he comes to the words by you cited and teacheth that holy Scripture hath warned vs what words and manner of speach or phrase we ought to vse in speaking of the Person of the Blessed Trinity which Schoole Deuines cal Proprietates Personarum Yet that your Corruption might not be void of art or rather a double fraud in your Margent you put in Greeke S. Epiphanius his words that so to such as vnderstood not Greeke nor perceiue your mistranssation your fraud might passe for honest dealing and deceiue your Reader and to others you might answere if need were that in your Margent S. Epiphanius was rightly alleaged 9. These words of Charity Mistaken I must needs obserue that m he that is S. Augustin recounts diuers Heresies which are held by the Protestant Church at this day and particularly that of denying Prayers and Sacrifices for the dead you corruptly compendiate when you say The Mistakeâ— must needs obserue that the Protestants hold diuers ancient Heresies and particularly (n) Pag. 3â— that of denying Prayers for the dead Where you omit the words Saint Augustine recounts diuers Heresies and in particular that c. to make men belieue that it was but a bare affirmation of Charity Mistaken and not collected out of S. Augustine As likewise you conceale Sacrifices lest the world might belieue S. Augustine was a Papist who neuertheles both in this Treatise de haeresibus ad Quod-vult-Deum haer 35. cited by Charity Mistaken and elsewhere teacheth that the dead are holpen by the holy (o) De verâ—â— Apost serm 34. Sacrifice After this you say He is very much (p) Pag. 35. mistaken in his Obseruation The Commemoration of the deceased in the ancient Church which AeÌ„rius without reason disallowed was a thing much differing from those Prayers for the dead which are now in vse in the Church of Rome Thus hauing substituted Commemoration of the deceased insteed of Prayers and Sacrifices for the dead you add with your wonted sincerity Our Roman Catholiques belieue at least they say so that some soules of the faithfull after their departure hence are detained in a certaine fire bordering vpon Hell till they be throughly purged and their Prayers for them are that they may be released or eased of those torments But you are still like your selfe You may read in (q) De Purg. lib. 2. cap. 6. Bellarmine that concerning the Question Vbisit Purgatorium Where Purgatory is the Church hath defined nothing And to the other point Whether in Purgatory there be true corporeall sire he answers (r) Ib. c. 11. That it is the common Opinion of Deuines that properly there is true fire of the same nature with our fire Which Doctrine is not indeed a matter of fayth because it is no where defined by the Church yea in the Councell of Florence the Grecians openly profess't that they did not hold there was fire in Purgatory neuertheles in the definition which was made in the last Sess it was defined that there is a Purgatory without making any mention of fire Neuertheles it is a most probable Opinion by reason of the agreement of the Schoole-Deuines which cannot be reiected without rashnes Thus Bellarmine 10. Now for the maine point That Aërius was put in the list of Heretiques for denying Prayers for the Dead which are offered to release or ease them of their paine I proue out of Aërius his owne words Out of S. Epiphanius whom you seeme to alledge in your behalfe Out of the ancient Fathers Greeke and Latine out of Protestants themselues both in regard that they confesse the Doctrine of Purgatory and Prayer for the dead euen as Catholiques belieue them to haue been belieued by the Ancient Fathers and also in regard they directly acknowledge that Aërius was condemned by the Fathers for denying Prayer for the Dead as we belieue and practise it 11. Heare then your Progenitor Aërius testifying with his owne mouth the practise of Catholiques in those ancient dayes How saith he to Catholiques doe you (*) Apud Epiph. haeres 75. after Death name the names of the dead For if the liuing pray c. what will it profit the dead Or if the prayers of them who are heere be for those who are there then let no man be vertuous nor let him doe any good worke but let him get friends by what meanes he will eyther by money or leauing that charge to his friends at his death let them pray for him that he may not SVFFER any thing there and that irremediable sinnes committed by him may not be layd to his charge Is it not cleere inough by these wordes that this Heretique taxeth Prayers offered for the dead to release or lessen their paynes after this life not only for a bare CoÌ„memoration or Thankes-giuing or the like And that any man may yet further consider especially if he continue to be of as Puritanicall a Spirit as he was who most resembles the spirit of this Aërius let vs by the way add these words of his Neyther ought (s) Ibid. there to be any appointed fast for these things are Iudaicall and vnder the yoake of seruitude For there is no law appointed for the iust man but for Murtherers of their Fathers and Mothers and such like But if I be resolued to fast I will choose my selfe any day and I will fast with