A Serious DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Church-Man AND A QUAKER LONDON Printed for Brab Aylmer at the Three Pigeons against the Royal Exchange in Cornhil 1699. Some Books lately Writ by G. Keith and Sold by Brab Aylmer at the Three Pigeons in Cornhil AN Exact Narrative of the Proceedings at Turners-Hall the 11th of the Month called June 1696. Together with the Disputes and Speeches there between G. Keith and other Quakers differing from him in some Religious Principles in Quarto Price 12 d. A second Narrative of the Proceedings at Turners-Hall the 29th of the Month called April 1697. Quarto Price 6 d. A third Narrative of the Proceedings c. Quarto Price 12 d. His Explications and Retractations of divers Passages in his former Books c. Quarto Price 1 s 6 d. His Sermon Preach'd on the Publick Day of Thanksgiving April 16th 1696. Price 6 d. A Christian Catechism for the Instruction of Youth and others to whom it may be useful in the Grounds of the Christian Religion c. 80. Price 12 d. bound A short Christian Catechism for the Instruction of Children c. Price 3 d. Stitch'd The Arguments of the Quakers against Baptism and the Supper Examined and Refuted c. in Quarto Price is 6 d. A Serious DIALOGUE Betwixt a Church-Man and a Quaker Church-Man WELL met It is a most scandalous Reflection ye cast on our Church as I find in a late Dialogue writ by one of your Friends called A Sober Dialogue betwixt a Scoteh Presbyterian a London Church-Man and a real Quaker for you to say ye are of the same Faith with us And ye grosly pervert a Passage in our Common Prayer to Prove our Agreement with you as because we pray that God would inspire us with his Holy Spirit c. that therefore the Inspirations we pray for are your Light within that is common to you and all Mankind and which ye say is sufficient to your and all Mens Salvation without any thing else than which nothing can be more contrary to the Doctrine of our Church as appears by the Thirty Nine Articles of our Church her Homilies and whole Liturgy All which hold forth Jesus Christ of Nazareth as he is in Heaven in our Nature to the great object of Faith for Remission of Sin and Eternal Salvation and also to be the great Object of Adoration together with the Father and the Holy Ghost Quaker I confess there is a great Confusion among us about our Faith especially ever since Fr. Bugg T. C. and G. Keith has Printed so many large and full Quotations out of our Friends Books both ancient and late to shew our disagreement with the Doctrine not only of your Church but with the Doctrine of all Christian Societies in the whole VVorld and if they are to be believed with the Doctrine of the Holy Scriptures and none of all our Opposers has done us a greater diskindness to expose us to the World than he whom W. P. calls the Rattle-Snake Man in his Snake in the Grass that has been so generally well liked that it hath had three Impressions and in his Satan disrobed that hath had two Church-man Why should these Books make such Confusion among you You had wont to glory of your Vnity but where Confusion is Vnity surely is not Quaker Before these mischievous Books came forth we all generally agreed as we thought that the Fundamental Principle of Truth was but one and that one was the Light in every Man's Conscience that taught us and all Men that there was a great God Almighty that created all things and that our whole Duty lay within the compass of a few things viz. to love God trust in him pray to him and give him Thanks for our Creation and Preservation and daily Mercies and to live soberly and justly in this World doing as we would be done by and if we practiced these few things that should serve us for Religion and by our Obedience to the Light in our Consciences which taught us these few things we did believe we should be happy after Death and our Souls should enjoy God Eternally though the Body that lyeth down in the Grave being Elementary and Earthly finally perisheth as all other Elementary and Earthly Bodies do But since the publishing of those mischievous Books many of our Friends both in City and Country begin to think that Christ as he is both God and Man without them is a necessary Object of their Faith for Remission of Sin as he dyed and as his Blood was shed and as he rose again and ascended into Heaven in our Nature as they say and as he is now in Heaven Making Intercession for Men. And G. K. first in Pensilvania and since here having with his Meetings at Turners-Hall and his three Narratives made such a heavy Charge against us particularly against G. W. and W. P. wherein he has had Associates Fr. Bugg Th. Crisp and the Author of the Snake that we have no other Religion but Deism This hath occasioned G. W. and W. P. to give forth several new Creeds wherein they have changed both the matter and manner of their Doctrine from what it formerly was making the World believe they hold all the Articles of the Apostles Creed as other Christians do and that they differ not in the main from the Church of England in Doctrine yea scarcely at all setting aside some School-Terms in matter of Doctrine Church-man What is your sense upon