all be donne to edefinge not to be ment of domme thinges but thinges that wearred spoken or songe therfore was it necessarie to proue them out of godes worde SubstancialiÌ„e Wher you saye our Minor is not proued although we are men of occupation yet wee vnderstande that a vniuersall minor negatiue can not be well coÌ„firmed Yet our particular minors they ar al redie touched in the Table and herafler as you giue coccasion shal be particularlie proued The examiner The fyrst discorse here is of edifiyng or buyldyng the Churche of Christ which all faythfull Ministers do acknowledge to be theyr bounden duetie and seruice accordyng to the graces of God bestowed vpon them and neuer to hinder and plucke downe awhit wherof much more myght be said then is here rehearsed if it were nedefull to wade further in so worthy a matter Herewithall in textes and expositions you woulde not greatly haue enlarged your booke Ephes 2. if it had not ben to make al gods workemen sauiÌ„g your selues suspected to the world as pluckers downe aÌ„d destroyers of Gods most holy TeÌ„ple Fphes 4. buylded vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes when as through the grace of God workyng in theÌ„ by true and sounde doctrine in this apparell and orders manye earnest labourers of the lordes do trauayle to bryng his people to the full knowledge of Christ houesoeuer you haue entangled and accombred the consciences of your hearers So then to the two fyrst places that be out of the second and fourth Chapter to the Ephesians no more needeth to be spoken but that all the carefull buylders in this Churche of Christ whiche haue other commaunded or receyued these lawfull orders fyrst as they haue before time so do still take paynes to amplifie and beautifie the spouse of Christ with the precious iewels of spirituall wysedome And secondly do vtterly forsake vayne vngodly and vnprofitable inuentioÌ„s of man whiche two thynges you seeme to require by your note in a true preacher and can not denye them yf you be not wylfull to be in very many vsyng this apparell The Aunsvverer You confesse it is the dutie of ministers allwaies to builde and neuar to hinder or pluke downe but hear of oure texte and expositiones you wolde not haue iudged so rashlie yf you had remembred what our Sauioursayth Nolite iudicare Mat. 7. c. Iudge not Wee do not affirme that they are all destroiers and pullers down of the Temple that weare the paparell but wee may well say that all the destrioyers and pullers downe are glad to be couerid in this Apparell And that the Ceremonies and apparell tend not to edification but destruction for that no man by them is directed to Christ and the sinceritie of the Gospell neyther yet prouoked to amendment of lyfe but to Antichrist and the remenbraunce of poperie Caluin sayth that al Ceremonies are corrupte and hurfull except men be directed by them vnto Christ And for these Cerimonies that are vsed in papacie they are seperated from doctrine so that they kepe men in signes lacking all fignifications thus fare Cal. Inst li. 4 cap. 10. sect 15. Secondly whether they refuse all vaine vngodly and vnprofitable inuentions which receue this apparell must be tried by the conclusion of the matter Yet wee are not more to be accused ffor condemning the receuers then you for condemninge vs the refusers agreing with the most excelent reformed Chirchis of Fraunce Germanie and â—cotland and will yow see how yow haue setforwardes godes building in the Cytie of London Did you not in one day vnfurnish and quite dispatch of work men all the placis in the Cytie whereas any greate bildinge was and haue you not heitherto kept backe those workmen ffrom ther worke And haue you furnished these places with such diligent laborers againe and what can this be els but to stay hinder and plucke downe godes building The examiner Vpon this vniuer sall sentenc That Christes Ministers must huilde vp and not pull downe you determine that Vicars Curates and parishe Priestes ought to admit no orders whiche may not manifestly appeare vnto them that they do edifie Geuing eueri man in his paryshe an absolute authoritie muche more then they had before the prophecie was fulfilled Kynges shal be thy Nursefathers Esa 4â— and Queenes thy Nurses The Aunsvuerer Wee suppose that euerie pastor ought to be so far lernid that he may iudg of such matters or else wee thinke him not worthie to be a minister and what inconueniens commith of this affirmation wee do not yet see forasmuch as S. Paull willith euerie man to be certenlye perswaded in his own mynd whether it be lawfull or no though the matter be neuar so indifferent For he that doubtith is condemnid because he wantith faith Esa 49. and that wich is not of faith is syâ—ne Werfore when the scripture biddith all things to be done to edesie A good