to speak write what they never writ or said nor is consistent with their Principles J. Ives I shall shew you that this hath been the way of the Quakers Here is a Book of Solomon Eccles. G.W. Read the Title of the Book The Title was read W. Penn I will show you in this matter how unfair and impertinent J. Ives is He suggests as if we were against the way of Dialogue writting and here he brings you an Instance in a Book of S. E. nothing at all to the Purpose in hand for S. E. expresly sayes By way that is in the manner of a Dialogue Besides how doth this clear T. Hicks G.W. Let that Book alone at this time S.E. is not here he will answer for himself he is now remote from this place T. Plant Here is an other Book of a Quaker ' s between a Jesuit and a Quaker Can you prove that a real Dialogue G.K. It is a real Dialogue we can prove it W. Penn Do you rid your hands of Tho. Hicks if you can and if any such Actions can be found among us as his so will we Let us come to the Charge read it It was begun to be read but the Baptists as before raised a Noise in the Meeting that it could not be distinctly heard and so forc'd to give over reading J. Ives I take Notice then that to write Dialogue-wise is allowed on all Hands so it be writ simply and nothing falsly represented But say they T. H. hath used not only the Method but he brings in things not said by us nor sayable by us with consistency with our Principles But we have produced Two Books of their own writing Dialogue-wise wherein they do the same things therefore it seems the Quakers may have Liberty to do so but not others I shall concede with W. Penn and let it be referred to prove and now let us go on to the Matter with all my Heart 1st That T. H. hath Opposed the Christian to the Quaker G. VVhitehead He bringeth in an unequal Comparison as if the Quakers took a Liberty to do what they would not allow others to do and I will make it appear to be Scandalous c. Was interrupted by the Baptists with a Great Noise J. Ives Since the Meeting begun this is the greatest Impertinency I have heard G. Whitehead By the same Way that Thomas Hicks will go about to prove the Quakers No Christians I can prove the Baptists to be No Christians some of them have denyed the Divinity of Christ and Immortality of the Soul and Free Grace of God to all men now because some of them have so done and thence may be proved No Christians at this rate is this fair to charge this upon the whole of the Baptists to prove them no Christians W. Penn I will meet J. Ives T. Plant or any other about these Matters on a fit Occasion will you now proceed in the Matter of T. Hicks for which we are come together G.W. What we exhibit against T.H. you have in writing by it self comprised in several Articles But you endeavour still to wave that and to introduce other things pickt out of our Friends Books whereof we have had no notice that we could search into them for the Truth thereof though we gave you notice of the matter in hand concerning T. H. in Print and otherwise according to your own desire Now instead of maintaining T.H. you go to baffle us off with New Passages we know none that are publickly own'd by us that have writ any thing but what we can stand by yet it is possible there may be some Person that may have been counted a Quaker that may have writ what we cannot own but what is that to the Business in hand as to T. Hicks W. Penn Let us come to the matter I thus prove T.H. or J. Ives as personating T.H. a Forger Hear me T. Plant The first Charge consists of two parts Manner and Matter Form Things People cry Let us hear it T. Ellwood begins to read it Baptists No Charge We will have No Charge read raised a Noise that it could not be heard though the Generality were for it W.P. Thomas Plant and all ye that hear me I charge T. Hicks with Forging things in our Name which are not sayable by our own Principles I desire the Articles may be read and I shall proceed J.I. T. Hicks hath opposed you to Christians we are here ready to prove that he hath therein done well will you hear your selves proved no Christians The People houted at him W.P. Since J. Ives hath told us that he is here to personate T.H. we desire that our Charge may now be read which is as reasonable as if T. H. were personally here and I will prove him as unreasonable a Forger J. Ives You are mistaken I did not say that I would be answerable for every Article of T. Hicks Here the People houted at him W. Penn J. Ives doth not undertake it seems to defend T. H. in all things what if some of the Particulars that we have charg'd T. H. with be such as he will not undertake to discourse must we leap over them and insist only upon what J. Ives will please to discourse of Is this