the word are you your selues as is before shewed that euery one thinketh that he hath the best part as you say For mens thoughtes we referre to his knowledge that is Scrutâtor cordium remum Also you affirme that man is plaged with such a miserye and burthen but we rather say oh miserable man out of whose corrupt nature springeth such presumption and wickednes to be vnder the obedience of the Loue of Christ Iesus is our whole care and studyâ to him onely we cleaue on him we call vpon his mercy we depend and carefully seeke indeuour to be obedient to his will for he is our hope our anker hold our mercy seate our only coÌfort in all distresse of mind our phisitioÌ in sicknes our gouernour in health our peacemaker the onely purchaser of our health and saluatioÌ he is all in all with vs and wée enioy all in all by him and through him and if this sayth were also planted in you then would your HN. be banished out of your hartes and your perfection would soone quaile and in humilitye of spirite you would âith vâ fall downe before this méeke Lambe Christ Iesus and say peccauimus cum patribus nostris c. We haue sinned with our Fathers without which Christ no flesh that is no creature liuing is iustified in his fathers sight and Christ his death is proper to none nor bâlongeth to none but sinners and such aâ feele sinne or are laden with sinnes What shall then become of you Iusticiaryes with your perfite state which sinne not to follow brotherly loue is also to be wished both in you and vs and I pray you doe euen the same theÌ shall you not séeke out y simple people whose capaciti is lyke vnto ware which will easely receiue any print or marke seek not with your fly and suttle perswasions to seduce theÌ with your corrupt doctrine ⪠vnder preâence that you seeke onely the godly lyfe which Christians should follow whereas in déede you séeke to leade theÌ from Christ to HN. from the âomfort of the holy scriptures which sheweth how mercy is offred to all penitent sinnârs vnto a perfite state of lyfe which must be attained in this world which neuer any Christ Iesus except could attayne vnto and so you corruptly leade them away from all comfort in Christ Therefore we will not let to desire the Lord in mercy to preserue his childreÌ from your infected poyson Vitel. THerfore speketh the lord through his Prophet Zacâary Iudge righteously and let euery one shew goodnes and mercifulnes vnto his brother and let no man deale vnrightly with another nor with the widowes fatherles sââangers and poore And let no man imagine any euill against his brother in his haât but alas they will not haue ââgard hereupon but âuâne theâ backs saith the Lord vnto me and stop their eares that they heare not and harden their haââes as hard as a diamont For that they should not be obediât to the law the word which the lord sendeth in his spirite through his prophets Aunswere TOuching the saying of âachary we wish the very same that euery one shew mercy and deale rightly with his brother with the widow and fatherles strangers and poore c. But can you alleadge these places haue no regard to folow the exhortatioÌ your selues how rightly do you deale with your brethren that being required to vtter your faith which you hold you deal suttelly and deceitfully with such as with well vnto you and seeke your health and delyuery from error Now regard you that no man imagine euill in his hart against his brother when as you call vs free ânes Libertiâes and wicked blasphemers c. Who turnes their backs who stoppes their âares who harden their harts Haue not you turned from Christ to HN Haue not you stopt your eares against all holesome admonition which the holy Ghost hath plentifully in the holy scriptures set forth and only bent your harts vpon the bookes and wrytyngs of HN Haue you not hardened your harts and bent your faces against a manifest truth and placed HN. a prophet priest by whoÌ God wil receiue all vnto mercy On whom may this propheticall speach or exhortation be better applyed then vpon your selues and yet will not I goe about to excuse my selfe and others that we do therein what is required but only let y world see that these men of the Family cry out and apply the sayings of the Prophets against vs and for themselues they suâpose it belongeth not to them to take waâning thereby in so perfecte a state do they remaine Vitell. O God prepare the harts of the people to the lowlynâssâ that they might stand mindeâ in humility to the Loue and loue the comming of thy Christ in his lordlânes through whom the whol earth shal be âudged with righteousnes which shall moue all might and violence and bring it vnder his obedience and render vnto thee O almighty God the kingdom all power and glory to the end that thou mayest be all in all O god geue this into the harts of the gouernors that they may see it And illuminate all kinges princes Lords and potentates with thy godly wisdome that they may feare thy holy name stand submitted vnto thy Loue and her seruice and might turne them from all violence and misuse and that the world may be inhabited to thy praise in the Loue and in all righteousnes and that all men in true repentance for their sinnes might be turned vnto thee And the horrible plagues of vngodlynes which are come ouer the world for their sinâes cause cease and haue an end Answere THis part coÌtaineth a prayer which this man maketh for all that they might staâd minded in humility to the loue as I haue often complayned of the confounding this word Loue and the signification therof so here I will tâke it in y best part to signifie God to whom we craue continually his grace to huÌâle our harts that we may euer standâ obedyent to his will and that we may look for that ioyfull coÌming of Christ Iesus whose appearing shal be to the comfort of his elect to their surpassing ioy but as a terrible iudge to the wicked despisers of his mercy offered and to such as haue sât vp in their harts any other besides him or follow any other but him or delite in any other sauing hâm No violence can resist him no strength preuail with him but as you say all shall be brought vnâer his obâdâence âhere as you pray that all kings princes c. may âeaâe thy holy name and stand submitted to thy loue âere is loue takeÌ in another sence therfore you intricatly vse this word Loue wherby your meaning can not easily be found out For here loue and her seruice is meant such doctrine and seruice âs you teach which you wiâh all princes were partakers of if your doctrine were a truth in dââde then were your prayer
