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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41335	Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652.	1692 (1692)	Wing F969; ESTC R31512	41,078	37

M● Quick's Sermo a● Mr. Faldo 's Fun●ral p. 22. What Mr. Q●ick writes I am both an Eye and Ear-witness to About fitty sour Years since he Preached on Mar. 2.5 in Boston in New-England and did think-the P●●●●-man had Faith because Christ tells him his Sins were forgiven but no Forgiveness without Faith up rose one first forsooth he was not satisfied then another after him then Mr. Cotton our Teacher he took up our Pastor's Case and defended it and ten one after another fell upon him Tho' the Text does not say when Jesus saw his but their Faith it doth not follow but the Palsie-man might be included in the word their and his Faith put them on both the Bearers and Palsie-man had Faith This was too common in that Church though the most publick where Seamen and all Strangers came Sir Henry Vane was the Man that did embolden them when Ministers had done Preaching he would find Questions to put to them though they were Strangers Second Question AReverend Author out of a Book composed as he tells us by several Bishops and great Doctors and approved by Authority in King Henry the Eighth's dayes hath Collected these Propositions First That a Parochial or congregational-Congregational-Church Government is accordint to the Church of England jure Divino Secondly That the Diocesan or National Government is jure Hamano Thirdly That Protestants except some obscure Writer assert Particular Churches to be the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Church-Government Among whom saith he there are these differences 1. The Episcopal and Presbyterian differ from the Congregational about the Extent of particular Churches i. e. the Congregational concludes there must be no more than are capable of Personal Communion The former make a greater extent and give too great advantage to Papacy 2. They differ concerning the Nature of Discipline the Congregational being esteemed an Espouser of a Democracy the Presbyterian of an Aristocracy the Episcopal of Monarchy But Maccovius a Theol. Polem p. 161. Keckerman b Syst Theol. p. 3. mention another Aristo Democratical and Dr. Ames c Medul Theol. p. 1. c. 33. thes 20. seems to be of the same judgment Fourthly All Protestants agree in afferting the Independency of particular Churches Thus far my Author That we may understand one another clearly Suppose we then that all the Christians in England that dwell in their several Parishes were such as deserved the Name of Visible Saints these meet every Lords-Day in their Parish-Church as they call it to Worship God where there is but one Pastor Lecturers and Readers are but in few Parishes in the Countrey nor have they any Power in Church-Government 1. Are these the particular Churches you mean by the words Parochial and Congregational I suppose my Brother means so 2. Is every such particular Church the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Power of the Keys 3. Are all these Independert my Brother hath said it First I desire my Brother would Name one such Church which the Apostles did Constitute but with one Teaching Elder or Paster Secondly How you may perswade the Pastor to admit the People to be Rulers with them I cannot tell but I doubt we should have a Monarclical-Government set up in every Parish in England which you say the Bishops espouse Mr. Norton as acute and Learned Divine as New-England had being at a Meeting of about forty Elders one that was newly come into the Countrey was reading to the Elders what his Judgment was about Church-Government He would have it to be Democratical quoting Morellus several times What have we to do with Mor●llus said Mr. Norton to me if I cannot prove the Government of the Church to be Presbyterial I will give up our Cause Thirdly If all these particular Churches be Independent I fear we should have wild doings Experience have proved it already At this day we see woful effects of it If there be one or two Gentlemen of Purse Piety and Parts that stick close to the Minister and awe the People things may go on quietly else if there be but two Self-conceited pragmatical Fellows as I have known you should soon see what will become of your Parochial-government Fourthly Suppose the Pastor be foully scandalized by some of his Church one or more how shall the Government be carryed on shall he be Plaintiff and Judge in his own Case I have known a Case where a Pastor had great Offence given I propounded the Case to Dr. Owen * And Mr. Faldo whether that Pastor should proceed according to Matth. 