determine what 's fitt and conuenient for the whole Christian communitie and strugling to force their opinions vpon the church against the sentence of the churche's Gouernors which surely ought to preuaille in such a case Looke but into the exemples of anie polliticall common wealth and see what inequalitie there is betwixt twelue pence and a man's life and yet our laws ordaine the losse of life for the stealth of a shilling or there abouts not considering the valew of the thing stollen but that such a fact is the breach of publicke iustice in the common wealth which if it were permitted no mā should be Maister of his owne This then being supposed I doubt not but you will grant likewise that in a church vertue is to be engendred and conserued with great care and diligence And although the same things which first breede pietie and deuotion doe afterwards conserue it yet may there be some things more proper for the conseruation then for the breeding of it and contrariewise others more proper for breeding then conseruing it according as the different state of anie thing that growe's towards perfection doth require a diuers care and attendance Tell me then cozen how thinke you is the breeding of vertue performed in man kinde I meane not the first breeding How vertue is bredde in man which is donne by instruction but the flourishing increase of it and the bringing of it to strength Nephew Sithence vertue is nothing but the loue of what is truly good for man and that we cannot loue what we know not vertue must needes be cheefly increased by cleerely seeing and often thinking of the thing we ought to loue and of such things as belong vnto it and make it appeare worthie of loue Amongst which one is that it be in our power to obtaine it Where vpon I see that the breeding of vertue consisteth in three things often thinking of it's obiect highly esteeming of it and conceiting it to be possible Which corresponde's to the three stepps and degrees you made of tēding to anie good And if these three things be well obserued and performed by anie societie of men vertue must of necessitie increase and florish in that communitie Vncle. I am glad you profit so well and make such good vse of what I saie If now therefore cozen the disputs and differences which are in particular positions betwixt vs and Protestants doe concern◠all these three pointes and that highly will you not confesse that they are of great importance For the first you haue heard I am sure how God Allmightie in the old law would haue men's harts perpetually busied about his law how he would haue them to thinke of it at home and vpon the high waie morning and euening how he would haue his comandments bound to their hands and so euer wagging before their eyes and written vpon the frontispice of their houses All which was to signifie that the memorie of God's law could not be too great being not sufficient to thinke of it in the church only or at vacant times from necessarie labours but that our thoughts ought euer to be imployed that waye The like doth the Catholike church causing to be erected vpon the highwaies in market-places and in corners of streetes some times crosses with our sauiour's image nailed vpon them some times his flagellation his coronation his resurrection his ascention or some other mysterie of our redēption or pious representation to putt vs in minde of what ought to moue vs to the loue of God which are frequently to be seene in Catholike countries in euerie house in euerie roome ouer euerie dore whereof there be yet some markes in our owne Countrie And can you thinke that this diligence of our forefathers compared to those commāds of God Allmightie in the old law to be ouer much Or that the zeale of those who pulled downe these memories of Christianitie was according to science Doth not the questiō of this pointe cleerely concerne the increase of vertue and the churches Gouerment Surely it doth For I thinke no wise and indifferent man can doubt but that pictures must needes breede manie good thoughts which would neuer haue beene without them What true Christian can looke vpon the representation of anie bloodie passage of our sauiour's passion but he will be moued to some good thought or sentiment if he haue anie feeling of Christianitie in him Or if some be not moued to pious thoughts by such an obiect will not manie others be And none can doubt but that from such deuout thoughts doe naturally proceede and floe manie vertuous affections and these affections doe engender perfection it being their connaturall leauings and effect And this perfection is that which saueth our soules So that you see some come to saluation others to a higher degree of perfection and cōsequently of Blisse by the vse of pictures Where by the waye you may note that if pictures haue this effect in our soules to what degree of reuerence and affection will not the blessed Sacrement it selfe raise them who truly and assuredly belieue Christ's reall corporall and substantiall presence to be cōtinually in their churches and vpon their Altars And what a motife of loue doe they take from the church who refuse and denye this pointe Nephew You speake with reason and common sense in my iudgment And in deede the price of one soule is more worth then anie temporall good euen of state nay euen of the whole world which besides the pregnant reasons I haue heard you giue for this pointe our sauiour him selfe doth testifie it in expresse and plaine words Neuerthelesse vncle Math. 16. I see t' is the course of the world not to esteeme of a smale part of a great number but to looke only vpon the greatest part Which whether it be the shortnesse of our discourse and in Gouerment not able to reach to particulars or whether it be the mutabilitie of nature not suffering it self to be bound to some one straine though the best and perfectest which causeth this our vnhappinesse I know not but so t' is that a smale number is not regarded Which I speake to this pourpose that one might answere your discourse in a word and saie The good which the vse of pictures bringe's is so smale and litle that it is not worthie looking after and therefore may well be neglected without anie great losse HoW the vse of pictures Worke it's effect in man Vncle. Few words cozen may putt a man to a great difficultie And the rather in this matter because the vse of images hath two conditions the one that it worke 's it's effect by litle and litle so that the present effect is almost still imperceptible the other that it is neuer the jmmediate nor the sole cause of it's effect but hath euersome other cause ioyned with it which may produce the same effect without it so that I saie hauing these two conditions t' is