freedome 12. Let vs now see what S. Epiphanius in the same place sayth for your Commemoration of the deceased As for pronouncing the names of the Dead sayth he what can be more profitable good and admirable Because the liuing belieue that the deceased liue and are not extinct but haue a being and liue with our Lord And that I may vtter a most pious doctrine that there is hope in those who pray for their Brethren as for those who are trauailed to another Countrey These words you recite out of S. Epiphanius but leaue out those words which immediatly follow and are directly against the doctrine which you will proue out of him in that very place For thus he saith But the Praiers which are made for them do profit them although they do not release the whole sin in regard as long as we are in this world we faile and erre both voluntarily and against our will to the end that that also may be mentioned which is more perfect we remember both the lust Sinners For Sinners imploring the mercy of God But for the Iust Fathers Patriarches Prophets Apostles Euangelists Martyres Confessors Bishops and Anchorites c. that we may put a difference betwixt our Lord Iesus Christ and all Orders of men by that honour which we giue to him and that to him we may giue adoration You see that S. Epiphanius speakes of forgiuenes of sinnes that he makes a difference between Prayers offered for deceased Sinners and the Commemoration of Saints who by way of Thankes-giuing are remembred as holy men wheras
consequeÌ„ce because if once we doubt of one Booke receiued for Canonicall the whole Canon is made doubtfull and vncertayne and therefore the Infallibility of Scripture must be vniuersall and not confined within compasse of points fundamentall 15. I answere For the thing it selfe it is very true that if I doubt of any one parcell of Scripture receaued for such I may doubt of all And thence by the same parity I inferre that if we did doubt of the Churches Infallibility in some points we could not belieue her in any one and consequently not in propounding Canonicall Bookes or any other points fundamentall or not fundamentall which thing being most absurd and withall most impious we must take away the ground thereof belieue that she cannot erre in any point great or small and so this reply doth much more strengthen what we intended to proue Yet I add that Protestants cannot make vse of this reply with any good coherence to this their distinction and some other doctrines which they defend For if D. Potter can tell what points in particuler be fundamentall as in his 7. Sect. he pretendeth then he may be sure that whensoeuer he meets with such points in Scripture in them it is infallibly true although it might erre in others not only true but cleere because Protestants teach that in matters necessary to Saluation the Scripture is so cleere that all such necessary Truths are eyther manifestly contayned therein or may be cleerely deduced from it Which doctrines being put togeather to wit That Scriptures cannot erre in points fundamentall that they cleerely containe all such points and that they can tell what points in particuler be such I meane fundamentall it is manifest that it is sussicieÌ„t for Saluation that Scripture be infallible only in points fundamentall For supposing these doctrines of theirs to be true they may be sure to find in Scripture all points necessary to saluation although it were fallible in other points of lesse moment Neyther will they be able to auoyde this impiety against holy Scripture till they renounce their other doctrines and in particuler till they belieue that Christs promises to his Church are not limited to points fundamentall 16. Besides from the fallibility of Christs Catholique Church in some points it followeth that no true Protestant learned or vnlearned doth or can with assurance belieue the vniuersall Church in any one point of doctrine Not in points of lesser momeÌ„t which they call not fundamentall because they belieue that in such points she may erre Not in fundamentalls because they must know what points be fundamentall before they go to learne of her least other wise they be rather deluded then instructed in regard that her certaine and infallible direction extends only to points fundamentall Now if before they addresse themselues to the Church they must know what points are fundamentall they learne not of her but will be be as fit to teach as to be taught by her How then are all Christians so often so seriously vpon so dreadfull menaces by Fathers Scriptures and our blessed Sauiour himselfe counselled and commaunded to seeke to heare to obey the Church S. Augustine was of a very different mind from Protestants If sayth he the (s) Epist. 