18.15 16 he told me by no means when he heard my Reason We shall meet with hard Cases if we come to set to Government indeed Fifthly Suppose the Pastor himself grow scandalous how shall Government be carried on now Sixthly Good Men and Ministers are subject to Passions and Infirmities whence it is not fit the Government of the Church should be Committed to One alone Seventhly To Govern will is a Gist by it self a Man may be a good Preacher but no good Governo●r Eighthly When our Lord sent out the Apostles and the Seventy only to Pre●●● he sent them out by two and two Mar. 6.7 L●k 10.1 Now a single Paster undertakes all Ninthly The Jewish Synagogues bad several Elders to carry on the Government in one of their Synagogues and we but one 〈◊〉 vident O●●li quam O●ul●s It is true our Pastor with his People may truely be called a Church as that Woman who had no Arms but held bee Pen between her Toes and so wrote 〈◊〉 have seen of her Writing 〈◊〉 may well be said to be Animal rationale a r●●io●●● Creature but had God made the W●●an so at first the Woman had not been a 〈…〉 to Man So here is a Company of V●●ible Stints one Pa●●or here is Preaching Prayer Administration of Sacraments and in some Cases Excresse of Discipline so that it is a true Church but not such a Church as the Aposlles sent by Christ did Con●●itute 〈◊〉 to answer all ends of a Church 't is imperfect defective and our Duty is to write after that Copy the Apostles of Christ have set us Dr. Owen hath proved there ought to be many Elders in every Church 2d Part of the Church p. 138. by Scriptures and Reasons I think sufficiently Soon after the Apostles in the Primitive Churches Mr. Clarkson in his Discourse against Diocesan Churches his first Book p. 5.21 hath shown there were more Presbyters in every Church than were necessary In those Virgin Churches in the Valleys of Piedmont which were never desiled with Popery but kept pure from the Apostles dayes where I find Ordination was with Imposition of Hands contrary to our Men I read in their low Condition seven Elders made a Classis they carryed on their Government by joint Councils they had their Consistories and 140 Pastors heretofore in a Synod Whence this one Teaching Elder or a single Pastor in a Church is a

but ordinary Ministers God blesseth their Preaching The Indians some of them are converted gathered into a Church Were they a Church before these Ministers And were they the first Subjects of the Power of the Keys before these Ministers preached to them Let the Scriptures in the Languages that the Spirit of God inspired his Pen-men to write them be sent to a People who never saw them nor heard of them Let this People understand them believe them embrace them give themselves up to them without any Ministry to translate to interpret and to help them to understand and believe I will allow this People to be the Subjectum Primum Secundum Tertium of all the Power of the Keys but rot else Secondly There are others who lay claim to this and impropriate it to themselves as belonging to them only i. e. Bishops as being of a Superior Order above Teaching Elders Thus Bishop Gawden told me it was out of Courtesie that the Bishop admitted Presbyters to impose Hands with them in Ordination Thanks to this Courteous Bishop I thought they had followed the fourth Council of Cartbage But if Presbyters do impose Hands with the Bishop then the Superiority of the Bishop above the Presbyter in Ordination is gone For Imposition of Hands is the Principal thing in Ordination as I will prove anon because one prays at the Imposition that argues no Superiority of Power in him All Bishops were not of this Bishop Gawden's mind not that Bishop of Peterborough who when he ordained many at one time but then take notice That he did ordain them as Presbyter He spoke not without Reason for no Ministerial Acts in the Church are valid but such Acts as are performed by Ministers of Christ's Institution They who are Officers in the Church by Civil or Ecclesiastical Constitution all their Acts as such signifie nothing But his being a Bishop and so superior to a Presbyter was by no Institution of Christ had only jus Humanum to Warrant his Authority and therefore he did not ordain as such a Bishop but as Presbyter Two I know Mr. Statham as I heard and Mr. Samuel Smith who were then Ordained Mr. Smith spake of it often what the Bishop said to them and ●●d them take notice of it Had Mr. Smith lived till now he had been about 78 years of Age suppose him to be Ordained about 25 years of Age some by this may guess what the Name of that Bishop was about 58 years past I have often thought of this the meanest Officers in the Common-Wealth be they Rum-bailiffs Ale-Founders yet they must have Law for their Office to Warrant their Actings But that in the House of God there should be such as look upon themselves as the Chiefest Officers in the Church and yet can shew no Law from the Lord of the House to Warrant their Office this is strange what hath jus Humanum to do in the House of God Is not the Wisdom of the Great God Sufficient to know what Officers to appoint in his House but sinful Man must set up Officers and supream Officers too without him Thus Bishop Gawden told me The Bishop is the Supream Officer He should have said the Arch-Bishop in the Church you Presbyters are but the Pipe-staves the Bishop is the Hoop that holds you together An excellent similitude I desired him to tell me who should be the Cooper to knock on this Hoop I doubt I told him the Pope would swear by his Keys that he must and will be the Cooper And Bellarmin will maintain it by his Argument a Simili c. De Romano Pontif. mibi 204. He told me moreover you Presbyters are no more able to manage the Government of the Church of England than David was able to wield ' Saul's Armour The Government of the Church of England is a hard word there needs an Interpreter We poor Presbyters look only to the Government of our particular