act play his part or handled his weapons like a skilfull master of defence halfe so well you have indeed to deale plainly and truly puzzâ—ld my wits a litle and put my reading perhaps to some stagger If you can play the man and lay about you as well in the other seven Propositions for the second whereof in token of challenge I here cast downe my glove as the Appellant calling for your personall appearance to answer the challenge in this place to morrow by sun-rising you may perhaps work more with my present opinions beginning to waver then you are aware Orthod I refuse not your challenge but in signe of acceptation I take up your glove and will not faile to be in the field at the houre assigned Interim I wish you good rest for this night and sharper weapons for the next morning The second dayes Conference upon the second Proposition Het A Good morrow to you Orthodox worthy Champion Defendant you come well armed I make no doubt at all pieces Orthod The same salutation to you Hetrodox noble Champion Appellant whose armes I wish to be more pungent in the conflict of this day then I could find them in our late former skirmish Hetrod Be pleased then without further delay and more losse of time to lay forth your second Ground or Proposition Orthod Nothing pleaseth me better Then mark well the words and contents thereof Christ our Saviour as the Sonne of God equall to the Father is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and yet all the time that he was clothed with our mortall spoyles not onely before his bitter death but likewise after his most blessed and glorious resurrection he never exercised the least power of a secular and temporall Prince Hetrod Make that good and you shall win the spurs or carry away my weapons out of the field Orthod Then sure it shall goe very hard but I will here leave you unarmed in the place For Christ our Saviour was never invested or inthronised in any temporall Kingdome Pilate makes the question to Christ Art thou a King Christ gives the answer Thou sayest I am a King But know O Pilate howsoever I am a King yet my Kingdome is not of this world that is not a temporall Kingdome When that multitude of people who had been miraculously fed and sated with five loaves and two fishes were minded and purposed to make him King he stept aside that he might not be taken by them and so made King He never took upon him to sit as Judge or Umpire in any mans cause Tho. Aqui. in ep ad Roman but answered those who required him to give sentence in a certaine litigious matter Who made me a Judge over your persons or your causes Yea he directly acknowledged Pilate Caesars deputy or Governour to be his lawfull Judge Thou couldst not have any power over me if it were not given thee from above Hetrod This your second Proposition seems to shoot and have a fling at matters of State in present question and no meane garboyles But in sooth it doth not so much as touch the same for they treat not of temporall Kingdomes but of Ecclesiasticall affaires so that your Proposition serveth onely to bewray your own bad affection and erroneous conceit I therefore must give you thus much to understand Very certaine it is that Christ as he was Man mortall did never exercise any power of a temporall Prince in this world For his comming into the world it is his owne testimony was to suffer to serve to teach men contempt of worldly wealth and honour as also by his humility and obedience to chalke out and make plaine the way or path which leadeth to the celestiall Paradise before the face and eyes of all proud and rebellious or disobedient people The Sonne of Man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life for the redemption of many Mar. 20.28 The Sonne of Man hath not whereon to lay his head Learne of mee that I am meek and lowly in heart Ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ Luc. 9.58 Mat. 11.29 2 Cor. 8.9 Phil. 2.8 that he being rich for your sakes became poore He humbled himselfe and became ebedient to the death even the death of the crosse But your Proposition should carry this one joynt or branch more That Christ even as man in case he had been so minded might have assumed to himselfe the dominion of all temporall causes or matters and made himselfe a King or an Emperour Jam. 11. Heb. 1.2 which of the two he would The Father hath given all things into his hands and hath made him heyre of all things Againe It should not have been put down in your Proposition that Christ after his Resurrection exercised no power of a temporall Prince without addition of this clause that Christ after his Resurrection even as he is man hath obtained the government of the whole wold not as a temporall Prince but as an Eternall Prince Reve. 1.5 Mat. 28.18 farre superiour to all temporall Princes as the first begotten of the dead and Prince of all earthly Princes and to whom all power is given both in Heaven and in earth Which power is not properly temporall bâ—cause it is eternall and yet is above all things both temporall and eternall But now againe that Christ acknowledged Pilate for his Judge as you affirme I must be bold to tell you Orthodox It smells somwhat ranke of errour For Christ even as man was the High preist with power of excellencie yea he was the head of men and of Angells so that he had no superiour upon the face of the whole earth neither could he be judged of any other I meane de jure by right Philip. 