fair Is this to answer our Charge or do us Justice against T. Hicks J. Ives I appeal to the People to do me right whether I did not say so far as the Articles were a common Cause so far I would appear for him The People were silent W.P. Is your common Case Forgery c if it be we will proceed if not it answers not our Charge nor the reason of our being here J. Ives So far as I undertake to Discourse T. H. shall be concluded but if any thing be too abstruse we must refer it to another Meeting we stand here to justifie T. H. in that he saith you are no Christians we say you are none and we will prove it W. Penn I hope thou dost understand so well the Way and Method of Controversie that when a Man doth exhibit a Charge the Party is to deny or confess now we say that T. H. his Dialogue is a Fiction he that writes a Dialogue and writes a Fiction is a Forger T.H. hath so done I offer to prove it and that we met about J. Ives That which Mr Penn hath said is this which is very reasonable that a Charge exhibited should be owned or denied we do say as to the Matter of T. H's VVritings we do own it and are here to defend it If I say a Man is a dishonest Man I am bound to prove wherein and if I say you are no Christians I will prove it so G. Keith Jer. Ives faith we are agreed upon the first part of the Charge I deny it for T.H. saith it is A Dialogue and I say it s No Dialogue but a Fiction so that it being no True Dialogue it is an Abuse to
Defendent if they come as Plantiffs they should oppose they ought to propose for what they accuse him let the grieved Person make out his Grievances and let the Defendent answer for himself this in my Judgment is fair between you J. Ives To the Stranger You have spoken disereetly but there is something necessary for you to have had previous Knowledge of If I abuse you in VVords you come in against me as Plantiff in this Case it is reasonable the Plantiff should make a Declaration of his Grievance and then the Defendent is to make his Defence We are chargd for writing Dialogue-wise A Stranger The Difference between you is this The first thing that the Baptists would be at is to prove the Quakers No Christians W. P. saith If you will let us come to the Charge to prove Thomas Hicks a Forger we will afterwards come to the other and that the first Article agreed to discourse upon at this Meeting is that the Dialogues are Fictitious and he that made them a Forger J. Ives VVe say They are No Christians G. Keith Is a Forger's Testimony to be received I offer to prove Thomas Hicks a Forger 2d Sâ—rang I am neutral and in Conscience I speak what is Equal They are willing as Plantiffs to prove Thomas Hicks a Forger and say It is the first Article agreed upon to discourse in this Meeting Let them go on to prove it in their own Way and you need not trouble your selves about proving any other Way If I am the Plantiff you are to answer my Accusation so let us see what it is they will prove Tho. Hicks a Forger in before you bring them to New Matter J. Ives Forgery is not the first Article W. Penn It is the first Article hear it read Peoples Importunity was great to have it read Baptists No No No No. J. Ives Do ye think a Man hath Lungs to answer you all W. Penn It is not the first time thou hast run away from me and said My Lungs are not made of Whetleather Strang. ' This is not to the present Matter hear the Articles of the Charge read ' that we may understand them ' Bapt. No No No No. J. Crook I declare I desire not any thing more then to come to that Matter whether or no we are Christians and in order to that whosoever is the Man personating T. Hicks to prove us no Christians we are ready to answer in its place But we say that T. H. is illegalis homo a Forger and his Testimony is not to be believed and therefore non rectus in curia The People seem'd herewith greatly satisfied T. Plant I see that J. Crook is mistaken in the Matter T. Hicks hath all manner of Liberty to go on with his Charge opposing the Christian to the Quaker You appealed to the Baptists herein they called Thomas Hicks to Account He confessed the Matter that be did so Oppose the Christian to the Quaker and J. Ives offers here to personate Tho. Hicks and prove it so W. Penn On what Account did you call T. H. into Question Bapt. Vpon the Account of your Appeal W. Penn Where is that Appeal T. Plant In Count. Christian c. W. Penn And is not Forgery the first Article there charged against him which W. P. proved out of his Books Let the Charge be read Bap. No no no no. Stranger You will not let it be cleared whether T. Hicks be a Person guilty of Forgery or not If he be proved so in any one thing that he hath written against the Quakers then whatever he hath written may be