illuminate Elders in the Family sinne not you deny it not but wish y I knew what I sayd you say that they preuayl with God ouer sinne But we deny that any preuayle with God ouer sin otherwise then in the person of Christ. And herein you teach false docârine to the people For your wordes are false that we preuaile with God and Christ ouer sinne Nay we affirme that we preuaile with God by Christ which accepteth vs for his sake and although you acknowledge neuer so much that this is brought to passe by Christ in vs yet we tell you playne that it standeth not with his good will and pleasure so to do but that contynually we should be petitioners to him for grace to keep vnder sinne that sinne raigne not in vs that sinne beare not rule in vs or haue dominion ouer vs as the Scriptures vse to spâake but that we preuayle against sinne so that we extinguish it in our own persons It is a doctrine of Sathan and not froÌ the lord In this and the like doctrine doth your Author and you shew a manifest pâoofe whence your errors are suckt euen from the Pope who teacheth that we may fulfill the law If it be so then may we be righteous by it and haue no neede of christ Such hereticall and imptous doctrine contrary to the scriptures you teach and therfore your Author and you worthely despysed The Pope in his doctrine of Opera superââ ãâã and you with your doctrine of perfection to be wrought in vs in this life do so extenuat the death and passion of our Lord and Sauyour Christ that the poore oppressed burthened sinner loaden and âroning vnder the burthen of sinne can finde smal comfort Therfore the church of christ grounded vpon the Prophetes and Apostles Christ Iesus being the chiefe corner stone of this foundation doubt not in truth and humilitie of spirite to acknowledge still iâ vs while we are in this life a battaile or combat against sinne to striue to fight but not to conquere to tryumph or to preuayle but by faith in Christ in whose person we conquere we tryumph and we preuayle So that to be ouercome or be subdued vnder sin we cannot because we haue a valiant and most victorious conqueror who still imputeth his conquest and victory ours yet so as sinne and the motions therof still remayn in âs to our great exercise that feeling our wââknes our want and our need we âight in our necessitye haue recââse vnto our Captayn our Sauyour and delyuerer But that we in our persons should pâeuayle ãâã sinne as you affirmed is false wicked and damnable doctrine but such fauour hath falsed with you that you greedely embrace this as though Christ or his Apostles had taught it whereas it is against all the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and against all examples in the scriptures David sayth ãâ¦ã S. Paul sayth Christ Iesus came into y world to saue sinners of y which number I am the greatest if doing our best we must acknowledge our selues vnprofitable seruauntes where is become your doctrine of perfection neuer heard of in Christ his Church our âumayne state and condition is so lifted vp and stast with pride by your doctrine of perfection that penitent sinners find smal grace in whom you impute scarce hope of saluation except they attayne the perfection on whome shall Christ hys death take place to whome shal the vertue thereof extend if none shal be saued but such as be perfect in whome no sinne resteth or remayneth you take away all comfort from sinners to whome the Gospell belongeth and our onely comfort in distresse the effect wherof by this your doctrine is denied miserably do you herein deceaue your setuâs and other They that haue pleasure in sinnâ are seruaunts to sinne as you affirme but to haue pleasure in sinne that sinn raygne in vs or haue dominion ouer vs continually we affirme that they are markeâ and tokens not of the children of good but contrary yet we doubt not to âââirme the remnants the motions lustâ and roÌcupiscence incident to our frayle nature still to lurke in our bodyes notwithstanding we be in the fauour with God and made righteous by Christ his death and passion for so it standeth with his good wil and pleasure that his grace should be made perfect through our weaknes Therefore you with your doctrine of perfection doe extenuate his death as much as in you lyeth We are not in humbling our selues enemies vnto y lord but you by exalting your selues except ye repent will be taken enemies both to God and all good men Your schollers in the Family doe blame vs in their wrytings affirme that we in confessing our imperfections ⪠and sinnes which contynually doe assault vs dayly and hourely We are as they say ⪠Aduocates for sinue and you teaching a perfection are mainteners of righteousnes but more truely may it be sayd of you that you with your perfection are enemies to y grace of God manifest to vs by Christ Iesuâ our Lord and do thereby blaspheme as much as in you lyeth the glory of hys passion and death appropriate only to sinners you may with the pharasies brag of your perfection and obseruation of the law but we comfort ourselues with these and the lyke sayings of holy Scripture Christ Iesus came into the world to saue sinners So God loued the world that he gaue his onely begotteÌ sonne c Behold the lambe of God which taketh away the sinnes of the world c. Vitell. FArther you say they may ioyne with any congregatioÌ or Church and liue vnder the obedience of any Maiestrâte It is true we are obedient vnto all Maiestrates where wee dwell for âhe peaces cause and obserue their politick ordinances which are to a good protectioÌ of their subiectes ââd the land but we consent not vnto any thing which is agaynst God or hys commaundements also we accompâ none vngodly but such aâ obstiâatly blaspheme the Lord hys ordiââunces and despise his most holy seruice of loue although they be ignoraunt of the waye vnto lyfe For we confesse that there is no man righteousnes vntill the Lord deliuer hym from his vnrighteousnesse and through hys Christ make hym righteous and then may he say that the Lord is hys righteousnes Aunswere THat you may ioyne with any Church c. I did affirme beyng led by many reasons so to do for you perswaded many in Queene Maries raigne to go to Masse your brethren in Flaunders which are of your Family do the lyke you also with vs come to Church and ioyne with vs in praier in âeuing thanks in heâring the worde preached c. Yet hauâ you priuate conuântickles and meetings forbidden by the law wherin you shewe not your obedience to the Maiestrates aâ you affirme but your wilfull stubburnes and frowardnes you ioyne with all to wyne all but more iustly you flatter
Lord. Answere I Am offended in zeale of Gods ãâã agaynst your generall doctrine wheâof this is a part that none may teach the truth but y illuminat âlders Your HN. further sayth Therefore it is assuredly all false and lyes seducing and deâeitfull what the vngodded or vnilluminate men out of the imagination or riches of theire own knowledge out âf their learnednes of the scriptures bâing forth institute prâach and teaâh c. Now looke wel and behold whether HN. condemne not all others but his illumined Elders who are Godded with God c. which in dâede I haue rightly tearmeâ proud speaches such as neuer any godly wryter in Christ his church durst euer speake or write âou would colour the wordes by the ducth tongue saying they be not straÌge speches in that language but certainly a strange and monsterous doctrine is therby taught and far disagreeing from the written word and far ânbeseeming any Christian. And here if I should dilate what a meaning you haue in these wordes Godded with God I should increase this treatise ouer much yet I will somewhat touch it as you and your Author haue expressed it in wryting I will vse your own speach as followeth See and marke my beloued in the beginning when God had made all things well thâ was the Lord one Lord of his kingdome and one God of his worke and there was also no more but one God and one man and they were one ⪠and had in all one ordeâ beinâ ⪠ând nature For God was all that the man was and the mâ was all that God wââ Thus monstrously and blasphemously you haue taught god and man to be one in nature now compare this godhead with God or incorporated to God and easily it is perceiued that you meane God and man to be one this were worthye to be buryed in