2.8 howsoever perhaps de facto by fact he might be brought coram nobis upon his owne sufferance and permission For it was he that humbled himself viz. because he would be so humbled by the death of the Crosse And as for his words to Pilate Thou couldst have no power over me O Pilate if it were not given thee from above where Christ seems to take Pilate for his Judge this answer I make By power in those words is meant Permission and so the sense of that passage results to this reckoning That Pilate had never been able to stir either one foot or finger if it had not been by Gods permission In the same sense are these other words to be taken Luc. This is your houre and the power of darknesse And this is the answer of the holy Fathers Chrysostom and Cyril in their Expositions upon the 19. of John In 13. ad Rom. But whereas Thomas understands the same place of Iohn of the power that Princes have from God it likes me well to confesse and say that Pilates power as the Minister of Cesar was from God from whom all lawfull power descends Howbeit with your favour that such power in
the judgement and authority of Chrysostome of Thomas of Augustine of Theophilact expositors of the same text who agree not in consent like harpe and harrow but jump and accord all in this one cleere exposition that Paul there speaks of subjection to secular Princes What mean you then Hetrodox to deny this Orthodox exposition and to contend that S. Paul there speaks of power in generall and of papall power in particular which in S. Pauls time was hardly crept out of the shell at least not crept up to any degree of sublimity but lay lowly couched and louting after a sort if it was then at all in the person of one poor one simple one lowly Apostle Moreover if S. Paul there speaks of power in generall how can these words following in the same context Give tribute unto whom yee owe tribute for he doth not beare the Sword for nought be dexterly and aptly applyed or fitted to power in generals The husband I trow hath power over his own Wife the father over his own child the pedant over his own Schollars what Have these also power to exact lawfull tribute and to condemne their Subjects unto corporall death Our Saviour to shew that his Kingdome was not of this world as he spake to Pilate and that his power was none of those higher powers meaning no terrene or worldly Power was pleased to use this argument Joh. 18. If my Kingdome were of this world then would my Ministers fight without all question but now because my servants fight not in my quarrell that I might not be delivered to the Jewes for certain my Kingdome is not from hence Exacting of tribute and bearing the Sword to take vengeance on those that do evill is directly so proper to the secular Prince and to his Ministers that by no meanes it can or may be applyed to any other power S. Paul therefore speaks there in particular and not in generall And howsoever it may seem that some things there spoke and taught by the Apostle may by Allegory and in a spirituall or mysticall sence be applyed to the spirituall Prelate as by name that he beares the Sword viz. of Gods word or the Sword of Excommunication and that he exacts tribute viz. of Teares and repentance yet whensoever any dogmaticall point is handled it is needlesse to seek a knot in a rush needlesse to hunt after Allegoricall constructions and sences most of all needlesse to pick out contrary senses as in our present case This doctrine makes very much for the firm establishing of the secular Princes authority thorow all Christendome therefore in this argument or subject we neither ought nor need to runne and fly unto allegories but are to stand firme and to hold us fast by the proper and litterall sense of Scripture Hetrod Hitherto you have argued and wrought upon the matter by reason I will not say how good or how strong Let me now see how you can back and strengthen the same point with solid authorities Orthod The interlinear glosse upon the former passage of S. Paul thus Potestatibus sublimioribus id est Secularibus bonis vel malis To the higher powers i. e. To secular powers whether good or evill A little after thus In hoc quod sublimet id est mundanis to higher powers i. e. to worldly powers Irenaeus thus Non diabolus determinavit hujus saeculi regna c. The Kingdomes of this world are not disposed by the devill but by God for the Kings heart is in the hand of God Prov. 8. By me Kings raign S. Paul thus Be subject to the higher Powers Thus farre Irenaeus Tertullian thus Quod attinet ad honores regum c. Lib. de Idolol c. 25. Touching honour due to Emperours and kings we are commanded to carry our selves in obsequious obedience at all times according to the Apostles rule Be subject unto Princes and Magistrates S. Augustin thus Quod autem ait omnis anima c. In expos quar propos ep ad Bon. And whereas S. Paul saith Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers for there is no power but of God He therein deales and workes by holy and wholsome admonition that none be puffed up with pride in this regard that God hath