For these are the expresse words of the psalme which he applyeth to the Parliament for dealing in our behalfe so indeede accusing us as the principall offenders in those sinnes that are mencioned in that psalme but yet making the Parliament also accessary with us in them THE THIRD ARGVMENT It was a fault in Pharaoh his butler that he did no sooner remember to speake to Pharoah for the libertie of Ioseph and for his release from his affliction Gen. 40.14 23. Seeing Ioseph had interpreted his dreame of reconciliation to the grace of Pharaoh and to his former place of earthly honorable service in the house of Pharao Ergo The Parliament ought so to remember the interpretation of the mysteries of God his favor and heavenly kingdome by the ministers now silenced etc. That they doe what lawfully they may to release them of their troubles 1 Marginall notes G. Powel a This and most of the arguments following are grounded upon a false principle viz that the refractary Ministers quarrell against the Church of England is the ministery of the gospell the salvation of the people etc wheras indeed all the contention is about crosse surplice and some other indifferent Ceremonyes and actions in the Church And all these arguments doe specially make against them seeing they be onely disturbers of the sincere profession of the gospell and worke of the ministery yea seeing they forsake their calling and moue so great contention And agayne G. Powel b would God they were halfe so diligent in a good cause as they are importunat to sow schisme and sedition among brethren But they deserue small commendation etc. Reply One reply shall serue to both these notes Especially because as it is noted before all the answer is grounded upon a false principle that we are schismatiks etc. and so worthy of all that hath been done unto us To insist therefore upon this poynt I say first of all that this accusation of vs to be such is a most beggerly begging of the question most unjust untrue and uncharitable never yet proved neither able to be proved vntill they proue the matters in controversie to be meerely indifferent to such uses as whereto they are imployed urged by them yea good and laudable Ceremonies matters of decency and order in the Church yea that we also refuse to conforme our selues unto them more of stomacke then of conscience Much lesse can they justifie their proceedings against and punishing of us yea not onely of us but also of our people a thing most unrighteous and odious to God men in such manner as they haue done especially more for these things which themselues call indifferent small pettie accidentall circumstantiall then they doe other for things expresly forbidden by God himselfe a thousand tymes more offensiue to other and more reprochful and disgracefull to our Church profession and kingdom then these things Yea it is to be observed that notwithstanding all these proceedinges against us all our bookes written against the ceremonyes onely to shew the righteousnes of our cause and all their writtyngs against us none of them haue ever yet either in open consistory or in privat conference that I haue heard of or in publike writing made any one no not one demonstratiue reason necessarily concluding the lawfulnes and the good and necessary use of the things they so heavily impose vppon us Some indeed haue written against some of our arguments but no otherwise then the witt of man may cavill against any principle of religion though never so substantially proved by the best divine upon the earth But to returne to the poynt there is nothing in these two notes and in the rest of the booke objected against vs where with our auncients and betters Our betters heretofore charged as we are now haue not been charged in former tymes Elia was charged with troubling Israell 1 King 18.17 Michaiah might haue been charged with singularity and schisme for dissenting from all the 400 Prophets in Ahabs time 1 King 22. Ieremy was accused by the Preists and Prophets of his tyme to haue spoken against the state of the City and to be therefore worthy to dyc Ierem. 26.11 Amos was charged by Amazia the preist with such conspiracy against the King that the land was not able to beare all his words Amos 7.10 All the Iewes was generally accused by Haman to Ahashuerosh not to haue observed the Kings lawes Ester 3.8 Ezra and the Iewes with him were accused by Rehum Shimshay and other beyond the river to Artashasht the King as rebellious and wicked for building of Ierusalem Yea they were not only so accused for the time present but also for the time to come as we are afterward in the 16 Argument in the marginall note with r that if they were suffered to proceed in building of the City they would not pay toll nor tribute nor custome yea Ezra and his companions were not onely charged to be such but the whole City of Ierusalem for former tymes was also charged to haue been a rebellious noysom City vnto Kings and Provinces that the inhabitants therof had moved sedition of old time that for that cause that Citie had been destroyed Therefore also the sayd Rehum and Shimshay and their companions pretended regard of the Kings Honor in writing so against Ezra and the rest of the Iewes Ezra 4.12 etc. The enimyes of Daniell framed the like accusation of him to Darius Daniell 6. Our Saviour himselfe was blasphemed by the name of a seducer deceiver of the people Ioh. 7.12 Yea oft tymes as a blasphemer profaner of the Saboth a frend to publicans and sinners Paule was accused to haue taught men against the law and the Temple Acts 21.28 and to be a pestilent fellow a mover of sedicion Acts 24.5 yea to be an heretike verse 14. Such also haue been the accusations of all Martyrs by the common adversaries the Papistes It is therefore the more to be marveilled at that our Prelats professing and sometime preaching the gospell doe accuse vs in like manner Yea charge us to disturbe the sincere profession of the gospell and worke of the ministery and yet alleadge no reason heerof or at least no other reason then such as for which all or the most part of those before named were so charged as we haue heard For besides traditions of men antiquity not proved at least not true antiquity the commaundements of Princes procured by themselues uncharitably misinformyng such princes besids thes things I say what else haue they said doe they say or can they say The Ministers not yelding to conformitie are no schimatickes Doe we vary from the sincere doctrine of the scriptures Nay rather many of them doe much more swarue from the same especially sithens their late strong patronizing and urging of these things yea they haue fallen frō that that heertofore hath been constantly and generally held by our Church now
England the same are to be iudged and determyned by Ecclesiasticall Iudges according to the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes etc. fol. 39 And againe obserue good reader sayth S. Edward Cooke seeyng that the determination of heresies etc. belongeth not to the Common law how necessary it was for administration of Iustice that his Maiesties progenitors Kings of this Realme did by publike authority authorize Ecclesiasticall Courts under thē to determyne those great and important causes etc. by the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes The jurisdiction therfore Courts and lawes Ecclesiasticall in the opinion of the Kings progenitors were thought held to be their own Kingly lawes Courts and jurisdiction The same is further proved by the sayd S. Edward Cooke fol. 9 by the president of Renulphus in discharging and exempting the Monastery and Abbot of Abinden from the jurisdiction of the Bishops and granting also to the saide Abbot Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction etc by the president of William the first fol 10. 11 who made inpropriatiō of Churches with cure to Ecclesiasticall persons etc. and by divers presidents of other Kings since the conquest That which in this parte of the answer is afterward added of the necessary restitution of the right of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction to the Crowne is also confuted by the same S. Edward Cooke who plainely saith that though there had been no such law of restitution made yet it was resolved by all the Iudges that the Kings and Queenes of Englād for the tyme being by the auncient prerogatiue law of England may make such a Commision etc. And therfore by the auncient lawes of this Realme this kingdome of England is and absolute Empire and Monarchy consisting of one head which is the King and of a body politike c. Also that the Kingly head of this body politike is furnished with plenary power c. to render iustice and right to every part and member of this body Thus farre S. Edward Cooke From all which it followeth that the restitution of the auncient right howsoever lawfully made as being made by the whole body of the kingdome was notwithstāding not necessarily made as though without it the King or Queene for the tyme being could not haue used their auncient right That which followeth in the 2. 3. and 4. branches of this 4 answer to the consequence of this 8 Argument doth not belong to the matter because it doth nothing justifie the proceedings of the Bishops or other Ecclesiasticall Iudges in depriving of the Ministers pleaded for in such manner and for such causes as for which they haue depriveded them The question is not whether jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall by the lawes of the land doth be long under the King unto the ordinaryes nor whether the Ordinaryes in the exercise of the Kings jurisdiction Ecclesiiasticall and Consistoriall trialls ought to proceed by vertue of Peeres etc but whether some Ordinaryes exercising the Kings Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction haue proceeded in their Ecclesiasticall Consistories against some Ministers without authority of the Kings Ecclesiasticall law therfore in that respect contrary to Magna Charta which requyreth nothing to be doone without the Kings law Further De jure Regis Ecclesi fol. 9 although we grant as S. Edw. Cooke instructeth us all lawes Ecclesiasticall derived from other which by and with a generall consent are approved and allowed here to be aptly and rightly called the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes of England yet I deny that all lawes Ecclesiasticall derived by the Kings progenitors either before or since the Conquest from others are now in this age our Soveraigne Lord King Iames his Ecclesiasticall lawes and therefore howsoever many judiciall Acts of deprivation of Bishops Preists from their benefices c. according to the Ecclesiasticall law which is called ius Pontificium which was derived by the Kings Progenitors from the Bishops of Rome either before or since the Conquest unto Magna Charta and since that to the 