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A97377 A most necessary & frutefull dialogue, betwene [the] seditious libertin or rebel Anabaptist, & the true obedient christia[n] wherin, as in a mirrour or glasse ye shal se [the] excellencte and worthynesse of a christia[n] magistrate: & again what obedience is due vnto publique rulers of all th[os]e [that] professe Christ yea, though [the] rulers, in externe & outward thinges, to their vtter dampnatyon, do otherwyse then well: translated out of Latyn into Englishe, by Iho[n] Veron Senonoys.; Von dem unverschampten Fräfel der Widertöuffer. English. Selections Bullinger, Heinrich, 1504-1575.; Véron, John, d. 1563. 1551 (1551) STC 4068; ESTC S113331 40,542 90

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was Hieroboam Achab Manasses c. Therfore we do now conclude not onely that a christian may execute the office of a magistrate but also that suche an offyce can not be prosperously and wel administred but by christians ¶ The second Dialogue ¶ That the office of a magystrate is not onely profytable but also most necessary to a christyan cōmon weale SIMON BVt what dost thou say to this that Christ answereth to Pilate My kyngdome is not of thys world Sith then that christyans are named after Christ surely for soo it semeth to me they ought to haue nothing to do with suche a kingdom nor I thinke it to be necessary to the chyldren of god For he that is a true christian doth wronge and violence to no man he doth not contend he doth not striue he hurteth no man he smiteth no body but liueth accordyng to the commaundemente of god Math. v. chap. IOI Christe was accused of high treason agaynste the imperiall Maiesty wherby the Iues thought soone to haue condempned him For they sayd he maketh him selfe kynge of the Iewes Our lorde woulde be semed as he oughte by ryght to be so farre from the affectation and coueting of any earthly kingdome that it shuld be agaynst all reason to suspect any suche thing of him Therfore he did answere My kingdom is not of this world els I should haue seruauntes and ministers which wolde endeuoure them selues to defend me So that Christ byd both confesse that he was king of heauē and also did signifie vnto Pilate that he had no cause to be afraid of the kingdom that he did minister vnto as thoughe he should go about to chalenge it vnto him whereof the Iues did accuse hym before Pilate The kingdom of Christe is not of thys world but in spirit truthe As though he should say I am a king yet notwithstanding my kingdom is not of this world but in spirit truthe SI This is my meaning Then the kingedom of Christe is not of thys world that is to say it doth not consist in outward dominion power wherby it foloweth that it is destituted or spoiled of glory pomp riches outward puissaunce and myghte Wherfore we ought to be here the outcast of the worlde we shal at length reygne with Christ in the regeneration IO. I do saye nothing against the but that thou dost gather therby the christians haue no nede of a magistrate that I do deny The reason why Because that Christe speaketh so of hys kingdom that in the mean season Christ doth so speake of hys kingdom that in the mean seasō he dothe not take awaye the politike magistrate he doth not condempne nor take away the magistrate Besides that the christians are not bare spirites but they dwel yet in the flesh which they do cary about As touchyng the spirit by the whych man is renued made a christian he hath no nede of a magistrate For the inwarde manne can be preserued with no outward things But as touching the flesh whiche he beareth about his outward conuersation man hath as muche nede of a Magistrate as of meat and other outward things For it is a lyke reason to say The Magystrate is as necessary to christians in this worlde as meat drinke The kingdome of the christians is not of this world ergo they haue no nede of a magistrate and to say The kingdom of the Christians is not of this world ergo they nede no meate For meat is eaten in this world SI If the spirit of a christian man is a true spiryt he hurteth no man If he hurteth no body what nedeth he a magystrate IOI Paul answereth ye. Princes are not fearful vnto them that do wel but to them that do euil Wilt thou not feare the power Do the thing that is good and thou shalt haue praise of it for he is the minister of god for thy good Yf thou doest that thinge which is euyll feare for he bereth not the swerd in vaine But he is the minister of god to take punishment vengeaunce of hym that doth the thinge which is euill Wherfore we must be subiects or obedient not onely for fear of punyshment but also for cōscience sake SIM There shal be no nede of al these thinges for the christian knoweth what Christ hath saied Do not resist or wtstand the euil IOI It is trew a christian ought not to reuenge him selfe rashly sith that the same doth perteine to the magistrate But this doth beguile you The libertins and Anabaptistes do dreame that Christians do not synne nor commyt any fa●te that ye do ymagin dream