118. Church through the whole world practise any of these things to dispute whether that ought to be so done is a most insolent madnes And in another place he sayth That which (t) lib. 4. de Bapt. c. 24. the whole Church holds and is not ordained by CouÌ„cels but hath alwaies beene kept is most rightly belieued to be deliuered by Apostolicall authority The same holy Father teacheth that the custome of baptizing children cannot be proued by Scripture alone and yet that it is to be belieued as deriued from the Apostles The custome of our Mother the (u) lib. 10. de Genesi ad liter cap. 23. Church saith he in baptizing infants is in no wise to be contemned nor to be accounted superfluous nor is it at all to be belieued vnles it were an Apostolicall Tradition And elsewhere Christ (w) Serm. 54. de verbis Apost c. 18. is of profit to Children baptized Is he therefore of profit to persons not belieuing But God forbid that I should say Infants doe not belieue I haue already sayd he belieues in another who sinned in another It is sayd he belieues it is of force and he is reckoned among the faythfull that are baptized This the authority of our Mother the Church hath against this stâ—eÌ„gth against this inuincible wal whosoeuer rusheth shal be crushed in pieces To this argument the Protestants in the CoÌ„ference at Ratisbon gaue this round answer Nos ab Augustino (x) See Protocoll Monac edit 2. pag. 367. hac in parte liberè dissentimus In this we plainely disagree from Augustine Now if this doctrine of baptizing Infants be not fundamentall in D. Potters sense then according to S. Augustine the infallibility of the Church extends to points not fundamentall But if on the other side it be a fundamentall point then according to the same holy Doctour we must rely on the authority of the Church for some fundamentall point not contained in Scripture but deliuered by Tradition The like argument I frame out of the same Father about the not rebaptizing of those who were baptized by Heretiques whereof he excellently to our present purpose speaketh in this manner We follow (y) lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 32. 33. indeed in this matter euen the most certaine authority of Canonicall Scriptures But how Consider his words Although verily there be brought no example for this point out of the Canonicall Scriptures yet euen in this point the truth of the same Scriptures is held by vs while we do that which the authority of Scriptures doth recommend that so because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue vs whosoeuer is afraid to be deceiued by the obscurity of this question must haue recourse to the same Church concerning it which without any ambiguity the holy Scripture doth demonstrate to vs. AmoÌ„g many other points in the aforesaid words we are to obserue that according to this holy Father when we proue some points not particulerly contained in Scripture by the authority of the Church euen in that case we ought not to be said to belieue such points without Scripture because Scripture it selfe recommends the Church and therfore relying on her we rely on Scripture without danger of being deceiued by the obscurity of any question defined by the Church And else where he sayth Seing this is (z) De vnit Eccles c. 19. written in no Scripture we must belieue the testimony of the Church which Christ declareth to speake the truth But it seemes D. Potter is of opinion that this doctrine about not rebaptizing such as were baptized by Heretiques is no necessary point of faith nor the contrary an heresy wherin he coÌ„tradicteth S. Augustine from whom we haue now
for the same reason one cannot auoide the company of a sinner and at the same time be really present with that man who is a sinner And this is our case and in this our Aduersaries are egregiously and many of them affectedly mistaken For one may in some points belieue as the Church belieueth and disagree from her in other One may loue the truth which she holds and detest her pretended corruptions But it is impossible that a man should really separate himselfe from her externall Communion as she is corrupted and be really within the same externall Communion as she is sound because she is the selfe same Church which is supposed to be sound in some things and to erre in others Now our question for the present doth concerne only this point of externall Communion because Schisme as it is distinguâ—â—hed from Heresy is committed when one diuides himselfe from the Externall Communion of that Church with which he agrees in Fayth Wheras Heresy doth necessarily imply a difference in matter of Fayth and beliefe and therfore to say that they left not the visible Church but her errors can only excuse them from Heresy which shall be tried in the next Chapter but not from Schisme as long as they are really druided from the Externall Communion of the selfe same visible Church which notwithstanding those errors wherin they do in iudgment dissent from her doth still remaine the true Catholique Church of Christ and therfore while they forsake the corrupted Church they forsake the Catholique Church Thus then it remaineth cleere that their chiefest Answere changeth the very state of the Question confoundeth internall acts of the Vnderstanding with externall Deeds doth not distinguish between Schisme and Heresy and leaues this demonstrated against them That they diuided themselues from the Communion of the visible Catholique Church because they conceaued that she needed Reformation But whether this pretence