25 of King Henry the eyght were never all held to be contrary but were ever all held to be agreable to the lawes of this kingdome yet notwithstanding I affirme that all Iudiciall Acts and sentences 25. Hen. 8 cap. 17 how many soever of deprivation of Ministers from their benefices had made and given by the Ecclesiasticall Iudges since the 25. of King Henry the 8. onely according or onely by force and vertue of the sayd ius Pontificium or Bishop of Rome his law the sentences given in the time of Queene Mary excepted are and ought to be holden not to be had made given by the lawes of this kingdome or by the Kings Ecclesiasticall law And why Even because the whole ius Pontificium or Bishop of Romes law was altogether excepting the tyme of Queene Mary abrogated adnulled and made voyd by an Act of Parlament and consequently is but a meere Alien Forraine and straunge law and no municipall law of England and therefore not the Kings Ecclesiasticall law Wherefore our Soveraigne Lord King Iames by this graunt of Magna Charta made by his progenitors beyng obliged to suffer no Free man of the Realme to be taken or imprisoned or disseissed of his Frrehold or liberties c. Nor to passe upon him nor condemne him but by lawfull judgment of his Peeres or by the law of the land We agayne assume from this statute of the great Charter that sundry sentences of deprivation of Ministers from their benefices for causes before specified are unlawfull because such Ministers haue been condemned and judgment hath been passed upon them without lawfull judgment of their Peeres or law Ecclesiasticall of the land For heere we must giue the answerer to witt by these words or law of the land that all the Kings lawes of what nature or quality soever whether Ecclesiasticall or temporall and not only the lawes temporall as he insinuateth are included As therefore no temporall Free man of the Realme may be condemned passed upon or disseissed of his liberty and freehold c. in a temporall cause and in a temporall Court without lawfull judgment of his Peeres or temporall law of the land Even so likewise no Ecclesiasticall person beyng a freeman of the Realme may be condemned passed upon or disseissed of his liberty or frehold but by lawfull Ecclesiasticall judgement according to the law Ecclesiasticall of the land And heereupon we graunt if the King haue any law Ecclesiasticall of the lād for the deprivation of a Minister from his liberty and frehold for not subscription perjurie contempt of Canonical so called obedience omission of Rites and Ceremonyes not precise observation of the booke of Common prayer c. Then we graunt that the Ordinaryes being the Kings Iudges Ecclesiasticall may rightly depriue a Minister from his benefice for these offences And yet still we deny and shall be able to mainteyne that sundry sentences of deprivation made and given by sundry Ordinaries against svndry Ministers be either unjust or unlawfull or no sentences at
wonne the spurres from many other They commonly object this fault unto us and it may be some one of his private motion and disposition doth a litle somtyme offend this way to the greife of the rest that favor the cause But if all speeches of that kind that haue ever been used by any of our side were gathered into one truely and without any wresting they would not a mount to the number proportionably that is apparant and evident in this answer The which fault is so much the greater because the arguments are propounded with all temperance without any just occasion to provoke him except it be as a weake stomake is sicke with the best and most wholsome meate Notwithstandyng I do the lesse marveile hereat because as the more extreame the loue of Amnon was towardes Tamar at the first and the more extreame also his hatred against her afterward 2. Sam. 13.15 So this is often to be observed that such as sometime haue been most hott in dislike of the corruptions of our Church they changing their minds and for preferment conformyng themselues haue become more bitter and heavie adversaryes then any of those that were never other thē conformable men But was M. Powel at any time of such a minde Yea certainly within these few yeares he was so over strong that he called the Communion booke a Mass booke At another time likewise being at a Church and hearing the Latiny he rose up saying come let us goe what shall we now heare conjuring So likewise the time hath been when some other now very conformable haue publikly in pulpit I will not say in my hearing to the disgrace of the Bishops sayd If ever the Bishops doe good in the Parliament house let me be damned Many other the like instances might be named But I regard brevity These things wil be justified Did any of vs ever so be haue our selues If we had we might be justly blamed in that behalfe But I will presse this poynt no further I haue the rather reported this for the better answer of the matter of giddines afterward by him objected unto us 2 The next poynt in the preface is that he chargeth us with emulation of forreyne novelty Ans Neither noveltie nor forreyne We desire nothing wherein we haue not proved our desires by such Arguments of Gods word the best antiquitie and besides which the more auncient any thing is the more rotten is the same such arguments I say as never haue been yet sufficiently answered Touchinge the word forreyne though indeed the thinges desired by us are in all Churches of other Countryes fully reformed in doctrine with ours yet those Churches being all the same houshould of faith that we are they are not aptly called forreyne As Englishmen travelyng in other Countryes and livyng after English fashion are not therfore Forreyners in respect of England whiles they so travell but still to be accounted of the same country so all Churches and all members of the Church in what Country so ever they be are not to be accounted Forreyners one to another because they are all Citizens of heaven and we make all one family or body Besides the thinges in controversie which we desire to be removed may much more justly be called both Noviltie Forreyne because they were not of Apostolicall institution neyther heard of in the Apostles time yea condemned by generall arguments in the writinges of the Apostles as hath been shewed in divers other bookes written one our side not yet answered especially in the A bridgment made by the Ministers of Lincolne Diocesse the Demaunds and in the 12 Arguments as also because they are in use in more Forreyne Popish Synagogues then there are reformed Churches in all Europe Lastly although Communion with the Churches of Christ in what country soever be much more to be respected then fellowship with the sinagogues of Antichrist yet we do not therefore desire that which we doe because it is in other Churches but because the word requyreth the same G. Powel They refuse to conforme them selues Answer None of vs haue ever had the booke of Common prayer authorized by Act of Parliament 1 Eliz. And some of vs haue never had the book now vrged by the Bishops provided for us or tendred unto us How then haue wee refused to conforme our selues Yet we are deprived By what right and equity I know not The auncient approved Discipline Ceremonyes of our Church Not auncient because they haue not warrant from God Neither ever so approved but that from the first Preachyng of the Gospell in this kingdome they haue been by divers godly and learned men oppugned His Highnes sought to reclaime them by some correction of their obstinacy as by silencyng etc. That which his Majestie permitted on that behalfe was qualified with gracious provisors 1. To proceede no otherwise therein then accordyng to the lawes of God and the land 2 To execute even that with all mildnes moderation And thirdly to endeavore to perswade by all arguments rather thē by censures which things because they haue not been done but that in many respectes the Bishops and other Prelats haue exceeded their commission we doubt not but that if it might please some attending upon his Highnes and in grace with him in all humble manner to informe him we doubt not I say but that his Majestie accordyng to his most christian disposition would graciously respect the humble desires of his subjects therein Touchyng the other parte of M. Powels speech it is no small abuse of his Majestie to impute unto him the severitie of the Bishops against us whereas in truth whatsoever his Majestie doth therī is only through their importunity and by their accusing us of schisme disorder sedition etc. The moderat severity of the Bishops Gab. Powel is unfitly and unduetifully termed oppression and cruelty Is it moderate severitie to turne so many Ministers as are now silenced out of their livyngs Yea Answ to provide also that they shall haue no other way or meanes whereby to liue that so they their wiues and children may goe a-begging to the disgrace of the gospell the dishonor of the land the greife of the godly and the joye of the wicked Especially is it moderate severity so to doe for such causes Did they ever read in any antiquity so many of such quality whose labours God had so blessed to be thrust and cast out as unsavory salt in the time of the gospell in a kingdome whereof both King and people doe professe the gospell and in an age in respect of the sinnes thereof requyering ten tymes as many preachers more then their are if they could be gotten If these be the mercyes of the Bishops what would be their crueltyes If this be their moderat severity what would be their extremity if they might be suffered If a Father should cast his sonne out of house home utterly disinherit him because