called him to Christian liberty that no man be perswaded to runne out of his ranck and to quit his assigned station in the peregrination of this life that none be of this false beliefe that he ought not stoop to submit his neck unto the yoake of higher powers ordained for the time to beare the chiefest swaie in the mannaging ordering and governing of temporall affaires For whereas men consist of soul and body so long as we continue in this life temporall and have use of temporall things as good stayes and supporters of this life We ought in matters pertaining unto this life to be subject unto powers that is unto men by whom humane affaires are ordered and administred with some degree of honour thus farre S. Augustin In which passage I observe these three things The first S. Paul as he is there expounded by S. Augustin speaks for the particular of secular Princes and not for the generall as you pretend The next S. Augustin himselfe a Bishop of Episcopall authority and jurisdiction there saith Nos Wee even wee Bishops must be subject unto the powers The last S. Augustin useth an emphasis in the word Oportet we ought which word implyes a necessity of subjection By all the fore-alleadged authorities it well appeares how great difference large distance there lyes between your assertion and the doctrine of the holy Fathers by name of S. Augustin the very light and bright shining Sun of all Divines And what say you to that of Thomas Circa primum c. Touching the first we are to consider that some Christians in the primitive Church denyed at least in word and assertion subjection to terrene powers They pretended and stood upon their Christian liberty obtained and purchased in Christ according to those words of Christ himselfe If the Sonne shall make you free you shall be free indeed Now the liberty granted by Christ is that spirituall liberty by which we are freed from sinne as it is written The law of the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus hath freed me from the law of sin of death whereas the flesh yet remaines in bondage and under the law of sin The man therefore once freed by Christ shall never be obnoxious to subjection either spirituall or carnall when Christ hath delivered up the Kingdome unto God even the Father and hath layd aside or put down all rule with all authority and power In the mean time so long as wee are clothed with corruptible flesh we must be subject unto Lords carnall as it is written Servants be obedient unto your Masters according to the flesh which is the very same that S. Paul saith Let every soul be
Manâ—â—cript Lectures and in his first Books the words of Sotus are both found and read If now being of another mind he be not pleased to acknowledge and grant us the same and would have us to belâ—eve that he hath not written what I now avouch and averre the matter is not of any great consequence In his Books we see infinite alterations choppings and changings every day Sotus by him cited hath left it upon Record and that serves my turne And howsoever it imports but little to the principall question whether he will have it so uttered by the tongue and penne of Sotus or no that puts me to no manner of trouble so long as I finde it extant in the writing of Sotus himselfe whose Doctrine whose phrase nay whose verie words the learned take notice to be in great request with his Lordship and not a little pleasing to his appetite 6. You practise no small subteltie of refined wit when you shew that you are so unwilling to have that opinion which is taught by many Canonists called an opinion of the Canonists where is in the same companie a Divine the same opinion and that an opinion of the same may not be called an opinion of Divines when one Canonist is of their side and holds the same Tenet But every Novice in Theologie knowes that Appellatio Donominatio fit a majori parte things have their Appellaâ—ion and Denomination from the greater part yea Bellarmine himselfe works upon this distinction and the title of the question using this Argument Probatur opinio Theologorum ergo contraria opinio est Canonistarum the opinion of the Divines is approved and therefore the contrarie opinion is the Canonists amongst whom albeit in these last impressions he cites Navarrus a Canonist and not a Divine neverthelesse for the reason before alledged it is of no import The opinion of those who affirme the Pope to be Lord in Temporals is called the opinion of Canonists because it is not founded upon any Authoâ—iâ—ie of Scripture but only upon certaine Canons or Lawes Registred in the Decrees and Decretals and the contrarie opinion is that of the Divines because it is built upon Gods Word in the holie Scriptures 7. The Supreame Power Temporall you say is by all Authors except Heretikes granted to the Pope If that be so then doubtlesse Navarrus take him for one amongst many other is a notorious Heretique in this formall conclusion In cap. Novit Quare dicendum est Papam nullam habere potestatem laicam neque supremam neque mediam neque infimam The Pope therefore stands in no degree at all of Laiorck Temporall power neither in the highest nor in the middle nor in the lowest Region of Temporall power For my part I call that opinion Heresie and so I compt it