Flocks whom we feed with the Word and Sacraments over whom God hath made us Bishops Acts 20.17 28. If all the particular Congregations in England supposing them to be visible Saints were so govern'd then by an Induction of particulars it might be so call'd We do not indeed in our Government use Writs de Excommunicato Capiendo Prisons Fines Cutting off Ears these are Saul's Armour but none of Paul's spiritual Weapons 2 Cor. 10.4 with which we are content If it be well examined it will be found that the Zeal of his Government hath been carried out against Consciencious Men who for Doctrin Worship Discipline stick close to the Word of God without admitting any Humane Inventions to justle with him I say the Zeal has been carried out against those far more than against Whore-mongers Drunkards prophane Swearers Dam'mees c. I can but take notice of Dr. Lightfoot 1 Vol. p. 787 788. that learned Man and Son of the Church of England living in the times of our Persecution who denys Bishops to be Successors to the Apostles And that it is an improbable and unconstant Inference that because there was Subordination between the Apostles and Philip. in Acts 8. that therefore the like is to be reputed betwixt Bishops and other Ministers I have done with this I only aimed at this Teaching Elders may Ordain and we have Divine Authority for it in the Texts before mentioned These we are sure are Officers in the Church by Christs Institution The Lutherans have Bishops yet they deny any inequality jure Divino between Bishops and Presbyters quoad Potestatem Jurisdictionis Therefore Gerrard answering Bellarmin appropriating Ordination to Bishops saith De Minist Eccles p. 261. there is not one tittle in all God's Book that Ordination by Bishops should be valid but by Presbyters should be Null The next thing is it must be performed with Imposition of Hands I named five Scriptures for this before What Dr. Owen saith Ordination of Ministers is one thing Imposition of hands is another differing as the whole and the part I yield it by this whole he must mean totum integrale it cannot be totum universale but we say in Logick suolata qualibet parte tollitur perfectio Integri sed sublata parte principali tollitur integrum Then I say where there is not Imposition of hands there is no Ordination for this Imposition is the principal part and so tollitur Integrum That it is the principal part I prove and this shall be my first Argument 1st The Spirit in the Apostles sets forth the whole Ordinance of Ordination only by Imposition of Hands but never by Fasting and Prayer 1 Tim. 4.14 the laying on of the Hands of the Presbytery 1 Tim. 5.22 Lay Hands on no Man suddenly That in those Texts Ordination is meant and not Confirmation nor reception of Penitents nor the Sick I have proved in another Tract so that I insist not upon them Heb. 6.2 This my Brother with whom I now deal denyes to be Ordination but it is meant

Puritans and gave his Question accordingly Great Expectation there was in the University Mr. Rogers being Fellow of Christs-Colledge came up Opponent the first Argument he used was so strong and he followed it so close that he Crampt the Respondent down fell the Ceremonial Champion the Under-graduates observing it went to Mr. Rogers took him out of his Place and carried him out of the Schools upon their Shoulders when he was in the Schools yard a Fellow of St. Johns comes behind him and gives him a Clap on the Back as he was on their Shoulders with these Words Rogers go home and Hang thy self thou wilt never dye with more Honour This is the Man with whom after he had Preached on his Lecture-day I walked to his House As we were in the way he asked me where the King was I told him He looks upon me and said If that King dyes the ordinary Death of Men then God never spake by me I was amazed to hear such words come from so grave and eminent a Divine O Sir said I to him What do you mean to speak such Words concerning the King I beseech you give me your Reasons why you speak thus He fixed his Eyes upon me and gave me only this Answer Say you no more to me but do you observe what I say to you I was much troubled at these words A few dayes after I met with two of his intimate Acquaintance excellent Christians and told them I was much troubled at what I heard Mr. Rogers speak concerning the King they asked me what he said Note this I told them they Answered me That might very well be for before the Wars began while the Kingdom was in Peace he told us If this King Charles and this Prelate Laud dye the ordinary death of Men then God never spake by me Bishop Laud's Head was off before I came into England I asked them if he spake of any more they said No only those two I thought tho' he were a very heavenly Man and one much with God in Prayer yet I did not take him to be immediately inspired by God as the Prophets were and so the Thoughts went off Afterwards when the High Court of Justice as they called it sate upon the King I did not mind his words for I did not think they had any intention to take away the King's Life When I understood they were in earnest I went to Church on the Fast-day with a purpose to stir up the People to Pray for the King's Life but before I came there one overtakes me upon the Road and told me the King was dead It was the Fast-day on which Mr. Rogers