such a cause take heed you be not found a servant of men Answer But if any in authority haue cōmaunded you this worke did they also commaund you to rayle and revile your antagonist as you call him in such manner as you doe It is lamentable that any in authority in such a Christian Church should either commaund any such thing or allowe of it being done But it is more lamentable to obey The time was when you did well employ your selfe against the Common adversaryes You did then runne well What letted you that you did not hold on in that course What hath provoked you to turn your pen from them and to whet it now the second time against those whom you call and should in truth acknowledg your brethren Doe you feare any violence from the Papists by holding on against them because perhaps of some former experience Indeede you may well feare such violence from them and be secure touchyng all danger from us because you haue learned from the Apothegme after mentioned of D. Elmer late Bishop of London and much more from all experiēce that you may justly feare your life and cuttyng of your throat in the company of one Papist but that no such thing is ever to be feared amongst ten thowsand of those whom it pleased him to call prescisians G. Powel In divers respects I feared to plead in so high a Court before such judges etc. Yet the equity and holines of the cause moved me etc. Answer Why should you feare being commaunded Would not your comnaunders beare you out It may be they will before men but who shall plead for you before God except you repent Take heed you commend not that to be equall and holy which agreeth not with the wayes of God G. Powel I presently resolued to stand in the gap and breach between our brethren and vs. Answer This resolution upon bare commaundement of a man it may be also contrary to the likyng of some to whom you are more bound was too present to be sound How haue you stod in the gap breach By treading it down to make it lower that wild beasts or at the least strang cattell may the more easily break in to devoure the Lords vine and to eate up the Lords people as it were bread G. Powel Albeit I knew my brethrens affections to be somewhat unkind and their pens foule and shamefull Answer Whereby knew you their unkindnes and foulnes towards you Indeed they haue seene and dayly doe see your unkindnes towards them yea towards the Lord in oppossing your selfe to the Lords cause and to them in seeking therof and that in this bitter manner yea for the foulnes of your pen you might justly feare the like measure from them againe to you But God forbid that for that we should sinne against God and cease praying for you G. Powel Seeing it lyeth not in our powers to make them modest peacable and that we are called to serue God and his Church which we are bound to doe in good and evill report Answer You should first haue proved us immodest and unpeaceable before you had used these wordes God giue those graces to you and us The serving of God and of his Church is not in rayling reprochfull speaches in sharpnes and bitternes in untrue and unjust collections directly contrary to the words of our brethren But what meāe you by good and evell report If as patients it is well if as agents it is not so But though by your booke I haue little cause yet I will take you in the better sence G. Powel I pray our heavenly Father to forgiue them any injury etc. Answer Before prayers you should lay aside all wrath of heart and bitternes of word Math. 5.22 1 Tim. 2.8 Pray also sor the forgivnes of the wrongs you doe to vs both in this booke and also in your latine treatise De adiaphoris I haue not with drawne my selfe from this worke Gab. Powel no not for the estimatiō reverence I haue of the graue judgments of your honors If you had duely reverenced their Honors Answ you would haue feared the offering vnto them such a present of raylings vnjust collections etc. As if they had been voyd of judgement not able to discerne of such accusations G. Powel I mayntaine here the glory of God and honor of our Prelats Answer As our Saviour said They shall excommunicate you yea the time shall come that whosoever killeth you shall thinke that he doth God service Ioh. 16.2 So this answerer thinketh that he glorifieth God by rayling on his cause servāts As for the Honor of our Prelats you should first haue been on a sure ground for the lawfulnes thereof before you had taken upon you like a champion the defence thereof 2. Even a good cause is rather overthrowne then vpheld by such meanes of scoffing and rayling as in this this booke you haue vsed Thus much for the answer to the Preface of M. Powels THE NEXT THING TO BE CONSIDERED is his marginall Notes vpon the preface of the author The first note with a I passe by G. Powel b This pretense unto the Christian reader is because they would not seeme to be petitioners unto the Parliament Answer What a strange collection is this Haue we expresly directed all the said argumēts vnto the Parliament house and yet would we not seeme to be petitioners unto thē Nay rather sith this answerer thus carpeth at these words the Christian reader M. Powell maketh the Parliament no christian assembly gatthering from the humble petition of the Author of those Argumentes to the Christian Reader etc. that he would not seeme to be Petitioner to the Parliment may not this be better gathered that the answerer distinguisheth the christian readers from the Parliament and the Parliament from them and so maketh the Parliament no christian assembly But why did the author use those wordes the christian reader The reason seemeth double 1 because he did so account of every one in the Parliament house 2 because he thought that those arguments might come to the handes of other Christian readers then onely of Parliament men G. Powel c The supplicants make the profession of the gospell and all religion to consist in refusing cap surplice crosse etc. Great cry litle wooll Answer This etc. After the word crosse is well added For otherwise although we hold those things to be matters of religion yet never any of us did affirme all religion to cōsist in thē without this etc. therfore this is an unchristian slaunder and to speake according to the answerers learning in Aristotles Eleuchs a fallacy ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter The adage in the end of this note is too homely for that Honorable Court to whom the answerer speaketh as being taken from swyne
conscience of keeping Gods commaundements and observing his word Answer Deut. 4.6 The which to reject is the greatest folly Ierem. 8.9 We haue made no breach or division at all But as Ioseph for telling his divine dreames was hated of his brethren and at the last sold a way to strangers by themselues and as the blinde man Iohn 9. for confessing Christ and stoutly standing in that confession was throwne out of the Iewish Synagogue by the Pharises so to use the words of this answerer we are violently and unjustly broken of and divided and thrust out of the ministery by other and yet charged that we haue made a folish breach and division G. Powel And therefore I cannot allow the opinion of such as giue out Answer Yet we doe all as hartily and faithfully loue and affect our Prince and King yea of whatsoever religion and are as ready and willing to defend his person honor against all adversaryes etc. that these our factious brethren are as dangerous enimyes vnto the state as the papists etc. Neither you nor any other haue ever yet had or ever I hope shall haue cause justly to speake write or thinke otherwise concernyng either our loue loyalty towards our Soveraigne or our duety to any of his governors yea though we should cunningly be solicited to some vndutifull practises as some not many yeares since were in the dayes of late Q. Elizab. of most Honorable memory who were so farr from enterteyning any such motions as that most dutifully they discovered the same to other in higher authority Though I say we should be cunningly solicited to any undutifull practises or to the approbation of any such practise yet I trust that never any of vs shall be found so to offend against his Majesties meanest and lowest officers G. Powel D. Elmer late B. of London gravely sayd If I were in the company but of one Papist I might justly feare the losse of my life but being amongst ten thousand Precisians well might I be afrayd of my Bishopricke but never of my throate the one would cut my coate and the other my throate The Precisians as it pleaseth B. Elmer to call them never desired the Bishopprickes of any of their adversaryes Answer but onely that they would giue glory to him that sitteth vpon the Throne and cast their miters at the feete of the Lambe acknowledging him worthy of all rule and Dominion contenting themselues with the places and Honors commended in the scriptures according to an other apothegmaticall exhortation of the sayd Bishop both made openly at Paules crosse and also printed before himselfe was so advanced in the world viz. that Bishops and other Prelats should come downe from their thowsands and content themselues with an hundred vntill which abasing of themselues and resignyng that which uniustly they hold reigning as Lords Kings over the Lords inheritance neither the Church of God in generall neither our Soveraigne in speciall shall haue so much service and good by their service neither themselues so much peace and comforte of conscience as otherwise would be G. Powel Though they be free from suspition of treason and rebellion yet it cannot be denyed but that presumptuously and willfully they contend with the Magistrat impugning his authority in things indifferēt Cannot that be denyed which never was neither ever can be proved against us Answer 1 We deny that it is the Magistrats meere pleasure that we should conforme otherwise then by mis information of our adversaryes against us as David upon the like mis information of Ziba against Mephibosheth gaue all to Ziba that had been Mephibosheths 2 Sam. 16.2 Yea they doe not only giue all the mis informations them-selues against us which they can jmagine or wherwith they are informed by other but also they labour what they can to keep the Magistrats from all right information in our behalfe by any other yea they indeavour their vtmost to keep both Parliament and all other from mediation for us 2 Though we yeeld not in all thinges required of us yet it is not presumptuously and wilfully but in all humility modesty we contend not by the sword nor any violence but onely by word yea pleading the word of God for our cause Our contentiō also is in a patient suffering with a duetifull cleering of our innocency against the false imputations wherewith we are burdened The things in question haue been said but never substantially proved to be indifferent in such sorte and to such vses as now they are urged Our adversaries haue so long strivē to maintayne the things which they call indifferent for such uses as to which they are not indifferent that they haue made religion it selfe an in different thing to many men In things truely indifferent it is already justified and shal be further justified if neede requyer that we attribute no lesse to the magistrat then our adversaryes doe Let them name in what sense and degree the Papists deny the Soveraignty of Princes in any thinge and I doubt not but that it may be proved that themselues holding their owne principles doe deny the same in the same sense and degree G. Powel All of them make a faction and schisme in the Church for carnall respects some because they know not otherwise how to be mainteyned some to gratifie their benefactors and Patrons and to please their frends some for discontentment and want of preferment some for giddines of innovation etc. What all M. Powell How doe you forget your selfe Answer You should haue left this generall judgment of all to the generall judge of all There is none of these of whom you speake but for the world and outward things they might liue better conformyng then not cōforming themselues What benefit haue any by gratifying their Patrons Will their Patrons giue them better mayntenance otherwise Nay some Patrons are their adversaryes and are gratified by them that put such Ministers out that so they may present againe etc. Some so displease their frends heerby that by their displeasure they loose more in one day then they get all their life by any Ecclesiasticall living Some also by displeasing their frends doe not only lose temporall benefits for them and theirs but doe also hinder themselues of as great Ecclesiasticall promotion as many or the most of the conformable sort doe ateyne unto Some by their troubles for this cause having had good patrimonyes haue consumed wasted them so that in their age when they need most comfort they liue in penury and want and at their death leaue not so much to their wiues many children as was left to themselues alone Some by want for this cause are forced to take their children of very great hope and forwardnes for learnyng frō the schoole and to make them apprentises to their owne great greife and in time to the detriment of the Church Agayne this imputation of