silence but that now the patrons defeÌd such blasphemies it is tyme to cleare the Church of Christ that such proude and Luciferian voyces shoulde not bee heard or once named yet this man will proue that HN. cannot erre and none that know the truth can condeÌne HN. It is a pitiful thing that men hauing anye sence or feeling of God or godlines should so vaynely wryte or publish to y world such absurd horrible doctrine neuer heard of before and yet the Aucthor must needes be a prophet and his doctrine to proceede from the Lord nowe in despising thys and the like proud speach of HN of necessitie I am counted to despise y Lord thus still you drawe HN. hys matters that who so speaketh or wryteth agaynst hym be wryteth and speaketh agaynst God whether will you exalt your Auâthor ye vnbeleuers surely aboue all that is called God but wyth your father you will be cast headlong so low where to late you may bewaâl your contempt of God and godlinesse looke in tyme to this and the like part of your doctrine oh ye Ipocrites Vitell. FOr asmuch as the Lord hath seen it for good to bryng foorth hys most holy seruice of loue in the duch language although it seeme grosse and barbarous to you so shall it from henceforth be counted a language amoÌg those languages wherin the Lord hath erected his law and the priestes office thereof and the seruice of the beliefe with hys priests office Like maner shall the most holy seruice of loue be brought foorth through the Lorde hys elected minister HN. with his priests office where through the Lorde will receaue all men in mercy whiche humble them vnto hys word of grace according to the requiring of hys lawe and ordinaunces be erected and remayne from generation to generation for euermore for loue peace and righteousnesse shall remayne in eueâlalastingnes Aunswere THe Dutch language must nowe be accounted amongst those learned tongues wherein the law and gospell were written and this he auoucheth the Lord hath seene it for good that it shal be euen so you now take your authors office in hande For you Prophesye that from hencefourth this shall come to pas the law the seruice of the beliefe and the Priestes office must be brought forth in y Dutch Language I cannot but say notwithstanding your false Prophesye that the Dutch Language you vse especially in such straunge inuented wordes and confused compositioÌ is barbarous sith that âârtayne other of your bookes that haue learned to speake latine a toung by nature propriety plaine copious and eloquent are also new fangled in name and barbarous in phrase of purpose to be blasphemous in doctrine which you nor any of your Familyâ haue as yet as I thinke translated they want a certayn father and therefore haue no certayn names but borrowed as Theologica Germanica Augustinus Elutherius c. Their new deuised latin wordes are such as Aegoitas Ipsietas c. Their doctrine is that Adam is nothing els but vetus homo and Christus is nothing els but Nouus homo The history of Christ his birth hys miracles passion death resurrection c. they regard not but allegor is vppon euery part thereof most daungerously and vngodly teachingâ vncertayne significations without coÌâort making no accompt of the history Confidently to beleue the truth of the history they say is to abide in the letter which killeth Those bookes contaynâ playne doctrine which the Libertynes hold and also the doctrine of perfection whiche you hold to be in this life ⪠but especially this principle that when this perfection whiche you dreame of is come to the man then is he illuminate and deiffied and God in him hominified so that in all his actions wordes and thoughtes he can no more coÌmit sinne or anye euill then God or Christ can commit sinne or euill the reason is rendred because God or Christ dwelleth in the man and hath thâ gouernment of all hys actions thoughtes c. And when ye are pressed in conference to shewe that man thus hauing Christ dwelling in him if he at any tyme doe bring foorth any euill that in resemblaunce maâ appeare as sinnes they are not so to beâ accompted of say you because Christ dwelleth in the man which doctrine is wicked false and diuelish as I haue often tolde your fellowes in other places Christ dwelleth in vs by the participation of his holye spirite and guydeth our actions els should wee haue no strength to resiste sathan or flesh nor the intisements of the world but taketh not away thereby our humayne imperfections but he keepeth lustes and all wickednes that they raigne not ouer vs or rule in vs or haue dominion ouer vs yet wee ceasse not to be sinners or commit sinne that is your owne doctrine but hath no foundation or warrant in the worde Other bookes also are of such lyke name and doctrine as Elidad and Fidelitas whereof I fearâ me that you were the traÌslator The doctrin wherof I meane not to touch in this place onely this is to be noted that the parties
I that all people vpon earth which were withouâ the house of Loue were all ârapped in vnbeliefe and that there âas noâhing among them but vaâiâunâe âtrâfe and contenâion reuiling blaspheming misusing deridâng taunââng and âhecking and euery one would haue right and be the commâââlâye of Christ and condemned all others for hereticâes and false Christiâns none would be culpable or beare the blame but euery one put the fault vpon an other Aunswere WEre you so relesed of your blindnes that you were not subiect to be blind againe for that is a questioÌ were your eyes so opened as HN. sayth of himselfe in the preâace of his pâophesye the sight of mine eyes became clearer then the Christall and mine vnderstanding brighter then the sunne âou would faine counterfaite your Aucthor in wordes which become neither of you both with your opened eyes you saw that all people which were without the house of loue were wrapped in vnbeliefe which in playne speach is that all the world which hold not your doctrine nor beleue it are vnbeleuers If this be true then are you vncharitable to lurke in corners and hide this doctrine among yourselues and will let so few be pertakers thereof No feare of torment no threatninges of men should preuaile nor stonish you if this your saying were true is there nothing vpon earth but variaunce contention c You speake of your sight but you haue put on a payre of blinde spectaâleâ and so see nothing For if you saw aright you should to your comfort sâe the Gospell preached true mortification vsed among some and for contentions and strife you your Aucthor HN. are the cause thereof who possessed with phantasticall spirites haue troubled the quiet proceeding of Christ his gospell in that Sathan rayseth vp sectes and errors it is a manifest tokeÌ that he enuieth the prosperitye of the same gospell For in tyme of Poperâ when men followed dreames and illusions then SathaÌ was quiet but now the Gospell is published to the comfort of Châistes Church now âathan besturres himselfe in his members to moue contentious persons to disquiet the âoyfull proceeding thereof Where wheat doth grow ther cockle and âarnell will shew it selfe you are those that make the contention and quarell and yet cry what disssentions are in the world you say euery one challengeth to be called the comminaltye of Christ Why flee ye the name Church putting in stede thereof comminaltes but so you may be lyke your Aucthor in wordes you care not how vnlyke vnto the scriptures you teach Vitell. ANd I saw that by that occasion there