of Reformation will acquit them of Schisme I refer to the vnpartiall Iudges heretofore (n) Num. 8. alledged as to S. Irenaeus who plainely sayth They cannot make any so important REFORMATION as the Euill of the Schisme is pernicious To S. Denis of Alexandria saying Certainely all things should be indured rather then to consent to the diuision of the Church of God those Martyrs being no lesse glorious that expose themselues to hinder the dismembring of the Church then those that suffer rather then they will offer sacrifice to Idols To S. Augustine who tels vs That not to heare the Church is a more grieuous thing then if he were striken with the sword consumed with flames exposed to wild beasts And to conclude all in few wordes he giueth this generall prescription There is no iust necessity to diuide Vnity And D. Potter may remember his owne words There neither was (s) pag. 75. nor can be any iust cause to depart from the Church of Christ no more then from Christ himselfe But I haue shewed that Luther and the rest departed from the Church of Christ if Christ had any Church vpon earth Therfore there could be no iust cause of Reformation or what else soeuer to do as they did and therfore they must be contented to be held for Schismatiques 18 Moreouer I demaund whether those corruptions which moued them to forsake the Communion of the visible Church were in manners or doctrine Corruption in manners yields no sufficient cause to leaue the Church otherwise men must go not onely out of the Church but out of the world as the Apostle (t) 1. Cor. 5.10 sayth Our blessed Sauiour foretold that there would be in the Church tares with choice corne sinners with iust men If then Protestants waxe zealous with the Seruants to plucke vp the weeds let them first harken to the wisdome of the Maister Let both grow vp And they ought to imitate them who as S. Augustine saith tolerate for the (u) Ep. 162. good of Vnity that which they detest for the good of equity And to whome the more frequent and foule such scandals are by so much the more is the merit of their perseuerance in the Communion of the Church and the Martyrdome of their patience as the same Saint cals it If they were offended with the life of some Ecclesiasticall persons must they therefore deny obedience to their Pastours and finally breake with Gods Church The Pastour of Pastours teacheth vs another lesson Vpon the Chaire of Moyses (w) Mat. 33. haue sitten the Scribes Pharises All thinges therefore whatsoeuer they shall say to you obserue yee doe yee but according to their workes do yee not Must people except agaynst lawes and reuolt from Magistrates because some are negligent or corrupt in the execution of the same lawes and performance of their office If they intended Reformation of manners they vsed a strange meanes for the achieuing of such an end by denying the necessity of Confession laughing at austerity of pennance condemning the vowes of Chastity pouerty obedience breaking fasts c. And no lesse vnfit were the Men then the Meanes I loue not recrimination But it is well knowne to how great crimes Luther Caluin Zwinglius Beza and other of the prime Reformers were notorioussy obnoxious as might be easily demonstrated by the only transcribing of what others haue deliuered vpon that subiect whereby it would appeare that they were very farre from being any such Apostolicall men as God is wont to vse in so great a worke And whereas they were wont especially in the beginning of their reuolt maliciously to exaggerate the faults of some Clergy men Erasmus said well Epist ad fratres inferioris Germaniae Let the riot lust ambition auarice of Priests and whatsoeuer other crimes be gathered together Heresy alone doth exceed all this filthy lake of vices Besides nothing at all was omitted by the sacred Councell of Trent which might tend to reformation of manners And finally the vices of others are not hurtfull to any but such as imitate and consent to them according to the saying of S. Augustine We conserue (y) De vnit Eccles c. 2â— innocency not by knowing the ill deeds of men but by not yielding consent to such as we know and by not iudging rashly of such faults as we know not If you answere that not corruption in manners but the approbation of them doth yield sufficient cause to leaue the Church I reply with S. Augustine That the Church doth as the pretended Reformers ought to haue done tolerate or beare with scandals and corruptions but neither doth nor can approue them The Church sayth he being placed (z) Ep. 116. betwixt much chaffe and cockle doth beare with many things but doth not approue nor dissemble nor act those things which are against fayth and good life But because to approue corruption in manners as lawfull were an errour against Fayth it belongs to corruption in doctrine which was the second part of my demaund 19. Now then that