great lets and impediments to the sincere ministery of the gospell If you be of that minde and shew the same it wil be no small let and impediment to your owne preferment with the Bishops If you be not then surely this your note is not worth the noting G. Powel g If we professe Christ and maintayne his gospell what doe they plead for then VVherefore haue they denyed it all this while pretending they labour for nothing but the gospell the ministery therof What an untruth is this Where haue we denyed Christ here to be professed Reply and his gospell maynteyned But though we professe Christ maynteyne his gospell yet we plead 1 for the better continuance of the gospell where already it is 2 That so it may the better be where it is not 3 That it may be more glorified and the better florish and fructifie in all places all which thinges cannot be if the proceedinges begunne be not stayd and mitigated 4 May not a kingdome in generall professe Christ and maynteyne his gospell and yet haue some superfluityes which obscure Christ and hinder his gospell as also want some thinges belonging to Christ and his gospell which may make Christ more glorious and further his Gospell G. Powel h Lo now the Disciplinariay ataxie for which the suppliants plead so much is whole Christ Iesus Intollerable blasphemie So cryed the High Preist Reply when Christ confessed himselfe to be the Sonne of the livyng God Math. 27.65 If it had pleased you notwithstanding you might in charitie haue otherwise vnderstood the authors words But let the meanyng be as you take it haue you caught him in any trap Nothing lesse For what else can be gathered but that in the profession of the gospell here in England there are defects and wants That the Church of Christ among vs is in some sort defectiue And although we haue Christ in his word and Sacraments and in other exercises of religion yet we haue not whole Christ in that we haue not all his ordinances And that therefore some thing more ought to be added that Christ may raigne more fully absolutely over us Neither is there any such ataxie in the Discipline by these wordes signified For we desire nothing but the order wherin the Apostle reioyced Colos 2.5 Whereof also we haue the rudera and as it were the stumps yet remaynyng in our Parishionall Church-wardens and sidemen though intituled with other names and wanting that ordination and authority which with the Pastors within there owne Parishes Elders ought to haue This Discipline if we might haue equall hearing we could casily free from all such imputations as wherby it is commonly disgraced by the adversaryes therof with Princes and Nobles Yea we could plainely and truely shew the same to be nothing prejuditiall but very helpfull both to all Royall authority and also to Nobility yea better agreeyng with the one and the other then all other inventions of men for Ecclesiasticall goverment whatsoever Touching the intollerable blasphemie imputed in the end of this note to the author of the Argumēts by way of an exclamation it lyeth upon them that feare not openly to deny Christ Iesus to be law giver and King of his Church How it can be cast upon us for desiryng whole Christ Iesus I meane all his ordinances I can not discerne Further answer to the Fith Argument G. Powel Zeale and courage for defence of Gods truth and Church is commendable but it were rashnes and foole hardines for any to adventure hazard and danger by intermedling in a frivolous quarrell and in a cause not justifiable Reply Now you pay home indeede If Cardinall Wolsey were livyng he could speake no more imperiously For except by a frivolous quarrell and a cause not iustifiable you meane not the cause of the Ministers you speake nothing to the purpose If you meane that as needes you must then doe you not speake to vs poore Ministers alone but also to the Parliament and to all other Noble men or gentlemen that haue intermedled M Powels censure of the Parliament house or shall intermedle in our cause Yea them you doe not cunnyngly but openly playnly charge all such with rashnes and foolehardines If you had been a man that in heart had not cared for the opposition of any yet this speech would scarse haue beseemed your person One of us for halfe so much against the meanest Prelat yea against the basest Chancellor should haue payd full sweetly But your side seeme to haue privilege of speake and writing what you please against any yea against many yea against the High Court of Parliament Yea against whole Churches and kingdoms For the rest if we cannot make our cause good and justifie the same so that all your side shall not be able substantially to answer without scoffing rayling wrangling and sophisticating then let our quarrell be accounted frivolous and our cause not justifiable G. Powel There are great ods betweene these examples proposed and the refractarie ministers case There should be such ods Reply For the author reasoneth not á similibus or paribus from likes or equalls but from the lesse to the greater G. Powel In the tyme of Nehemiah the Iewes by long captivity were in great affliction the walls of Ierusalem broken downe etc. But our Church hath long florished is glorious still and more and more increaseth I will not say your wordes are like to his wordes that boasted saying I am rich and increased with goods Reply Revel 3.17 and haue neede of nothing but this I say that all beyng granted that you say doth not hinder but further the cause The more the Church florisheth the more easie it is to grant that which the Arguments pleade for Ministers also of the word are as necessary for the preserving and increasing of the glorie of Churches as for the procuring therof at the first But alas I would God our Church did so florish as you pretend Indeed it hath many rich mercyes God be blessed for them but he that seeth not what the Church wanteth doth not rightly acknowledge that which it hath Is this the glory of a Church for Prelates to florish and flant it out gallantly and for their men to ruffle it out lustily Nay rather this is the glory of the world and better beseeming the Courts of Princes and houses of Noble men then the calling of orthodox Bishops who should as well in their life as in their doctrine preach humilitie modestie and contempt of the world The more glorious that Prelats are outwardly the lesse glorious for the most part they are inwardly Yea it is to be observed that the more the outward glory of Churchmen as they are called hath increased the more hath true inward glory decayed The more also that the inward and true bewty of the Church hath decayed the more hath the outward state and pompe of
and holdes of the Devill may be the truth in part but yet they being in the places alleaged called the charets and horsmen of Israel not of the Saints and most of the Israelits being then wicked and these titles being acknowledged of Elisha by a wicked King that respected not the gathering of the Saints but the outward defence of his kingdome by the prayers and preaching of Elisha it cannot be the whole truth That we are such sores as the answerer speaketh of is not proved Indeed some conformitans so account us because we rub their sores so much and desire so earnestly the healing of them that so their soules may be the better saved We are also eye-sores to them but sure I am that we are not so to the godly many of whose sores God hath cured by us and to whom our ministery hath been the savor of life unto life Other thinges in this argument haue received their reply THE 8 ARGVMENT The proceedings of the Bishops other Ecclesiasticall Iudges against the Ministers in silencing and depriving of them is against the law Ergo. This High Court of Parliament being the chiefest Court of iustice in all this kingdome ought to releeue them The marginall notes upon the 8 Argument The first 3 notes I passe by as note-les G. Powel d Object against these and you shall be answered How shall we be answered With words and raylings Reply as before not otherwise To the oth Ex Officio and to the Canons afterward G. Powel a These men would bring in all by popular triall Nay rather Reply would not the Prelats be glad to haue all persons and all causes subject to themselues But more to this afterward G. Powel b A sensles sentence How can a man in matters of eternall life be cast out of his freehold Reply A simple cavill from the misplacing of a comma The Notary might well haue perceived that these wordes in matters of eternall life were to be joyned with the words goyng before ambassadors of Iesus Christ not with the words following should be cast out of their freehold This I say he might well haue perceived because there had been no speech of our freehold of eternall life but only of this life G. Powel c The Ecclesiasticall judge may proceed Ex officio d directly against the statute 1 Elizab cap 2 Reply These two notes being in the margine contiguoe and touching one another I joyne together in my reply the rather because d the letter of the second note and the mention of the statute in the end of the sayd second note omitted they may both in better sense and truth be read thus togeather Ecclesiasticall Iudges may proceed ex officio directly against the statute For touching the former note with c let the best Civilian shew if he can by what other law the Ecclesiasticall judge may proceed ex officio then by the Canon law abolished by statute The second note with d shall be satisfied afterward The note with e of begging the question is now too stale G. Powel f As if God and his Sonne Christ Iesus were not president of the religious assembly already An unchristian suggestion Reply When the Prophet exhorteth the Church to open her dores for the King of glory to come in psal 24 7 9 Cant 5 2 did he signifie that the Church had