suspected to be alike If you will not do this you refuse that which is rational You did last Meeting divert this Matter as now ye do You did promise another Meeting and now ye do the same thing Moreover I did hear that W. P. did charge that Person that writ this Dialogue with Forgery You could not but hear the same thing yet one of you now said that He did not know that T. H. was charged with Forgery J. Ives Here is a Young-man that presumes to conclude I heard what he did when I am Thick of Hearing Russel I am under some Suspition that this Gentleman that spoak may be a Priest or a Romanist at least and have 2 Reasons for it The People shouted at it as Ridiculous Stranger ' I am charged let me be heard Baptists refused to hear him The Auditory was in great Discontent W. P. Here is a Person charg'd which if it were real as I believe it false argues with me but a shallow Head and a feeble Cause Such use to refuge in the like Reflections But this savours of an Envious Mind to insinuate as if we brought in a Jesuite to help us Right us in this matter J. Ives I will do you all the Right I can I desire I may be heard the Strength of my Voice is not like other men I desire I may have Audience I will only speak to that Suggestion as if that Gentleman were a Priest or a Romanist I do say There was such a Suggestion and there was no more in it that he might probably be a Jesuite or a Romanist some Person of that Community either a Preacher or an Hearer However I do say that the man here that did speak these words did it not by any Desire of ours they were his own words Some of you the last Day took Offence because there was a Person spoak that was no Baptist There might be as much Occasion given us that a Person that is no Quaker should speak here I confess it is a Subject that many of your and our Adversaries insist upon frequently that they may render us and expose us unto Danger to cast it upon us to be Jesuits and it was lately cast upon me in my Travail and I answered that Person that I was never out of the Nation However let the Person answer for himself whether he be so or not W. Penn I hope to have a Jesuit and a Presbyter speak in a man's behalf is not of equal Scandal in England Strang. You have here charged me and you will excuse your selves by saying It is but a bare Suggestion I would ask you whether you are altogether Strangers to the Mischief that comes upon such Suggestions but some men may be used to such things After the last Meeting it was reported in the City That the Quakers had sent for a Jesuit out of Holland to help them W. Penn Jeremy Ives acknowledged that he had had the same thing suggested against him hast thou not J. Ives I have so often W. Penn Very well and I will assure thou lookst as like a Jesuit as he doth J. Ives I have but one word to say W. Penn hath spoak modestly And I say There was nothing laid down categorically to assext that he was either a Priest or Romanist but only by way of Suggestion Yet thus much I shall
say I wish there were in the Land such Zeal as to abominate the Name of Jesuit But I am of the Mind that W. P. himself will say That there is too little of that Spirit in the Land But are not you a Catholick Russel I have Two Reasons to offer why I say so The People desired that the Stranger might speak to clear himself Strang. I do not say I am no Catholick but I say I am no Roman-Catholick that is to say I am not of the Church of Rome J. Ives VVhat are ye then Are ye a Hobist Strang. ' I never read his Books Bapt. Do any of you know him Answ I have known him to be a Trader in London this Fourteen Years Strang. ' Capt. Bromel knows me And others knew him to the Satisfaction of the Meeting W. P. Now where is he that is behind with his Two Reasons to give some Ground for his Suggestion There were none produced Stranger I have heard the Discourse hitherto between you I do understand here is a great deal of means used for to evade the Matter intended by the Meeting and let me tell you it will not only be a Means to make me but more Quakers to see the Weakness of your Carriage You have charged them with several Things they charge you with Forgery therein and they meet here to prove that it is so and if you thus do evade the Matter they shall stand innocent in the sight of Honest Men I desire these People call'd Quakers may have Liberty to read their Charge against T. H. they gave you Liberty to charge them shall not they have the same Interrupted by T. Plant who said thus T. Plant Mr. Penn pray let us all sit down and hear this Man preach us a Sermon The People were displeased and hooted at T. P. W. Penn Must he not clear himself J. Ives VVe have spent almost an Hours Time in this Digression W. Penn How can