pastor should admit nothing but that wich he is perswaded will edifiâ— 1. Sam. 14. And of this iudgement is that reuerend â—father Peter Martir in plaine Words who putting a difference betwen Ecclesticall and polliticall lawes saith Spectanda est in in Ecclesiasticis â–ª Eutaxia in politicis autem parendum est quamuis tu eam euxtaxiam non videas In ecclesiasticall lawes good order must be considered but in polliticall lawes thow must obey allthough thow see not that good order But where yow name vicars curats aÌ„d parrish prests wherof wee made no mention in our declaration leuing out Archibishopes Bishopes Deanes Archedecons Prebendaries Cannons and Parsons wee marnell what yow meane vnles yow thinke none of them so mad as to ioyne with vs in this cause Isa 49. Yet shall she porest mynisters euen euerie vicar curat and parrish priest as yow call them haue as great authoritie in the ministration of the word and Sacraments in his Church as any of these prelates whom yow spare to name Wee confesse that kings and Quees shold be Nurcies of the Church but not Lordes of it not of our consciens wich the wordes immediatelie following in Isaye doth playnlie declare bownig down ther face to the erth they shall worship the and licke the dust of thy fet The authoritie that princis haue ouer the churchis is a seruice to defend it and to seke the profit therof raither then a prerogatiue to burthen it with superfluus and hurtfull Ceremonies at there pleasure The Examiner Yet you fearyng the inconueniences that must nedes folowe so an absurde an opinion remember your selues in the next lynes and saye That if you myght but conceyue an hope that the vse of these thynges myght helpe forwarde the Lordes buyidyng you woulde not refuse them So one tyme all orders not manifestly edifyng must be condempned another tyme yf you may hope that they wyll do well you will admit them This your chaungeable opinion well weyed differeth not much from that straunge saying of
to hym And agayne Aunsvver a foole accordyng to his foolyshnes lest he may seme to himself to be vvise It may novv of good congruence be uerified in the cause vttered in question for order of ministers appareill It is not vnlznovven vvhat argumentes and conclusions vvhat letters and vvrytynges haue ben vsed and tossed from man to man in secrete sort for these tvvo or three yeres to disprouue the libertie of the chyldren of God in the vse of externe thynges to conuel the obedience that true Subiectes shoulde perfourme to the auctoritie of theyr Prince to the lavves of the Realme established to the discredityng and condemnation of such vvhich in a vvhole conscience thynlze it lavvefull for them to vveare and yet charitably beeryng vvith the vvealznes of such vvhose consciences are entangled vvith fearefull scrupulositie tovvarde the same IT is well knowen that the matter was not handled so secretlie these ii or iii. yeres but openly setforth in the pulpit these seuen yeres without any grete contradiction but it may be said this is your houre Wee may loke for great truth in the body of your discourse when your begnnyng is so farced with lyes This cause was not taken in hand to disproue your libertie but rather to prouue that your libertie shold not be made necessity as the lettar of a certaine bishop written to à noble man witnessith And to teach you to use your libertie to profit and edification according to those sayings all things are laufull for me but all things do not edifie Let no man seke his owne profit but an other mans neyther to conuell for so yow terme it the obediens to the Prince and her lawes but to teach cheife obedience to god and his word nor to discredit and condemne them that can away with them for wee allwais iudged of them as S. Paull willith they staÌ„d or fall to their Lord for if wee had condemnid them wee wold neuer haue coÌ„municated with them but to discharg our own consciences and to labor for the synceritie as well in rites as in doctrin As for the charitable bearing wich yow speake of doth litill appere in these sayiÌ„gs subscribe or be depriued wear or preach not This is but small bearing The small vveight of theyr reasons and argumentes so set out theyr cause so harde to defende vvithlearnyng so many graue vvryters of iudgement agaynste them the matter sullye debated by the best learned men of the Realme of late vvith thorder of the counsayle talzen in the tyme of blessed memorie Kyng Edvvarde and fully concluded caused diuers men beyng yet offended vvith suche vnaduised vvrytynges to holde theyr pennes vvithout more confuting or disprouyng the same as vvas easye for them to do partly stayed by the fyrst part of Salomont counsayle Ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne efficiaris ei similis Yea moreouer charitie borne to the aucthours of such