not before interteyned the King of glory When Christ saith Open unto me my sister etc. doth he meāe that his sister had him not at all before Christ dayly knocketh by his word and Sacraments Revel 3.20 at the heartes of all the faithfull to be let in Are they therfore altogether without Christ Allthough therfore Christ be already president in the Parliament yet by the propounding of any good cause he desireth to be further interteyned amongst them This the author hath acknowledged by calling thē often a Christian assembly by commending their Christian zeale against the Papists etc. But this is the answerers sophistry before noted Sophistry to reason from the wāt of a thing in part to the want thereof altogether Therefore this is an vnchristian and simple collection Further answer to the 8 Argument G. Powel I am constrayned to dance as the suppliants Pipe They lead and I followe Nay we haue piped unto you and yee haue not danced Reply We haue mourned unto you and yee haue not lamented Mat 11.19 Neither to evident Argumentes out of holy scripture will you submit your human ordinances or your selues neither by any gentle and humble petitions will yee Prelats come to any brotherly peace Mildnes doth as much provoke you as bitternes M. Nichols of Kent writyng most mildly and humbly was rewarded severely with suspension deprivation degradation Our most humble petition to the Convocation at the first Session of this Parliament received a most rough answer We seeke peace and when we speake thereof ye are bent to warre psal 120 7. Iob. 31 8. As though yee sate in heavenly places we haue been unto you more vile then the earth I complaīe not thus of all the Prelats I know that some are wiser milder kinder and more curteous thē other As the bramble tooke more upon it then the Oliue tree Iudg. 8.15 the vine or the fig tree so sometyme it is among Prelats G. Powel Hitherto they prayed your Honors but to speake for them etc. Now they urge you to determyne and actually to decree something in their behalfe We neither prayed nor urged any thing to be doone but with all humility and loyalty G. Powel hoping that his most excellent Majesty vpon the sight of the reasons why they had decreed or determined any thing so farre as they might among themselues would likewise in his Princely and christian regard haue vouchafed his Royall assent to their such decrees and determinations which although it haue not pleased his Highnes yet to doe yet we hope that heerafter upon further cōsideration some other may find further grace with his Majestie in the like behalfe G. Powel To the consequence of the former Argument The consequence hath 2 parts whereof the first is granted but that the deprived and suspended ministers ought to be restored is denyed because they haue not justified their cause and declared that they are vnjustly oppressed nor can ever doe Reply Touching the former answer may it please the reader first to remember that all the authors speech of the proceedings of the Bishops against Ministers suspended etc is only to be understood of such Ministers as whom they suspend and depriue onely for such causes as are mentioned in the title of the Argumentes not of other whom they suspend or depriue for any just cause Now to proceede that such Ministers haue not yet in law whereof the present question is justified there cause and declared that they are unjustly oppressed nor can ever doe is not
not Circumcising Cain and Abell did contrary to the law given for Circumcision to Abraham many yeares after Or whither Ishmael persecuted Isaack before Isack was borne Or whether stealing of horses an hundred yeares past were punishable with death before any law made for death in that behalfe One thing cannot be sayd contrary to an other that is not neyther ever was extant in rerum natura The Second part of this Quere whether since the granting of Magna Charta unto this age the judiciall acts of deprivation of Bishops etc were ever held to be contrary to the law of this kingdome and Magna Charta we shall answer if God permit more plentifully anone Quere 3 G. Powel 3 Quere Whether any Iudge of this Realme or any cheife officer lerned in the lawes be of opinion that such sentences of deprivation as haue lately passed in due forme in any Ecclesiasticall Court be contrary to any much lesse to many statuts Reply Though it were a sufficient answer to bid him goe looke and himselfe to aske the opinion of every judge learned officer yet will I not altogether yeld him so short and cutted an answer And though it be a principle in Philosophy that forma dat esse rei yet to the beyng of every thing there must be matter to which the forme giveth being And therefore in this case besides due forme there must be also due matter inserted in due sentences Wherupon I craue a resolute and direct answer whether by those words passed in due forme he meane passed for matter and forme in due forme Or whether he meane passed without due matter in due forme onely For if he meane by passed for matter and forme in due forme then is his question without question either a foolish question or no question at all For who would question whether any Iudge or learned officer could doubt that a sentence passed for matter and forme in due forme were a sentence contrary to any much lesse to many statuts As though there were any Statuts so ridiculous and absurd On the other side if he meane by passed in due forme only due forme without due matter then we answer that the same sentence may be unjust for want of due matter and yet be just by reason of due forme And so on the other parte we affirme that a sentence may be iust by reason of due matter and yet unjust by reason of an undue forme How many sentences therefore of deprivation soever as haue been lately given without due and just matter or without due and iust forme we answer so many not to haue passed in due matter and forme and so contrary to some lawes or statuts But were this question wholly grāted what ease and advantage can the opinion of any iudg or learned officer yeeld to those Iudiciall acts of deprivation wherupon the controversie is grounded which are not passed in any due forme of any law or Statute Ecclesiasticall whatsoever Furthermore touching this question if the Prelats did intend that all their sentēces should be according to law wherfore did they make a Canon against the ordinary prosecution of appeales Yea what needed such a Canon What benefite is there to any appellant by his appeale from a just sentence Or what danger to the Iudge a quo by such appeales The whole danger is to the appellant himselfe For the sentence beyng just he shall be sure to get nothing neither the Iudge a quo to lose any thing by the appeale G. Powel VVho having but halfe an eye doth not see but that by pleading Magna Charta cap. 29 they would not onely weaken but also subvert and utterly overthrow all jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall Doth every one that desireth limitation of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Reply and laboreth to restrayne it from all communion of forreyne lawes seeke the subversion therof If also the lawes Ecclesiasticall be the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes and the jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall the Kings Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction then is this place of Magna Charta so farre from subverting the jurisdiction or law Ecclesiasticall as that by that place the same law and jurisdiction is up held and more throughly established That the law jurisdiction Ecclesiastical ever hath been and yet is accounted the Kings Ecclesiasticall law and juridiction shall be shewed anone G. Powel The sentences and graue determinations whereof that is of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction haue never yet in any age or Country been submitted to popular triall by the judgment of Peeres etc Reply All sent ces of Ecclesiasticall Courts are not so graue but that some are somtymes repealed by Higher courts and sometymes revoked by themselues Sometyme also they meddle with matters not belonging unto them and therfore by ordinary course of Commmon law they are prohibited to proceed Finally in some case the Bishop giveth not Institution to a benefice untill by a Iury of 12. men whereof 6. are to be of the Clergy and 6 of the Layity the controversie de iure patronatus be decided Yea sometyme the Bishop having instituted a clarke is forced by writ from the common law to admit of another clark presented by another Patrone and so to displace him whom before he had instituted G. Powel The place of Magna Charta cannot be understood of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction or the practise thereof especially if we consider the end why this law was made and the tyme when The Prelats should make sure worke indeed Reply if they could make that no lawes were against their power Thē might they take upon them without controlment what they would under coloure of Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction as indeed they doe now pretily beginne to doe G. Powel The end was that the Kings of this Realme might not challenge an infinit and absolute power as some Kings else where did and yet doe without judgment and lawfull proceedings to take away any mans liberty life Country goods or lands Then belike the Kings Majestie is restrayned by Magna Charta but the Prelacy is not Reply Is not this good stuffe The King shall weare the Crowne but the Prelats will beare the sword Whether now doe they that are falsely called Puritans or the Prelats most encroch upon the Royall authoritye G. Powel It was made at such time as the Kings thought Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction no more in right then in fact to belong to the Crowne Therfore the words haue no relation to Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction This is utterly false Reply yea the falshood therof is evident by the testimony of that worthy and renowned Lawyer S. Edward Cooke in the booke alleadged by the answerer For he sayth expresely that as in temporall causes the King by the mouth of Iudges in his Courts of Iustice doth iudge the same by the temporall lawes of England lib. de jure regis Eccle. fol 8 so in causes Ecclesiasticall etc. the connusance wherof doth not belong to the common lawes of