was much murmuring vprore rebellion disobedâence to God and to spirituall and temporall gouernors and the lord caused me to see also that there should be no peace erected which should remain or continue without the most holy seruice of loue c. Also then shal no kingdome prosper which is agaynst or despiseth the kingdom of the loue For it is the kingdome of God the Father of God the Sonne of God the holy Ghost For the kingdome of Israell shall be set vp againe and the Children of loue shall raign there in with God and all his Sayntes vnto whom be laud honor and praâse froÌ generation to generation both now and euer Amen Answere AFter this mans blindenes was restored then he saw much murmuring c. Anâ yet you could neuer se rightlâ into your selues for if you cold then should you perceue that you your selues the Papists Anabaptistes Pelagians and Libertines are those that make the rebellioÌ and are cause of the dissention and disobedience to spiritual and temporall gouernors And further you saw no peace should be on earth or continue without the seruice of loue The doutfull significatioÌ of this word Loue is often confounded amoÌg your Familie sometime you woulde haue it taken for God sometime for Christ and sometime for your wholl doctrine and profession and sometime for a property or vertue proceeding froÌ God but to take it simply as I thinke you mean it for the order and manner of your doctrine and seruice of God Then we aunswere that Christ his peace we haue inioyed in his church and it hath contynued with his church since his assention and yet I confesse that such was his pleasure to afflicte his church to suffer wicked persons to persecute the same yet his peace the church neuer wanted Therfore your sight was very dimme when you saw such things Moreouer you saw that no kingdome should prosper which is agaynst the loue Kingdoms and nations haue prospered and do prosper by the protection of the almighty with his blessing and yet are against your Familie of loue Therfore cleare your spectacles and looke better vpon the matter for surely I thinke you were in some dreame wheÌ you writ this And wher as you would haue vs beleeue y kingdome and seruice of the loue is y kingdome of God the father the sonne and the holy Ghost this you haue brought in to make the world beleeue that your Familie of loue is nothing els but the true doctrine sent from God but you herein deceue your selues and others for the doctrine taught among you is strange and no where to be found in the word of the Lord and your Author HN. geueth testimonye onâly of himself without warrant from God or his word therfore your doctrine in the Familie of loue is not from God the Father c. If you say that others also geue testimony of HN. his doctrine name vnto vs it is your Fidelitas who in deede in his booke chapter 2. sex 8. sayeth as followeth You shal furthermore vnderstaÌd ⪠that the iudgement which the God of heauen hath declared through HN. vpoÌ earth set forth through the same his minister is very true that also the same iudgement pronounceth and declareth the right forme and state of all what is in heauen and vpon earth of all what is Gods and mans spirituall and heauenly and of all what is naturall right and reasonable And that no such wonderfull workes coulde be wrought nor brought forth by any man vnles God were with him c. In deed this fellow Elder Fidelitas testyfieth much of your HN. But whether his testimony be true let vs examine it a litle If the iudgemeÌt which God hath declared through HN. be very true theÌ was there no truth before For HN. teacheth such a doctrine as was neuer heard of in the world since the creation especially the doctrine how man is godded with God c. and thaâ man and God had all one order being and nature Also the doctrine of peââeâââon to be in this life attayned vnto and that the law is possible to be kept all which if it be very true what âN hath declared and set sorth then doth the holy Ghost in the scriptures teach vs contrary as shall appeare more ân treating of the particularities of these poynts Moreouer if we would geue credite to this
with all to deceaue all How do you obserue the politik ordinaunce of the Maiestrate in printing your bookes and publishing them to the Queenes subiectes contrary to the law made in that behalf your obedience cânsisteth in wordes but not in ãâã âhârefore with more truth you might saye we will not be obedient to Maiâstrates In that you coÌdescend âoâ iâ anye thing contrary to God c. Therin you say well but I would you were found herein true of your promise for then your HN. and hys doctrine with hys prophesies should not haue such credit amoÌg you as appeareth if his doctrine be not directly agaynst the Lorde our God and hys commaundementes I apeale vnto the iudgement of all God his Children that shall reade these conferences You accompt none vngodly but such as blaspheme the Lord and despise his most holy seruice of loue Whome you accompt blasphemers before is declared iâ any speake aagaynst your HN. or your Family of loue Ipso faâto he is a blasphemer then all the worlde which doe despise your Familye are blasphemers your conclusion must needes fall out euen so whereby appeareth what reuerent opinion you haue of any and of al that are not of your Family if you learned this of HN. consider better of it for very shame of y worldâ if no reuereÌce nor feare of God can moue you You confesse that there is no man righteous vntill the Lord deliuer him froÌ hys vnrighteousnes but howe we are deliuered you wee greatly vary we according vnto the holy Scripture do acknowledge Christ to be our righteousnes which he hath wrought perfectly in him selse which by fayth wee apply to our vnrighteousnes hys obedieÌce his loue his pacience c. we by fayth apply to our disobedience to our hatred to our impacience c. all what was in Christ is made ours by grace yet still wee in our earthen vessels are coârupt sinâull and vâyde oâ anye suche vertues as the law requireth But âou on the contrarye affirme that by Christ working in vs by hys spirite we are made righteous and so clensed from our vnrighteousnes that we are chaunged into hys perfection so that in all our actions wordes and thoughts nothing can âlow oâ pâocâede from vs but sucâe as procâede ârom Christ because we are guyded by the same spirite but whether you or wee speake truth let the holy Scriptures beare witnesse then may be say that the Lord is his righteousnes it is very true but how and in what manner the Lord may be sayd to be our righteousnes is to be vnderstoode we acknowledge y hee in hys owne person is our righteousnes and sanctificatioÌ but you will haue hys righteousnes wrought in you by his spirtie the difference coÌsisteth in the maâer we acknowledge in him all strength all piety all obedience and in our selues all weakenes all vngodlinesse and all disobedience but you will needes haue all in all to be in vs whiche to much blemisheth hys glory and triumph if we shoulde also in our persons triumph our triumph standeth not in doing but in beleeuing in him which did Therefore as you haue charged vs wrongfully to be aduocats for sinne so may we rightly call yâu Patrons for our corrupt rotten and earthen vessels Vitell. MOre you are offended at the confession of the Familye of Loue vnderstand the matter well that there is no man coÌpelled therevnto but if any one be wounded or trobled in his coÌscience then he