we expect Satifaction from you as to T. H. if you will not give it us for the Slander your Brother hath endeavour'd to insinuate against an unconcerned Person J. Ives As to this Suggestion against this Person you may remember in an other Matter it was by you urged that is should be left as being unimportant to the Case in Hand but now by your insisting upon the Matter relaring to this Gentleman so much besides the Business you manifest your Minds rather to be to prolong the Time and stave it off therefore I say Come will you hear your selves proved No Christians W. Penn It is to the Peoples Edification to come to enquire whether or not T. H. is a Forger in the Matter of his Dialogues and that is the Matter ye ought to go upon if after that you question the Truth of our Christianity we freely offer to meet you upon that Occasion either private or publick Stranger I am concerned Christianity is so much abused by you Baptists that pretend so much to Christianity T. H. hath writ Books against them they charge his Books with Forgery you should go on to hear whether or no it can be proved Baptist VVhat a Coxcomb is that Here the People cry'd out Take notice of that Man 1 Stranger We have been here a great while and I suppose the Auditory cannot make much to their Content out of what hath past among you I offer again that you will determine who is Plantiff and who Defendent who Opponent and who Respondent â—f you cannot come to this it is as good to depart J. Ives VVe are willing here to prove the Quakers to be No Christians The People make a Noise and are discontented T. Plant You call'd upon us at our Meeting to call upon the People for Silence why do not you do the same here and call for Silence W. Penn Do not reflect we have called upon them and urge them to be silent nor do we believe it is our Friends that make the Disturbance T. Plant If we say nothing with Respect to that Gentleman we shall be clamoured about the Town for it W. Penn He is a Friend of yours as well as ours we are not at all acquainted with him T. Plant Sir I do not think you are a Jesuite or Romanist nor do I approve of what was said I would not have said so of any Man except I knew it But this I have to say to that Gentleman If he should turn Quaker upon this I should take him to be a very silly and weak one The People here manifested their great Dislike of T. Plant's making Apology T. Plant I mean if he should turn Quaker upon the Account of any VVeakness of ours it would manifest him weak in Christianity not those that are Quakers Stranger I did not say thus but it might be a Means to make me and others Quakers to see the Weakness of your Carriage that protent so much to Christianity I st Stranger I hope you will come to an End of all Particularities and I desire Mr. Ives and Mr. Plant that some Article may be agreed upon You say The Quakers are no Christians they decline not the Proof of it but they say It is not the first thing to come to but that the first thing is for them to prove T. H. a Forger that is the Charge W. Penn Shall we read the Charge T. Plant No No. W. Penn Shall T. H. read my Charge against T. Hicks Stranger It is most fit that it be read by an indifferent Person T. Plant Very well you shall W. Penn Shall the same be read that was read at Barbican People Yea yea The Stranger begun and was interrupted by J. I. G. Whitehead The Auditory may take notice that though J. Ives have undertaken F. Hick's Cause that he is unprepared for he said he did not read the Books till last night Now ought he not better to have considered the Matter before he had engaged to personate T. H. If they will not pursue the Charge we shall conclude they are afraid We do suppose the Way they go is not the Way they would be dealt with them that is to pick things out of our Books Now if they would prove us no Christians it must be by somewhat that is generally own'd by the Quakers and you know I offer in the same manner to prove Baptists no Christians That is thus Some Baptists have denied the Divinity of Christ Immortality of the Soul the general Love of God to all Men therefore in their Manner I might as well from thence prove the Baptists no Christians as they have done against us I say some Baptists have been of the Opinions aforesaid Now if the whole Baptists will be concluded by those Particulars then they do as they would be done by The Baptists are divided and some may have unadvisedly laid down Arguments against the Divinity of Christ Now if the Baptists will go from Particulars to Generals let them consider if they would be