all for the reasons and causes before specified It is therefore erroniously alleadged that that which was done by jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall when Magna Charta was granted was not at that tyme taken to be done by the King or by his authority and that the lawes which Ecclesiasticall Iudges practised were not then held to be the lawes of the land or the Kings lawes For the Kings progenitors did both thinke and held that jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall did in right belong unto their Crowe and therefore in fact by right of their crownes did they both exercise and commaund to be exercised in their Kingly names their Kingly right authority and jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall within their Realmes For how could those Kings haue commaunded and how could their subjectes haue obeyed if the Kings themselues had thought and held that the Ecelesiasticall courts lawes or jurisdiction were not in right no more then in fact at that tyme belonging unto the Crowne as the answerer vaynly and childishly fancyeth Which fancy also seemeth sufficiētly confuted by the very title of S. Edward Cooks booke de iure regis Ecclesiastico For how could the Kings before and after the Conquest unto Magna Charta have been justly intituled to Kingly right of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction if the Kings had no Kingly Ecclesiasticall right or jurisdiction at all G. Powel Breifely the lawfullnes of they deprivation of the refractary Ministers is a plaine case adjudged in open Court as appeareth in S. Edward Cookes Report part 5 in Cawdries case according to a Statute of I. Elizab. cap 2. c. It is a most playne and cleere case that neither the case of Cawdrie Reply is the case of sundry the late deprived Ministers nor that the case of sundry the late deprived Ministers is the case of Cawdrie Cawdrie was deprived not by his Ordinarie but by the Queenes Ecclesiasticall high Commissioners not for not subscribing to the 3 Articles not for the not use of rits and Ceremonyes not for the not exact S. Edward Cook de jure regis eccl Cawdries case fol. 3 and precise observation of the booke of Common prayer But as well for that he had preached against and depraved the said book as also for that he refused to celebrate divine service according to the sayd booke Agayne in his cause it being found before the High Commissioners that he had uttered verba convitiosa and contumeliosa convitious and contumelious words looke sent against Caw against the boke of Common prayer the case was not whither his fact were punishable by the Statute for of that no man then doubted but whether his depravation and preaching against the booke of Common prayer beyng the first offence committed by him against the Statute he was punishable by tenor of the statute for the same his first offence by depravatiō yea or no Lastly Cawdries offence was punishable as well before the Queenes Iustices by imprisonment and losse of one whole yeares profites of his spirituall promotions as by deprivation before his Ordinary None of all which things were within the cōpass of sundry the late deprived Ministers For non of thē ever preached against the booke nor depraved the same They never refused to obserue the same booke according to the proeme of the booke tenor of the statute They were so farr from claymyng any immunitie from being depraved for their first offence as that they stood and yet doe stand upon their innocencyes not to haue committed any offence at all against the statute punishable with deprivation by the statute they alleadge that they were not punishable before the Kings Iustices by the statute for these facts which they were charged by their Ordinaries to haue committed against the statute and for which they were deprived Lastly some of them were deprived not for any fact done committed or perpetrated but for not promissing heereafter to obserue the whole booke And what an unconsiderate part therefore is it to avowe the lawfulnes of the deprivation of all the late silenced Ministers to be a playne case adjudged in open Court when neither their case nor any like case to som of theirs was ever yet brought or argued before the Kings Iustices in any of the Kings open courts at all Touching the statut alleadged 1. Elizabeth it helpeth nowhitt at all the late deprivations of sundry Ministers First because such Ministers as haue been deprived onely for not conformyng themselues to the use of the booke provided by the parishioners cannot truly be charged to haue refused the booke commaunded by the statute Because the same booke was never provided for them Secondly the statute punisheth not every refuser but wilfull and obstinate refusers They then that upon conscience onely of Gods word doe refuse to obserue al things conteyned in the booke cannot be iustly called obstinate refusers till their groundes out of the word be by the word removed Thirdly the statute requyreth some Act done committed or perpretrated against the Statut but some Ministers haue been deprived only for not promising c as before was sayd Fourthly the statute appoynteth the Ordinaries to proceed by inquisition accusation or information But many of us haue been deprived without any of these meanes and onely upon Proces Ex officio mero Heerby therfore appeareth how unjustly and directly contrary to the words of the statute you insert this Parenthesis which they may doe Ex officio as if they might by vertue of this Statute proceed Ex officio wheras the Statute expresly requyres inquisition accusation or information Is this good interpretation If you doe so interprete the scripture directly contrary to the wordes of scripture in the same place you make but mad interpretations Touching that which is objected against all hitherto spoken in the poynt of the law of the opinion of the Iudges to be against the same may it please the reader to remember the saying of an Honorable and most renowned Counseller in that behalfe viz. that in such cases and all other men are not so much to respect what judges speake standing bare headed 2 chro 19 6 as what they say sittyng upon the judgment seate representing the Kings person yea not executing the iudgment of man but of the Lord when all men stand bare headed before them Concernyng the oth Ex officio of the othe ex officio we affirme that the law of the land is against the exercise of the same oath by Ordinaries and other judges Ecclesiasticall The Common law of this kingdome which is grounded upon the law of God and of reason doth hate and abhorre it First in respect of the fraylty of man who for the safitie of his life libertie credit and good name will not spare to prophane even that which is most holy and by committing sinfull perjury hazard his soule which the subtle serpēt wel knew in generall though he were deceaved in the perticuler in that he sayd unto God concerning Iobskinne for skinne and
more to be respected Marginall notes G. Powel a True if they continue diligent in their vocation But beyng mēbers rent and cut from the body of the Church of God in this land they are unserviceable for the same What man Haue you unchristened us Are we now Heathen and infidells agayne It may be you will say we are worse Reply lib de Adiaphoris yea you haue already called us Apes Before also in a note we haue been secretly compared to swyne But how then doe you call us your brethren He is certaynly of a strange stocke that hath Schismatikes falss prophets heathens and infidells Apes and swyne to his brethren But it were good that some of the Prelats that made the Canons and doe execute the same did consider in what danger they are by the statute of Excommingment for making and executing Canons contrary to former laws and statuts of this kingdome Heere agayne behold the admirable efficacy of conformity as that wherein consisteth the life of the Church and wherby men are members yea Angels of the Church in England without which men are not so much as members thereof G. Powel b Are they faithfull that fall from their rule of obedience Reply So long as we keepe our selues to Gods word we fall not from our rule or obedience For we acknowledge no other rule or obedience Luther left the rules and obedience of Monks so many other left other rules of Popery Yet I hope you will not deny thē to haue been faithfull or call them schismatikes As for your rule and obedience of Conformity in some perticulars many of us haue not fallen from them First because we never yelded to them 2 Because to leaue Conformity is not to fall that is to goe downward but to arise that is to goe upward Bittter rootes spring up that is come out of the earth frō beneath Heb 12 15 prov 15 24 Iames 1.17 But the way of life is on high and every good and perfect gift commeth from aboue They that haue left conformity are more ashamed and greived for having been Conformable then for leavyng it though they pay sweetly for it Further answer to the 12. Argument G. Powel 1 Neither are the prayers of Schismatiks much to be regarded 2 Neither will the Honorable court of Parliamēt altogether neglect the refractary ministers 3 Nether can the refractary ministers in charity but pray for the high court yea in case they did not satisfie their desire This answer consisteth of 3 parts according as I haue noted the same Concernyng the first Reply it is not much to be denyed if men be schismatikes indeed and not only in name Therefore touchyng that and the second neither the answerer nor all the Prelats in the world shall ever proue us schismatikes and refractaryes as they unjustly terme us For the third albeit the High Court of Parliament would doe nothing in our behalfe yet we will say with Samuell 1 Samuell 12 13 Genes 20 7 Ezra 6 10 God forbid that we should sinne against the Lord and cease praying for them Notwithstanding it cannot be denyed but that the more justice and kindnes we shall receiue from them or by them either at this Session or at any other heerafter the more we should be both bound and quickened to pray for them But the zeale of the Parliament in doeyng so much all ready for us as they haue doone is worthy our remēbrance whilst we liue Though it haue not that successe presently that we haue desired yet we know not what it may haue in tyme upon further consideration thereof by his most excellent Majesty and by his wise and most Honorable Counsell No seed groweth presently yea the best seed lyeth longest in ground for the most part before it appeare especially before it yeeld fruit agayne That that is doone also shall be a good evidence for us and for the equity of our cause as also against the Prelats to all posteritie whatsoever reproches and other indignityes in the meane time we susteyne eyther by their speeches or by their vnjust writyng vpon record against us Contradiction or cōtrarietie But here is further to be noted the contradiction or at the least the contrariety of this answerer even in this very part of his answer For in the first parte therof he sayth the prayers of Schismatikes are not much to be regarded Where his meaning by comparyng these words with other his termes of being rent cut of frō the Church obstinat wilfull etc must needes be that our prayers are of no regard In the third parte notwithstanding he sayth that we ought to pray for the Parliament though they should