that the christian people is such as it is not nor euer was nor euer shall be yea such as it can not be ye wyl I say the christians to be of such a perfection that no man shal fall or syn emong thē In thys ye are deceyued For although there be many good mē yet notwtstandyng there be many mo hipocrites And the old auncient partiarks had the same cōmaundemētes that they shuld hurte no man they that were good in dede godly did wrong to no bodye yet for the wycked sake that were emong them there were yea them selfes were magistrates SIMON Yf wee were trewe christians we shuld haue no nede of Magistrates IOI The old patriarkes were very godly men yet not wtstanding they had nede of a magistrate not for them selues but for the wicked sake We do not speake of that yf we were such If we had the that we haue not we wold do that which we do not but of that that we are Syth thē that we be not as we ought to be it is necessary that we haue that with out that which it is impossible for vs to liue Yf we had great riches truely we shuld be rich if we had great lerning we should wtout doubt be great clearkes But we may not so gather ergo we nede not to labor we nede not to study Yf we had winges we shuld flee sith then that we haue no winges we haue nede of fete to go SIM We are al together vndone loste we are cleane cast awaie for we are no trew christians IOI Why so SI Because that we are yet soo vnperfite that we haue nede of a magistrate IO. Dost thou not yet vnderstande that the magistrate is for the wicked sake the honesty and vertue may be safe emong the euyl persons Why the Magistrate is ordeyned of God and the god hath ordeyned it SIM I do not vnderstand howe it hath bene ordeyned of god syth that Christ sayth Do not ye resist or withstand euyll IOI He doth forbid that no priuate person No priuate person oughte to reuenge his wrong for the belongeth to the magistrate shuld of affection reuenge his wronge he doth not forbid that a magistrate shuld not punisshe the euyl doers For the power is the mynister of
tumultes insurrections to be brought to vtter desolation Agaynst whom that ye may the better herafter be fēced enarmed in this point that is to say cōcerning the trew obedience toward magistrats rulers I haue here traunslated out of Laten into Englysh .iiii. small dialogues That famous clerke Bullinger is the autur maker of these dialoges betwene the rebell Libertin or anabaptiste the trew obedient christian Wherin ye shall learne fyrste that a christian contrarye to theyr most erroneous doctrine may lawfully execute the offyce of a maiestrate Secondlye that a Christyan Maiestrate is not onely profytable but alsoo necessarye to a christian common weale Thyrdly that we are bound to obey the maiestrates in all externe and outward things Fourthlye that we ought in no wise nor for any maner of cause to resyste the rulers gouernours where we do write largelye agaynst them whiche rebell agaynste the maiestrates Which smal laboure of myne I thought no man in this cuntrey so worthy to haue as your righte worshipfull mastershyppe First because of the good reporte that is geuen you of al the countrey about both for the feruent zeale that ye haue to gods word and maintenaunce of trew religion and also because that ye vse your selfe alwaies emong them as a most louing and tender father sekyng not your owne profyte but onely the profite and welfare of them that are vnder your gouernaunce ruledome Oh that all other gentylmen wolde imitate and folowe you both in the same thinge and also in kepyng of hospitalitie then shuld we haue shortly a mery England The second cause that moueth me to dedicate this litle worke vnto you is that ye are by the deuine prouidence of god and the kinges maiestie placed in authoritie for this our countrey of Essex in the which many of these Libertines and Anabaptistes are runnyng in hoker moker emonge the symple and ignoraunte people to impell and moue theym to tumulte and insurrection agaynste the maiestrates and rulers of thys Realme Whom I trust if ye ones knowe them ye will soone wede out of the countreye to the greate good quiet of the kinges subiectes of the same countye and shiere Nowe ryght worshipfull Syr though I be not knowen nor yet acquainted wyth your maistershyp wherfore it may peraduentur seme to some to be a bold act or interprise for me too offer or nuncupate anye maner of booke vnto you yet notwithstandynge the greate facilytye and gentylnes that all men women and children do depredycate and saye is in you dothe put me in verye good hope that ye wil take this my rude laboure in good worth Which thinge if ye doo hereafter paraduenture greater and more seryous thynges shall ensue god wyllynge who of hys infynyte mercye and bounteous goodnesse vouchsafe wyth his holy spyryt so to rule and guide your heart wyth that godlye Ladye youre trewe louynge spouse and wyfe that what soo euer ye shall do or thynke in all your affayres maye be to the glorye of god the common weale of the Realme and the saluation of your soules AMEN The Dialogue That