whervnto he is called of God by his Prince and by the lawes of that realme wherein he is a subiect It is true that an Ecclesiasticall Minister doth much differ from a ciuil Magistrate Ministers may execute some kinde of ciuill iurisdiction touching his ministerie and spirituall calling yet is he not so distincte that he may exercise no such ciuill office wherein he may doe good and which is an helpe to his Ecclesiasticall function As the ciuill Magistrate may in some thynges exercyse iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall and medle in matters of the Churche so may the Ecclestasticall person in some causes vse ciuill iurisdiction and deale in matters of the cōmon wealth if it shall be thought expedient or necessarie by the chiefe Magistrates Caluine M. Caluine in his Commentaries vpon this texte thoughe in some poyntes he agrée A temporall lorde may be a preacher with you yet hath he these woords Adde herevnto that Christe did not so muche respecte the persons of men as the state of his Churche for it may so bee that he which is Lorde of a village or citie doe also necessitie constraining exercise the office of teaching Wherby it is playne that a temporall Lorde if necessitie require maye together with his Lordship become a preacher of the Gospel M. Brentius in his 48. Homilie Brentius What kynde of external do minion is denyed to ministers vpon Luke speaking of this matter sayeth that Bishops whiche glorie themselues to be the successours of the Apostles may not vnder the pretence of their Ecclesiasticall office vsurpe externall dominion ouer kings and Princes to make kings whom they list and to displace whome they liste And by and by he obietteth and answereth as followeth Therefore thou wilte say it is not lawfull for a minister of the Churche whether thou callest hym a Bishop or a preacher to haue temporall dominion and to gouerne What kind of temporall dominion a Minister may exercise the people committed vnto him by ciuill pollicie I answere that it is not lawfull for a Minister of the Churche to vsurpe suche rule and dominion vnder the pretence of the Gospell and of his Ecclesiasticall Ministerie Peter muste not therefore haue dominion ouer Antioche or Rome bycause he is an Apostle c. But if temporall dominion or possession happen to the minister of the Gospell eyther by inheritance or ordinarie election or any other Ciuill or lawfull contracte c. then maye he enioye these externall thyngs c. And in his 52. Homilie vppon these woordes of Christ nowe Idem in question he wryteth thus VVhat shall wee then saye to these thyngs bycause Chryste sayeth The kyngs of the Nations beare rule ouer them and are called bountyfull but it muste not bee so among you shall it not bee lawfull for a Christian man to beare rule in a temporall kingdome and acknowledge the tytles of honoure as of bountyfulnesse and clemencie whyche are gyuen vnto Princes Is it not lawfull also for a Bishop to haue temporall dominion Christe in thys place dothe not thynke it vnlawfull for Christians to bee Magistrates neyther dothe he forbidde Bishoppes to haue externall dominion But he sheweth a difference betweene the kingdome of thys worlde and his kingdome He teacheth that the kyngdome of this worlde and his kingdome are so distincte that he which is a minister of his kingdome must not in that respecte vsurpe the kingdome of this worlde for the Apostles thought that bycause they were Apostles therefore they shoulde possesse the kingdomes of the worlde And therefore Christe in this place condemneth their false opinion c. Christe doth not condemne Magistracie among Christians c. No he dothe not forbidde Byshops to haue externall dominion if they come vnto it by inheritaunce or by lawfull election It is a verye harde matter bothe to preache the Gospell and to exercyse temporall dominion and yet it is not of it selfe vnlawfull together with the ministerie to keepe and vse temporall dominion if it come ordinarily and lawfully For Christe came not to trouble ciuill lawes and the ordinarie gouernmentes of the kingdomes of this worlde but rather that these being preserued his Gospell might be preached quietly Haec Brentius But of ciuill authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons occasion wil be giuen to speake more at large hereafter That which Christ sayde Quicunque maior erit inter vos c. VVhosoeuer will be great Quicunque maior erit inter vos c. expounded among you let him be your minister though it may especially appertaine to the Apostles yet it is also a generall rule for all Christians and so is the example of him also whiche hée propoundeth vnto them And so doth Musculus verie truly interprete this place to whome M. Bucer agréeth whose woordes be these The Anabaptistes Buce in 20. thynke here that they are able to proue that it pertaineth not to a Christian to beare rule Mitth and that no man can be together a Magistrate and a Christian bycause Christe sayde They which ear rule godl y serue here to his Disciples Vos autem non sic not consydering that those whyche godlylle and according to the wil of the Lord beare rule Nihil minus quà m dominari imò maximè seruire tantò pluribus quantò pluribus praefuerint doe nothyng lesse than beare rule in deede yea verily doe moste of all serue and euen vnto so many doo they serue ouer howe manye so euer they beare rule surely Christe woulde haue his Apostles to haue their authoritie in Churches and they themselues did greately require to be obeyed but bycause in that they sought nothing vnto themselues but only saluation aud the glorie of God in those whome they ruled they did gouerne the Churches they had euery where the superioritie they ruled suche as beleeued they woulde haue the godlie to bee obedient vnto them interim nihilominùs seruierunt omnibus dominati sunt nemini And yet in the meane tyme serued all and had dominion ouer none So also in the Ciuill gouernmente who was euer in greater dignitie than Moses or more to bee feared for his authoritie and power and yet who euer serued mo more diligently and more humblye whiche neuer soughte any thing for himselfe or tooke any thing vnto himselfe c. but day and nighte to the vttermoste of his power sought for the safetie of the people c. If any now so beare office and rule the workes of the handes of the Lorde and gouerne the sheepe of his pasture according to his will what doth he else but serue all those whom he gouerneth And The place of Math. 20. generall therefore Christ doth not here dehort from bearing rule and being a Magistrate but from seeking rule and dominion for I had rather take this saying of the Lord in this generalitie than to restrayne it to the Apostles only Eò quòd omnino pius Magistratus seruiat non dominetur