doe nothing for us accordyng to our desire Ought we to doe that which is of no regard of no use of no benefite to no purpose math 12 23 Shall not we giue account of every idle word much more of every idle prayer Yea are not the prayers of all obstinat wilfull impudent schismaticall and seditious persons and of all lyers and false Prophets such as he hath often called vs to be abominatiō to the Lord prov 15 8 How then are we bound to pray for the Parliament or for any other Are we bound to doe that tnat is sinne and wherof we shall giue an account 2 If they had still made conscience of their duety in their Ministery Reply their prayers had been much more effectuall Behold what conscience these men make of subscription Cross surplice conformity G. Powel and other perticular obedience that make no conscience of preachyng yea not of commyng to their flockes once in a yeare yea some not once in 3. or 4. yeares Is it not strange also that surplice and cross should ad such efficacie to prayers How merry then would it be with England if all men in all places were forced to were a red blue greene white or yellow cross vpon their hats sleeues or brests etc And if every man woman and child might never pray privatly or publikely but in a surplice Further I pray God that such as make so light account of our prayers for them doe not by their hard dealyngs with us force us to cry for help from God against them and then feele the virtue and efficacy of our prayers in this behalfe to their greife For shall not God aveng his elect which cry day and night unto him Luc 10 7 yea though he suffer long for them I tell you he will aveng them quickly Let not this be lightly thought on In the meane tyme also how vilesoever our prayers are in their judgements yet let this answerer all other our greatest adversaryes understand that they are not so in the sense feeling of those mercyes that they doe dayly enjoye as well by our prayers as by their owne For our consciences bearing witnes our prayers are of faith and in truth loue we doubt
like touching their perticular sinnes The second note with b is nothing because the schisme is not yet proved against us Though we deny not but that for our sinnes the Lord hath visited this land as well as for the sinnes of other yet not for any schisme of ours The like I say for the like cause of the note with c And though it behoveth the Parliament especially to consider of the workes of God as representing the body of the land yet I wish all other likewise to consider of the same G. Powel a I will not descant of the Suppliants meanyng in alleaging this example The wise may consider it So the wise may consider how foolish malice is Reply for want of matter from words to wrangle with a mans meaning The example is good and holy The Bee will gather hony out of a stinkyng weede but the Spyder sucketh deadly poyson out of the fayrest and sweetest flower The flatterer careth not what he say against one so that he may please another G. Powel e To wit by setling the state thereof against hereticall Papists and schismaticall refractarves I grant this Reply it beyng understood of such schismaticall refractaryes as in part rent themselues both from the Apostolicall doctrine and also from the auncient Apostolicall Churches as likwise frō all other Churches throughly in doctrine reformed and so stand in medio betwixt such Churches and the Romish Synagogues Who also beyng admonished thereof in duetifull manner by their brethren yea by some speciall works of Gods loving severity doe persist in their sayd schisme in a most refractary manner G. Powel f As if no good could come unto the Church but the restitution of schismaticall Ministers which is indeed no good Reply Let the reader be pleased to see whereupon this note is gathered and he shall see that there is no ground therof The author onely asketh a question upon former promises whether such and such thinges considered the Parliament would dissolue their meeting without doeyng any further matter in that behalfe that is for the Ministers pleaded for then they had donne He doth not say without doyng any good but any further matter insinuating thereby that they had done something allready agayne he speaketh not of all causes but only sayth in that behalfe But this is the answerers sophistry Sophistry often detected Howsoever he say no good hath been done by Ministers whō he calleth refractary yet thowsands that feare God can testifie that the Church hath received more good by such Ministers then ever it hath or will by any Papall Prelats careles Non-residents trencher chaplins and idle bellyes that seeke their owne and not the thinges that are Iesus Christs and who are noted in all publike meetings for reformation of abuses more to hinder then to further all good motions against the Papists against swearing for the religious observation of the Saboths etc then common Christians at the least then those that they doe contemptuously call laye persons G. Powel g What godlines is there in wilfull and malicious confronting the Magistrat in repinyng at their brethren and superstitous for sakinge their callings flockes and all to the vndoyng of themselues their wiues children and frends Reply None at all But who doe more comfront the Magistrat in all kingdomes then Papall Prelats that hold their owne jurisdiction to be iure divino by Gods law and that therefore deny all Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction to be absolutly invested into the crowne of those kingdomes where they liue that take upon them to deale withovt law besides law and directly contrary to law and that many wayes oppresse the Magistrats subjects at their pleasure As for us I haue sayd before I say agayne and it is published to all the world in the booke intituled A protestation of the Kings Supremacy that we are so farr from confronting the Magistrat that we attribute much more unto him then all rhe Prelats doe Touching repinyng at brethren I know none guiltie heerof except wishing that Christ Iesus may haue his owne the Church her owne the Magistrate his owne the Ministers of Christ and the subjects of the Magistrat their owne yea every Byrd to haue her owne feathers I know none I say to repine except wishing of these things and that every mortall man would content himselfe with his owne be to repine The rest of this note hath been answered G. Powel h A calumnious censure What Reply To say that vnworthy persons are thrust out into some of their places that are deprived A man need not to ascend into an high mountaine or to ryde many myles out of London for proofe therof The next note with b after h and before a as though the Notary had forgotten his alphabet is often answered The next note also with a after b is not worthy of answer G. Powel l VVe must wisely distinguish between such things as are proper to the Papicy and what they haue by vsurpation but are proper to the true Church of God Are Coapes Surplices and Crosse etc Reply proper to the true Church of God If they be not why is this noted upon the authors petition in this Argument for removing of Popish ornaments If they be then either it is no Church or an imperfect Church that wanteth them G. Powel m Proper thereunto Are no appurtinances of Romish religion to be hated Reply but such as proper thereunto This is wonderfull For what appurtinances are there of Romish religion which agree not either with Iudaisme or Paganisme We are therfore to abhorre whatsoever appurtinance of Romish religion whereof there is no necessary use in the service of God and which were better abolished then reteyned Thus much to the marginall notes of this 17 Argument In the rest of the answer he dealeth deceitfully racking divers particular examples applyed by the author only for amplyficaton and illustration of this generall Argument or of some perticular branch thereof racking I say such perticular examples and applying them to the maine conclusion and petition as intended by the author for a severall Argument to confirme the same Wheras in like manner he might haue done the like with divers other perticulars in this generall Argument comprehended But let us see what he sayth Further answer to the 17. Argument G. Powel In this Argument the Suppliants doe certeynly very worthily christianly discourse as of sundry other things so especially concerning the Lords great mercyes etc. In these words let the contrariety of the answerer to almost in his whole answer written Reply be observed For he being a scholler his words must be schollerly interpreted Because therfore we are not to doubt but that the answerer remēbreth as well what he hath learned in the Ethicks as in the Elenchs of Aristotle may it please the reader to vnderstand or rather to remember that Aristotle in his sayd Ethnicks maketh
done by the other Let all Prelats that pleade more stoutly for superstitious Romish raggs then they doe duly regard Gods holy ordinances let such Prelats rather take heede that such things as are here threatned to the Parliament by the answerer doe not be fall unto them Whereas the answerer in his answer to the â—4 supposed Argument betwixt the third and the first reckoneth us up in the bitternes of his spirit with all Schismatikes Heretikes Papists Athists murtherers theues cutpurses etc therin he sheeweth his brotherly loue and kindnes towards us Esa 53 12 Mar 15 27. and how well he spareth us But sith Christ Iesus was couÌ„ted among the wicked yea crucified betwixt two theeues yea and had also a murderer preferred before him why should we his servants wretched men and great sinners be greeved or ashamed thus to be reckoÌ„ed with such vile persons 2 Tim 2.12 Iohn 17.24 Yea rather we may the more comfort our selues because if we suffer with him we are the better assured that we shall reigne with him who hath prayed the Father that we may be with him even where he is to behold his glory G. Powel For Siserae was a speciall enimy of the children of Israel Iudges 4.2 The instance of Iaeel is altogether different and Church of God but the ornaments the Supplicants speake of are the good creatures of God having no hurt at all in them Was not Sisera also the creature of God Reply and in that respect may it not be sayd that he had no evill in him And is not the Pope also an enimy to the people and Church of God as well as Sysera was Yea is he not much more in as much as he is enimy to their spirituall state and everlasting salvation Moreover touching the ornaments of Popery mentioned in the Argument doe we speake of them as they were the creatures of God or as they were and are still by many Papists abused to Idolatry What doth the answerer say for them that might not haue been sayd for the covering of the images of silver Isa 30 22 which the Iewes that should truely repent of Idolatry were to pollute that is to account as thinges polluted and for