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B13698 A dialogue or conference betweene Irenæus and Antimachus, about the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England: by Samuel Gardiner, Doctor of Diuinitie Gardiner, Samuel, b. 1563 or 4. 1605 (1605) STC 11575; ESTC S102819 49,951 71

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But the Apostles wisedom thought it behoofefull that both by sayings and signes they should be lessoned in their duties Antimachus Is there no other vse of the garmentes but this Irenaeus Pithagor as giueth me this vse beside that the linnen garment putteth me mind of my first estate before sin came into the world that I should labour what I might to recouer that againe as the wollen weed doth set before mine eyes the miseries of this present life of sin of death the wages of sin due vnto vs all by the fall of Adam For you cannot haue a garment of wollen without the death or iniury offered to the beasts that giue them for which cause as Pythagor as sayth wollen was an abhomination in a garment but line and flax whereof the linnen garment is made because it groweth out of the earth without wrong done to the life of that is had Antimachus Can you yet make more meaning hereof Irenaeus 3. Further the linnen garment is the marke of my high calling Mal. 3.1 of the dignity of my place and person For the ministers are called the Angels and messengers of the Lorde of hoasts and Angels almost alwayes appeared to men cloathed in white garments Why should we therfore come with such shredding kniues to pare the church of her lawfull liberty in the garments that it vseth and enioyneth placing no religion therin and being so spare of ceremonies as it is Ierome in his second booke against Iouinian inhibiteth this white attire to Monkes because it was so triumphant and stately as it was euer so in account among the very heathens Wherfore their magistrates were called Candidati because they came into the senate of Rome in white robes Afterward there were those that were thus cloathed that were called Candidati Caesaris who were Caesars Secretaries and read the Emperors letters openly in the Counsell house In those times none might weare such a garment but great men such as were called albae gallinae filij men of great fortunes and excelling in authority Now then because we haue obteined so high a name as to be the Lords Angels and Embassadors let vs be thus apparelled like men of our degree Achab and Iehosophat went in royall robes And religious Queen Ester was apparrelled according to her estate 2. Ring 22. 2. Chr. 18. Esth 2 Esth 8. Dan. 5. Act. 12. And her good vncle Mordechai was arrayed like an honourable man So was Daniel when he was aduanced suite accordingly So was Herod A long gowne is fitting a counsellor a short vesture is for a day labourer or vulgar lay person and the white ornament hath best correspondency with the ministers office of such dignity and preheminency Antimachus But in my mind the eyes of the people that are wholy fixed vpon such objects draw away their minds from better thoughts For as children delight more in the pictures that are in their bookes then in their lessons so the people to feed their fancies do more regard such apparell then the preaching of him that weareth it Irenaeus It will not be so if the outward ornaments of the church be but such as commonly haue bin vsed especially if they be plaine as the surplesse rotchet and the habite of our ministers and Bishop is For the vse and plainnesse of them preuent and take away al manner of admiration I would also think it more likely that the people whilest in wonder they behould such things would sall into further and deeper meditations of diuine matters Antimachus How happeneth it seeing there is such multiplicity of good vse in these garments that many other reformed churches entertain them not Irenaeus Non est eadem ratio vrbis orbis Lawes may differ according to the nature and condition of the place For other manners agree with other men other meats delight other stomacks other ayer is more fit for other natures and so may other lawes be for other countries But it is needefull that one state should be vnder one discipline lib. 10. It is Curtius his saying Eiusdem iuris esse debent qui sub eodem rege victurisunt They ought to be vnder one law that are vnder one Prince For diuision in lawes maketh a diuision and partition in the Kingdom For as a painter though he be neuer so cunning a workman and shaddoweth his worke with neuer such liuely and orient colours to make two boords seem one yet if those boords be not better glued together they will be seen to be two so that the church or common wealth may be one the people must be coadunated or coanimated in one or else a rupture in the frame of gouernment Delegib lib. 6. will very soone appeare It is equality that conioyneth friendship and is the mother of friendship as Plato sayth And inequality as Aristotle saith is the foundation and ground of suspition Polit. lib. 5 cap. 1. 