the whole matter and particularly as to these new Creeds Quaker First to the whole matter If Christ as without us and as as some call him God-Man beheld forth to be the necessary Object of Faith for Eternal Salvation it quite overturns our whole Fabrick as W. P. I think very properly charged G. K. at Ratcliffe Meeting that he did indeavour to pluck up the Testimony of Truth by the Roots by preaching the necessity of Faith in Christ as without us This sort of Doctrine doth certainly undo all that we have been building as in respect of our Christianity which we thought was all one with Morality but now G. K. and his Associates tell us That Morality at best is but a part of Christianity and if it is not built on the Faith of Christ God-Man without us it is not so much as a part of it but pure Heathenism and Deism But I cannot be of that mind That Christ considered as God-Man without us in the necessary Object of our Faith for Salvation For if this be granted many great and sad Consequences will necessary follow that Concession that will bring great Trouble upon us And as to these new Creeds the Authors of them had done better to have let them alone and not published them for our Friends have oft declared against making Creeds and Confessions of Faith as hurtful and I believe they will cause great breaches amongst us Church-man Why so Quaker Because it is apparent that our chief Leaders that give out
these new Creeds not only contradict their elder Brethren but also their own Books And the sense of many of our Friends is concerning G. W. and W. P. that they are not a-whit changed in their Faith but that they give forth those new Creeds to quiet the Nation and be a blind to them to make all thing the Quakers Toleration is secured to them as much as of any Dissenters for by these Creeds all will be apt to thing we are one in Faith and Doctrine with all the Dissenters who are included in the Act of Toleration and that we own all the Articles of the Church of England excepting some few that are excepted in the Act it self in favour of such Dissenters as are of the same Faith with your Church in all the other Articles Church-man It seems your chief Leaders have some of the Policy of the Jesuits and other Popish Orders that to lye and dissemble is no Sin providing the Peace of the Church can be preserved thereby Quaker I cannotdeny but that some of our chief Leaders and particularly W. P. and G. W. seem to agree with them in such Politicks as in too many other things which is a great grief to many sincere and simple-hearted persons among us Church-man But do ye not in good earnest believe the twelve Articles of the Apostles Creed Quaker As for my self I cannot say that I believe them all for there are divers of them I do not believe and so I am perswaded many hundreds of our Friends do not believe them no more than I do for the very Books of our Friends of best account with us hath taught us to believe the contrary and none have more plainly led us into a contrary Belief than the Books of G. W. and W. P. Church-man Pray what Articles or parts of that Creed do ye and many of your Friends not believe and what Passages in your Friends Books have led you not to believe them Quaker Your Creed that ye commonly call the Apostles Creed hath three distinct Articles in it one concerning your Belief in God the Father a second concerning your Belief in Christ the only begotten Son conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary that suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified dead and buried and a third concerning your Belief in the Holy Ghost By which it is plain to me and I think ye will not deny it that your Creed holds forth a distinction of Father Son and Holy Ghost as three distinct Persons distinguished by certain incommunicable Properties as ye commonly call them otherwise why make ye three Articles concerning them but that ye believe them to be three distinct Persons But both G. W's Books and W. P's have taught us a plaint contrary Belief and what they have taught us we believed that they had given them by Divine Inspiration for G. W. in his Divinity of Christ denyeth any distinction of Persons and in his Truth defending the Quakers denyeth that they are distinguished by incommunicable Properties and W. P. in his Sandy Foundation hath not only argued against three Persons but against three in any sense or respect otherwise than nominally as he somewhere words it as to say three Manifestations or three differing Names But at this rate ye may infer thirty as well as three for it is certain there are thirty various Names given to God in Scripture and many more and there are as many various Manifestations and Operations Again whereas your Creed teacheth you to believe that he who suffered under Pontius Pilate was the Son of God W. P. in his Serious Apology hath taught us a contrary Belief That that outward Person that suffered at Jerusalem so he calleth him that was born of Mary was not properly the Son of God and saith plainly we utterly deny it And G. W. in his Christian Quaker denyeth that Christ did consist of Flesh and Bones he grants he had a Body of Flesh and