thus done by then in the like manner I will prove the Baptists are no Christians I. Ives G. Whitehead hath intimated that our Collections from which we infer the Quakers no Christians are gathered out some of their Books writ long ago Now he argueth thus if it be fair dealing to infer from thence the whole Body of Quakers to be no Christians then he may infer of the same Account that the Baptists are no Christians To all this I say First This doth suppose that there are some Quakers that are no Christians 2dly That if this be true that some Quakers have writ what the whole Body doth not own that there is not that Vnity amongst them that they would make the World believe for if some Men of the Quakers Iudgment have put out those things that is not reason to apply to them in general it sheweth that they are not all of one mind or else it is fair to apply to all that which is the Iudgment of one 3dly That they say that the Baptists have some Men that deny the Divinity of Christ and Immortality of the Soul and it were unreasonable thence to conclude against all the Baptists to be no Christians It is well known that when such Opinions have been among the Baptists they have born Testimony against it as I challenge them to shew that they have done against any thing that might be written by any of their Iudgment G. Whitehead Whereas he takes it for granted that I did conclude or did imply some of the Quakers to be no Christians I deny that there is any such thing by me intended for it appears that I only mentioned those things to this end to shew that the Baptists would not be so dealt by as they have dealt with us I did only suppose it for I do say I know not of any known Quaker that is own'd as a publick Person amongst us that hath laid down what we cannot stand by therefore I was far from that Conclusion which he maketh But saith he the Baptists have protested against any such thing amongst them I ask Have the Baptists in general protested against them that deny Vniversal Grace the Immortality of the Soul the Divinity of Christ Now if I find that there are some of the Books that we never knew any general protest against the parallel holds equal if they say there may be Books that they have not well perused they should have allowed the same Charity W. Penn Let us come to the Matter I offer this to Ieremiah Ives that I will stand to all that T. H. hath instanced out of our Books and prove him a Forger concerning them Here hath been much Discourse beside the End of our Meeting and this I say is the Matter of our Meeting to prove T. H. guilty of Forgery and if thou I. I. does personate T. H. let me go on and I will prove thee a Forger read the Charge The People with one voice cry read the Charge T. P. R. T. We will have no Charge read W. Penn Let T. Plant himself read the Charge The Baptists renew their Noise W. Penn My friendly Auditors the Matter is whether we are Christians or not T. H. saith no we are not and he will prove it out of our Books I charge him with Forgery therein and am ready to prove it ere I go out of this Place Is not this fair The People generally cry out This is fair this is fair W. Penn If you do not intend to proceed upon the Charge as it is here but T. H. must do it let him come where we shall agree to meet and let our Charge be read and indifferent Persons hear what we have to say and so let it be Published to the World T. Plant The Quakers are offended that T. H. hath so writ we begun upon the first Article of the Charge at Barbican we come hither this day upon the defence of that Article Hicks opposing the Christian to the Quaker and therefore because the Doctrines you hold are inconsistent with Christian Religion we come to prove you no Christians but as to the particular Charge T. H. himself must be concerned in it therefore there must be such a Meeting for if he should speak as much as we do here he might be quite spent or kâ—ll'd so forasmuch as you do not consent to the Discourse as offered to prove a Quaker no Christian we will appoint such a Meeting as you say and then let it be Printed to the World W. Penn T. Hicks hath writ such things I grant I come to prove him a Forger therein and that he is no Christian will not this answer to every ones Expectation Understanding He saith Christian so Quaker so Wilt thou prove it T. H. say we Yea saith he I will not bate you one word as he said before so then the Person grieved is the Quaker here is the Grievance that T. H. has Forged things under Our Name we call upon the Baptists to hear us If T. H. had Lungs and Voice enough at Barbican suresly he might have been one of four here but seeing he has declined to appear we do consent to such a Meeting to hear the Debate and when it is heard before an Auditory agreed on being taken by Writers that it go forth to be World J. Ives I would have added as we met by Consent at first so let