say for these matters Verily then Of al naught chose the least and it would be amended 1 either you hoped thereby to make some thinke well of your Cunning and that was a crafty Inuention Or els without further respect to any your Vantage yow busied only your self in a Needelesse Matter And that was a plaine Vanitie Now if it was not neither for lack of Conscience in you nor for lack of Intelligence that you haue taken so greate a paine to proue moste vndoubted and cleare Conclusions it remayneth that you Answer my Obiection by some likely cause and reason And shew wherefore you haue bene so Longe and Tediouse in copiouse and oft repeted prouinge of a plaine Conclusion Vntill which tyme it is casie to be perceyued that these Common Places of yours keepe a Vaine and Superfluous sturr in your Replie to D. Harding * Note COncerning this later Common place so lernedly proued by M. Iewel beware of this One Argument There was alwaies a Communion in the Primitiue Church Ergo there was no Masse For as the world goeth now this word A Communion doth signifie either the act of some receiuing togeather either that proper kinde of Seruice which is now vsed in England at the Ministration of the Lordes Supper In the first of these two senses true it is that A Communion was I can not saie alwaies but no inconuenience wil folow if it be graunted that it was alwaies in the primityue Church And that it was very Common and Ordinarie the heape of the Authorities by M. Iewel rehersed doe make for it In the second It was neuer knowen in the primitiue Church And no One of al the places which M. Iewel hath gathered doth conteâ—e so much Againe concerning the first The ArgumeÌ„t is very false For euen at these daies A Masse and A Communion doe agree in sight together at such tymes as the People receiue with the Priest at the Altar Concerning the second the Argument is good but the Antecedent can neuer be proued that in the Primityue Church such a Single and Simple and Irreuerent and Dead Ministration of the Dyuine Mysteries was vsed then as is taken vp in the Englisshe Communion at this present Of M. Iewels Digressions CAP. II. Concerning now y e other kinde of your coÌ„moÌ„ places which I doe rightly call Digressions they are so frequented of you as though ye founde some speciall Cumfort in them after werinesse takeÌ„ in other thinges And they are so Outragious as though you went not for a Bishope of Sarisburie but were some SlauÌ„derous Fumisshe And vnlerned Protestant And to the matter proponed they are so Impertinent that you may Lawfully be charged with the fault of increasing your Replie with them Haue you so much Leasure M. Iewel to spend your labour in ExtrauagaÌ„tes Or if your Leasure serued you neuer so much haue you so litle discretion to occupie your tyme in naughtie and idle talke In your Answer to D. Hardinges Preface straitewayes you peeke out of y e Glose which is nor Scripture nor Canon Iew. fol. 1 pag. 1 nor Doctors sentence A Slaunder against the Pope And to make y t matter more odious you vtter it as spoken by the Pope him self with his owne mouth I can not err c. Which in deed neither he euer sayed neither they which spake it of him toke in such sense as you doe imagine Fol. 2. pag. 2. In the same answer you put D. Harding againe in remembrance of the Pope and you speake your pleasure of him alleging A Glose for your authoritie Pagina 2. 6. Of your Replie Againe yow be vp with the Pope To what greate Purpose Or vpon what Occasion your self perchaunce doe know but vnto vs it seemeth an vnreasonable and shamefull matter to Accuse anie Person out of the Lawful Court Out of Season and Reason And to speake against the Pope Cardinals Priestes c. when other questions are to be handeled Your part and dutie had ben to answer vnto D. Hardinges Argumentes And not to turne your mynde to finding of Faultes Remember yet how oft ye vse that Lewde figure of speaking against Thinges and Persons out of place As Pag. 11 Against The Clergie Pag. 16 Against Confession and Priestes Pag. 18 Against The Scholemen Pag. 24 Against The Ceremonies of the Church Pag. 39 Against The B. of Rome Pag. 40 Against The B. of Rome Pag. 52 Against S. Hierome Tertullian Origen against Reliques Pag. 56 Against Pope Cardinals Priestes Pag. 83 Against Miracles Pag. 92 Against Deuout answers of Priestes Pag. 189 Against The Pope Pag. 195 Against Aultars of stone Pag. 204 Against The Clergie and Churche This maketh your Sermons plausible and reâ—ysheth al your writinges Pag. 220 Against The Pope Pag. 221 Against The Pope Pag. 225 Against The Pope Pag. 234 Against Bishopes and Priestes Pag. 236 Against The Pope Pag. 248 Against The Pope Pag. 249 Against The Pope Pag. 258 Against The Popes Pag. 259 Against The Pope and Scholemen Pag. 262 Against The Pope Pag. 274 Against The Pope Pag. 275 Against The Pope Pag. 277 The Pope Pag. 278 Against Bonifacius the Pope Pag. 288 Against The Pope Pag. 289 Against The Bishope of Rome Pag. 297 Against The Pope Pag. 310 Against The Pope Pag. 317 Against Scholemen Pag. 313 Against The Pope How thinke