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
working and that violence must carrie it Vncle. Did you neuer take notice of your selfe how that if you harken to a discourse of anie thing which you vehemeÌ„tly desire to know how attentiue you are how fearefull that anie word should slippe vnheard or not vnderstood how quiet you keepe all your thoughts how still and vntroubleâ— your phansie that what you heare may sinke downe into your soule as distinctly and in the same frame and order as it floweth from the speaker So you see that the loue or desire to know anie thing is the most efficacious disposition we can haue to attaine to the knowledge thereof Now you know that this life and conuersation of the soule in hir bodie is giuen hir to prepare and dispose hir selfe for the next life Is it not therefore euident that that soule which most desire 's to see and know God that is which most loueth God in this life and particularly in the time of hir departure out of this world goe's out of hir bodie with the best and perfectest preparation and disposition to see and know God in the life to come which is our expected and eternall happinesse Nor is this against what you haue beene taught for loue is the most actiue and consequently the most violent thing in the world and therefore if heaueÌ„ must be obtained by violeÌ„ce loue certainely must be the waye Wherefore you see we are to considere the necessitie of controuerted pointes of Religion in as much as of their owne nature and of theÌ„ selues they doe cause and make professours of christianitie to loue God and desire to see him For sitheÌ„ce this loue and desire is the meanes and waye to heauen it must needes follow that according as anie pointe or position doth produce or contribute to this effect in the soules of Christians the necessitie of such a pointe must bee of the same degree There is a necessitie of belieuing all points of faith in generall out of an other principle to witt in that the church proposeth them vnto vs as such which we must accept and belieue in all or none being the same reason and motiue in all but this I shall take occasion an other time to shew vnto you You will saie peradueÌ„ture if this be so what neede 's the knowledge of Christian doctrine can there be imagined a greatter motiue of loue then that God is and that he is goodnesse it selfe Is not this alone a sufficieÌ„t motiue to make all creatures melt into the loue of him And this suerly may be knowne by pure naturall reasoÌ„ Why theÌ„ is the knowledge of pointes disputed betwixt the Protestants and vs to be held necessarie Nay to what end must we needes know anie part of Christ's law for the attaining of Blisse since loue will doe it and the most efficacious motiue of loue is to be had with out it Nephew You haue posed me now for truly I see that goodneesse is able to rauish all the harts in the world and this is so cleere and common that it neede 's no proofe Wherefore me thinke's if meÌ„ would considere and follow this motiue of God's infinite goodnesse they would not want loue and not wanting loue according to your discourse thâ—y must of necessitie attaine to euerlasting Blisse and Happinesse Why therefore anie other knowledge should be absolutly necessarie I see not much lesse doe I coÌ„ceiue wherefore we should thinke §. 3 That the pointes wherein the Arrians and other Antient Heretikes differed from Catholikes are pointes of necessitie to be knowne and belieued VNCLE What thinke you cozen if the motiue of loue which we speake of were such why God's goodnesse as knowable by nature is not a sufficieÌ„t motiue of loue to all mankinde as that few men and great clarkes only were able to reach and conceiue it not consequently be moued and affected with it Doe you thinke some other motiue more easie more generall and more common were not necessarie whereby the people and ordinarie sort of men might be moued and affected Or doe you thinke that mankinde could be said to haue sufficient meanes to attaine to Blisse and Happinesse if it had only such an one as that verie few could make vse of And that you may the better conceiue my question putt the case that on the one side there were such a meanes as that verie few could reach vnto it on the other side such an one as were accommodated to the capacitie of euerie man doe you not see that to saie mankynde may be saued by this or that meanes hath a quite different sense Mankynde in the one signifying the whole multitude in the other a smale or as it were no part of the multitude For that part of anie thing which is so litle as that it beareth no morall proportion to the whole is in our manner of speaking accounted as none Doe you not then see that it is necessarie that the meanes of our saluation be of this more generall and common nature Nephew I doubt it not and myne owne interest make 's me more inclined therevnto being God knowe's I am of the weaker sort And when I consid ere the good of saluation and the harme and miserie which followeth the losse of it and that we all acknowledge euerie maÌ„ to be capable thereof t' is euident that the meanes of attaining such an infinite good wherevnto we are all ordained ought to reach and lye within the power of all or at least of the most part of men But yet I see not why the infinite goodnesse of God is not a motiue sufficiently generall and common to moue and affect all the world Vncle. Why cozen Three degrees of tending to anie good you must considere that there be as it were three stepps or degrees by which we goe or tende to anie good The first to apprehende or vnderstand what it is The second to conceite and esteeme it And the third to desire and poursue it And in the prosecution thereof to preferre it before all other goods which deserue not so well and in our case to preferre it before all other goods whatsoeuer as being the greattest of all These three degrees be so disposed as that the last cannot stand nor be putt without the second nor the second without the first though contrarie wise the first may be without the second and the second without the third by reason of man's weaknesse HoW hard it is to conceiue God's goodnesse or anie spirituall thing Now if you considere that God Allmightie and his goodnesse is the most simple sublime and abstract thing that caÌ„ possibly be imagined And reflect but vpon the nature of Angells or of a soule nay eueÌ„ of a corporall substance seperated from all his sensible accidents and if you had the experience that I haue you would saie it were hard euen for the best witts to appreheÌ„de rightly and discourse consequently of these things And shall we not