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A72176 A dialogue bewteene a papist and Protestant applied to the capacity of the vnlearned. Made by G. Gifford, preacher in the towne of Maldon. Seene and allowed according to the order appointed. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1599 (1599) STC 11849.5; ESTC S125231 92,498 190

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that you doe Among these ye dare be bolde to reason the matter to the full But this I say vnto ye let the diuell bring his note booke with him let the Pope and all his prelates vtter al the skill they can yet the word of God shall still be able to beate them downe in this matter to proue that subiects incurre damnation when they rebell against princes which are the ministers of GOD. As for the examples which ye bring I will shew how they doe not proue that which you alleage them for And then I will let ye see how it is to be proued by the law of God that subiects haue no such power against their princes but that euery priuate man doth very horribly rebell against the Lord God which rebelleth against the powers set vp by God Pa. Howsoeuer yee may seeme to dally with those examples which I haue alleaged yet sure I am they proue that which I doe alleage them for both that it is lawful to kil wicked princes also by colourable dealing for we haue example of the one in Ehud and of the other also in Iehoiada Pro. I will maintaine that which I haue said and shew that they doe not make for that which ye cite them for It is set forth in the Iudges that Israel had done euill in the sight of the Lord and he made Eglon king of the Moabites to preuaile against them to bring them into seruitude When the children of Israel cried vnto the Lord he raised vnto them a deliuerer euen Ehud Afterward it is set foorth how he came went with a present to Eglon desiring to speake with him alone and so slew him Consider well in this storie first how Eglon was an vniust vsurper Iudg. 3. oppressing Israel like a cruell tyrant where he had no right Secondly Ehud is no priuate man but raised vp by the Lord to be their deliuerer Wherefore he had authoritie from God to put downe Eglon euē as wel as a lawful king hath right to fight against such as inuade his land and to kil thē Lastly where Ehud did it colourably we may not draw it into an exāple because it was done by an extraordinary spirit which the pope cannot giue to other because he hath him not himself If he could giue to a priuate man that spirit which Ehud had to warrāt him thē were it somwhat As for the example of Athaliah the mother of king Achasia ● King 11. after she saw her son was dead did arise murder al the kings séed or the blood royal and so vsurped the kingdome she was neither lawful Quéene nor yet to be suffred to liue because she had cōmitted so horrible and cruel murder Wherfore Iehoiada in whose custody the yong king was secretly kept whē he brought him forth to be crowned did not by his owne right set vp a king whō it pleased him but was an helpe to bring the yong king to his right to put downe the wicked murderer vsurper This now maketh nothing at all for the pope whē he taketh vpon him power to depose kings at his pleasure and to set vp whom he shall thinke good Pa. I see well a man cannot bring you to see the power which the prince of the Apostles had and now his successor hath for to depose princes What should a man contend with one which doth not care what he denieth Pro. Christ Iesus whē he was desired by one that he would cōmaund his brother to deuide the land answered Luk. 12. Man who made me a iudge or a deuider Wherby he doth euidently shew that he had no ciuil authority no not in the least causes for els hee would not haue said who made me a iudge much lesse he had authoritie in the highest matters as to depose kings And for this cause when Pilate did aske him if hée were a king he did answer Iohn 18. my kingdom is not of this world likewise he did testifie his subiection to the Emperor Matth. 17. when he Peter did pay tribute How thē doth it come to passe that the pope shuld chalenge to haue that because he is M. vicar which neither Christ nor Peter had No he hath it not that way but because he is the man of sin which hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Moreouer what sayth Christ to his Apostles The kings of the nations rule ouer them Matth. 10. and they that are great exercise authoritie ouer them but it shall not be so among you I pray ye sir if the Apostles might not be as kings princes how had Peter this power to be king of kings or how cā a priest in Italie because as he saith he is the successor of Peter haue this high dignitie to be so farre aboue kings Ye must néeds confesse vnlesse ye will be wilful that the Pope can haue no such power neither from Peter nor Christ they doe both renounce him Then I reason thus as I said before Princes are set vp by God he hath made them his substitutes here on earth he hath not alone giuen them the seate and the sword but also hee hath clothed them with glorie put vpon them as it were of his owne robes when he calleth them Gods We are cōmanded to be subiect to honor and obey not to resist vnder paine of damnation If they command any thing which is disagréeing to Gods will they haue not that power ouer our conscience wee must obey God rather then man Neuerthelesse we are stil subiects to that power which they haue receiued from God And being but priuate men we must say with Dauid God forbid that I should lay my hand vpō my master the king the Lords annointed I say therefore that your Iesuites or whosoeuer fauour them which know their practises are traytors before God and man because they dare lift vp their hand against their soueraigne prince placed in the throne by the high God and subiect to no creature in earth I say therefore let all men take héede of your cursed and damnable waies Let all men sée that your kingdome is not of God which ye vpholde by treasons periuries lyes murders and all kind of euill meanes Pa. All is nought of our side and all good of yours Ye are so malicious that whatsoeuer we do ye condēne it your charity doth shew what ye are Pro. We must néeds say all that is nought which God saith is so I confesse our charitie and yours are not al one for the charitie of you papists is a burning loue Ye can both loue a man and cut his throte also The Lord defend his people from such Vipers which sting to death when they be gentlest of all But Idolatrie is alwaies cruell cannot be maintained but with diuelish and bloody mindes Pa. I know ye doe account vs to be Idolaters and so ye do call vs but we are as far from it as you be