a Christyan maye execute the office of a maiestrate The interloquutours IOIADA the trewe and obedient Christian and SIMON the Libertine or Anabaptiste IOIADA GOd spede Simon thou comest betyme I se that thou art desirous of the truth wherfore I haue a good hope that thou shalt obteyne come by that thynge whiche thou desireste so greately Touching the magistrate where vpon we were determined to haue reasoned I doute not but that I shall satisfye the in al thinges But tell fyrst what thy iudgement is SIM Thyne opynion is that a christian maye execute the offyce of a Maiestrate but I do thynke that both the word example of Christe repugneth to thys opynyon For when they wold at a certeyn tyme choose him to be a kyng he did runne awaye Ihon vi Which thing he wold not haue done yf it had not bene against all godlynesse And in the .xxii. cha of Luke Christ with expressed wordes speketh to his disciples after this maner The princes of gentiles do beare rule and they that haue power are called benefyciall ye shall not so but he that is greatest emonge you shal be the least and he that is chyfest shall be as he that mynistreth By these wordes it is manifeste and playne that it becommeth not chrystyans to execute the offyce of a maiestrate It is lawfull for the heathen and infidels for Christ saith The princes of the gentiles Christe came to redeme the world with hys bloud IOIADA Christ came not to take awaye the publyke magistrates much lesse to execute their office but to redeme the world with hys bloud Wherfore he doth runne away not consenting to the affections of the people for he could not haue taken vpon hym the offyce of a king without commotion the Romains not permitting it which were thē rulers But who euer so gathered his argument Christ was neuer a baker ergo no Christyan The folysh argumente of the Libertins or Anabaptistes canne be a baker Why then do ye make this argument Christ neuer executed the office of a maiestrate ergo it is not lawfull for a christyan to be a maiestrate or beare rule In the .xxii. of Luke Christ doth warne the apostles of their dutye forbyddeth that they should not be busye in other mens matters for they had stryued by the waye who should be greatest emonge them after the death of Christe For they dyd ymagin that there shoulde be such a power and rule emong them as the bisshop of Rome hath vsurped in the latter daies in the church He doth plucke from the minds of his disciples this soure disease of ambitiō desire of honor knowinge wel that this should be the chief distruction of Ecclesiasticall prelates Therfore he vsethe these wordes The princes of nations c. As if he shoulde say The princes gouernours of nations are appoynted to rule to gouerne as for you ye haue an other offyce gyuen you Yet notwithstandyng the offyce of a magistrate is not abolysshed by these words but it may very wel stand by the apostleshyp as it is most manifest by the words of Christ But this doth begyle deceue the that thou doest take this word Gentium for the heathen infideles For they are here by a maner of speaking called princes and kynges of nations whyche do gouerne and bear rule in the world which power as the apostles do testifye is ordeyned of god whych thing Christ doth expresse by these words Why princes and rulers are called euergetae that is to say beneficiall They are called Euergetae that is to saye beneficyall because that they are ordeyned to do good to them that are good vertuous SI By this reason and meane I maye cast of whatsoeuer can be layde agaynst me oute of the scriptures saying This was said to the apostles it
to call ernestley vpō god for delyuerance wythoute or agaynste thys order as thoughe he had begonne or enterprysed that thyng by the wyll and cōmaundemente of God he shall auayl no more then Ismael dyd agaynst the Babiloniens in kyllyng Godolias .iiii. of the Kynges .xxv. chapter and Hieremye .xl. chapter But go to we wyl bryng furth out of the armorye and storehouse of the scryptures weyghtye exaumples where by it shall be made manyfeste and plaine bothe by what meanes god delyuereth hys electe and alsoo howe vnfortunatelye and vnluckelye they dyd spede whiche dyd go aboute to delyuer theym selues by boldenes ond tumulte agaynste the wyll of God The people of Israel dydde serue in Egipte certayne hundred yeares beynge oppressed wyth sundrye and dyuers labours and greuouslye afflycted besydes that they were compelled too se howe theyr chyldren and infantes as soone as they were borne were drowned in the ryuer of Nilus By and by as soone as they beganne too call to the Lorde wyth a trewe heart they were hearde of the Lorde For he dydde sende Moises whyche shoulde be a captayne and a delyuerer of the people He dydde carye theym drye shoed thoroughe the redde Sea and dydde drowne Pharao wyth all hys hoste and armye in the botome of the deepe Exodus the fourtene Chapter Saule kynge of the Israelites dyd kyll and murther the Prophetes of God and persecuted the innocente and ryghtuouse Dauid Oh most godly Dauid that we might haue