us meet by Consent again that you may not be incumbrd with Propositions at the next Meeting so will ye refer the Matter to such a Meeting and will ye now closly fall to hearing the Proof that ye are no Christians W. Penn Hath I. Ives Lungs enough now to go upon that and not upon our Charge as it lyeth J. Ives There is something in that which I cannot mannage that which I can mannage is that you are No Christians and that I will mannage against you W. Penn If J. I. will debate all here let us begin if not all here then why any here Is this to proceed methodically nay but it offers Violence to the Order agreed upon J. Ives I am well satisfied to enter into that Debate to prove you No Christians W. P. We are not afraid to meet with thee nor to give an Account of our Faith and Belief in our Lord Iesus Christ That he was born of the Virgin Mary that he preached a Heavenly Doctrine confirmed it by many Miracles was crucified and rose again and ascended into Glory and is God over all blessed forever But if all must not be debated here for which we do arraign them and have exhibited our Charge which they refuse so much as to have read we might very justly refuse to answer to them in this Matter J. Ives W. Penn hath made a Confession of his Faith I will prove that what he hath said is Equivocation and that you are no Christians but what you say is rather to accommodate your Party to the Vulgar I
thou speak'st both of Persons Things Are not W. P. and G. K. Persons Now thou requirest us to wit W.P. and G.K. to give an Evidence of our Faith and Practice to prove our selves to be Christians which is not our present work to do as is already shewed and it is sufficient that we have the Witness in our Selves as the Scripture saith He that believeth hath the Witness in himself And Friends and all People here present I have one thing more of great weight to signifie unto you and that is to tell you that although the Baptists do falsely accuse us as deriving our Pedegree from the Jesuits yet it may appear how near a Kin they are to the Jesuits seeing I can produce a Jesuit who hath used the very same Argument upon the Matter against all the Protestants which the Baptists have this day made use of against us The Jesuit is one Dempster his Argument and the whole prosecution of it together with the Answers thereunto by one called a Protestant Munster J. M. is in Print the Title of the Book is Papismus Lucifugus See people how the whole Protestant Cause lieth at the Stake in the Defence whereof we with all true Protestants are concerned against the Jesuits and Baptists to their own Overthrow who take up the Papists Arguments against themselves J. Ives Give me an Evidence how I may know that you have immediate Revelation for your Faith and Practice from Heaven or from Hell G. Keith That is not my Task at present I do not impose it upon thee so to believe J. Ives Then we have done not a Word more G. Keith offered farther to proceed J. Ives refused W. Penn Then let me take up the Argument with T. Plant or Rob. Taylor They refused G. Keith offered to proceed with J. Ives thus G. Keith He is not a Jew that is one outwardly but he is a Jew that is one inwardly I offer to prove my self by as good Argument that I am a Christian as the best Battists in the World can produce J. I. would not hear but refused to reassume the Argument W. Penn J. Ives T. Plant R. Taylor What mean you by this Evasive Carriage Is this the Entertainment we receive from you after our Condescension to your Importunities first you declined our Charge Next Though you pretend to prove us No Christians you now clamour at us to prove our selves Christians And because we tell you it is not our part at this time since you undertook to prove us None you set your Company a Bawling for a Retreat But that you may see we will follow you into all your SHIFTS I will undertake the Proof of our being CHRISTIANS with any of you upon such Evidences as Christians and Martyrs have been wont to give and if they happen to prove No Evidences in your esteem I will make it appear that you not onely do conclude us but YOUR SELVES with the best of those you esteem Christians gross IMPOSTORS G. Whitehead Observe how far this Debate is gone 1st The Result of J. Ives his proving the Quakers No Christians is turned to a putting it on us to prove our selves Christians and W. Penn a Minister which was not the Question 2. That we must evidence that immediate Revelation is our Rule or else we are no Christians but Impostors but what Evidence that must be whereby we may convince these prejudiced Opposers he has not told us However be it observed that if true Christians must shew some Outward Evidence of their having immediate Revelation