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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A41335 Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ... Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652. 1692 (1692) Wing F969; ESTC R31512 41,078 37

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puritan_n and_o give_v his_o question_n according_o great_a expectation_n there_o be_v in_o the_o university_n mr._n rogers_n be_v fellow_n of_o christs-colledge_n come_v up_o opponent_n the_o first_o argument_n he_o use_v be_v so_o strong_a and_o he_o follow_v it_o so_o close_o that_o he_o cramp_v the_o respondent_fw-la down_o fall_v the_o ceremonial_a champion_n the_o under-graduate_n observe_v it_o go_v to_o mr._n rogers_n take_v he_o out_o of_o his_o place_n and_o carry_v he_o out_o of_o the_o school_n upon_o their_o shoulder_n when_o he_o be_v in_o the_o school_n yard_n a_o fellow_n of_o st._n john_n come_v behind_o he_o and_o give_v he_o a_o clap_n on_o the_o back_n as_o he_o be_v on_o their_o shoulder_n with_o these_o word_n rogers_n go_v home_o and_o hang_v thyself_o thou_o will_v never_o die_v with_o more_o honour_n this_o be_v the_o man_n with_o who_o after_o he_o have_v preach_v on_o his_o lecture-day_n i_o walk_v to_o his_o house_n as_o we_o be_v in_o the_o way_n he_o ask_v i_o where_o the_o king_n be_v i_o tell_v he_o he_o look_v upon_o i_o and_o say_v if_o that_o king_n die_v the_o ordinary_a death_n of_o man_n than_o god_n never_o speak_v by_o i_o i_o be_v amaze_v to_o hear_v such_o word_n come_v from_o so_o grave_a and_o eminent_a a_o divine_a o_o sir_n say_v i_o to_o he_o what_o do_v you_o mean_v to_o speak_v such_o word_n concern_v the_o king_n i_o beseech_v you_o give_v i_o your_o reason_n why_o you_o speak_v thus_o he_o fix_v his_o eye_n upon_o i_o and_o give_v i_o only_o this_o answer_n say_v you_o no_o more_o to_o i_o but_o do_v you_o observe_v what_o i_o say_v to_o you_o i_o be_v much_o trouble_v at_o these_o word_n a_o few_o day_n after_o i_o meet_v with_o two_o of_o his_o intimate_a acquaintance_n excellent_a christian_n and_o tell_v they_o i_o be_v much_o trouble_v at_o what_o i_o hear_v mr._n rogers_n speak_v concern_v the_o king_n they_o ask_v i_o what_o he_o say_v this_o note_v this_o i_o tell_v they_o they_o answer_v i_o that_o may_v very_o well_o be_v for_o before_o the_o war_n begin_v while_o the_o kingdom_n be_v in_o peace_n he_o tell_v we_o if_o this_o king_n charles_n and_o this_o prelate_n laud_n die_v the_o ordinary_a death_n of_o man_n than_o god_n never_o speak_v by_o i_o bishop_n laud'_v head_n be_v off_o before_o i_o come_v into_o england_n i_o ask_v they_o if_o he_o speak_v of_o any_o more_o they_o say_v no_o only_o those_o two_o i_o think_v though_o he_o be_v a_o very_a heavenly_a man_n and_o one_o much_o with_o god_n in_o prayer_n yet_o i_o do_v not_o take_v he_o to_o be_v immediate_o inspire_v by_o god_n as_o the_o prophet_n be_v and_o so_o the_o thought_n go_v off_o afterward_o when_o the_o high_a court_n of_o justice_n as_o they_o call_v it_o sit_v upon_o the_o king_n i_o do_v not_o mind_v his_o word_n for_o i_o do_v not_o think_v they_o have_v any_o intention_n to_o take_v away_o the_o king_n life_n when_o i_o understand_v they_o be_v in_o earnest_n i_o go_v to_o church_n on_o the_o fast-day_n 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i_o leave_v to_o wise_a men._n a_o weighty_a question_n discuss_v whether_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o the_o separation_n of_o a_o person_n to_o the_o work_n of_o the_o ministry_n be_v necessary_a before_o i_o come_v to_o the_o question_n give_v i_o leave_v to_o premise_v a_o few_o thing_n first_o though_o gift_n be_v essential_a to_o a_o minister_n they_o must_v be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 