Ergo Archbishops c. and their offices came out of the Popes shop you shoulde first proue that which ought to be your Minor T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 4. But that I runne not backe to that I haue hādled before I will not here so much rge y ◠place A cleanly shifte as I will not doe also y t of the Hebrues which followeth yet the argument is stronger than that M. Doctor could answere For if the writer to the Hebrues do proue our Sauiour Christs vocation to be iust and lawfull (*) Vntrue bicause his calling was conteined in the scriptures as appeareth in y e 5. and. 6. verse then it followeth that y e calling of the Archbishop which is not comprehended there is neither iust nor lawfull For that no man sayth the Apostle taketh the honour vnto himself but he that is called of God c. But I say hauing before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which ouerthrow the Archbishop I wil let passe these and other places answering onely that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them Io. Whitgifte This is a cleanly handsome shift to auoide y e defense of these grosse vnapt allegations The 〈◊〉 proueth not y t which is deuyed of scriptures I haue answered the argument grounded vpō the. 5. to y e Hebrues and required the proofe of the minor whiche is this that Archbishops Lordbishops c. intrude them selfes into their offices without any lawfull calling whiche bothe they and you haue omitted and therefore I haue answered sufficiently vntill you haue proued that which is by me denied It is not true that the Apostle to the Hebrues proueth the vocation of our sauiour Iesus Christ to be iust and lawfull bicause his callyng was conteyned in the scriptures he onely sheweth by euident testimonies of the Scriptures that Christ dyd not intrude hym selfe but was called of God And if you will haue no man to execute any function in the Churche but him that hath suche speciall and personall testimonies of the scriptures to shewe for him selfe I sée not howe any man can iustifie his calling It is therefore sufficient if his calling be generally conteyned in the Scripture as al lawfull and ordinary functions are euen the offices of Archebishops and Lordebishops c. Chap. 6. the. 12. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 209. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 210. Sect. 1. In the. 16. of Luke verse 25. it is thus written But Abraham sayd Scriptures wrested sonne remember that thou in thy life time receyuedst thy pleasures likevvise Lazarus paynes novve therfore is he comforted and thou arte tormented The riche glutton in his lyfe receyued pleasure and therefore was after in hell tormented Lazarus receyued paynes and after was comforted Therefore Archbishops c. and their offyces come oute of the Popes shoppe These fellowes neyther care for maior minor nor conclusion so they saye something and vaynely paynt their margent with shamefully abusing the scriptures The words of Ezech. Chap. 34. verse 4. be these The vveake haue ye not strengthned the sicke haue ye not healed neyther haue you bound vp the broken c. In the which place the Prophet speaketh agaynst suche Kinges Magistrates and rulers as despise the people of Abuse of offices condemned not the offi es God vse them selues cruelly towards them This dothe aswell condemne Kings Magistrates as it doth Archbishops although in deede it condemneth no office or superioritie but the abuse of the same that is the man abusing the office and not the office it selfe In the. 2. Cor. 1. verse 24. the Apostle speaketh thus vnto them Not that vve haue dominion ouer your fayth but vve are helpers of your ioy for by fayth you stande S. Paule heere sayth that he hathe no authoritie to alter true religion or to rule ouer their consciences but how proueth this that Archbishops c. came out of the Popes shoppe Paule sayth that he had no power ouer the consciences of the Corinthians therfore Archbishops c and their offices were drawne out of the Popes shop If you had beene more studious when you were a Sophister if euer you were any you would haue learned better to frame an argument and haue had better iudgement in the sequele of the same If you had not troubled your margent with these quotations you had lesse vttered your folly So muche of the Canon lawe as is contrarie to the Scriptures Canon lawes not altog ther condemned is Antichristian and diuelishe But there be diuers Canons in it very good and profitable whiche may well be reteyned Good lawes may be borrowed euen of Turkes and heat henishe Idolaters and why not of Papists also I haue tolde you before that the thing it selfe is to be considered not the inuentor if it be good and profitable it may be vsed whosoeuer dyd inuent it Io. Whitgifte Not one worde answered to all this Chap. 6. the. 13. Diuision Admonition And as safely may we by the warrant of Gods worde subscribe to allowe the dominion of the pope vniuersally to reygne ouer the Church of God as of an archebishop ouer a whole prouince or a Lorde bishop ouer a Dioces whych conteyneth many shires and parishes For the dominion that they exercise the Archebishop aboue them and they aboue the rest of their brethren is vnlawfull and expresly forbydden by the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 210. Sect. 2. In that you say that you may as safely by the warrante of Gods worde subscribe to allowe the dominion of the Pope vniuersally to reygne ouer the Church of God as of an Archbishop ouer an whole Prouince c. You expresse but your heate I suppose you thinke not so can the Pope aswell gouerne the whole Churche as the Archbishop one Prouince and a Lord bishop one Dioces Is one king aswell able to gouerne the whole worlde as he may be to gouerne one kingdome Or bicause you can rule one parishe well can you therefore in lyke manner well gouerne twentie parishes Surely an Archbishop may well gouerne one Prouince An archebyshop may gouerne one pro uince but the Pope not all the worlde but the Pope can neuer well gouerne the whole Churche And yet an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole Prouince generally but onely in cases exempted and therfore may do it more easily T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 4. He sayth therefore afterwarde that although one man be not able to be Bishop ouer all the Churche yet he may be Bishop ouer a whole Dioces or of a prouince Nowe if I woulde saye the one is as impossible as the other and for proofe thereof alleage that whiche the philosophers say that as there are no degrees in that whych is infinite so that of thinges whiche are infinite one thyng can not be more infinite than another so there are no degrees in impossibilitie that of thyngs whych are
places of Cyprian before mentioned and now these that follow to the strongest arguments of the Papists Wherfore I confesse that I vse some of the same arguments but not to the same ende nor in like maner For they vse them vntruely agaynst reason the true meaning of the Author I vse them truely according to reason and their proper sense And my vsing of them to the purpose that I doe is the direct answere playne ouerthrow of all the arguments of the Papists It is not therfore good dealing to make the simple beléeue that the same arguments confirme the Pope that confirme the Archbishop when as the application of them to the one is the quite ouerthrowe of the other M. Doctor neuer wēt about to proue that bicause there is one king ouer a realine therfore there may be one Bishop ouer aprouince and in vttering these and suche like vntruthes willingly wittingly as you do you declare of what spirite you are But M. Doctor hath reasoned cleane c ntrarie that it is no good argument to saye that bicause one king may well rule one kingdome therefore he may also well rule the whole world or bicause one Bishop may be ouer one prouince therfore one Pope may be ouer all Christendome These be papisticall reasons these M. Doctor dissolueth con uteth neythrr can you be ignorant of it but malice is blinde God forgiue you for your whole drift is to bring M. Doctor into hatred contempt