vvrytynges moued some men to lzepe pacience and the counsell of S. Paule helde others in silence vvheras he chargeth his scholer Timothe thus Stultas ineruditas questiones respue setens eas parere pugnas porro seruum Domini non oportet pugnare sed placidum esse erga omnes propensum ad docendum tolerantem malos cum mansuètudine erudientem eos qui obsistunt si quando det illis Deus â—oenitentiam ad a gnoscenduÌ„ veritatem resipiscant a diaboli laqueo captiab eo ad ipsius voluntatem Foolyshe and vnlearned questions put from thee remembryng that thei do but gender stryse for the seruaunt of the Lorde must not striue but must be peaceable vnto all men and apt to teache and one that can suffer the euill in melzenes and can infourme them that resist yf that God at any tyme vvyll geue them repentaunce for to knovve the trueth that they may comme to them selues agayne out of the snare of the deuyll vvhch are novve taken of hym at hys vvyll These be wordes of course common to all them that go about to ouertrhow any cause wich because they are brought in without prose wee may stand to the deniall The argumeÌ„ts wear more weightie than yow cold auoid and whan yow haue by Gods word confuted them than yow may more iustlie call them weake The cause so easye to defend with lerning and scripture that yow neuar durst assaile it so many graue writers against yow the matter neuar fully debated by the best lerned in this Realme but of necessitie enioyned them caused yow to staye your pen vntill now their necessarie defeÌ„ce caused yow to write soÌ„thing least yow should be thought to haue nothinge Yf the rule of S. Paull had bene kept this question of popish Ceremonies had not bene thus ernestlie moued nor so sharplie folowd But Paulls place is wroÌ„glie alleged by yow for that he meanith questioÌ„s of genelogyes c. wich pertayne nothing to doctrin nor disceplyne in churchs of Christ The question of rites and ceremonies yow knowe Paull him self and the writers both olde and newe haue diligentlie handled and therfore may not be thought a foolish and vnlerned question To enforce this text at this tyme in the particuler appliyng therof shal be spared yet for hope of their amendement uuho hauer disorderlye behaued them selues To exagerat the matter agaynste them vvith muche alleaging learned mens iudgementes many dead some yet alyue othervvise then to in struct theÌ„ by a fevv reported shal also be spared as it vvould haue ben vvyshed the matter vvhooly myght rather vvith scilence haue ben styll buryed But novv the prouocation of a treatise so solemlye aduouched so confidentlye affirmed of very late so publiquely by print diuulged and dispearsed hath made this vvryter novve to thynlze it hygh tymn tocall to remenbraunce the latter part of Salomons fentence RespoÌ„de stulto iuxta stultitiaÌ„ suaÌ„ ne videatur sibi sapieÌ„s Not yet profossyng by this examination to say halfe so much as myght he spolzen in the comprehension af the cause nor talzyng so much aduauntage agaynst that inconsiderat vvrytyng as it myght deserue to be charged but briefely to put to the aucthours consideration the vuealznes of the reasons the sophistication of the arguments of that discourse unuuorthy of it selfe to saye ihe truetht to be once aunsuuered as beyng so uuritten as euery man but such as be eyther to parcially bent to the cause or for lalze of learnyng can not expende the substaunce of the Vurityng maye perceyue that it muste nedes fall to ruyne decaye of credite of it selfe though no man should bende any force at it houu soeuer in the heate uuich is nouu talzen thought to be nuittyly grauely inuincibly uurytten but uuorthy in deede to be put out in the name of such uuhom it uuould speciali defende A good deuine shold spare at all tymes to inforce textes of scriptures wich he ought rather rightlie to applie according to the meaning of the holie gost As yow deligiht in ynkehorne terms
grauntith in his epistle that these as they are now comaunded in that it is not lawfull to doe otherwise are greuus and burthenus and that therewith Papistes goe obout to mayntay ne a litill spice of thier Masse therfore are they by Musenlus iudgment to be refused As for the other properties in their place they are or shal be shewed to ly in theis things Yf any such new vse of old superstitius garments had bene necessarie or comendable the Earings Baalls vessells and the brasen Serpent might so haue bene conserued and conuertid wich Iacob Iosias and Ezechias destroyed whose godly zeale wee thinke our selues bound to followe raither then your new application The Examiner Nowe are you come to thee hiefe poynt of â—he first argument which is as you say that Christes Church is not edisied by these garmentes Which assertion you go about to per swade two wayes First because the simple Christans