1_o tim._n 2.2_o to_o who_o timothy_n must_v commit_v the_o thing_n he_o have_v hear_v etc._n etc._n yet_o gift_n do_v not_o make_v a_o minister_n i_o have_v know_v several_a gentleman_n they_o be_v scholar_n indeed_o who_o as_o to_o gift_n be_v as_o fit_v for_o the_o ministry_n as_o most_o minister_n at_o this_o day_n in_o england_n yet_o these_o worthy_a man_n do_v not_o invade_v the_o office_n of_o the_o ministry_n as_o many_o illiterate_a inferior_a and_o too_o many_o erroneous_a mechanic_n do_v now_o to_o the_o disgrace_n of_o that_o function_n have_v they_o be_v grave_a experience_a christian_n as_o i_o have_v know_v some_o call_v forth_o try_v and_o ordain_v by_o learned_a divine_n to_o place_n suitable_a i_o shall_v not_o have_v oppose_v but_o encourage_v and_o prefer_v before_o many_o who_o be_v call_v scholar_n but_o irreligious_a and_o ignorant_a in_o soul-works_a second_o person_n may_v be_v instrumental_a to_o the_o conversion_n of_o other_o and_o yet_o not_o fit_a for_o the_o ministry_n i_o have_v know_v such_o that_o parent_n even_o mother_n by_o their_o godly_a education_n of_o their_o child_n may_v be_v instrumental_a to_o the_o conversion_n of_o their_o child_n who_o will_v deny_v it_o a_o notable_a instance_n i_o can_v give_v of_o a_o die_a mother_n speak_v to_o a_o wicked_a rebellious_a son_n she_o have_v other_o child_n godly_a god_n bless_v her_o word_n that_o he_o become_v a_o gracious_a man._n three_o the_o election_n of_o the_o people_n do_v not_o make_v a_o minister_n dr._n owen_n have_v speak_v enough_o to_o this_o 139._o lib._n 2._o p._n 83._o 85._o 139._o unto_o officer_n of_o the_o church_n be_v require_v say_v he_o election_n of_o the_o people_n submit_v themselves_o unto_o they_o in_o the_o lord_n and_o the_o solemn_a set_v they_o apart_o by_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o after_o that_o he_o write_v that_o church_n order_n be_v defective_a that_o want_v the_o symbol_n of_o authoritative_a ordination_n viz._n imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o in_o his_o exposition_n of_o the_o hebr._n l._n 3._o p._n 33._o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v a_o right_n of_o stand_v use_n in_o the_o church_n and_o that_o wherein_o church_n order_n be_v much_o concern_v in_o his_o second_o book_n of_o the_o church_n mention_v before_o p._n 136._o he_o prove_v there_o aught_o to_o be_v many_o elder_n in_o one_o particular_a church_n this_o he_o prove_v one_a from_o scripture_n two_o by_o reason_n one_o of_o which_o he_o fetch_v from_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v say_v he_o there_o be_v but_o one_o elder_a only_a in_o a_o church_n upon_o his_o death_n or_o removal_n this_o imposition_n of_o hand_n must_v either_o be_v leave_v unto_o the_o people_n or_o be_v supply_v by_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o church_n or_o be_v whole_o omit_v all_o which_o be_v irregular_a he_o do_v acknowledge_v the_o ordination_n he_o have_v without_o imposition_n of_o hand_n when_o he_o turn_v independent_a be_v defective_a whether_o dr._n owen_n have_v his_o hand_n in_o draw_v up_o the_o savoy_n confession_n i_o know_v not_o but_o we_o see_v upon_o mature_a thought_n when_o he_o be_v leave_v the_o world_n he_o give_v his_o judgement_n according_a to_o the_o holy_a scripture_n which_o shall_v be_v the_o only_a guide_n and_o