Bones but denyeth that he did consist of it that is as any part of him as you and I have our Bodies of Flesh and Bones to be parts of us and we consist of them as well as we have our more noble parts to wit our Souls of which we also consist Church-man But if ye believe that he who outwardly suffered Death at Jerusalem was properly the Son of God ye must also not believe that he who was born of Mary was properly the Son of God Quaker No more we do for the Son and the Father are but two Names and but one God and if we should believe that he that was born of Mary was the Son of God we should believe that he was God and so Mary should be the Mother of God which as G. W. hath taught us to believe is plain Popery Church-man If that Child that was born of Mary was not properly the Son of God pray whose Son was he for every Son must have some Father Quaker He was the Son of Mary Church-man Mary was not his Father but his Mother who was his Father Quaker Abraham and David Church-man Abraham and David were his remote Fathers as your Grand-Fathers and great Grand-Fathers were your remote Fathers but who was the immediate Father of Christ if not God And if God was his immediate Father then surely he was properly the Son of God and God was properly his Father Quaker I am not for answering thy ensnaring Questions nor for disputing with thee Church-man Pray what other Articles in our Creed do ye not believe Quaker That Article in your Creed that Christ descended into Hell and that other Article that he arose the third day and afterwards ascended into Heaven if by Hell and Heaven ye mean local places without us Church-man We do indeed by Hell and Heaven mean local places without us Quaker But W. P. hath taught us to believe that a local Heaven or Hell is Mahometan and G. W. hath taught us that to say Christ existeth Bodily without us at God's right hand in a personal existence is Anthropomorphitism and Muggletonism Church-man Do ye believe that Christ was buried Quaker That outward Person that was crucified on the wooden Cross and was buried was not the Christ of God but the Christ of God was in that outward Person that was crucified and buried I pity thy Ignorance to think that any thing that was mortal or could dye could be Christ or that Christ could be buried Our worthy Friend John Whitehead hath taught us that nothing that is mortal can be called Christ and G. W. hath told us that Christ was never seen with carnal Eyes and our Friend W. P. hath proved it against J. Faldo that it was not Christ that did hang on the Cross but the Body in which Christ was Church-man But what say ye to the places of Scripture that expresly say that Christ dyed and was buried as 1 Cor. 15. 3 4. Quaker Our inspired Teachers have taught us that the Scriptures are
as amply as ye but many more have it not This Historical Belief we little regard for as he that hath it is not profited by it to his Salvation so he that hath it not is not hurt nor in danger for want of it Church-man But I have heard some of you call it beneficial though not absolutely necessary Quaker Some of us may call it so and perhaps think it so but I and many other faithful Friends do not think it so for it is but the Letter that kills the Flesh profits nothing it is only the Spirit that quickens Paul renounced his knowledge of Christ after the Flesh Pray what profit can be in that Faith to us that plucks up our ancient Testimony by The Roots as W. P. hath well observed Church-man I have heard some of you call the Scriptures a secondary Rule of Faith and I think I have Read it in some of your Friends Books Quaker Perhaps thou hast but all that was daubing with untempered mortar Thou shalt find no such distinction I warrant thee in any of our most ancient and most approved Friends Books If the Scripture be allowed to be a secondary Rule it teacheth nothing but what the primary Rule the Light within us and in every Man first teacheth but the Light within us and in every Man teacheth us not that Historical Faith and Doctrine thou contendest for as that Christ is God and Man in one Person having two Natures and that as such he is the Object of Faith and Worship Church-man Possibly some of your Friends that hold the Scripture to be a secondary Rule will say the Light in all Men would reveal Christ God-Man without them to be the Object of their Faith and Worship if all Men were duly faithful and obedient to it Quaker If they say or think so they are greatly mistaken How many hundreds of faithful Men have we of our Brethren both Jews and Mahometans and how many Deists have we here in England who are excellent Men for Sobriety and Justice and are obedient to the Light within them and take it for their Rule of Faith and Life and yet if ye ask them if their Light within them doth teach them any thing of a Christ without them they will plainly tell you nay Church-man But I find not that your Christian Brethren the Jews and Mahometans and your Deist Brethren here in England own or confess a Christ in them They seem as ignorant of any knowledge or Faith of a Christ within them as of a Christ without them Quaker Names of things are no wise material What if