or Inspiration it follows that all even Baptists and others who now deny both or say they are ceas'd are No Christians 3. Suppose we do not or are not called to give an outward Evidence or Demonstration of our Christianity to the Conviction of all who require it or impose upon us therein it follows not that we are No Christians much less Impostors for there were some among whom Christ himself could not do many Miracles because of their Unbelief and others that said He cast out Divels by Beelzebub All true Christians were not Workers of Miracles Nor did the Apostles give such Evidence as made all believe and confess they were true Ministers for they were counted Deceivers yet true and so manifest in many Mens Consciences in the Sight of God And though we profess and experience immediate and divine Revelation as the Ground of our Faith and Testimony yet we do not profess or look on our selves as oblieged to make all that require Signs of us especially such as believe confess to us as such are in Enmity Prejudice against us However we have a Proof or Evidence in Mens Consciences c. Here the Baptists were earnestly urged by very many Persons to continue the Discourse W. P. calling upon them Do not run away Do not run away and adding W.P. If so to believe as to have the Witness in a man's self be sufficient to render a Man a Christian as holy Scripture imports then a Man's being a Christian depends not upon a distinguishing External Evidence from what an Impostor may give but the Evidence in Himself otherwise because an Impostor may make as fair a Show as a real Christian that hath the Evidence in Himself it would follow that He is as good Christian though he hath no such Witness in Himself If He be not a Jew that is one Outward but H E a true Gospel Jew that is one Inward then since an Impostor can imitate the Former and not the Latter it follows that A man may be a true Jew that is a true Christian who may not exeede an Impostor as to External Evidence Words or Forms If the Spirit 's of God witnessing with the Spirits of the Ancient Christians that they were Children of God was a sufficient Evidence thereof then since no Impostor has that Evidence and that Evidence is not visible it follows that a man may be a Christian by such a Testimony that doth not alwayes distinguish him by outward Observation to the Eyes of the World from an Impostor If Flesh and Blood could not reveal Christ neither could Flesh and Blood see or reveal that Revelation But will it therefore follow that Revelation was no Evidence in it self and that Peter was No Christian Note Reader Whilst W. Penn was speaking J. Ives T. Plant R. Taylor c. went their Way but the Auditory remained bating it may be of Two Thousand People not One Hundred that went away with them In short If Jer. Ives intended an Evidence that is such as should be convincing to Some-body though this is not absolutely necessary in it self as in the Case of a Man that is born Dumb or one struck Speechless upon a Sick Bed c. yet will it not reach the Terms of J. Ives his Question And if he intend by an Evidence such as should be convincing to every Body then I utterly deny it for by the same Reason the
at our Door and Tho. Plant knows how uncivilly we were treated and used at our Coming in contrary to what was promised us The Cause of our requiring a Publick Meeting when Tho. Plant mentioned Meeting was we ought to be as Publickly Righted as we had been Publickly Wronged to which he answer'd and T. H. with him that it was very Reasonable Now for them to give us Hopes of being as Publickly Righted as Wronged especially in Matters wherein the Reputation of our Profession and Religion as well as our Concernments as men in the Creation are so highly engaged and then so unfair by a Letter to Oppose themselves to a Publick Meeting was not worthily done But if Tho. Hicks will not meet us in Publick we will follow him into any Private Meeting that shall be equally proposed as to Time Place and Persons resolving by the Help of God to adhere to this Controversie wherein we are concerned for the Honour of God and Religion That all the Rubbish of Lyes and Slanders by him and his Abettors cast in the way of the Simple may be removed With this the Auditory amply manifested their Satisfaction J. Ives I offer this that there be such a Meeting agreed upon as is offered in our Proposals not that I would conclude you but you shall have Liberty to consult about it But if this be disallowed I shall now espouse Tho. Hicks 's first Article wherein he saith The Quakers are no Christians I will offer my Reasons to prove you are not and I could wish I were mistaken VV. Penn Tho. Hicks hath been charged by us to be A Forger Perverter Lyar Slanderer of and against our Faith VVritings and Persons This is implyed in that first Article and upon which we called to the Baptists for Justice the Business of this Meeting is to take Cognizance of that Matter and for you to endeavour to give us the Go by as to that black Charge against T.H. and to fall to other Matters of Controversie is not only a Deviation but to offer Violence to T.H. 