vniuersall Church She hath this (t) Cont. lit Petil. lib. 1. cap. 104. most certaine marke that she cannot be hidden She is then knowne to all Nations The Sect of Donatus is vnknown to many Nations therfore that cannot be she The Sect of Luther at least when he began and much more before his beginning was vnknowne to many Nations therfore that cannot be she 17. And that it may yet further appeare how perfectly Luther agreed with the Donatists It is to be noted that they neuer taught that the Catholique Church ought not to extend it selfe further then that part of Africa where their faction raigned but only that in fact it was so confined because all the rest of the Church was prophaned by communicating with Caecilianus whom they falsly affirmed to haue been ordained Bishop by those who were Traditours or giuers vp of the Bible to the Persecutors to be burned yea at that very time they had some of their Sect residing in Rome and sent thither one Victor a Bishop vnder colour to take care of their Brethren in that Citty but indeed as Baronius (u) Anno 321. nu 2. Spond obserueth that the world might account them Catholiques by communicating with the Bishop of Rome to communicate with whom was euen taken by the Ancient Fathers as an assured signe of being a true Catholique They had also as S. Augustine witnesseth a pretended (w) De Vni Eccles c. 3. Church in the howse and territory of a Spanish Lady called Lucilla who went flying out of the Catholique Church because she had been iustly checked by Caectlianus And the same Saint speaking of the conference he had with Fortunius the Donatist sayth Heere did he first (x) Ep. 163. attempt to affirme that his Communion was spread ouer the whole Earth c. but because the thing was euidently false they got out of this discourse by confusion of language wherby neuertheles they sufficiently declared that they did not hold that the true Church ought necessarily to be confined to one place but only by meere necessity were forced to yield that it was so in fact because their Sect which they held to be the only true Church was not spread ouer the world In which point Fortunius and the rest were more modest then he who should affirme that Luther's reformation in the very beginning was spead ouer the whole Earth being at that time by many degrees not so far diffused as the Sect of the Donatists I haue no desire to prosecute the similitude of Protestants with Donatists by remembring that the Sect of these men was began and promoted by the passion of Lucilla and who is ignorant what influence two women the Mother and Daughter ministred to Protestancy in England Nor will I stand to obserue their very likenes of phrase with the Donatists who called the Chaire of Rome the Chaire of pestilence and the Roman Church an Harlot which is D. Potter's owne phrase wherin he is lesse excusable then they because he maintaineth her to be a true Church of Christ therfore let him duely ponder these words of S. Augustine against the Donatists If I persecute him iustly who detracts (y) Conc. super gest cust Emeriâ— from his Neighbour why should I not persecute him who detracts from the Church of Christ and sayth this is not she but this is an Harlot And least of all will I consider whether you may not be well compared to one Ticonius a Donatist who wrote against Parmenianus likewise a Donatist who blasphemed that the Church of Christ had perished as you do euen in this your Booke write against some of your Protestant Brethren or as you call them Zelots among you who hold the very same or rather a worse Heresy and yet remained among them euen after Parmenianus had excommunicated him as those your Zealous Brethren would proceed agaynst you if it were in their power and yet like Ticonius you remaine in their Communion and come not into that Church which is hath been and shall euer be vniuersall For which very cause S. Augustin complaines of Ticonius that although he wrote against the Donatists yet he was of an hart (z) De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 30. so extremely absurd as not to forsake them alto gether And speaking of the same thing in another place he obserues that although Ticonius did manifestly confute them who affirmed that the Church had perished yet he saw not sayth this holy Father that which in good consequence (a) Cont. Parm. l. 1. cap. 1. he should haue seene that those Christians of Africa belonged to the Church spread ouer the whole world who remained vnited not with them who were diuided from the communion and vnity of the same world but with such as did communicate with the whole world But Parmenianus and the rest of the Donatists saw that consequence and resolued rather to settle their mind in obstinacy against the most manifest truth which Ticonius maintained then by yielding therto to be ouercome by those Churches in Africa which enioyed the communion of that vnity which Ticonius defended from which they had diuided themselues How fitly these words agree to Catholiques in England in respect of the Protestants I desire the Reader to consider But these and the like resemblances of Protestants to the Donatistes I willingly let passe and onely vrge the maine point That since Luthers Reformed Church was not in being for diuers Centuries before Luther and yet was because so forsooth they will needs haue it in the Apostles time they must of necessity affirme