alwayes Preached in the Forenoon In the Afternoon which he never did before but once as I remember he comes to our Church I suppose to observe how I resented the King's Death After I had done Mr. Rogers goes home with me and discoursing about the King's Death he recalled a Passage I had in my Prayer concerning it Thou saidst true said he to me and there this Old Prophet I may call him so leaning upon my Table bemoaned the Death of King Charles being much affected with it Let others judge of this as they please yet this I dare say No Prophet immediately inspir'd by God did with more Confidence speak concerning Thing or Person as he was inspired than Mr. Rogers did confidently foretell that King should not dye the ordinary Death of Men. That he should have any hand in the King's Death no rational Man that knew him would think so 1. For he never came among Parliament or Army Men but an old Man lived retired at home 2. So many Years as I lived by him I do not remember that ever I heard him speak against the King 3. The Words were spoken before the Wars began to others thô after they were begun to me 4. He bemoaned the King's Death 5. Thô he was a very gracious Man yet he was exercised too much with God's Hidings of himself from him to have any Hand in such Acts. What Use to make of this I leave to Wise Men. A Weighty Question DISCUSSED Whether Imposition of Hands in the Separation of a Person to the Work of the Ministry be necessary BEfore I come to the Question give me leave to premise a few things First Tho' Gifts are Essential to a Minister they must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 2.2 to whom Timothy must commit the things he had heard c. Yet Gifts do not make a Minister I have known several Gentlemen they were Scholars indeed who as to Gifts were as fit for the Ministry as most Ministers at this day in England yet these worthy Men did not invade the Office of the Ministry as many illiterate inferiour and too many erroneous Mechanicks do now to the disgrace of that Function Had they been grave experienced Christians as I have known some called forth tryed and ordained by Learned Divines to Places suitable I should not have opposed but encouraged and preferred before many who are called Schollars but irreligious and ignorant in Soul-Works Secondly Persons may be instrumental to the Conversion of others and yet not fit for the Ministry I have known such That Parents even Mothers by their godly Education of their Children may be instrumental to the Conversion of their Children Who will deny it A notable instance I could give of a dying Mother speaking to a wicked rebellious Son she had other Children godly God blessed her Words that he became a gracious Man Thirdly The Election of the People does not make a Minister Dr. Owen hath spoken enough to this Lib. 2. p. 83. 85. 139. Vnto Officers of the Church are required saith he Election of the People submitting themselves unto them in the Lord and the solemn setting them apart by Imposition of Hands And after that he writes that Church Order is defective that wants the Symbol of Authoritative Ordination viz. Imposition of Hands And in his Exposition of the Hebr. l. 3. p. 33. Imposition of Hands is a Right of standing use in the Church and that wherein Church Order is much concerned In his Second Book of the Church mentioned before p. 136. he proves there ought to be many Elders in one particular Church This he proves 1st from Scripture 2dly by Reasons one of which he fetches from Imposition of Hands Is saith he there be but one Elder only in a Church upon his Death or Removal this Imposition of Hands must either be left unto the People or be supplyed by the Elders of other Churches or be wholly omitted all which are Irregular He did acknowledge the Ordination he had without Imposition of Hands when he turned Independant was defective Whether Dr. Owen had his hand in drawing up the Savoy Confession I know not But we see upon mature thoughts when he is leaving the World he gives his Judgment according to the Holy Scriptures which should be the only Guide and

Nov●l thing different from the Apostles and the Practices of the best Churches The last time I was with Dr. Owen discoursing with him about Church-Government he was saying to me I would sain know whether the Government of the House of God be likely to be most prevalent being carryed on by one single Pastor or by many Elders met together and Acting in the Name of the Lord I think the Question may be easily Answered and in Order to it I state the Question Quest Whether unto the right Constitution of a particular Gospel-Church it be Necessary that all the Officers and Members of the Church do meet together in one place at one time to Celebrate all the Institutions of Christ The Learned Dr. Owen having changed his Opinion from what it was when he wrote his Countrey Essay for the practice of Church-Government p. 5● when he would have the extream of the Division not above eight or ten Miles so the Center not more than four or five Miles from any part of it c. He now tells us To manisest that Assemblies of the whole Church at once and in one place for the Celebration of Divine Worship is of the Essence of a Church without which it hath no real Being the Lord appointed the Males which were the Circumcised Church should appear