grace in our troubles and affections and when we are most oppressed to ensue folowe thy steppes god graunte we maye Dauid dothe notte reuenge hym selfe nor put hym from hys kyngdome but rather he flyeth him selfe and when he had fallen twyse intoo hys handes he spare hym and dyd suffer hym too goo awaye vnhurte or wythoute harme sayinge The Lorde be mercyfull vntoo mee that I doo not that thynge too my Lorde the anoynted of the Lord that I should lay mine hand vpon him for he is the anointed of the lord The Lorde lyueth that excepte the lorde doth smyte hym or hys daye become that he dye or he goyng downe too battayle do perysshe the lorde be mercyfull vnto me that I do not lay mine hand vpon the anointed of the lord .i. of the kings xxiiij At an other tyme when Abisai did saye The lord hath shutte vp to day thine enemy into thine hands now therfore wil I thrust him thorow with a spear to the ground once it shall be no nede of the seconde time Dauid sayde vnto Abisai Doo not sley him For who shal lay his hands vp on the anointed of the lord shall be vngiltie .i. of the kinges .xxvi. cha These wordes my Simon being wel weighed and pondered do teach vs that we must not folow the blynd affection of our flesshe For when the time was come that the lorde had appointed not Dauid but the lord him self did take Saul away frō the world with the swerd that he him self had sent dyd set vp Dauid in the roial kingly seat The chyldren of Israel haue bene many times afflicted vnder tirants vngodly kynges as we haue in the history of the iudges no man did go about of his own head or of his owne industry to deliuer them But the lord him self did deliuer them by Gedeon Samson Iephte other like whō he him selfe had chosen to suche businesses Who doth by sedition tumult inuade or come vpon the vngodly king Achab. when he doth set vp ydols commaundeth that innocent good man Naboth to be stoned to death keping neither ryght nor equitie slaying the prophetes persecuting Helias tyl that the lord doth styrre vp Eliseus which at the commaundement of god doth anoint Iehu king that he shuld take vengeaunce for the lord of the vngodly .iiii. of the kinges ix.x So Io●ada did vnto Athalia so the king of the Assirians did to Manasses How long time did the Emperours of Rome shede the christian bloud yet notwtstandyng no man goeth about to better it by tumult til Constantinus Magnus did come I could reherse vnto the Thrasibulus a tirant of the Athenienses William Tell Stouffaker tirants of the Heluetians but we wyll be content with the examples of the scripture SI Shalt it then be alwaies lawful to tirants to be vngodly that wtout punishment which of the words of Paul Ro. xiii Do take a cloke a buckeler shielde of their own malice vnder the which they fraude deceiue they steale they robbe they slaye they murther confounde all things they euery foote slea the poor commons to the very bones with new exactyons taxes subsidies being in the mean season giuen to riot and outragyous excesse to drunkennes to vnlawful gaining to whordome and most vniuste warres and therwith committing moste detestable dedes and wycked factes agaynste god and the common weale But I wil shewe to the out of Hieremy .xv. chap that the people is punisshed of god because that they thus suffer tyrauntes and vngodly prynces to kyll and flea without any punishment For after the .iiij. plagues that he doth rehearse there he addeth by and by the cause saying And I wil deliuer thē vp into the fury of al the kingdō of the earthe that is to say I wil styrre vp againste them the fury rage of al the kingdoms of the earth for Manasses sake the sonne of Ezechias the kyng of Iuda for all the wyckednes that he hath done at Ierusalem Se in the .vii. of the kynges .xxi. chapt what wyckednes he did commit if the Iewes had not suffered their kynge thus wtout punishment to be so wycked they shuld not haue bene so greuouslye plagued of god It behoueth to pull oute the offending eie to cast it away likewise of the hand and of the fote IOI Here be .ij. questions The firste is whether the tyraunte must be remoued from his roume or not The seconde howe and by whō Therfore I do not deny but that a wycked magystrate must be put downe but not the same way that thou wylte Noo man ought to kyll hym nor to styrre vp warre and sedition against him we must go to worke an other maner of way the matter muste be attempted and assayed by lawful meanes for god hath called vs in peace .i. Corinthians the seuenth chap the tyraunt must be taken away that do I not denye for Samuel dothe depose Saule from hys offyce and doth anoynt Dauid kynge ouer the people of Israel Ioiada putteth furthe Athalia from the ruledome and maketh Ioas a kynge If then a kynge be made by the common assente of all the people and begynneth too be wycked let hym agayne be put downe wyth common assente of the people excepte they wyll all be punysshed wyth hym And yf he be chosen by the cōsent election of fewe princes let the people signifie shew unto them the wycked and vngodly lyfe of thys kinge