by such lying meanes but God that séeth the hearts of al will one day detect your déepe dissembled hypocrisie reueale that lūpe of arrogancie ambition which is nowe cloaked with a counterfeit desire of reformation I haue tolde you for what purpose I haue vsed these solutions of M. Caluines whose opinion also I haue shewed before concerning those names and offices Caluine alloweth one to rule ouer the test of ministers In the place to the Philippians now agayne repeated and yet this Replier can abide no repetitions in others though he vse almost nothing else him selfe M. Caluine ouerthroweth your equalitie for thus he sayth Truely I graunt that as the manners and conditiōs of men are there can no order remaine amōg the ministers of the word xcept one do rule ouer the rest And he addeth that he speaketh de singulis corporibus non de totis prouincijs multò autem minùs de orbe vniuerso of seueral bodies not of whole prouinces much lesse of the whole worlde meaning as I suppose suche prouinces as be vnder What is mēte by a body in Caluine diuers gouernours for one prouince in one particular Church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one body and therfore M. Caluin sayth nothing to the cōtrary but that one may praeesse reliquis ministris rule ouer the rest of the ministers in such a prouince Undoubtedly he can not meane that in euery seuerall parishe or towne there should be one qui praesit reliquis bicause the most parishes townes haue but one minister and he that ruleth must haue some to rule ouer If you will say that M. Caluin meaneth of suche ministers as be in cities where there be many and not of the Countrey where there is in euery seuerall towne but one then I answere that it were agaynst reason to bring the ministers of the citie vnder the gouernment of one and to suffer the ministers of the countrey to liue as they list The same causes that require a ruler or gouernour for the one requireth the same also for y e other except you would haue vniformitie in the citie and confusion in the countrey Wherfore M. Caluines meaning is as I haue sayde But you haue subtilly kept in his wordes bothe héere and before bicause you know that they made much more against your equalitie than they doe agaynst the Archbishop It had béene vprighter dealing to haue set downe his words but you wil neyther vse that playnnesse your self nor allow of it in other men M. Caluine vseth two answeres to that obiection of the Papists the first whereof is this that I haue reported in my Answere And surely he would neuer haue vsed y ◠solution caused it to be printed if he had not allowed it thought well of it And not he alone but other of singular religiō zeale haue vsed the same as Hyperius in the place before by me alleaged so doth M. Nowell agaynst Dorman in his first booke Fol. 50. whose words bicause they be wholy to my purpose an euident declaration that such testimonies may lawfully be vsed for the authoritie of the Bishops that are Supra cap. 3. the. 15. diuis vnlawfully abused for the authoritie of the Pope I haue set downe before Wherby also the Reader may vnderstand how we agrée both amōg onr selues to our selues which are desirous to kéepe the peace of the Churche and that these places now vsed in the defense of the Archbishops and Bishops authoritie are no otherwyse applied by vs than they were before any suche controuersie beganne M. Caluine maketh no doubt of the matter but setteth it downe as an apt answer and by him allowed And therfore your obiection of Iacobs two wiues maye serue for a iest but little to the purpose It followeth not that if a man make two answers to one argument he disaloweth the one for they may both be true Touching M. Caluines second answere I haue spoken before and declared wherin that high Priest was a figure of Christ. M. Caluine in that place hath not these words that his iudgement is that as there should be no one ouer all Churches so should there be no one ouer any nation And therefore you kéepe your accustomed maner of falsifying Chap. 6. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 211. Sect. 3. Another of their reasons is this Peter was the chiefe among the Caluin Inst. cap. 8. Apostles therfore there ought to be one chiefe ouer the whole Churche The same M. Caluine in the booke and chapter before rehearsed maketh his owne answere to that argument Vnus inter Apostolos summus fuit nempè quia pauci erant numero Si vnus duodecim hominibus praefuit an proptere sequetur vnum debere centum millibus hominum praefici There vvas one chiefe among the Apostles bicause they vvere but fevve in number but if one man rule ouer tvvelue shall it therefore follovve that one man maye rule ouer an hundreth thousande And a little after Quod inter paucos valet non protenu tr bendum est ad vniuersum terrarū orb m ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit That which is offorce among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole world the which no one man can gouern Euery hiue of Bees hath one chief maister Bee euery companie of Cranes hath one principall guide muste ther be therfore but one Bee one Crane to direct all the
and meaning whiche I giue of them Truely if you shoulde thus goe aboute to make them good in so dooing you shoulde doe your cause no greate good But here you haue wholly omitted the. 15. of Mathewe and the. 16. of Luke The one whereof though it be corrected yet it is in a maner as farre from the purpose as it was before as it maye ap eare in the Additions and alterations c. at the ende of the fyrste booke Your woordes of pleasure whyche folowe bycause they bée but woordes I wholly omitte them as I will also doe in many other places where I shall fynde nothyng else least I make this Booke longer than is conuenient ¶ Whether Christ forbiddeth rule and superioritie vnto the Ministers Tractat. 1. The true interpretation of the twentith of Mathew c Reges gentium c. Chap. 1. The fyrst Diuision Ansvvereto the Admonition Pag. 13. Sect. 3. TO proue that they whose authoritie is forbidden by Christe wil Scripture ested haue their stroke without their fellowe seruauntes c. is quoted The tru exposition of the 20. of Math. c. Math. 20. Math. 23. Marke 10. Luke 22. In the. 20. Math. it is thus written Yeknovve that the Lordes of the Gentiles haue domination ouer them c. In the. 23. of Mathew Be ye not called Rabbi for one is your doctour or teacher to vvit Christe The places in Marke and Luke be al one with that in the 20. of Mathew The conclusion that is gathered of these places is very darke and generali they shoulde haue declared who they be that haue this authoritie forbidden and what the authoritie is Touching these places aileaged in the. 20. of Mathew 10. of Marke 22. of Luke Musculus and dyuers other learned men thinke that they extend not onely to the Apostles and menne of the Clergie as wee call them but to all Christians of what state so euer they be And it is the common opiuion of al wryters that these woordes of Christ doe not condemne superioritie Lordeshippe or any suche lyke authoritie but the ambitious desyre of the same and the tyrannicall vsage thereof T. C. Page 10. Sect. 2. 