may to his coÌfort make his euel thoughts or els what manifest vnto a priest or Elder aâcording vnto the counsell of the holy scripture Also I thinke it is an ordinauÌce in the Church of England that if any one be troubled in minde he shall come and aske counsell of the person or minister and I thinke he must then make manifest his thoughtes c. And the Catholiâk ReligioÌ holdeth thought word and deede but there are many that will compell men to deâlare their thoughts ⪠whiâh ãâã nââther pâiestes nor Ministers of the âord Aunswere TOuching your coÌfessioÌ which âou acknowledge to be voluntary and not coaâted I haue signified my dislyking your Auâthor HN. doâh say it is expedient that they of his Familye make maniâest all that hath bin coÌmitted both what it is wherevnto our nature draweth vs vnto here it apppeareth ⪠if you follow your Author directly he leueth the matter not so voluntary as of necessitye And this must be done as you say vnto a pâiest or Elder to please the Papitles I thinke you haue added this worde priest but we tell you that such manner of confession the scriptures allow not of if any be wounded in conscieÌce he may to his comfort repayre to any godly or learned preacher âo shew his griefe and to receaue counsell and comfort to his consolation by the scripture agaynst the prick of conscience or the law which troubleth many miÌs mindes but that of necessitye he must make manifest all thoughts all what our nature doth incline vnto there is no warrant what ordinaunce is in the Church of England you haue not shewed but that he must of necessitye make manifest his thoughts it is vntrue it is left frââ onely by way of perswasion men are moued to repaire in such extremitye to their learned and godly pastors and by no ordinaunce but this appeareth that you accompt not your selfe as any member of this Church of England no maruell for you holde it more safe to professe HN. his Familye then to be an obedient child of Christ his Church Whereof England is a speciall part What the Catholick religion holdeth touching confession is no cloke to shaddow your dealinges with all for we tell both you and them that such a confession as both you and they hold is not agrâeing with trueth The Papistes vrge men and accompt them heretickes that deny it and you hold it as an expedient thinge neither haue you both any warrant so to doe Some doe compell men to declare their thoughtes which are neither priestes nor ministers as you affirme who they are you tell vs not yet I suppose you meane the coÌmissioners who âxamining your Familye touching their fayth and doctrine found them so suttle by your instructioÌs that in y end they required theÌ to declare their knowledge what they thought of their Author HN. and I thinke the Magistrate authorised by the Prince may in such cases require vs to maniâest what opinion we haue of any Author or what we thinke of him but you haue taught them to say we know him not and therefore to commend him or discommend him wee may not such sleightes you deuise wheÌ the Magistrats requireth a trueth at your handes and here is also declared your obedieÌce to rulers your Elders are safe when the poore country people are brought before the Magistrates but when will any of you the âlders come voluntarily and defend your doctrine and proue it good by souÌd argumeÌt it
acknowledge themselues to be felow Elders with the Elder HN. and magnifie his office and calling abouâ measure and protest with great vehemency that such wonderfull workes as are brought forth through the same HN. could not be wrought unles the Lord God were with him And these strange names of their Elders do maruelously astonish our English people Elidad as I haue learned is an Hebruâ word and signyfieth dilecâus Dei. the beloued of God which is a proper title belonging to our Sauiour Christ. This is my beloued sonne c. And that we generally are in him and by him beloued there is no dout so is be still the beloued And that some of their Elders name themselues Fidelitas so others that belike are not come to so high degree name theÌselueâ Amatores Charitatis It is a world to see how these men delite in such vayne shewes of piety and thinke to get credite by these coloured meanes which to the godly seemeth ridiculous and too too fond And thus much coÌcerning the bokes in latin by occasioÌ of the Dutch wherin note this Christian Reader that wheras the Italian Pope would haue all in latin this other Pope and dutch Antichrist would haue all in Dutch as a predestinate tongue to open his prophesies and misteries of that Lord. All the quotations of holy scripture that HN. vseth to proue that he is rysen from the dead to iudge the world do proue in deede that Iesus Christ hath rysen from the dead must they therfore auouch HN. his resurrection See good Reader the presumptuous spirite of Sathan so setled in these for âorne âdames ⪠that through the eating of that forbidden fruite wherethrough they would become as god that is deiââed they are wholy become sathanified or diuilyfied Strange names I confesse but very significant propeâ for such strange Christians Was not Christ Iesus mightely declared to be God by the resurrection from y dead If this resurrection were the mightyest declaration or argument proofe that Christ was God iudge Christian Reader ⪠if HN. maketh not himself not only God but Christ and so the promised séede And in deede you your selfe Vitell haue affirmed him to be a Prophet before in thiâ place you cal him a priest geue him also the name of a king and then is he Christ a new Messiaâ for by his resurrection he maketh him selfe god Such an Antichâist â thinke should neuer haue beene heard of if that the Children of God had not beene warned in the gospell that many false Christes should come into the world and such dangerous dayâs that if it were possible the elect of God should be deceaued But blessed be God whâ euer is ready to preserue his electe by Christ sâ that perish in âecoiuable wayeâ they shall not such a care hath the Lord ouer his Now HN. and his ââistes office shall appeare where through the Lord will receaue all men O impudent wretâhes haue we not a deliuerer euen the Lord Iesus who doth not onely receaue vs but continually protect vs and minister to vs all thinges both heauenly and earthly which are expedient for vs but will you blasphemously open your mouthes that wee shall be receiued by the Priestes office of your HN. No godly Christian can heare this without griefe What âerogatioÌ is this to our merciful Lord and Sauiour that now a wretched man possessed with a lamentable spirite shall take vpon him his office and calling where through we shall be receaued Oh manisefâst impietye Oh exeârable iniquitye which no patience can beare Seing you publishe âuch doctrine in writing with deliberation what doctrine doe you teâch in corners to your Family where no maÌâare open hiâ mouth agaynst any blasphemy that you doe vtter ⪠In such credââ are you ââept but wo worth y hed that seekes to ãâã the simple with such horrible doctrine Your ãâã âayd that I know not HN. but as it was sayd to Serinthus the heretique I know him to be the first begotten sonne of SathaÌ But the Lord hath geuen his Church the spirite of trueth to direââ them from all such vâyne boastes of iniquitye So lykewise O Lord geue thy holy spirit to the simple seduced in y Familye ⪠that they may behold the blasphemyes which their Elders in wickednes