are greeued and are redy thereby to fall from Christ These whom you tearme simple Christians are those who as may well appeare perswade themselues to haue deepe knowledge in Gods worde to haue growen to so certayne a perfection that thay can and wyll sodeynlye iudge of all men and of all doctrine and they thynke them selues to be setteled and quieted in greater matters then these They see weyghtyer thynges in the Church yf they see any thyng at all whereat they may be greeued as other good men are and yet must be contented tyll God graunt fitte and orderly meanes to remoue them with charitie to beare lest the vnitie of Christes Church shoulde be rent vpon euery lyght offence and horrible scisme for trifles be brought in The Aunsvuerer The asscrtione is well proued That doth not edifiâ— which doth destroye that which greuith the simple Christians doth destroye therfore it doth not edifie This reason yow graunt but yow will nedes perswade them that it dothe not greue them Because they are perswaded in greter matters So might the vncharitable abusers of there libertie among the Romanes and Corinthians haue aunswered Sainct Paull for they that were greued with meates and drinkes had receyued the faith of CHRIST but all men haue not knowledge though yow will beare them in haÌ„d that they haue for allthough they see and are greued to behold greater matters vnreformed yet that is no cause why these thiÌ„ ges should be with charity borne withall Lib. 3. ca. 19. s 13. Ler ne that of Caluin as our libertie saithe he must be in fesus Christ to charitie so charity must be subiect to the puritie of faith Bucer not oneli in priuat lettres but also in publike comeÌ„taris in Math. 18. agreith to the same Vnde nihil dicunt qui perpetuo iactant maiora esse quae vrgeri oporteat quam reformationem ceremoniarum in Antichristi reliquii patrocinantes ceremoniae enâ—m testes religionis sunt c. wherfore they say nothing that continualli bost that there are greter matters to be vrged then the reformacion of ceremonies herebi defending the relikes of Antichrist for Ceremonies are witnessis of religion c. But by the way wee pray yow remember tw thiÌ„gs first that yow confesse these to be waightie SecoÌ„dlie that among so mani waightier thiÌ„gs you reforme none which causeth vs to be lesse willing to ioync with yow in this The Examiner But the simple in deede Heb. 5 who are yet to be fedde with mylke who haue not through custome theyr wittes exercised are sore greued and that iustlye seeyng you not receyue indifferent and comely orders Of whiche sort thousandes are dryuen backe by suche kynde of disobedience as yours is whyles you wylfully withdrawe your selues from your dueties and charge of Gods beloued children and the deare flocke of Christ wherin if you haue taught your Nouices that shese ordinaunces such other are superfluous idolatrious and superstitious when they are for decencie and order sake by lawfull auchoritie thus left vpon whiche teachyng their offence may arise you ought nowe on gods behalfe otherwayes to infourme them But yf they be taught to â—ake these thynges as Gods worde doth prefuribe then your wearyng shall not be the woundyng of theyr consciences neyther by Gods grace shal you neede to feare the heauy curse of God whereof you write I pray God it be not as at S. Augustines tyme that this troublyng of the weake Epi. 1.8 come not by the contentious obstinacie of some brethren as is before saide The aunsuuerer 11 The simple hauenede to be fede with the pure milke of the gospell not myngled with the poison of Antichrist lest it brede such a disease in them as when thei are olde they shal be scarse albe to shake of Christ blys his his babes frome such milke wich S. Paull ne uar dreamid of Yf Irenae were aliue he would saye as he thought of victor that you make the horrible schisme wich for trifills as yow terme them do thrust your brotherne frome yow who be fore liued and labored in louing consent with yow Yf thowsands be greued whan wee do our duties sincerlie wee wil aunsvvere be fore the iudgement seat of Christ of a good conscience grounded vpon gods vvor de Our sauior Christ biddith vs let them alone vvith thier blind guids For they thay preteÌ„d most greif are papistes aÌ„d no Weake gospellars And conserning offense wich is one of the thechefest causes whi wee refuse this apparel they are most offended that are best pleasid with it for thei are confirmid inther supersticius opinion of these things are boldned by example to do that wherof there consciencis doubtith and is not enstructed by gods word And this is also the sentence of Bucer in the place before alleged Infirmorum rationem ita habebunt vt ni hil temere nihil importune saciant sed cum summa mansuetu dine docebunt infirmos sapere fortius tamen exemplis pro uchere