3. To come therfore vnto the matter out of the places of the. 20. of Mathewe and the. 22. of Luke where our Sauiour Christe vppon occasion of the mordinate request of the sonnes of zebede putteth a difference betweene * This is is a note of your owne deuising the ciuill and ecclesiasticall function he placeth the distinction of them in two poyntes whereof the one is in theyr office the other is in theyr names and titles The distinction of the office he noteth in these wordes the kyngs of the Gentiles haue dominion ouer them and the Princes exercise authoritie ouer them but it shall not be so with you Wherevpon the argument may be thus gathered that wherin the Ciuill magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer dothe not agree to one minister ouer an other But the (a) Petitio principij ciuil magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiastical officer by bearing (b) aequiuoeatio dominion Therfore bearyng dominion doth not agrec to one minister ouer an other Page II Sect. 1. 2. Touching their names and titles he putteth a difference in these wordes And they are called Gratious Lordes but it shall not be so vvith you And so the argument may be framed as before that forasmuche as they are seuered in titles and that to the Ciuill minister doth agree the title of gracious Lordes therefore to the Ecclesiasticall minister the same dothe not agree For as it is fitte that they whose offices carrie an outewarde maiestie and pompe shoulde haue names agreeable to their magnificence so is it meete that those that God hathe remoued from that pompe and outwarde shewe shoulde lykewyse bee remoued from suche swellyng and loftye titles as doe not agree with the simplicitie of the ministerie whiche they exercise And whereas it myghte seeme somewhat vniust that he that hath the greater giftes shoulde not be preferred to those whiche haue lesse our sauiour Christe sheweth that the matter is farre otherwyse For by how muche euery man dothe excell his fellowe in the gifts of the holye Ghost by so muche more he ought to employe himselfe to the benefyte of others so that in a maner he shoulde become as it were theyr seruaunt to doo them good whiche although it be in parte common to the ciuill magistrate with the minister of the worde yet he dothe neuer lette downe hymself so lowe nor giueth his seruice eyther to the Churche or common wealth but that he dothe and ought in that seruice to retayne that dignitie and countenaunce with the markes and notes therof whiche his Princely estate dothe require In the ende he propoundeth hymselfe for example in whome he setteth before theyr eyes a perfecte paterne of the ministe For seeyng he beeyng Lorde tooke vpon hym to be a seruant and beyng Emperour and kyng of heauen and earth was content to want all the glorie shewe of the worlde his ministerie so requiryng it shoulde be great shame for them whiche were his disciples chosen out for the ministerie not to content themselues but to aspire vnto suche offices and dignities as they dreamed of Io. Whitgifte You saye that Christ in that place putteth a difference betweene the Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions and that in two poyntes in theyr office and in their names and titles the distinction of the office you saye he noteth in these wordes The Kings of the Gentiles c. of their names and titles these And they are called gratious Lordes c. Wherevpon you conclude as though all were cocke sure But I pray you tell me whervpon do you gather that Christ maketh any such distinction here eyther of offices or titles In déede he woulde haue a difference bothe betwixte the authoritie of his Disciples and other Christians and the dominion of Heathenishe Princes and also betwixt theyr affections in desiryng the same and therefore dothe he expressely saye The kings of the Gentiles c. If he had ment any suche distinction of offices or titles as you woulde make vs beléeue he would haue sayde The Kings and Princes of the Iewes c. or rather Kings and Princes without any Gouernment not forbidden of Christ but the kinde of gouernment further addition but séeing that he sayth the Kings and Princes of the Gentiles it is manyfest that he forbiddeth not onely to his Disciples but to all Christians such tyrannicall kynd of gouernment as the Gentiles vsed and that ambitious desyre and affection of the same whiche ruled in them For Chryste vseth to call backe those that bée his from errours and corrupt affections by the example of the Gentiles as he doth in the. 6. of Mathew from too much carefulnesse for meate drink such lyke Nam omnia ista gentes exquirunt For after all these things do the
would not gladly sée or here I told you there that Iustinus Martyr speaketh of this matter in his second Apologie and in his booke of questions and that Tertullian speaketh of the same in his booke de corona militis It hathe pleased you in that whiche followeth to Neyther dumbe nor speaking persons cā please T. C. reproue me for translating into my booke other mens opinions and authorities and here though I haue quoted the places where you may find them yet is it also your pleasure to spende your gibing and iesting eloquence vppon me for not translating them Well I will deceyue your expectation and make them speake Iustinus Martyr in his second Apology sayth that they vsed in baptising to call vpon the name of God for suche as were baptised and after baptisme to carrie hym that was baptised Iustin. Apo. 2. to the place where the brethren be gathered togyther to praye bothe for themselues and for hym also that is baptised and in the ende of their prayers that they salute one another with a kisse Likewise he there saythe that when they celebrated the Ibidem Lordes supper there was vsed certaine prayers and thankesgyuing to the whiche the people sayde Amen Also that the Deacons did gyue to the people the bread and the cuppe and carrie them lykewise to suche as were absent In his booke of questions Iustin. lib. quae he sheweth howe that singing was vsed in the Churche and commendeth it and that they vsed not to kneele at prayers on the Sunday in token of the resurrection Dyuers other suche ceremonies and orders dothe he recite vsed in hys tyme not prescribed by the worde of God but appoynted by the Church whereof some now be abrogated bycause they be not so fitte for this time as they were for that time Irenaeus speaketh very playnelye in that Epistle whyche he writte to Irenaeus Uictor Byshoppe of Rome whereof also Eusebius maketh mention lib. 5. cap. 25. 26. In that Epistle he declareth the diuersitie of diuers Churches for the daye of Easter the tyme of fasting and such like whiche plainely argueth that the scripture hath not determined all things but left muche to the disposition of the Church Tertullian in his booke aduersus Praxean saythe that the Churche then vsed tern Tertul. Idem mersione in baptismo thirst dipping in baptisme And in his booke de corona militis although he recite some thinges whiche in tyme grew to be superstitious yet dothe he there playnely declare what his opinion is in this matter he reciteth diuers customs of the Churche then vsed whereof there is no mention in the scriptures he declareth that those whiche were to be baptised must firste professe that they renounced the Deuill his pomp and his Angels and that then they were thrice dipt in the water amplius aliquid respondentes quam dominus in Euangelio determinauit answering somewhat more than the Lorde hath determined in the gospell Likewise he sheweth that the sacrament of the supper which the Lord celebrated at supper and commaunded to all was then celebrated in the morning and ministred only by those that be the