2. Now there is no equality in this that some should be square and others round some white some black But hereof we will intreat more afterward Antimachus But might we not haue an absolute discipline and gouernement for the Church though there were no cannons for apparell but euery one were left to his owne choyce therin Irenaeus Though there were no Prouiso in this case yet reason should perswade vs that we should as in other things be vniforme in apparell Gratian doth aduise vs to suite our selues in our habite to those among whome we do conuerse plainly saying that he that doth otherwise is eyther superstitious or humorous The glossary propoundeth vs this rule to obserue that in the forme of our apparell we would apply our selues to the custome of the place wherin we liue Aug. de doctr Christiana lib. 3. To him consent Panoruntanus Benedictus Caprea Baldus Thomas Ierom who commendeth Nepotian for obseruing this rule And it is Augustines direction in his volume of Christian learning that we diuide not our selues in these transitory things frō the vnity of the church and from the vse of the times and places where we liue And Ambrose holdeth it very decent and becomming our duty to accommodate our selues to the customs of the countries where we conuerse if we would not be offensiue to any or haue any offensiue to vs. In old time at Rome and afterward at Constantinople there were exercises and games of running kept which continued to the time of Phocas the Emperour where the actors and cursitors diuided themselues by their colours in their suites of apparel some in green some in a sadder white Hereupon there grew partaking among the people and choosing of sides and therwithall such enuy emulations affections as after they had done their sports they began to be in earnest and each part to fight vnder his colours that it cost a deale of bloud in Aegypt Syria Greece Ochosias asked his Legats whō he had sent to the god of Archaron for oracle 2. King 1. of what forme and
made thee a moderator ouer vs who arte thou that iudgest an other mans seruant Iames 4. saith the Apostle Iames There is but one Lawe-giuer who is able to saue and destroy Who arte thou that iudgest and others seruant saieth Saint Paul We shall all stand before the Tribunall seate of Christ Rom. 14. saieth the same Apostle from whence hee inferreth this sentence of exhortation as a iust coherence and consequence 2. Cor. 10. Iudge not therefore before the time vntill the Lord commeth who shall lighten those things that are done in darkenesse and shall reueale the secrets of the heartes and then shall euerie one haue praise of God Place these Scriptures in one classie and summe them together and they giue thee clusters of notable conclusions Because he is an other out of thy skinne and of a forraine bodie secondly and hath another maister thirdly and is thy brother fourthly and that one Lawe-giuer his maister hath power of life and death and his Lawe must be the Iudge fiftly and the time of Assises and iudgement is not yet come For these causes iudge not another If thou beest a magistrate iudge him by law if a priuate man iudge him in loue and first iudge thy selfe lest thou be iudged If these reasons may haue no rule ouer you but your tongues must needes bee the scourge of the ceremonies and of such as performe them taxing and traducing vs as Papistes or Proctors and Protectors of Popish trash to such detractors and carowsers rather than correctors We answer as Augustine against Petilia●●s to his wrongfull defamation saide against that father in case of hereticall prauitie and maintenaunce of the assertions of the Maniches Now sum Manichaus eligite ●●i credatis ego sum ex area Christi si malus tum palea si bonus fr●●●entum bon●● sum Libr. 3. de Bap. contr Donat. cap. 10. cap. 12. non est autem huius curae ventilabrum lingua Petiliani I am no Manichee choose whome ye will beleeue I am of Christs threshing floore if I be euill giuen then am I chaffe if well affected then am I good againe howsoeuer Petilians tongue must not be the same that must fift mee Yea to such hath this sentence of Scripture application Stand aparte come not neere to me For I am holier than thou Isai 65.5 There haue neuer such bin wanting of whome Seneca speaketh Qui etiam te per ornamenta ferient that shall strike thee by thy vertues Seneca And it is the same wise mans obseruation Vt quisque est contemptissimus ita solutissimae lingua est the more the person is contemptible the more is his tongue soluble There is nothing easier than to reprooue an other and nothing harder than to know himselfe as the Philosopher Thales speakes rightly If wee haue chosen the worst parte in the apprehension of the moderne gouernement that is no dispensation to you to estrange your selues from our Sermons Our good sayings doe appertaine to you our euill dooings belong to vs alone leaue vs that is ours and in the feare of God take you that is yours If we heale not our owne sores as it becommeth vs while we cure your woundes If our salte may season you though it looseth his sauour in our selues If wee while wee are as a piller of fire to lighten your darkenesse are darkenesse our selues If while we frame you an Arke suffer shippewracke our selues If while wee leade you towardes Canaan the promised Land wee our selues die by the way If while we preach to others wee become reprobates our selues If we plant a Vineyard and eate not of the 〈…〉