illos dabunt operam neque paucorum qui antichristi ce remoniis aequo adictiores sunt fortasse non ueri fratres morabuntur cecitatem ut plurimos interim infirmes alios offendant quibus nunquam ista cogitatio non in animo uersatur si ista tâ mala essent abolerentur si tam bona opere ea cuncti presertim qui christi uolunt haberi amplecterentur They shall haue such respecte vnto the weake that they do nothiÌ„g rashlie nothiÌ„g out of season but with greate gentillnes they shall teach the weake to waxe strong in vnderstaÌ„ding and yet by examples shall labor to set them forward neyther shal they regard the blindnes of a few that are to much addicte to the Ceremonies of Antichrist which peradueÌ„ture are no trew brethern in the meane while to ofend many other which haue allwais this cogitation in their hart if these thiÌ„gs were so euill they should be abolished if these things wer so good all meÌ„ specialli they that be accoÌ„pted of Christ wold embrace
them in worke But because your fay rest colour is order and decencye may it plese yow also to here the censors of diuerse lerned fathers plainelie declaring that this your apparel is neyther orderlie nor comelie first Peter Martir 1. Sam. 14. hath these wordes handling the comon place of the ecclesiasticall lawes Esse tamen opertere aliqua quae faciant ad ordinem decoriÌ„â— docet Paulus ad Corint hic tamen ordo non est situs in magna pompa in vestibus in cantibus in campanarum organorum strepitu sed quae ad modèstiam grauitatem faciant qui remoueat lasciuiam confusionem barbariem Yet Paulto the CorinthiaÌ„s teachiht that soÌ„tiÌ„hgs must be had which serue for order and coÌ„lynes but yet that order is not placid in great poÌ„pe in garmeÌ„ts in singing in the no is of Bells Organes but such as makit to modestie and grauity which remouith wantonnes confusion and barbarusnes Caluin in the 4. boke Cap. 10. 29. diuision of his Inst writith thus Similiter ordinem non constituemus in nugatoriis itâ—is pompis quae nihil habent prater auandiem splendorem sed in ea compositione quaeomnem confusionem barbariem contumaciaÌ„ turbas omnes disciâ—iam tollat Likewise wee will not place order in these triflinge pompes wich haue nothing but a vanishing shewe but in the coÌ„position wich takith away all confusion barbarusnes stubburnes all troble and dissention Thus much for order now for comlynes Docter Rydlie callith them fowlish and to fond for a vice in a playe His felowe docter Tayler callith theÌ„ apish toyes Docter Poynet late bishop of winchest in his admonition to England liknith them to a porters weede of bill in sgate Lib 4 cap 18 〈…〉 29 Calum in his institutions Decorum ergo non uâ—cabimus in quo nihil praeter inane oblectamentum inerit quale exemplum uidemus in illo theatrico apparatu quo utuntur papistae in sacris ubi nihil quam inutilis elegantiae larua luxus sine fructu apparet Therfore wee shall not saye that comlines is wherin shal be nothiÌ„g but vain delectacioÌ„ne such as wee see in the playerlye like apparell which the papistes vse in their seruice where apperith nothing else but an vnprofitable visar of gaines And excesse with out fruit Peter Martyr vpon this texte Omnia ordine c. sed recte intelligenda est ea particula Decenter ne hoc decorum situm putemus in scricis uestimentis aureis argenteis vasis gemmatisque poculis nolarumstrepitu luminarium fulgore haec qui iactitant vt decentia in paralogismum incidunt quem Aristateles secundum quid ad simpliciter vocat decentia haec esse fatemur sed oculis corporis sen sui carnis muÌ„di iudicio que not poti ' abnegare debemus quaÌ„ sequi decorum quod in his requiritur constat mortificatione sanctitate modestia contemptu mundi potissimum edificatione But this worde decently muste be ryghtlie vnderstanded leste wee shoulde thinke that this comlines is placed in silke garmeÌ„tes godlen aÌ„d siluar vesseles cuppes sett wyth stones noyes of Bells and bryghtnes of Candelles These that bragg of these thinges as decent fall into A paralogisme which Arist calleth froÌ„ that which is after a sort to that which is simplie wee graunt that these thinges are decent but to the eies of the bodye to the sens of the flesh and iudgment of the worlde which wee ought raither to denie than to followe the comlines that is in these wordes required staÌ„dith in mortification hollines modestie contempt of the world and moste cheslie in aedification Petir Martir also vpon the 1. of the Iudges fol. 33. speking of popish apparell saith procedit sacrificulus ornatus prodigiosis uestibus The prest comith forth deked with monstrous apparell aÌ„d in the same place and leaffe Interponuntur etiam quidam imo permulti ritus peregrinisigna ridicula gestus quodammodo flulti uestes inusitatae Ther are added also Certayne yea many strang Ceremonies sygnes to be laughed at