chiefe And in the end he sayth barum aliarum buiusmodi disciplinarum si legem expostules scripturarum nullam inuenies c. of these and such like orders if thou shouldest require a law out of the scriptures thou shalt finde none and a litle after he addeth Annon putas omni fideli licere concipere constituere duntaxat quod Deo congruat quod disciplinae conducat quod Saluti proficiat dicente domino Cur autem non a vobis ipsis quod iustum est iudicatis doest thou not thinke that it is lawfull for euery faithfull man to conceiue and appoynte at the least that which agreeth to God whiche is conuenient for discipline whiche is profitable vnto saluation seeing the Lord sayth why do you not of your selues iudge that that is right And in his booke De virginibus Veland He hath these manifest words Regula Idem quidem fidei vna omninò est sola immobilis irreformabilis credendi scilicet in Deum vnicum ☞ omnipotentem c. Hac lege fidei manente caetera iam disciplinae conuersationis admittunt nouitatem correctionis operante scilicet proficiente vsque in fiuem gratia Dei There is only one rule of faith which alone is immoueable and not to be altered to witte to beleeue in one God the omnipotent creator of the worlde and in his sonne Iesus Christe borne of the Virgine Mary crucifyed vnder Pontius Pilate risen the thirde day from the dead receyued into Heauen sitting nowe at the righte hande of the father and shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead by resurrection of the fleshe this lawe of faithe remayning the other thynges of disciplyne and trade of lyfe do admitte alteration of amendmente the grace of GOD woorking and profiting too the ende Cyprian Lib. 10. Epist. 12. mentioneth certaine rites about Baptisme no where spoken of in the Scriptures and Lib. 4. Epist. 6. he sheweth it to haue bene the maner of the Church then to receiue the Communion euery day which the Scripture doth not commaunde Cyprian Idem Thus you sée that these Doctors be not dumbe but can speake sufficiently in that matter for the which they are alleaged And leaste you should cauill bycause I saye that others also be of the same Iudgement recyting onely Saynte Augustyne I haue caused Ambrose Ierome and Basill to beare wytnesse in the same matter The wordes of Ambrose be these After that Churches were appoynted in euery place Ambrose in Ephe. and offices ordayned the matter beganne otherwyse to be ordered c. And after that he had declared the difference betwixte the Apostolicall Churche and the Churche in hys tyme touchyng Ceremonyes and gouernmente he concludeth thus Therefore ☜ doe not the writyngs of the Apostles in all respectes agree wyth the order which is now in the Churche bycause these were written in the firste beginnings Ierome writing ad Ierome Lucinium and answering hys questions touchyng fastyng on the Sabboth daye and dayly receyuyng the Communion sayth on this sorte sed ego illud te breuiter admonendum puto traditiones ecclesiasticas presertim quae fidei non officiant ita obseruandas vt à maioribus traditae sunt Nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti But this thyng I thinke meete briefely to admonishe thee of that the Ecclesiasticall traditions namely suche as doe not hynder faythe are so to be obserued as they are delyuered of oure elders neyther is the custome of one to be ouerthrowne with the contrarie custome of others Basill in hys 63. Epistle written to the Ministers of Neocaesaria recyteth the manners Basill and Customes aboute publike prayers and singing of Psalmes then vsed in the Churche and there playnely declareth what hys iudgemente is touchyng thys
Churche to the which the whole realme hath consented Can. apost 33. The. 33. Canon of the Apostles quoted in the margent is this Episcopos singularum gentium scire conuenit quis inter eos primus babeatur quem velut existiment c. It behoueth the Bishops of euery prouince to know who is chiefe among thē whom they must esteeme as their head and do nothing without his knowledge saue such things only as pertayne to their owne parish and villages which are vnder it neyther shall he do any thing without the knowledge of all For so shall vnitie be kept and God shall be glorified through Christe in the holy Ghost What haue you gotten by this Canon you see here manifestly that in euery prouince or nation there must be one chiefe Bishop that is Archbishop to whom the rest muste submitte themselues and do nothing without his knowledge This is asmuch as I require And if this Canon was made by the Apostles wherof you seeme not to doubte then is the name and authoritie of an Archbishop of greater antiquitie than you would gladly haue it and the reason and saying of S. Ierome most true Both of this Canon and of the Canon of the councell of Antioch confirming it I haue spoken before Your Passim in the margent if it be meant of such like plac s as this I graunt it but if of any other popular or Aristocraticall state and kinde of gouernment or to the improuing of the office and authoritie of an Archbishop it will fall out to be nusquam You say that it appeareth in the decretalls themselues that this kinde of gouernment hath bene the wellspryng of most horrible schisme Shew one place why are you not ashamed to vtter manifest vntruthes Shew one sentence there tending to that ende I haue recited some Canons out of that place and I haue shewed the entent of Gratian both in them and in the rest They all signifie that an Archbyshop may not do any thing of his owne authoritie without the consent of the other Byshops which no man denieth and this is the whole scope of that question Our peace is in truth and due obedience we haue the true doctrine of the worde of God and the right administration of the Sacramentes and therefore to make contention in this Church and to disturbe the quietnes and peate cannot be but mere schismaticall I will say no worse Zuinglius in his Ecclesiastes sayth that the Anabaptistes went aboute to defende their contentions then after the same manner that you do yours nowe But I answere you as he answered them your contention is not agaynst Infidels Papists and such like but agaynst the faythfull agaynst the true professors of the Gospell and in the Church of Christe and therefore as it is of it selfe wicked so is it the cause of contempt disobedience and much other vngodlinesse And the two flintstones may be in such time and place striken togither that the sparkes of fire which commeth from them may consume and burne the whole citie and countrie too And surely he is but a mad man that will smite fire to light a candle to sée by at noone day when the sunne shineth most clearely Chap. 3. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 4. If therefore superioritie and domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men frō schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to keepe them togither in errour and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted than many this power of one bringeth as great incōmoditie in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Io. Whitgifte This is as though you should saye that if a Monarchie be an excellent kynde of gouernment and in déede the best when the lawes rule and not man as Aristotle sayth then also is it the worste when affection ruleth and not the lawe which is true for that is the worst state of gouernment which is opposed to the beste But if you will therefore conclude that a Monarchie is not the best state your argument hath no reason in it euen so is it in the gouernment of the Churche if the chéefe gouernour thereof should follow his owne appetite and be ruled by his priuate affections but it is farre otherwise when he ruleth according to the lawes wherevnto he himselfe is subiect Chap. 3. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag 81. Sect. 4. Morouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnitie in the Church of England that one Archbishop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall Churche there should be one Archbishop or Byshop ouer all and the like necessitie of the byshop ouer A popish reason all Christendome as of the byshop of all England vnlesse peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall Church than ouer the Church of England for as much as it is more necessarie that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersall Church than in the particular church of England Io. Whitgifte This is the reason of the Papistes for the Popes supremacie and you haue borowed The reasons serue not for the Pope that serue for the Archbishop Caluine it from them Wherefore I will answere you as M. Caluine answereth them in his Institutions Cap. 8. Sect. 95. That which is profitable in one nation cannot by any reason be extended to the whole worlde for there is great difference betwixt the whole world and one nation And a little after it is euen as though a man should affirme that the whole world may be gouerned by one King bycause one fielde or towne hath but one ruler or Mayster And agayne that which is of force among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole worlde to the gouernment whereof no one man is sufficient M. Nowell also answereth Dorman making the same reason that you doe in these M. Nowell lib. 3. fol. 321. woordes To your third question sayeth he speaking to Dorman the lewdest of all why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene the Pope and the reste of the Byshops of Christendome that is betweene the Archbishop and the other Bishops of the prouince I answere you might as well aske why the same proportion may not be kepte betweene one Emperour of all the worlde and all the Princes of the worlde to be vnder him that is betweene the King of one realme and his Lordes vnder him The reason that the same proportion can not be kept is first bycause there is no lyke proportion at all betweene the abilitie of mans witte and power being but weake to gouerne one prouince and his abilitie to gouerne the whole Churche and all Churches throughout the worlde which no one man can haue knowledge of much lesse can haue abilitie to rule them Secondly you can bring no
Bishop be ouer one diocesse one rchbishop ouer one Prouince Wherfore I conclude thus It is necessary y t among the cler ie some should be in authoritie ouer the rest and therfore there may be both Archbishops Bishops but I know you wil answer y t there may be gouernment without these degrées then say I vnto you againe stand not so much in your owne c ceyt this order is most auncient in the Church it is confirmed by the best and noblest Councels it is allowed by the best learned fathers it hath the pattern from the practise of the Apostles a l whiche hath bin shewed before it is most méet for this state and kingdome and therfore be no wilful in a new deuise the triall wherof was neuer as yet the maner wherof is vnknown to your selfe and the end no doubt mere confusion Your welfauoured and 〈◊〉 speeches together with your accustomed cōtempt I omit here as I doe in other places Chap. 3. the. 41. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 3. The moste therfore that he can conclude of this for the ministerie is that there must be minister that shall rule and people that shall be obedient and hereby he can 1. of proue that ther should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiasticall gouernours vnlesse he wyl say peraduenture that as there are vnder magistrates and a kyng aboue them all so there shoulde be vnder ministers and one minister aboue all * But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common Note this suspicious speache of the kinde of gouernment wealth that there should be one ouer all for that there are other good common wealthes wherin many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if bicause there is one kyng in a lande aboue all he wil conclude there should be one Archbishop ouer all I say as I haue sayd that it is not against any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the worlde and yet I thinke M. Doctor wyll not say that there maye be one Archebishop ouer all the worlde Io. Whitgifte Why there ought to be superioritie among ministers as well as other The gouernmente of the churche in a Christi n cōmon wealth oughte to bee according to the forme ther in vsed Yes I wil cōclude that ther ought to be degrées of superioritie amōg y e ministers also bicause they labour of imperfections as wel as other mē do especally of pride arrogancie vainglorie which ingender schismes here 's es contentions as the examples of all times and ages euen from the Apostles to this time declare I am persuaded y t the externall gouernment of the church vnder a christiā Magistrate must be according to the kinde forme of the gouernment vsed in the cōmon wealth else how can you make the Prince supreme gouernour of all states causes ecclesiastical wil you so deuide the gouernment of y e Churche from the gouernment of the cōmon wealth that the one being a monarchie the other must be a Democratie or an Aristocratie this were to deuide one realme into two and to spoyls the Prince of the one halfe of hir iurisdiction and authoritie If you will therefore haue the Quéene of Englande rule as Monarche ouer all hir dominions then muste you also giue her leaue to vse one kinde and forme of gouernment in all and euery parte of the same and so to gouerne the Church in Ecclesiasticall affaires as she doth the common wealth in ciuile But you say that I must remember that it is not necessarie in a common welth that there T. C. speaketh suspiciously of gouernment should be one ouer all I say that you must remember that in this cōmon wealth it is necessarie y t one shuld be ouer al except you wil trāsform aswel y e state of y e kingdom as you would of y e church which is not vnlike to be your meaning for not long after you adde that the common wealth must be stamed a cording to y e church as the hangyngs to the house the gouernmēt therof w t her gouernment c. not contrary meaning y t the gouernmēt of the cōmon wealth ought not to be monarchical but either democratical or Aristocratical bicause as you say the gouernment of the Church ought to be such What this in time wil bréed in this common wealth especially when it cōmeth to the vnderstanding of the people who naturally are so desirous of innouations I referre it to the iudgement of those that can and ought best to consider it The vnlike linesse that is betwixt one Cesar being ouer all the world of one archbishop being ouer all the world I haue shewed before they be most vnlike yet this is but a friuolous vaine supposition M. Caluin in his Inst. cap. 8. sect 96. doth say that it is absurdissimum most absurd Chap. 3. the 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 71. Sect. 4. It is not to be denied but that ther is an equalitie of al ministers of