doe teach agaynst the son of God Christ Iesus Vitell. FVrthermore you write very vntruly of HN. where you say that no man be he neuer so learned or godly can vnderstand or interpreat the scriptureâ for I am sure there are no such wordes written by him therfore I must needes say they are lyes and false iudgementes with wrong interpretatioÌs almost all what you write of him and of his workes and euen so are most of your interpretationâ which you alledge of Christ and his Apostles doctrine For if so be they I meane HN. his bookes might be perused of vnparciall Iudges then your iudgement would be found euen lyke their iudgement which coÌdemned Susanna but the Lord raysed vp Daniell which is the iudgement of God and deliuered the giltles vnto whome we commit our cause For he will iudge vprightly and reward euery one according to his deedes Aunsweâe WHat HN. hath pronouÌced of all other mens vnderstaÌding of the scripture I will here agayne set down that the reader may iudge who is in the lye Therefore it is assuredly all false and lyes seducing and deceitfull what the vngodded or vnilluminated men out of the imagination or of their owne knowledge and out of the learnednes of the scriptures bring forth institute preach and teach they preach in deede the letâer and the imagination of their knowledges but not the word of the liuing God. And in an oâher place âo diuâ ⪠codem cap. ãâã theÌ esteme themselues so holy as they will they are a false Christianitye and Diuells sinagogue or schole c. with many other places to lyke effect so that HN. still teacheth his Familye that it is geueÌ to the Familye of Loue to vnderstand the secretes thereof Now let the indiffereÌt reader iudge whether HN. exempt not all but him and his from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures all men which are not godded with God he tearmeth fleshly minded and earthly in cogitations and intreateth whole chapters of such men he sayth That a fleshly and earthly man out of his naturall and scripture learned vnderstaÌding hath not any sight or knowledge at all thereof he iâ so vtterly voyd of the same that he cannot vnderstand the smallest title thereof much lesse expound the same according to the trueth to an other c. So that it appeareth pâayne that nono but HN. and his illuminat Elders can vnderstand the samâ ⪠ââccording to trueth You say if HN. his bookes might be perused of vnpartiall Iudges then should his case be found as innocent as Susanna Those vnparcial Iudgeâ that you would haue are you and your fellow Elders in the Familye For I doe truely affirme that no
some thinges yet so as hitherto vntouched of you except we should take your bare word agaynst many witnesses Vitell. FVrther you write of two men which weâe before a worshipfull Iustice Anno 1561. which you affirm to be of the Fam. of loue what they were that is that but of HN. his doctrine at that time they knew not also you affirme you knowe what but seeing you will âeedes slaunder vs we will in the patience of Christ beare thât and hâpe âpon the goodnes and mercifulnesse of the Lord desiring him to geue you a better minde Aunswere TOuching two meÌ examyned before a worshipfull Iustice I haue collected that they were of the Family of loue you answere the doctrine of HN. at that time they knew not but this is certain one of them is liuing knoweth you but to well and is a welwiller to your Family and scoller of Allin but what they were you aunswere that is that Such suttle aunsweres are fittest for men of your profession you know what they were it seemeth and in deed they were of your hatching although for further increase of knowledge ⪠Allin their neare neighbor did more instructe them and lead them forward into your error Plain dealing would haue put men out of doute seeing you know what they were But since they haue bewrayed your doings ⪠in secret you regard them not For some of your Familye haue aunswered that by compulcion and threates they made their confession others say playne they were not of our Family you are ashamed of them now that they haue disclosed your secret conference You say I affirme I know what I thinke you meane touching your owne person wherein I haue vttered you to be y onely man y hath brought this wicked doctrine of HN. which lay hidden in the Dutch tongue among our simple English people to their euerlasting destruction except the Lord in mercy open their eyes that they may see into the wicked monstrous drift of your Author HN. and repent theÌ and so turn vnto the Lord Iesus from whome they haue departed following a stranger an enemy to Christ and his gospell set vp by Sathan who enuieth the prosperitye thereof The Lord geue you hartes to vnderstand and also geue euery one of you a better minde Vitell. COncerning Christopher Vâtell of his aât or his small skill in learning he knoweth it also neither doth he make any boast of any thing that he âaÌ for he knoweth if he haue any goâd whether it be godly or maâly that ât commeth fâom aboue for all goâd coÌmeth from the Father of light with âhome there is no variablnes âeiâher is he chaunged into daâkenes but all what is neither gâdly âoâ manây that commeth out oââhe âlâsh of ãâã or âlâshfly wisedonâ ãâã the ãâã gâod thinking his ãâ¦ã âhiâh bringeth ãâ¦ã holyââs a counterfaâte riâhteouââes as also many manner of religions or chosen God seruices sectes or errors c. Aunswere TOuching this Christopher Clitel in Latten Vitâlus or Vitulus I haue sayd he is a ioyner by occupation a wauering minde and vnconstaÌt delighting in singularitys alwayes held hereticall opinions almost this 36. yeares wise men haue noted 3. euills being once rooted in man are seldome or neuer voyd of some spice of y same disease that is Lunasy Ieolously and heresye and it so falleth out by this mans example who in king Henryes raigne was vnconstant in king Cowardes raigne a dissembler and in Queenes Maryes raigne a playne Arryan and now in this our Princes raigne a chiefe teacher of the Familye of Loue now he hosteth of nothing surely there is no cause but rather to sorrow that many poore people by you are deceiued and abused and their simplicitye caryed away by your suttle speaches You say what so is godly or manly that is from aboue the phrase is somewhat difficult I think you mean spirituall and earthly But where you adde what is neither godly nor manly y coÌmeth of the flesh of sinne c. Here is a distinction more scholasticall then meane wittes can attaine to if by godly and manly you place manly as contrary to godly then is manly taken in the euill part and so not from aboue excepte you will haue euell thinges from aboue which cannot be The thirde distinction is ambiguous for of our corrupt nature wee bring forth fleshly wisdome imaginations c. And herevnto are we by nature subiect if the Lord by his grace doe not guide vs and lead vs and deliuer vs yea and so deliuered if he still doe not protect and gouerne vs we shall be ready to fall agayne and agayne therefore we dayly craue at his handes saying deliuer vs Lord from such euels as by our owne corrupt nature we are subiect vnto Here are also 2. phrases I thought not good to let pas vntouched the one the mans good thinking and this is taken in the Family in the euill parte If his thought be good it is from aboue why despise ye it The other is chosen God seruices If it be a seruice of God then you doe not well to place this phrase with sects and errors But