certayne gestures in a maner foolish and disguised garments Yf therfore fooles bables apish toyes porters wedes disguised garmentes playerlike apparell moÌ„strous apparell be indifferent orderly and comlie or els if in Church matters wee must seke to our bodilie eyes the sensis of the flesh and the iudgmeÌ„t of the world then may you goe forward with your conclusion but if not our disobeydiens as it pleaseth yow to terme yt shall not be the ouerthrowe of thousandes but the confirmacion and strenghning of multitudes in godes trueth As for enforming the people otherwise then wee haue taught them vnles yow be albe to shew vs that wee haue informed them with vntruthes your request cannot be eselye ybtained nor counsaell redylie followed to your prayer we say nothing but Amen sobeit The examiner Secondly You vvoulde haue vs thynke that the receyuyng of these orders doth not edisie because as you imagine the obstinate papiste shal be confirmed in his opinion This thyng is easyer and oftener saide of you then proued as yet For truelly this may be a meanes rather to wynne the aduersaries from theyr errours when they see vs without superstition or any necessitie turne those thinges to good vses which they fowly abused and heare vs condemne in open preachyng that which they set so much by And vppon this cause it seemeth the Apostles vsed long after Christes ascention the Ceremonies of Moises 1. Cor. 9. and that in the Temple to wynne to Christ the obstinate Iewes Note this place of â—ed eccl hist lib. 1 cap. 30. and expendle his reasons The histories Ecclesiasticall also haue diuers experiences howe much our auncient fathers increased Christes Churche by such godly pollicie Hence it was that they plucked not downe all the Iewy she Sinagoges and Heathnyshe Temples but turned them to the seruice of God that they altered theyr feast dayes Epi 154 that they chaunged their rites to Godlye purposes And that this myght be done it appeareth by S. Augustine to Publicola saying Cum uero ista uel in honorem ueri dei conuertuntur hoe de illis fit quod de ipsis hominibus cum ex sacrilegis et impiis in ueram religionem mutantur when these thinges be conuerted vnto the honour of the true God it is of them as it is of the parties them selues whan they were before committyng sacrilege and impietie nowe they be conuerted into true religious persons These fathers thought not theÌ„ selues in suche thynges vnder the commaundement which God gaue his people to practise in the land of Canaan therfore durst not with an heroical spirite destroy all that the Heathen had inuented before Dedoctr Christ lib 2 cap. 40. But dyd Vindicare tanquam ab iniustis possessoribus in usunt suum clarme to theyr owne ryght vse as it were from the iniust â—ossessours such like thinges as you talke of â—n this
martyr to be vnderstode which if they were obserued wee shold not long be trobled whith these matters The examiner It is a pitifull case to see howe you trouble your selues in comparing Christ preachyng the will of his father and the Phariseis teaching their owne traditions as if any man inforceth nowe mans lawe as part of Gods diuine seruice or as if these orders vppon necessitie of saluacion must be receyued â—d Cassul and Gods blessed worde troden vnder foote Yet sainct Augustine is thus bolde touching the obseruation of profitable rites in Christes Churche that he thynketh the contempteus breaker of Ecclesiasticall orders to be corrected as transgressours of Gods lawes The Aunsuuerer It is a pittefull case to see yow so stoutlie maintaine precepts of meÌ„ against the word of god as though all precepts and tradicions vnlesse they be inforced as a part of gods dyuine seruice or vpon necessitie of saluacion are to be receyued What can the Papist say more in defense of mens traditions The Pharisies as is touched before made not much more of their tradicions then the tradicions of their elders though they were as yow are more zealus for them then for gods lawe And as for S. Augustin his rule first proue these to be profitable and then vse then spare not The examiner The Apostles you say preached not the dreames of their owne heades Ast. 15 and yet for all that they made orders for the Churche whiche continued their times and season whereof we reade not their particuler commission 1. Cor. â—â— 14 True it is as you report that S. Paule willed not men to followe his deuises neither preached he him selfe at any tyme. What then Did he not appoint temporall rites in the Churche which he had not VerbatiÌ„ expressely at his masters haÌ„ds and whiche nowe ceasse and are not in vse Ephi lib 3 Tom 1â— the lyke is said of suche doynges of the other Apostoles whose constitutions were altered after their death The Aunsuuerer You shall neuer be able to proue the Apostoles made any orders