in one place three times a Year Exod. 23 14. Deut. 16.16 I did not think that Place being but a Subject and Time an Adjunct should be Essential to a Church yea so as no real Being without them Neither am I satisfied with this Proof For their Meetings three times a Year were to perform three particular Services proper to the Jews and that but once a Year and that day the Law appointed and no other we have no such Appointments under the Gospel The Lord's Supper which answers the Paslover was Celebrated every Lords-Day in the Primitive Churches 2ly Only the Males appeared then We think Women and Children as well as then Children are Members of the Church and ought to appear with the Males to Worship God every Lords-Day 3ly When they were in Jerusalem the Metropolis of the Kingdom how did their eating the Passover in a thousand it may be two thousand several Houses answer our Partaking of the Lords Supper at one Table in one particular Church we should have so many Churches The other Feasts were proper to them Nor could they meet in the Court all at one time to Worship God there being in David's time 1 Chron. 21.5 6. one Million five hundred and seventy thousand men besides the Tribes of Benjamin and L●●i that drew Sword The Dr. tells us 1st Book p. 87. 353. The Members of such a Church may and ought to meet occasionally in distinct Assemblies especialty in times of Persecution for Prayer Preading of the Word mutual Exhortation c. And in another place The constant meeting in one place is not best for Edisication Since he mentions Preaching of the Word I suppose he means their Officers are with them to Preach to them and why not then as well to Administer the Lords Supper as to Preach one Scripture against it I would gladly see To Baptize they do not question There were three Teaching Elders in Dr. Owen's Church the only Church that I know of in England that came up to the Apostolical Pattern these three might meet together with their Members in times of Persecution especially in three distinct Assembles consequently Places to Pray to Preach to Baptize and to Administer the Lords Supper for any thing I know out of God's Word Then may not we meet in distinct Assemblies to such Ends and yet be but one particular Church as his was but for other Ends we may meet in one place So in the Countrey Villages we may have many Elders in one particular Church as he saith there ought to be else I know not how we shall do for Churches in the Countrey But to come to the Question If the whole Church meeting together in one place and at one time be essential to a Church and it hath no real ●eing without it then it must be proved 1. Either from Divine Precept Or 2. From the Examples of the Churches planted by the Apostles Or 3. From forcing Reasons drawn from the Ends of Worship For the first I see none named but Example is the Proof and the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mentioned in the Acts and Corinthians are the Corner-stone of this Building five times pious and learned Amts quotes these words * Vol. 2. p. 755. Dr. Lightsoot hath spoken very clearly to these words against it I grant where there are many Elders and much People dwelling so that they can meet conveniently in one place to carry on all Church-work as was the Case of all the Churches we read of in the Gospel being in Cities there is a particular Church without any question So I yield to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But I wish these Men who are so rigid for one place had but the experience in themselves which I have observ'd in others Precious Christians who had no Coaches nor Horses to carry them but crasie Bodies yet longing for the Ordinances which they might have had if my Notion might prevail within two Stones cast but for this Notion of the One Place they must Travel two Miles they do so but when they come home at Night they are so spent and tired that to Bed they must goe the next day came Complaining to me they had lost the Benefit of the Ordinances they could mind nothing but their Pain Many Christians having infirm Bodies must nor enjoy the Ordinances at all when they might have them the next door Hath God no respect to the Bodies of his People As to the Examples he brings the Question is Whether there were no more Christians in these Cities than could meet in one place if not then 't is no more than I have yielded before for these had many Elders in them to carry on all Church-work which the Dr. faith ought to be and is the thing I stand upon from the Apostolical Constitution of Churches But if his Argument from Examples be so Cogent then he must bring us Examples out of these Cities where there were more Christians than could meet in one place at one time and so were forced to meet in more places and these made more distinct Churches If these Examples can be brought then I yield the Question from Examples But if no such Examples can be brought as I am sure there is not one in all the Gospel then the Argument from Examples falls and is of no force Obj. If they did meet in distinct places they were and must be distinct Churches Answ But his Proof is all from Example and that implies there were such Churches de facto else there could be no Example 2. I deny the Consequence for tho' a Number of Christians did swarm out of the first Church