the rich ornaments of the images of gold which also they were to cast away as a menstrous cloth Sophistry and with great disdayne to say unto it get thee hence What fallacy this is the answerer knoweth G. Powel Neyther were the Popish Priests ever decked with our ornameÌ„ts neither are they now Neither were our ornaments ever worshipped or abused to Idolatry eyther are they yet Neyther if they had been is it absolutly necessary to destroy the substance of them etc but only to take away the abuse and to restore the right use The reasons are sheewed chap 11 De adiap horis Are you sure their is never a Surplice now in England Reply that was abused to Idolatry publikely in Queene Maryes time or secretly sithens that tyme If it be true of surplices are you sure it is true of all Coapes Nay rather I scarse thinke that there is not any Coape now that was not in the time of Popery Besides haue you forgotten the distinction of idem specie and idem numero Ahas sent not the same Alter to Ierusalem that was at Damascus 2 Kings 16 10 but onely commanded the like thereof to be made By this reason also we may erect new images in Churches as some all ready are in some places and say that these images were never worshipped or abused Exceter Here therfore behold agaiÌ„e your sophistry Sophistry Touchyng the substance of things abused to Idolatry we urge not the destroying thereof neyther doe we deny the restoring of them to any good civill or naturall use from which they were first taken and imployed to Idolatry But we deny that we ought to haue any such honorable use as to haue any place in the service of God Deut 12.31 who expresly forbiddeth to be so worshipped I understand this of such thinges as God hath not commanded or wherof there is no necessary use Such are the ornaments in question The objections against this are plentifully answered in other books The 11. chapiter of your booke wherunto you referre us is not worth the reading of a learned man It conteyneth objections of your owne making not of ours Which of us was ever so mad as to say que ad Dei gloriam fiunt iis colitur Deus For are not the dutyes of the second table performed for the glory of God Is God worshipped by them This is to confound both the tables Who ever also saide Quicquid fit ex fide et Deo placet whatsoever is done of faith and pleaseth God is the worship of God So our eating drinking and whatsoever else we doe shall be the worship of God I wonder you blushed not to impute such thinges unto us and to cast your owne shame upon us The third objection indeede in that chapter touching the proposition is in part yet not wholly ours But your answer thereunto maketh more for us then against us as a child that hath well learned the principles of religion might easily shew But I for beare answer of them and leaue them to other to shew your childish weaknes there in and in that whole booke By the sight wherof I praye God you may see what it is to write against the truth In other things you haue written well and we thanke God for your paynes but in these causes your arguments are like fagots of thornes full of prickes without substance bound with bonds of strawe which by the fire of Gods truth are quickly burnt up though for a time they fill agreat roome and seeme to make a great blaze yea they are like to ignis fatuus which terrifieth simple men as if it were a spirit but is in truth but a litle fire of certeyne slymie exhalations at the most they are but like a Comet or blazing starr which though it seeme to ignorant men to be aboue in the starrie heavens with the fixed starres yet for all that is but in the highest region of the ayre and at the last is dissolved into winds Thus much for reply to the 17. Argument yea to all For to the conclusion of all which the Notary answerer unaptly call a distinct Argument their is nothing answered requyring any further reply then hath been already made This therefore shall suffice for defence of the former Arguments In the answer whereof though perhaps there be the more scoffes reproches cavils bitter speeches and uncharitable collections to haue provoked us unto the like that thereby some further advantage might haue been ministred unto them against our cause and against our selues yet as the author of the argumeÌ„ts used not any such word to provoke them so I thought good to walke in the like stepes of modestie that the defence of the Arguments
might be the more suitable to the Arguments thēselues that the author of them might haue no cause justly to blame me for disgracing his work and the cause it selfe by a contrary course and that the mindes of the Prelats may rather be molified towards vs. then any thing more exasperated against us If it fall out otherwise and that our mildnes doe still increase their rigor God I hope shall giue us patience to indure whatsoever he shall suffer them to doe unto us together also with such comfort as all the world shall not be able to take away from us For we are so throughly perswaded from the evidence of Gods truth revealed in his word and sealed up in our hearts by his spirit the cause wherein we stand to be the cause of Christ Iesus that we say with Paule Acts 21.13 we are ready not to be bound onely neither onely to loose our livings but also herein to dye for the name of the Lord Iesus I speake not this seditiously and therfore let no man so wrest my words but I speake with that mind and in that manner that Paule spake the former words to signifie our readines for suffering any thing which the Prelats shall do unto us not for doyng any thing to resist them Some of thē harpe much vpon this string as appereth by wresting of our words in most malicious manner in the former answer against us yea they seeme also to thinke long for some law or other of this land to be wrested against us to make some of us examples unto other by sheading of our bloud but if they should so fare prevaile which I hope they shall never doe in the dayes of gracious and mercifull King Iames nor in the dayes of any of his most Royall bloud let them remember the words of Ieremy in the like case Ieremy 26 14 15 to the Priests and Prophets that sought his bloud As for me be hold I am in your hands doe with me as you thinke good and right But know you for certeyne that if ye put me to death ye shall surely bring innocent bloud upon your selues and upon this Citie and upon the inhabitants thereof etc. For of a truth the Lord hath sent me to speake all these wordes unto you Yea let them not onely remember those words but so also take admonition by them that in the presence of God they be not guiltie of high treason against our most Christian Soveraigne against his Royall issue and against the whole land by provoking the Lord to inflict such judgments upon all as the wordes before mentioned doe insinuat We are in their handes 2 Chron 24 22 ready without any resistance meekely to suffer any thing but he that judgeth righteous iudgment though he sit in the heavens will looke upon it and one day as Zechariah in the like case sayd will requyre it as indeed then he did Not withstanding I am so farre from Prophecying or wishyng any judgment to the whole land though I cannot but feare it that I doe and will earnestly pray Ioel 2.17 Gen 18 26 spare this thy people ô Lord and giue not this part of thyne heritage into reproch etc. Yea I doe the more hope of mercy in sparyng us yet a while longer because of the great multitude of the righteous in the land and because perticularly of many that haue been and yet are under Christ dressers of this the Lords vineyard that day and night whiles many Prelats eate and drinke and take their ease and pleasure doe pray the Lord of this his vineyard to let it yet alone Luk. 13 8 and to spare it a while longer But for all this whosoever shall procure the bloud of the meanest of us to be shead under whatsoever pretence let them know that such bloud shall cry louder in the eares of the Lord of Hosts for vengeance upon the procurers therof then ever we haue cryed in the eares either of our most gracious Soveraigne whom God long preserue in person and in vprightnes of heart or of the High Court of Parliament for Iustice If their shall be iudgment merciles to him that sheweth no mercy what shall the portion be of the cruell bloud thirsty Iames 2 13 Pro 21 13 Verely though they cry yet the Lord shall not heare them As also they that put the Martyrs to death missed of their purpose so shall all bloud thirsty and ambitious Papall Prelats Epist 243. Sanguis martirum semen Ecclesie The bloud of Martyrs is the seed of the Church and foecundi saith Calvin sunt martyrum cineres The very ashes of Martyrs are fruitfull The truth may be oppressed but it cannot be suppressed yea the more it is oppressed the more it shall bud forth spring If one of us in this cause should be put to death though perhaps under colour of some other offence by perverting of words wresting of law or otherwise yet for that on the Lord can rayse up ten yea there is nothing that hath made or doth make the cause of Papall Prelats more odious and the reformation desired more gracious and honorable even with some that before the consideration of that which I now say were of another minde then the unjust and especially the unmercifull proceedings of such Papall Prelats against the seekers of reformation Philip 1 28 Therfore in this case as the Apostle exhorteth the Philippians we doe in nothing feare our adversaries because as to be our adversaryes in such respects is to them a token of perdition if they repent not so also to be hated and persecuted by the Prelats is a like token to us of salvation and that of God But beyng so confident why doe we conceale our names to our writings Because as Christ Iesus notwithstanding all his heavenly fortitude without any defect did for all that oft tymes hide and with drawe himselfe from the furie and rage of the Priests Scribes and Pharises till his appoynted time was come so doe we by this meanes hyde our selues from the violence of some of our Prelats To your conclusion I will answer litle because it hath litle that hath not been answered before Wheras you say that wordes are to be numbred to so great states I answer that words are not onely to be numbred but also for the quality truth modesty sincerity and equity of them to be weighed and considered which if you had doone your whole labor had ben spared If you did greiue in your soule to heare us complayne of our povertie why doe you by bitter rayling false accusations and most unjust vnreasonable wresting of your antigonists words against all other Ministers of his sorte ad affliction to our affliction doe you not know that by this circumstance David amplyfied his cōplaynts and deprecations against his adversaryes Is this to iudge wisely of the poore Psal 69 and 109.16 Psal 41.1 Whereas you wish us to be a shamed of