these men haue a delite to publishe strange Religion and to set it forth with strange phrases also For so they may speake like their Author they care not how vnlike the holy scripture they write Vitell. ANd all these come hereout because the man will iudge the âorkes of the Lord with his naturall wisdome or lernedenes And heâout namely out of the wisedome of the flesh sprang all Christopher Vitelles errors but not out of any other maÌs councell or bookes Answere ALl errors sectes and couÌterfaite righteousnes as this man saith come of this that man will iudge the worâes of the Lord with his naturall wisdome lewdnes Touching man simply which S. Paul calleth Ammalis homo the âleshly minded man knoweth not the things that are of God yet it is also affirmed that no man can say Abba Father without the spirite of god This man would perswade that there is now some secret teaching froÌ God by reuelation which is proper to this Family and therein they haue a speciall gifte they litle regard the ordinary way and meane to attayne knowledge and the true sence of the holy scripture It is not to be denyed that almighty God hath taught his children by his holy spirite in reuelations extraordenary but that now the sonne of God is come into the world eâen the wisdom of the Father with an vncouered face shall we now in this light looke to be taught by reuelations or inspiratioÌs he hath by his wisdome established an ordinarye way of teachinge in his church wherunto we must stand obâdyent except we will deny his ordynance Faith commeth by hearing of the word of God If we haue faith we shal not want other excellent vertues she is neuer alone but loue charitiâ humilitie patience c. waite vpoÌ her as handmaydes Hath not the Deuill deluded many
which only depende on reuelations And you which brag of your Author which is as he sayeâh taught froÌ god his own mouth hath hard y souÌd of his voice Thus miserably are you carâed away by illusioÌs herin you deceiue your selues and many others Out of the wisdome of the flesh sprange all Christopher Vitelles ârrors Note I pray thee Reader that this Libeller acknowledgeth to haue bin in him many errors comprehended in this word âall and anonâ thou shall finde him saying he was in no error In deede the church of Christ hath felt to much expeââence of your heretâcall head fraught full of heresies so that if any newer deuice should by Sathan be stirred vp you are as apte an instrument to broach the same as any that I know in England From no other mans bookes did this man sucke his errors and were you in error theÌ and by the same meanes may you not still remayne in error haue you any further priuiledge now then you had before Of necessity you must sly vnto your perfection that you cannot erre nor sinne there is no ether excuse to be had here is a mistery For you thinke it an absurde thing that your errors spâang from any other fountaine then the flesh of sinne No bookes no conference were meanes to bring you to this ârroâ Loâke well into your selfe and you shall fiâde in âou now more errors and heâ esiâs then euer you held heretofore âou imagined your selfe cleansed and your hâuse swept but now are sâuen morse spirites entered into you as appâareth by your doctrin and you are become ten solde the child of destruction more now thân beâârâ And except you repent your ende will be far worse then your beginning Vitell. NEither âan I blame any man for minâ own sinnes were gâeater and horribleâ in my sight ⪠then all other menneâ for although I had âed certayne bookes of sundry wryteâs yet was I moued to seaââh âhether they were grounded vpon the Loâds promyses or no and humbling my selfâ befoâe the Loâd aâ desiâous to doe his will âo gaue he me to vndeâstand that I knew nothing of all his wayeâ but the troble that I âas in whereout the Lord delyueâed me âs not to be expââssed And iâ the Loâd of his goodnes had not comfârted me with his holy spiâite through hiâ most holy seruice of his loue broght forth through HN. his elected minister I should haue remained without hope of life Answere NOw commeth this Vitell to declare a tragedy of himself which no man can gaânsay being a thing secret and vnknowen to the world For our secret conflictes are troublesome I graunt when our conscience shall pres vs with the greatenes of our sinnes but whether it were so or no who can controll him or els who will beleeue his own wordes speaking so many things contrary to truth already But I must certifie that this is a speciall point of practise in the Family that when any in conference doe require how they could so easily leaue the certainty of doctrine which once they earnestly imbraced then shall you heare them tell you of marueilous conflicts much trouble and veration of minde and could neuer attaine to any quietnes vntill by the doctrine of ââ they found rest vnto their soules But may not this be an illusion of Sathan as otherwise being rightly examined for Sathan is so suttle that if he may get possession of any setled mindes who instructed in godlynes by the scriptures resist his perswasions and so coÌmeth to conslict of minde in such troubles ⪠where Sathan ⪠by the Lord his permission preuayleth then worketh he in his a certayne security or peace and then they thinke all is well when indâde neuer in worse case then so captiued in Sathans tyranny Now this man when he hath set abroad some of his troubles you shall see how he was deliuered by which we may gather what marke he shootes at namely in all troubles and agonyes of minde all must resort to the seruice of Loue set forth by his elected Minister HN. For this man if he had not taken that course he had remained without hope of lyfe certaynly great is the honor wherewith they aduaunce this their priest and prophet aboue all that is called God but my hope is that with the blast of the Lord his mouth which he hath published in the scriptures he shall be confounded and ouerthrowne so low that the fall of him which so exalted himselfe shall be to the comfort of all the Lord his children for whose âake he now beginneth to maniâest this lying Prophet and will I hope rayse vp to his Church men of zelous mindes which will both write and speake agaynst this wicked man of sinne which is in such credit with deceaued people which the Lord in mercy spedely bring to passe to the glory of thy name the comfort of thy church and the spoyle of Sathan and his ympes Vitell. BVt he gaue me to vnderstande there through that he would be merâifull vnto all penitent sinners how horrible sinnes soeuer they had coÌmitted therefore I may say a medicine master getteth gretest prayâe by those that haue the filthâest and corruptest diseaâes as a leprous person and such like âuen so haue I the gretest cause to land the Lord and must confes that he whâch is mighty hath done great things on me and holy is his name Answere NOw after this man hath shewed his conflict of minde and how he was delyuered through the seruice of loue ministred by HN. Now he telleth that by that same he vnderstood that God would be mercifull to al sinners and I pray you did you not know of this mercy but by HN Were you ignoraunt âof the Scriptures before you came acquainted with him his bookes His mercy and compassion is plentifully declared in the gospell which it seemeth you were ignorant of This medicine mâster HN. hath wrought a great cure vpon this man For as one of your schollers haue written in his defence He teacheth with power and it may be the power of Sathan which leadeth men into errors and heresies Although you imagine that this is wrought by the mighty hand of the Lord abusing the words of the âanticle which the blessed virgine did set forth magnifying the name of y Lord thereby Touching your diseases which you count to be cured it is out of dout that you are more full of infirmities and desperate diseases then euer you were although you feele them not For a body that feeleth no sicknes yet infirme and weake is hard to be cured yea irrecuperable as Phisitions prescribe Looke therfore more rightly into your selfe and you that are so whole clene you shall finde matter of corruption in you whereupon the true Phisition of our soules Christ Iesus shall if you acknowledge your sicknes and infirmity worke therby such an alteration in you as heretofore you neuer had the lyke but if you stand