novel_a thing_n different_a from_o the_o apostle_n and_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o best_a church_n the_o last_o time_n i_o be_v with_o dr._n owen_n discourse_v with_o he_o about_o church-government_n he_o be_v say_v to_o i_o i_o will_v say_v know_v whether_o the_o government_n of_o the_o house_n of_o god_n be_v likely_a to_o be_v most_o prevalent_a be_v carry_v on_o by_o one_o single_a pastor_n or_o by_o many_o elder_n meet_v together_o and_o act_v in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o lord_n i_o think_v the_o question_n may_v be_v easy_o answer_v and_o in_o order_n to_o it_o i_o state_n the_o question_n quest_n whether_o unto_o the_o right_a constitution_n of_o a_o particular_a gospel-church_n it_o be_v necessary_a that_o all_o the_o officer_n and_o member_n of_o the_o church_n do_v meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n at_o one_o time_n to_o celebrate_v all_o the_o institution_n of_o christ_n the_o learned_a dr._n owen_n have_v change_v his_o opinion_n from_o what_o it_o be_v when_o he_o write_v his_o country_n essay_n for_o the_o practice_n of_o church-government_n 5●_n p._n 5●_n when_o he_o will_v have_v the_o extreme_a of_o the_o division_n not_o above_o eight_o or_o ten_o mile_n so_o the_o centre_n not_o more_o than_o four_o or_o five_o mile_n from_o any_o part_n of_o it_o etc._n etc._n he_o now_o tell_v we_o to_o manife_v that_o assembly_n of_o the_o whole_a church_n at_o once_o and_o in_o one_o place_n for_o the_o celebration_n of_o divine_a worship_n be_v of_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n without_o which_o it_o have_v no_o real_a be_v the_o lord_n appoint_v the_o male_n which_o be_v the_o circumcise_a church_n shall_v appear_v in_o one_o place_n three_o time_n a_o year_n exod._n 23_o 14._o deut._n 16.16_o i_o do_v not_o think_v that_o place_n be_v but_o a_o subject_a and_o time_n a_o adjunct_n shall_v be_v essential_a to_o a_o church_n yea_o so_o as_o no_o real_a be_v without_o they_o neither_o be_o i_o satisfy_v with_o this_o proof_n for_o their_o 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to_o they_o nor_o can_v they_o meet_v in_o the_o court_n all_o at_o one_o time_n to_o worship_n god_n there_o be_v in_o david_n time_n 6._o 1_o chron._n 21.5_o 6._o one_o million_o five_o hundred_o and_o seventy_o thousand_o man_n beside_o the_o tribe_n of_o benjamin_n and_o l●●i_n that_o draw_v sword_n the_o dr._n tell_v we_o 353._o one_a book_n p._n 87._o &_o 353._o the_o member_n of_o such_o a_o church_n may_v and_o aught_o to_o meet_v occasional_o in_o distinct_a assembly_n especialty_n in_o time_n of_o persecution_n for_o prayer_n pread_v of_o the_o word_n mutual_a exhortation_n etc._n etc._n and_o in_o another_o place_n the_o constant_a meeting_n in_o one_o place_n be_v not_o best_o for_o edisication_n since_o he_o mention_n preach_v of_o the_o word_n i_o suppose_v he_o mean_v their_o officer_n be_v with_o they_o to_o preach_v to_o they_o and_o why_o not_o then_o as_o well_o to_o administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n as_o to_o preach_v one_o scripture_n against_o it_o i_o will_v glad_o see_v to_o baptise_v they_o do_v not_o question_v there_o be_v three_o teach_v elder_n in_o dr._n owen_n church_n the_n only_a church_n that_o i_o know_v of_o in_o england_n that_o come_v up_o to_o the_o apostolical_a pattern_n these_o three_o may_v meet_v together_o with_o their_o member_n in_o time_n of_o persecution_n especial_o in_o three_o distinct_a assemble_v consequent_o place_n to_o pray_v to_o preach_v to_o baptise_v and_o to_o administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n for_o any_o thing_n i_o know_v out_o of_o god_n word_n then_o may_v not_o we_o meet_v in_o distinct_a assembly_n to_o such_o end_n and_o yet_o be_v but_o one_o particular_a church_n as_o he_o be_v but_o for_o other_o end_v we_o may_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n so_o in_o the_o country_n village_n we_o may_v have_v many_o elder_n in_o one_o particular_a church_n as_o he_o say_v there_o aught_o to_o be_v else_o i_o know_v not_o how_o we_o shall_v do_v for_o church_n in_o the_o country_n but_o to_o come_v to_o the_o question_n if_o the_o whole_a