or constitutions but they were agreable to the generall rules of Scripture before often rehersed The Examiner You conclude thus because these thinges haue no commaundement nor grounde in Gods worde therefore you refuse them Fyrst special commaundement needeth not in this part of Ecclesiasticall discipline The edification order decencie authoritie of supreme magistrates haue grouÌ„de sufficieÌ„t in the newe Testament and olde Last of all you should haue proued that they had no grounde in Scriptures But that thing youe neuer once touched but rannea rouyng vpon the Maior to bleare the simple Christians eyes as if you had sayd much of the matter when you neuer come towarde it The Aunsvverer It is trew all edisication order and decencie and authoritie of magistrates haue groundes in the Scripture but your apparrell hath not anie aedification deceÌ„cie or order nor lawfull authoritie for wee haue no power but to edifie Thefore it hath no grownd in the Scripture and all this hath bene spoken of before The Examiner Passyng from this fourth reason you frame an obiection vnto your selues as it liketh your selues and aunswere vnto it as you liste Your obiection is That the Prince commaunding a thing indifferent and profitable for the of the Churche may be added must be obayed whereupon you say it must folowe you disobeyng therein must both your selues offende and be a stumblyng blocke for others In aunswrere herevnto howe sclenderly you excuse yore selues aÌ„d auoide blame howe daungerously you passe ouer other matters it had not ben greatly amisse to haue quietly left but that this place as well as others would haue something spoken of it The authoritie you affirme of a Prince in these thinges indifferent is to commaunde their good vse and forbyd the contrary Vpon which your resolution a man may reason with you thus The good vse of indifferent thinges is gods commaundemeÌ„t whiche a Prince must execute But this may be a good vse of these orders now taken as the contrary is not proued by you so consequently the magistrate may call vpon the execution of the same Touching the Minor this much we haue of your graunt that a tyme may be when these thinges in Christes Churche may haue their good vse But whether that tyme be nowe or nay there are preiudices against you of the like tyme heretofore of the wholle parliament of the Clergie of the most part of protestants papistes The aunsuuerer The aunswere to the obiection is better than you can take awaye for all your glorious wordes remembring the former protestation that wee neuer graunted these things to be indifferent in their vse then admitting they were neuer so idiffereÌ„t yet aedificatioÌ„ must be sought in them ChristiaÌ„ liberty must not be infringed for theÌ„ c. This is oure aunswere to the obyectioÌ„ But your fine reason maye not be omitted The good vse of indifferent things is gods coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t Which the Prince must execute but this may be a god vse of these orders now taken therfore the magistrat may call vpon the execution of them First you craue no lesse then two principalls to helpe your weake cause th one that these thiÌ„gs are indifferent the other that there may be a good vse of them Your Minor semith to bring a fallaci whith yt there maye be a good vse of things ergo there is a good vse And this is called a posse ad esse from that which may be to that which is But yow saye wee graunt your Minor that there may be a tyme whan these things in Christes church maye haue ther good vse If this had bene grauÌ„ted yow yet yow rune into a nother fallacye by abusing and stretching the graunt à dicto simpliciter ad secundum quid These orders may be vsed of some whose conscieÌ„ces are not entangled ergo of all contrarie to their iudgement and science or these orders may be vsed at some tyme and for a tyme ergo at all times and al wayes you are not ignorant that the circunstances of persones and times varie the case But yow saye there are preiudicis against vs of what of the lyke time before Kynge Eduardes tyme is not lyke for the gospel hath bene longar preached of the whole perliament yow know what the Papistes auÌ„swer to this of the learned and godly They wish they re abolishing with vs. of the moste part of ProtestaÌ„tes and Papistes we are ashamed to heare a Protestant alleadge such popish praeiudices prescription of time of councell of clergie of multitude of Protestantes and Papistes The examiner As for that power whiche you expounde God hath geuen to Princes whether it containe all their aucthoritie and iurisdiction as you rehearse it it shall not be narrowly scanned at this time Neither thankes be geuen to God doth the Prince of pleasure but for furthercommoditie of her subiectes require this subiection of yours which howe lawfully you