Equalitie among ministers touching minist rie gods word quoad ministeriū touching the ministerie for they haue allike power to preach the word to minister the sacraments that is to say the word preached or the sacramēts ministred is as effectual in one in respect of the ministerie as it is in an other But quoad ordinem politiam touching order gouernment ther always hath bin must be degrees and superioritie among them For the churche of God is not a cōfused congregation but ruled directed aswel by discipline policie in matters of regimēt as by the word of God in matters of faith T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe M. Doctor cōmeth to his olde hole where he would fayn hide himself and with him all the ambition tyrannie excesse of authorttie which is ioyned with these functions of Archebishop and bishop as they are now vsed this his hole is that al the ministers are equall with bishops Archbishops as touching the ministerie o the word sacramentes but not as touching policie gouernment The Papists vse the very self same (a) This distinction is allowed of those that be sarre from Papistrie distinction for the maintenance of the Popes tyrannie and ambition and other their hierarchie M. Doctor hath put out the mark concealed the name of the Papists so with a little change of wordes as it were with certayn newe colours he would deceyue vs. For the Papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge Prieste hathe as greate authoritie to sacrifyce and offer for the quycke and the deade and to minister the Sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the Bishoppe is aboue a Prieste the Archebishoppe aboue a bishop and the Pope aboue them all But I haue (b) You haue no yet declared 〈◊〉
impossible one thyng should be more impossible than another If I shoulde thus reason I thynke I should put you to some payne But I wyll not drawe the reader to suche thorny and subtyll questions it is inough for vs that the one and the other be impossible although one should be more impossible than the other And that it is impossible for one man to be Bishop ouer a whole prouince or ouer a whole Dioces I leaue it to be considered of that whych is before sayde in the description of the offyce of a Byshop pastor or minister where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the Bishop in hys Churche Io. Whitgifte In so saying I say but as other learned men haue sayd and especially M. Caluine in the place afterwarde alleaged in my answere and as the practise of the Churche hath béene in the best state and vnder the best Bishops as it may appeare by that which hath béene hitherto spoken Your Philosophicall argument is sone answered without any great payne For to gouerne one Prouince in that maner and forme that is required of an Archbishop is neyther infinite nor impossible But it is great lack of iudgement to thinke that bicause one man can not well gouerne the whole world therfore he can not well gouerne a prouince or dioces I haue shewed the practise of the Churche to be contrarie in the Apostles tyme and since their time Chap. 6. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 101. Sect. 1. As a Prince may rule a whole Realme suche as Fraunce or Englande (*) This is absurdissimum a M. Caluine 〈◊〉 Instit. cap. 8. sect 92. so may he rule the whole worlde by officers and Magistrates appoynted vnderneathe him And there haue beene diu rs Princes which haue had as many landes vnder their power as the Pope hath had Churches and althoughe it be somewhat inconuenient yet I knowe not why they mighte not so haue comming lawfully by them Nowe I woulde gladly heare whether you would say the same of a Bishop and if you dare not then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouernment of a prince ouer a lande to proue that a Archbishop may be ouer an whole prouince M. Doctor dare boldly say that there may be one Bishop ouer a whole prouince but he dare not saye that there may be a bishop ouer the whole Churche But what better warrant for the one than for the other Agayne (a) If the skye fall c. if the whole Churche be in one prouince or in one realme whiche hathe beene and is (b) Yes surely as the state is nowe not impossible to be agayne if there may be nowe one bishop ouer a realme or prouince then there may be one bishop ouer all the Churche so that in trauelling with an Archbishop he hathe brought foorth a Pope Io. Whitgifte The selfe same reason you had before and I answere it nowe as I did then The Supra cap. 3. diuis 31. 32. 33. causes by me there alleaged be sufficient to proue the difference betwixt the gouernment of a Prince and the gouernment of a Bishop And yet no man will denie but that one Prince shall better be able to gouerne one kingdome than the whole world And to affirme that the whole worlde may be conteyned in one Monarchie learned men saye is multis modis absurdissimum In diuers respectes moste absurde I bring the Cal. Inst. cap. 8. Sect. 92. example of a King bicause other writers vse the like examples in the like matter to confute suche vnlikely reasons and namely M. Caluine in the words following That which M. Doctor affirmeth of one bishop ouer one whole prouince and of one Byshop ouer the whole worlde no man will denie A warrant for the one are the examples of Timothie and Titus and the continuall practise of the Churche without contradiction in the best tymes but there is no warrant for the other of any credite or sufficience béeing onely in the moste corrupt tyme of the Churche and contrarie to all former examples and Canons You say if the whole Churche be in one prouince c. I say that if the skie fall you may catche larkes as the common prruerbe is Moreouer if it were possible so to be as nowe it is not then it were no absurditie the Bishop of that Prouince still to remayne Bishop of the same But what moueth you to suche straunge suppositions The replyers if turned vpon him self I might aswell say if the whole Churche were in one Citie or Towne or Parishe as it was in Ierusalem after Christes ascention and one Bishop or Pastor might be ouer that citie or towne or parishe then one Bishop or Pastor shoulde be ouer the The Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince nowe whole Churche and so you likewise in trauelling with a pastor to be in one Churche at the length bring foorth a Pope But doe you not knowe that the Churche of Christ is dispersed throughout the whole worlde and can not nowe be shut vp in one kingdome muche lesse in one prouince excepte you will become Donatistes He that is not wilfully blinde may sée into what streights you are driuen when you are constreyned to vtter suche impossibilities for reasons Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 101. Sect. 2. But he sayth that an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole pro ince generally but in cases exempted and so may doe it more easily But he shoulde haue remembred that he assigned before the offices of Archbishop and bishop to be in all those things whiche other ministers are and that beside those offices he giueth them particular charges So that where the office of the minister is but to preache pray and minister the sacraments in his parishe the office of archebishop and bishop is to doe the same and more too in the whole prouince or dioces And so it followeth that it is easier for a minister to discharge his duetie in his parishe than for an archebyshop or bishop to discharge their dueties in any one parish of their prouince or dioces for they haue in euery parishe more to doe and greater charge than the minister of the parishe hath then much lesse are they able to doe their dueties in all the parishes of their prouinces or dioces Io. Whitgifte I speake of the office of gouernment and so be my words Euery particular parish hath a particular pastor to preache pray and mynister the sacraments The Bishop hath to procure so much as lyeth in him that all things be done in his Dioces according to the lawes orders of the Church The Archbishop hath not only to sée that y e Bishops do their duties but to helpe thē in reforming that which by thēselues they cannot do The office of preaching they exercise where when they sée it most conuenient The whole charge of preaching of gouerning resteth neyther vpon the