Places which you so ofte and thicke Expound your own meaninge if we M. 〈◊〉 haue missed doe bring againste the Pope are odious at the firste hearinge but when they shall be Considered and Answered either they shall he founde not to be so as you reporte either els to haue a true and Christian sense in them Therefore to presse vs w t them out of Place Season that we should not intend to answer theÌ„ that they so 〈◊〉 away for the present without Answer might hinder our cause in the iudgement of many a Reader it was craftely done and vnhonestlye As on the other side if you God wote meante no harme at all but without all immoderate Affection or Crafty cumpasse went plainely and directly forwarde in your matters only that your Replie might be full then haue you done grosselye and vnorderly To be shorte whatsoeuer and howsoeuer the causes be the Indifferent Reader may iudge of y e Effect and perceaue that they are vndoubted Digressions whiche you haue made from the question to Canons and the Gloses vpon theÌ„ and which I burden you withall And I burden you herewithall so much the more iustely and ernestly M. Iew. finâ—â—th fault with digressioÌ„s because your selfe are so Rigorous vppon lesse Occasion or none at all againste D. Hardinge For when he in the Article of Priuate Masse did put it as a sure Ground that the Masse or Vnbloudye Sacrifice was so manye wayes to the Proued that you coulde not withstande the Catholykes therein Hard. Fol. 25. And towched shortelye in a Leafe and a half the Authorities which dydde serue that Purpose of whiche he might haue made A Iuste Treatise and neuer haue gone byside hys Purpose yet that litle whiche he spake greeueth you so much that you say It is a simple kinde of Rhetorike Iew. p 12 to vse so large digressions frome the matter before ye once enter into the matter As who should say that the Author of a Treatise might not take what Order he would Or that to speake of the Masse were an Impertinent thinge to Priuate Masse Or that in the discussing of a compound it were not lawfull to open the nature of y e simple Or when two things are at one tyme yet couertly impugned to shew that the one of them standeth vppon sure ground thereby to discumforte the Aduersarie After like sorte of quarrelling whereas D. Harding concluded that Single Communion was not only suffered in tyme of persecution Hard. 38. but also allowed in quiet peaceable tymes euen in the Churche of Rome it selfe where true Religion hath euer bene moste exactly obserued caet M. Iewel greately offended herewith all and merueilinge as it were at the Matter But why doth M. Hardinge sayeth he Iew. 5â— thus out of reason rush into the Church of Rome that was longe agoe But why say you so M. Iewel Doth not the Argument which he maketh require that he should commend that See For Rome itselfe allowed sayeth he paiâ—ate Masse ergo it is the lesse to be douted of Whiche Argument because it will at these dayes seeme the worse the more that it dependeth of the Authoritie of that See could he doe lesse then bring one testimonie in the praise thereof and call you this a Russhing in thereto out of season But what should he haue done by your fyne aduise Mary say you See the malice to speake il of Rome he taketh it to be to some purpose and to speake wel therof he coÌ„pteth it out of season It had bene more to the purpose to haue vewed the state of the same Church as it standeth now Had it so And you being so Maliciously and wickedly disposed would the Authoritie thereof as it is now haue preuailed with you Lette anie indifferent man be Iudge whether it had bene aptlye done of D. Harding in warrantinge of Sole Receauinge as alowed in Rome to commend y â— ConsequeÌ„ce by telling the faults which may be founde in that Citie nowe rather then the testimony of the Bishopes of all Gallia whiche within the six hundred yeres after Christe acknowleged that from thence came the Fountaine and spring of theyr Religion Againe let any Indifferent man iudge whether M. Iewell hath Answered this prayse of the Bisshoppes of Gallia geauen so longe agoe vnto the Churche of Rome by his Accusinge of Bisshoppes Cardinales and Priestes Or by Lamentinge the case of Rome as S. Bernarde dyd Or by makinge of Prouerbes vppon it as Euripides sometyme dyd of the Citie of Athens Surely in this very place Is this the liberty of the Gospell or the Charitye of your Sprites where without cause he reproueth his Aduersarie for commendinge out of season as he iudgeth the See of Rome it is a greate shame to Rushe into Discommendation of Bisshoppes Cardinals and Priestes attendinge vppon that See And to like it better to Examine and Iudge the Present 〈◊〉 of Rome then to remember the Auncient Dignitie and Vertue thereof to confirmation of suche pointes as in those dayes were by it alowed Other places and Signes thâ—re are out of which I doe gather that M. Iewel can not abide Digressions as when he sayeth This Question is out of course Iew. 149 We may well suffer M. Hardinge to wander at large in matters that relieue him nothing 153. Iâ— it were lawfull for others so to doe it were no greate Masterie to write Bookes Again These be none of the maters that lie in Question M. Harding maketh a longe discourse of the Apostles caet 155. If he had shewed to what end we might the better haue knowen his purpose But to what end 160. For neither it is denied of vs nor it is any part of our question Which thinge neither is denied by me 180. nor any wise toucheth the question By these I am persuaded that he would haue y e matter it self folowed and loueth not to haue the time idelly bestowed Nowe though I am hable to declare that Doctour Hardinge in these pointes hath done no otherwise then he lawfullye might Yet to lette that passe I Conclude agaynste 〈◊〉 Iewell that of all thinges it is most Absurd in him that is so Precise with other Vnequall measure to be wide and large towardes him selfe in the selfe same kinde of thing for which though vniustlye he reproueth other And if Iew. 153. as M. Iewel confesseth it be no great mastery to wryte bookes if it be lawful to waÌ„der at large in matters that relieue not Let no man wonder at the worthynesse of him which hath wrytten so mightye a Reply considering that he runneth so far into Common Places and Rusheth so fowlye into dispraise of Popes Cardinals Priests and Church of Rome whiche neither maketh the new Gospellers the honester meÌ„ neither destroieth the Present and Auncient faith of the Catholike Church ¶ Of a thirde kinde of Common Places worse then any of