church_n meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n and_o at_o one_o time_n be_v essential_a to_o a_o church_n and_o it_o have_v no_o real_a ●eing_v without_o it_o than_o it_o must_v be_v prove_v 1._o either_o from_o divine_a precept_n or_o 2._o from_o the_o example_n of_o the_o church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n or_o 3._o from_o force_v reason_n draw_v from_o the_o end_v of_o worship_n for_o the_o first_o i_o see_v none_o name_v but_o example_n be_v the_o proof_n and_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d mention_v in_o the_o act_n and_o corinthian_n be_v the_o cornerstone_n of_o this_o building_n five_o time_n pious_a and_o learned_a amt_n quote_v these_o word_n 755._o word_n vol._n 2._o p._n 755._o dr._n lightsoot_o have_v speak_v very_o clear_o to_o these_o word_n against_o it_o i_o grant_v where_o there_o be_v many_o elder_n and_o much_o people_n dwell_v so_o that_o they_o can_v meet_v convenient_o in_o one_o place_n to_o carry_v on_o all_o church-work_n as_o be_v the_o case_n of_o all_o the_o church_n we_o read_v of_o in_o the_o gospel_n be_v in_o city_n there_o be_v a_o particular_a church_n without_o any_o question_n so_o i_o yield_v to_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o i_o wish_v these_o man_n who_o be_v so_o rigid_a for_o one_o place_n have_v but_o the_o experience_n in_o themselves_o which_o i_o have_v observe_v in_o other_o precious_a christian_n who_o have_v no_o coach_n nor_o horse_n to_o carry_v they_o but_o crazy_a body_n yet_o long_v for_o the_o ordinance_n which_o they_o may_v have_v have_v if_o my_o notion_n may_v prevail_v within_o two_o stone_n cast_v but_o for_o this_o notion_n of_o the_o one_o place_v they_o must_v travel_v two_o mile_n they_o do_v so_o but_o when_o they_o come_v home_o at_o night_n they_o be_v so_o spend_v and_o tire_v that_o to_o bed_n they_o must_v go_v the_o next_o day_n come_v complain_v to_o i_o they_o have_v lose_v the_o benefit_n of_o the_o ordinance_n they_o can_v mind_v nothing_o but_o their_o pain_n many_o christian_n have_v infirm_a body_n must_v nor_o enjoy_v the_o ordinance_n at_o all_o when_o they_o may_v have_v they_o the_o next_o door_n have_v god_n no_o respect_n to_o the_o body_n of_o his_o people_n as_o to_o the_o example_n he_o bring_v the_o question_n be_v whether_o there_o be_v no_o more_o christian_n in_o these_o city_n than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n if_o not_o then_o it_o be_v no_o more_o than_o i_o have_v yield_v before_o for_o these_o have_v many_o elder_n in_o they_o to_o carry_v on_o all_o church-work_n which_o the_o dr._n faith_n ought_v to_o be_v and_o be_v the_o thing_n i_o stand_v upon_o from_o the_o apostolical_a constitution_n of_o church_n but_o if_o his_o argument_n from_o example_n be_v so_o cogent_n than_o he_o must_v bring_v we_o example_n out_o of_o these_o city_n where_o there_o be_v more_o christian_n than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n at_o one_o time_n and_o so_o be_v force_v to_o meet_v in_o more_o place_n and_o these_o make_v more_o distinct_a church_n if_o these_o example_n can_v be_v bring_v than_o i_o yield_v the_o question_n from_o example_n but_o if_o no_o such_o example_n can_v be_v bring_v as_o i_o be_o sure_a there_o be_v not_o one_o in_o all_o the_o gospel_n then_o the_o argument_n from_o example_n fall_v and_o be_v of_o no_o force_n obj._n if_o they_o do_v meet_v in_o distinct_a place_n they_o be_v and_o must_v be_v distinct_a church_n answ_n but_o his_o proof_n be_v all_o from_o example_n and_o that_o imply_v there_o be_v such_o church_n de_fw-fr facto_fw-la else_o there_o can_v be_v no_o example_n 2._o i_o deny_v the_o consequence_n for_o though_o a_o number_n of_o christian_n do_v swarm_v out_o of_o the_o first_o church_n