good but forasmuch as your doctrine is false wicked and fantasticall therfore your prayer is corrupte and abhominable and to be despised and all princes that fear the Lord wil become vtter enemies to you â your doctrine and seek diligently to amend if it be possible your corruptions and I doute not but the Lord hath in his Church men of zealous mindes who will not see the glory of our immortall God nor the death passion and resurrection of Christ Iesus our Lord so defaced darâkned and shadowed And that his Church may be purged of such corrupt weedes which spring vp séeking to destroy that good corn which is sowed already O Lord God we humble sinners abiding in the vnity of thy holy Church doe most humbly hartely pray thee eueÌ for thy sonne our Sauiour Christ Iesus sake that thou wilt in mârcy looke vpon thy poore afflicted Church and the members thereof that by no malice of Sathan no pretence of collored speach nor no vanity of minde any of thy children be caryed away as straying from thy fould but that O Lord they may agayne be ioyned to thy flock so that so many as pertayne vnto that good shepherd of our soules Christ Iesus may laud and prayse thy name with one voyce and O Lord we most humbly beseech thee to clense thy Church from the filthy dregges of doctrine which wicked meÌ through the malice of Sathan haue deuised to disquiet thy peaceable Sion conuert thou them O Lord wée beseech thee mollify their stony hartes which haue set vp a Prophet whome thou O Lord hast not sent let them O Lord behold how farre they haue declyned from thy wayes and followed the doctrine of deceaueable men let them see from whome they haue departed to whom they cleaâe fast And although we O Lord by our offences and the manyfold transgressions wherwith we prouoke thy merciâull goodnes who doe know thy will and yet are so slow performerâ therof wherby thou O Lord doest punish our offences so that wicked men now set vp theÌselues against vs accusing vs and that worthely of the breaking of thy holy lawes So O Lord although we haue thus sore prouoked thy goodnes by our offences yet we beseech thee consider thy sonne our Lord and Sauiour whose obedience righteousnes to thy will ⪠thou hast by promise made it ours so that beloÌging to thy sonne we are shadowed vnder his righteousnes and couered vnder his winges in safety from eternall destrucâion But such is thy goodnesse O mercifull God to try thy children here in earth how stedfast we will bid battaâle against Sathan and his impes and how constant we will abide therein so that no blast nor inuation of enemies shall I hope shake that foundation of faith that thou hast plânted in vs which we most humbly desire thy maiesty to increase and that we may perseuâre and continue in the vnity of thy holy church in this life and after we may inioy tâe fruition of thy godly maiâstye and sing prâyses vnto thee world without end Vitell. O Lord let vs finde grace before thine eyes and heare ouâ humble sâpplication which we make vnto thee in the sorrowfulnesse of our haâts For a broaken hart and a sorrowfull spââite wilt thou O Lord not despise ⪠for euen there wilt thou enter ãâã and therby mââe thine habitation and sanctifie thy name from genâration tââenâââtioâ ãâã in euerlastingnes It is very true Answere O Lord we bâseech thée turne the harts of thesâ deceaueâ people and graunt them thy holâ sâirit y they may discern thy truth tauâht in thy holy word and not geue eaâe vnto anâe which teach coÌtrary therto ouerthrow their deuices brig to light their deâââts for thy holy names sake That we thy childreÌ may reiâyce ouer their tâ uersioÌ so together with one voice magnifie praise thy glorious name ⪠and that those straying shââp may be brought in to thy fold again ãâã it be thy blesââd wil Reueale vnto them O Lord we beseech thee the office and death of thy sonne our Lord and Sauiour that they tasting the swetenes thereof may âorsake the confidence they haue in their perfection and that we may all acknowledge onely Christ Iesus to be perâite and we our selues dust and dung and whatsoeuer is vile let nât Sathan lead theÌ captiue but O Lord we besech thee pull them out of the Lyons mouth and conioyne them to thy holy Church out of which they haue wandred ouer long in doctrines of men Let thy strength appeare O Lord and let our weakenes be made open to them let the effect of thy Gospell breake into their hartes of stone that they may tast féele how swâete the Lord is in mercy towardes sinners and how seuere to such as iustify theÌselues And if it stand with thy good will pleasure thus to coÌuert theÌ at the sute of our earnest prayers we shall for the same geue thankes in thy Church euermore But if thy Churche shall haue thereby their tryall made knoweÌ to the world herein O Lord kéepe thy children and such as loue thâ Lord Iesus embrace the ioyfull tidinges of the Gospell in thine owne bosome that they be not led away with any pretences of pietye into error or corruption but defend them as thou hast promised that what pittye a Father hath ouer his childreÌ lyke pittye thou O Lord wilt shew vnto theÌ which we besech thee graunt vs for thy sonne Iesus Christ his sake to whome with the holy ghost be honor land prayse power and dominion from euerlasting to euerlasting So be it The state and condition of a regenerate man by the rule of holy scripture compared with the state of a regenerat man by the doctrine of HN. in the Familye of Loue. I Being in my creation at the first in most excellent state and happines hauing by diuine prouideÌce in my selfe frée choyse will to choose the good and refuse the euill described by fire and water I willingly and of mine owne accord gaue place to euill and so worthely by iustice brought vpon my selfe the heauy hand of my God and the dexteritye of his law ⪠with maledirioÌ cursse where in â had remained euerlastingly had not the Lord my God in mercy and of his speciall grace beholding my woeâââl âase without any desert of mine prouided and promised a deliuerer a Sauiour eueÌ the Lord Iesus which in âulnes of time came whome the Patriarches hoped after whome the Prophets foretold of which died for my sinnes and rose agayne for my iustification who put out the hand writing of the law pronounced agaynst me âastened it to his crosse who suffered for me y I might raigne with him who left me an example that I should âollow his steppes And which is more without coÌdition promisâd me eternall lyfe which by the onely sacrifice of his death he hath obtayned and by his paynefull