's own Method of Procede and if T. Hicks will not appear publickly yet if J. I. or any of you will undertake to personate him we will first read the Charge and then go on to make it good for that is the Work of this Meeting and for Men to say they will do this and that But when they come to the Pinch pick here and there what chey please to insist upon this is not I must tell you for the Accused to do 't is my ' tPart to make good my Charge viz. That T. H. is a Forger c. Let the Charge be read Here W. P. and others pressed hard to have the Charge read in the hearing of the Auditory the People signifying a great Desire thereof but J. I. and his Brethren cryed out Read no Charge to which was joyned a loud Noise and Clamour from the Baptists that it could not be heard J. Ives VVhereas W. P. saith That if we will go on they will joyn Issue with us but considering what they lay to T.H. 's Charge in the VVritings of W. P. and G. W. if it can be proved the Truth of it is that T. H. is the Prodigy of the Age for Slanders and unworthy Dealings but let us make a little Tryal W. P. chargeth T. H. with Forgery and one Instance to prove it is taken out of W. P. 's Book called The sandy Foundation shaken concerning the Word Only which Word is certainly there and at this Rate I will make all the VVorld Forgers if they shall be so because I say so W. Penn If I. Ives will begin here with our Charge I will abide by it provided we may go through the whole Charge as publickly but if J. I. will assume a Priviledge to Chuse as he pleaseth how does this answer the Method of the Charge or his own Promise to begin you may observe how they twist to avoid our proving T. H. a Forger c. I say again the Matter of Fact is charged by us if J.I. will personate T.H. I am ready for him and here offer to prove him as such guilty of Forgery and the Dialogus to be a Fiction J. Ives I am deputed and as far as we two shall proceed he shall be concluded as if T. H. were here W.P. does ask if we will go on with the Articles as laid down we have them and will go on in the Name of T.H. and those Friends related to him and as far as we go on he and they shall be concluded by it but as to many other Articles that require Witnesses they must be left to an other Meeting for him to bring forth his own VVitnesses Whereas he saith That our Letter only mentions Matter of Fact not Controversie I say Matter of Fact may be Matter of Controversie If I charge a Man to be an Atheist or a Papist he saith it is a Scandal we come to prove now the Matter of Fact is Matter of Opinion and so becomes Matter of Controversie Now if T. H. saith The Quakers are No Christians he doth own it to be so not only he but I do here say as much which is the first Article in the Dialogue Here J.I. with great Levity in his Countenance thus saith J. Ives I am come here this Day to prove the Quakers to be no Christians which I hope to do by the Strength of God G. W. That is not the first Article in the Charge we charge him with Forgery we say 't is no real Dialogue it is framed by T. H. that is the Charge and this relateth to matter of Fact he saith it is a Dialogue we say it is made by T. H. wherein saith he is faithfully represented and pulished the most considerable Opinions and Principles of the People called Quakers collected out of their own Writings made extant for common Benefit Doth not this imply that this man is concerned to make it appear that his Dialogues are a real Discourse between one or more that are called Quakers and his so called Christian We say it is not real but a false Representation of our Principles and Practices and that they are words we never spake nor writ but are a meer Fiction This is the matter of Fact and here lies the stress he said It is a Dialogue between a Christian and a Quaker we are here to prove it a Forgery W. P. When a Charge is exibited it ought to be confest or denyed If T. Hicks confess himself a Forgers c. then let us proceed to matter of Doctrine if he denyes it I am here to prove him one Here the People cried That is fair and urged to have the Charge read J. Ives The Substance of what they have said is this That the first Accusation is for writing Dialogue wise W. P. No such matter We do not accuse him for writing Dialogue-wise but for writing Fictions calling them A Dialogue making Persons