which in explicite and implicite sense fights against holy Scripture and such is the opinion of all those who affirme the Pope to have Supreame Temporall Authority Our Lord Christ saith Mat. 16. Tibi dabo claves Regni coelorum I will give thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven and the Pope saith Regni terrarum of all Earthlie Kingdomes Christ saith Mat. 20. Mark 10. Luke 22. Ioan. 19. Ioan. 20. Reges Gentium dominantur eorum vos autem non sic the Kings of the Earth beare rule over them but so shall not yee and the Pope saith vos autem sic and so shall ye Christ saith my Kingdome is of this World and the Pope saith nay my Kingdome is of this World and over the whole World Christ saith as my Father hath sent me so doe I send you my Disciples and the Pope saith not as the Father hath sent me so doe I send you There be two Supream Powers two Heads of all Christians Professors of Christian Religion Terrena potestas caput Regem Spiritualis potestas habet Summum Pontificem Hug. de Sanct. vict l. 2. de Sacr. p. 2. c. 4. the King is the head of all Earthlie and Temporall power the Pope of all Spirituall power Pope Gelasius in an Epistle to the Emperour Anastasius Duo sunt Imperator Auguste quibus principaliter mundus hic regitur Auctoritas Sacra Pontificum Regalis Potestas This World Decr. dist 96. Caudâ—o sunt most noble Emperour is chiefly governed by two Supreame Powers the Sacred Authoritie of Popes and the Temporall Authoritie of Kings Innocentius III. held this Article for so certaine and indubitable that he made no scruple to affirme Cap. Novit Regem in Temporalibus neminem Superiorem recognoscere that in Temporall causes the Kings of the Earth doe acknowledge and take no mortall creature to have anie Superioritie of Power or any right any reason to crowe over their Crownes How then can there be anie truth in the L. Cardinals affirmative Pontificem recognoscit the King doth acknowledge the Pope for that is to say the Pope is dignified and endowed with Supreame Temporall power with which words I must confesse that I am plunged in a deepe pit of astonishment For those Authors who grant an indirect Authoritie to the Pope break not forth into this unreasonable and exorbitant excesse but use a certaine mitigation of the word indirectlie as that it is Spirituall non per se sed per accidens not in it selfe but by occasion and accessarilie to write in case of necessitie and most of all with consent of the parties interested But for any to affirme the holie Fathers power to be Supreame and Temporall fateor scandalum est mihi to me I must confesse it is a scandall or stumbling block and stone of offence so long as not onely the true doctrine but also the Doctrine of the Lord Cardinall Bellarmine can hold up the head and stand in full force l. 5. de Rom. pont c. 3. and 4. 8. I have not charged the Lord Cardinall to hold the foresaid Booke was never of St. Thomas his penning I have onely alledged that his Lordship hath made so good and so cleare demonstration of that point that never yet anie answer durst peepe abroad to contradâ—ct his Lordships demonstration As for your subterfuge that the said Historie was perhaps afterward primed or popt into the foresa d Booke that carrieâ— no shew of proâ—abilitie seeing you produce not anie one conjâ—cture not any one reason to fortifie the same For to what purpose had any man a mind to patch up the said Historie in so good so faire a Wâ—b as the foresaid Booke to what end how long time since He that dares take upon him to affirme these things shall make the credit of all Histories to shrinke and shake The Lord Cardinall Baronius flies to the same Answers as to his best refuge When he is put hard to his trumpes and shifts how to untie the knot of an Argument drawne from Historicall Authoritie straitwaies he thinkes to take up mens lips and to dazzle their eye-sight with such and such words are
Pilate was extended and stretched over Christ it grew out of Pilates ignorance who never knew the super-excellent dignity of Christ and gave sentence against Christ as against a private person of the same Country or Territory whereof then under Cesar he was L. President or chief Governour As if a Priest in these dayes under the name of a Laic and in a Laic habit should be brought by warrant before a Secular Magistrate or Judge he might be judged by the same power whereby he judgeth all other Laics yet doth it not follow that Priests are to come under the judgement of Laics or that Christ was to submit his neck under the yoke of Pilates judgement Orthod You deny that in the present garboyles at which you wrongfully charge me to aime there is any reference to the temperoll Kingdome and yet because you needs will draw me to the scanning of that point I say it is most notorious that in a manner the best Freehold of all temporall Kingdoms is thereby drawn into debatement I let passe your Thesis and will stand upon the Hypothesis Say the Pope now sends forth prohibition to any Christian King or temporall State that he or they shall not meddle with judging Ecclesiasticall persons running into delicts of nature meerly temporall and no way reflecting upon spirituall matters Againe that he or they shall not frame particular Provisoes