they call not Christ in them by the outward Names Christ and Jesus It is enough to their Christianity and Salvation that they inwardly feel the Power Life and Virtue of the thing it self they call it the Light within and magnifie it with other high Titles and that is sufficient Church-man Pray what other hurtful Consequences would your owning the necessity of Christ God-Man without you as the great yea and only Object of your Faith considered as your High Priest and only Atonement for the Remission of Sins bring upon you Quaker A third hurtful Consequence if this It would exceedingly lessen the number of our Christian Brethren and abridge our Charity which is now very diffusive and large as the Sand of the Sea Ye talk of your Catholick Church but our Church is more Catholick and Universal than yours The Members of your Church are only such as believe in Jesus of Nazareth and hold all or the greatest part of that ye call the Apostles Creed whereof we have already discoursed at large but the Members of our Church who are one Body with us are all just and sober Men of Jews and Mahometans and remotest Nations that own a great God Almighty and obey the Dictates of the Light within them A fourth very hurtful Consequence is That if the Doctrine of a Christ God-Man without us be received among us as the necessary Object of our Faith for Salvation it will bring in so many other things with it by necessary Consequence that we shall ere long be one with you both in Doctrine and Practice and then we shall be utterly at a loss to justifie our Separation from you yea fifthly we should be constrained to return to the outward Baptism and Supper which we have all along called Beggerly Elements and Worldly Rudiments as some that were among us lately have done and daily to pray for the Pardon of our Sins And lastly this new Scheme of Doctrine if introduced among us will not only deprive our Friends of the Ministry of their Infallibility for which they have so earnestly contended but will break our Meetings of all sorts and wonderfully divide and scatter us by the confusion of the manner of Preaching that will be among us and is begun to be among us already in divers parts to the great Grief of many sincere Souls even as the People by the Confusion of the Languages at Babylon were scattered asunder Church-man But Friend it has of late been divers times queried of your Friends whether Ja. Nayler was a Blasphemer yea or nay and I cannot get a direct Answer Pray what think you Quaker Ohno we cannot admit of a plain Answer for if we say no then the Apostate Christians will be ready to stone us If we say yea then will they prove it upon us that Geo. Fox Edw. Burrough Sol. Eccles and others of our ancient Friends were Balsphemers And thou knowest that would go down ruggedly and would not suit our present Interest Church-man Farewel I think thee for thy free Discourse and Plainness though I greatly pity thy Ignorance Quaker And I far rather pity thine Farewel POSTSCRIPT WHat the Quakers formerly objected against either G. K. his giving them a Publick Challenge to a Dispute or their accepting it being against the Magna Charta and the Fundamental Laws of the Nation is sufficiently made void by the late Practice of some of the Teachers of the Quakers who gave a Challenge to the Clergy in Norfolk or any of their Cloth to Pâ—lick Debate And suppose as they would have it â—â—derstood though very unjustly the Quakers gave not the Challenge yet they cannot deny with any shadow of Reason but that they accepted at least the Challenge given as they say by the Clergy and at the Place and Time appointed came from divers places particularly some of their Teachers came from London to ingage in that Debate Will it not therefore be great Cowardice and conviction of Guilt if G. W. and W. P. or any others concerned will neither give a Challenge to G. K. whom they charge to have wronged them nor accept of his Challenge If they will not give me a Challenge they are once more desired to accept of mine and let us agree about Time and Place Or if they will not agree about them with what colour can they blame me if I shall once more appoint Time and Place to them and prove out of their and their Friends Books owned by them that their new Creeds are utterly repugnant to the Doctrine formerly delivered in their Printed Books and that it is a manifest fallacy that their late Creed given forth at Bristol obtrudes upon the Nation viz. That the Quakers believe all the Articles of the Apostles Creed For I am ready to prove face to face before any Judicatory Ecclesiastical or Civil what is asserted in this Dialogue that they believe not truly and rightly one Article of it according to Scripture and the true universal sense of sound Christians in all Ages G. K. ADVERTISEMENT THE Principles here charged on the chief Leaders among the People called Quakers particularly G. W. and W. P. are clearly proved out of G. K's three Narratives and the late Printed Sheet called An Abstract by way of Index c. and other late Treatises published against them and can be further proved by the open and plain Confessions given frequently by some of that People