by the ciuill magistrate I graunt the ministers haue also to punish vice for as the ciuill magistrates punishe lighter faultes with some penaltie of monie or losse of member so the church and the minister especially with the church hath to punishe faultes by reprehensions and rebukes And as the ciuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death so the minister with other which haue interest hath with y e sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious and to cut them from the churche as the other doth from the common wealth And if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishments why should it not be a help vnto the Magistrates office that he should excommunicate and do other thinges perteyning to the Ecclesiasticall discipline Io. Whitgifte In what woordes doth M. Caluine confute it or by what reason you cut of the matter very shorte in that booke and chapt of his Instit. which you haue quoted in the margent there is no such reason either alleaged or confuted Only in the. 9. Section he speaketh agaynst the temporall dominion of the Popish Bishops whiche deriue their excessiue power not from the ciuill Magistrate but fcō the Pope cloking it with this pretence that it is an ornament and beutie to the kingdome of Christ which is far from any thing alleaged by me why it is conuenient that our Bishops haue ciuill authoritie committed vnto them I would gladly heare a reason either of the Scripture or any other authenticall It is not so lawfull for the Prince to preach c. as for a minister to vse corporall punishment wryter why it should be as lawfull for a ciuill Magistrate to preache minister the Sacraments and excōmunicate as for the Ecclesiasticall minister to vse corporall punishment it was lawfull for Samuell to kill Agag being the office of Saule but it was not lawfull for Saule to offer vp sacrifices that being the office of Samuell The office and function of a mynister is not in his owne power to commit to whom he list but the office of the ciuill Magistrate may be cōmitted to whom soeuer it shal 1. Sam. 15. please him best to like of and to thinke most fitte for gouernment 1. Sam. 3. True it is that excōmunication is an Ecclesiastical censure which the mynister Excommunication not the only punishment vsed in the Church Gualter may exercise if the state of the Church will beare it for reprehension is a discipline lawfull for euery Christian to vse but it is not the onely censure for the ciuill magistrate may appoynt other as shall be to the state of the Church moste conuenient You know what M. Gualter sayeth 1. Cor. 5. As the Romaine Bishops vpon this place and such like haue grounded their excommunication which is the most effectuall instrument of their tyrannie whereby they haue cruelly vexed not onely priuate men but also Kinges and Emperours and haue bene the causes of ciuill warres and sedition euen so the Anabaptists whilest they perswade themselues that there can be no discipline without excōmunication they trouble the churches euery where and make thēselues laughing stockes to all the world c. Let euery church follovve that kinde of discipline vvhich is most meete for the countrie vvherein they liue and vvhich may be moste commodious in respect of time and place and let no man here rashly prescribe vnto an other or seeke to binde all men to one and the same forme Of old time there hath bene other kinde of punishments than either reprehensiōs or excōmunication as it may appeare euen in that Canon attributed to the Apostles which you haue before rehearsed where the punishment appoynted is depriuation as it is also in the most of the other Canons and in diuerse other councels You say that if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he should meddle with the ciuill punishmēts why should it not be a helpe to the magistrates office that he should excommunicate c. The answere is soone made The Magistrate may do that by corporall punishment that the minister can not do by Ecclesiasticall discipline neither is there any man so desperate whom the magistrate by his authoritie may not brydle but such is y e time now that fewe regarde the greatest censures of the Church Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. And whereas M. Doctor sayeth they may not be husband men craftes men c. and yet may haue ciuill offices I thinke far otherwise that although neyther be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable than the other For seing after the ministerie of the worde there is no calling vnder the sunne weightier which requireth greater exercise of the minde than the office-of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauie burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weight of this burthen to laye some lighter charge of exercising a handy crafte than to breake his backe with the charge of a ciuill Magistrate Io. Whitgifte These wdrldly affayres of husbandrie occupations c. must néedes withdrawe him from his booke so make him more vnapt to do his dutie and they be not at all incident to his office nor méete for his calling but the Ciuill offices that I speake of be both méete for his calling perteyning to discipline and helpes to his office function as I haue sayde wherefore they be so farre from breaking his backe that they make the rest of his burthen a great deale the easier Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 3. And whereas in the pollicie of M. Doctor it seemeth a furtherance to the Gospell to ioyne these togither which was also the pollicie of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath seemed farre otherwise which I doubt not did therfore separate the ministerie from this pompe which is commendable in the ciuill magistrate least the efficacie and power of the simplicitie of the worde of God and of the ministerie should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell due vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these glorious shewes And least whilest the Minister haue the word in one hande and the swordem the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences ▪ of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubte with themselues whether these are and outwarde shewe of the minister caried some stroke with them in beleuing the worde Io. Whitgifte One of your reasons conteyned in this place in effect is this If ministers shoulde enioy ciuill functions men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto these shewes but that ought they not to do therefore c. I denie your Maior as a fonde and vaine imagination