or Lawes concerning Lands not hitherto acquired or accrued to Ecclesiasticall dominion In quae bonae nondum ipsis est jus quaesitum I now demand By what authority the Pope sends forth any such prohibition I hope not by any authority of Temporall Princes or States for he is not Lord Paramount in Temporalls of their Dominions and Territories By like then he doth it by his authority of universall Pastor Now because that authority of Universall Pastor as we hold he holds as the Vicar of Christ it was not impertinent or superfluous for me to shew but necessary to demonstrate what authority Christ himselfe exercised in temporall causes For Christs authority must be the onely rule of the Popes authority witnesse the words of Christs owne mouth As my Father hath even so doe I send you forth Joan. 20. In which words Christ communicated the authority of jurisdiction to Peter and the rest of his Apostles as by Card. Bellarmine himselfe it is confessed And moreover for so much as the Disciple is not above his Master nor the servant above his Lord Luc. 6. it serveth to draw from those words Paseâ— oves Feed my sheep That as Christ himselfe was no Pastor in Temporals but in Spirituals in like manner the Pope Iure Pontificatus in his right of Popedome hath do authority or dominion in temporall matters and in particular when the lawes temporall Non impedunt cursum ad vitam aeternam are no hinderance in the way to life eternall but establish a civill peace are directed and leveld to the maintaining and preserving of that State of that Liberty of that Dominion wherin particular profession is made of Christian Religion and of Piety as also to the conserving and upholding of publ que justice Now then if I to bring proofe of all this have laboured in the first place to shew what power our Lord Christ himselfe exercised in temporall matters then sure I have spoken home to the point and nothing from the purpose as you cavill Now I will have a bout or a course at your errours not as in a May-game or light skirmish but with Champion-like devoyre 1. You confesse that Christ never exercised any temporall power in this world and it is all that I either have affirmed or can desire to be confessed Neverthelesse you take upon you to teach that I looked not before I leaped because I should have subjoyned that Christ if it had been his good pleasure might by his power have exercised the said temporall power Now as I freely canfesse and acknowledge that in this point you are not our of the right way that if Christ had been so pleased he lawfully might have exercised the said power because he was not only man but also God natures being united in one person and actions according to that rule in philosophy Sunt suppositorum idiomata communicantur according to that rule in divinity neverthelesse whereas you pretend that all I have delivered of this point before is to litle purpose and from the purpose you are to take this for a short but yet for a sufficient and full answer that our present question is de facto a question of the fact non de possibili not a question of what might be or what was possible to be done Forasmuch as the Popes authority being founded upon Christs example the supream Pastor it sufficed to shew what actions Christ himselfe used for the feeding of his little flock and not medle with another new question what actions he was able to do if he had been willing For doubts any man that Christ was able by extraordinary power to worke the conversion of the whole world To sanctify the whole stock and race of mankind in the twinckling of an eye without shedding one drop of his precious blood Is there any thing impossible with God Luc. 1.37 But well assured that arguments drawn from possible to fact are of no force therefore I would not be so idle before to talke of what Christ was able to do in temporall matters but what he hath done in very truth 2. This again you have supponed that our Lord Christ as mortall man had lawfull dominion in temporall matters But Moldonate a learned Jesuite of your own Order in his exposition of these words My Kingdome is not of this world In cap. 27. mat hath learnedly and effectually proved the contrary it may by some perhaps be collected that Christ had the temporall dominion of the world three wayes as he was man 1. By right of inheritance 2. By right of creation 3. By authenticall testimony of Scripture where in many places he is called a King and that as he was man which in effect is thus much That Christ was King of this world either jure naturali by the law of nature that is by the right of inheritance or jure humano by mans law that is by right of election or jure divino by Gods law that is by authority of Scripture But first by right of inheritance I say Christ was no such King for albeit he was descended from the royall stock of Judah yet wee know that Kingdome according to the fore-threatning of Almighty God ended and came to the last period in Jeconiah and was a kind of particular reigning neither was Christ lawfull heire apparant unto any other King Next he was no King by election for it is not known that ever he was chosen King by the People but rather that he gave them the slip and went aside when he knew they intended to make him King It