heretically with the Donatists that the true and vnspotted Church of Christ perished that she which remained on earth was O blasphemy an Harlot Moreouer the same heresy followes out of the doctrine of D. Potter and other Protestants that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall because we haue shewed that euery errour against any one reuealed truth is Heresy and damnable whether the matter be otherwise of it selfe great or small And how can the Church more truly be sayd to perish then when she is permitted to maintaine a damnable Heresy Besides we will heereafter proue that by any act of Heresy all diuine fayth is lost to imagine a true Church of faithfull persons without any fayth is as much as to fancy a liuing man without life It is therefore cleere that Donatist-like they hold that the Church of Christ perished yea they are worse then the Donatists who said that the Church remained at least in Africa whereas Protestants must of necessity be forced to grant that for a long space before Luther she was no where at all But let vs goe forward to other reasons 18. The holy Scripture and Ancient Fathers do assigne Separation from the Visible Church as a marke of Heresy according to that of S. Iohn They went out (b) 2. Ioan 19. from vs. And Some who (c) Act. 15.24 went out from
infallibility because it being euident that she is the selfe same Church which was founded by our Sauiour Christ and continued from the Apostles to this Age by a neuer interrupted succession of Pastours and faythfull people it followes that she is the Church of Christ which being once granted it is further inferred that all are obliged to haue recourse to her and to rest in her iudgement for all other particular points which cōcerne faith or Religion which we could not be obligd to doe if we were persuaded that she were subiect to errour Which yet is more euident if we add that there can be no Rule giuen in what points we should belieue her and in what not and therefore we are obliged to belieue her in all Moreouer since the true Church must be Iudge of Controuersies in fayth as we haue proued it cleerly followes that she must be infallible in all points Which vmuersall infallibility being supposed out of the generall ground of Gods prouidence which is not defectiue in things necessary we may afterward belieue the same infallibility euen by the Church herselfe when she testifies that particular point of her owne infallibility As the Scripture cannot giue Testimony to it selfe till first it be belieued to be Gods word yet this being once presupposed it may afterward giue Testimony to it selfe as S. Paul affirmeth that All Scripture is diuinely (u) 2. Tim. 3.16 inspired c. Secondly I answere that the Church hath many wayes declared her owne infallibility which she professeth euen in the Apostles Creed I belieue the holy Catholique Church For she could not be holy if she were subiect to error in matters of fayth which is the first foundation of all sanctity she could not be Catholique or Vniuersal for all Ages if at any time she could erre and be Author that the whole world should erre in points reuealed by God she could not be One or Apostolicall as she professeth in another Creed if she were diuided in points of fayth or could swarue from the Doctrine of the Apostles she could not be alwayes existent and visible because euery error in fayth destroies all Fayth the Church So that while the Church and euery faythfull person belieues professes the Sanctity Vniuersality Vnity and Perpetuall Visibility of the Church she and they belieue proclaime her infallibility in all matters of fayth which she doth also auouch by accursing all such as belieue not her definitions and while in all occasions of emergent Controuersies she gathers Councels to determine them without examining whether they concerne points fundamentall or not fundamentall while in all such holy Assemblies she sayth with the first Councell It hath (w) Act. 15. seemed to the holy Ghost and vs while she proposeth diuers points to be belieued which are not contained in Scripture as that those who are baptized by Heretiques cannot without sacriledge be rebaptized that Baptisme of Infants is lawfull that Easter is to be kept at a certaine time against the Heretiques called Quartadecimani that the Blessed Virgin the most Immaculate Mother of God was eternally a most pure Virgin that such particular Matter and Forme is necessary for the validity of Sacraments that such particular Bookes Chapters and lines are the word of God with diuers such other points of all which we may say that which S. Augustine said about Rebaptization of Heretiques The obscurity of this Question (x) Lib. 1. cont Donat cap. 7. before the schisme of Donatus did so mooue mon of great note and Fathers and Bishops endued with great Charity to debate and doubt without breach of peace that for a long time in seuerall Regions there were diuers and doubtfull decrees till that which was truly belieued was vndoubtedly established by a full Councell of the whole world And yet the point declared in that Councell was neither fundamentall in your sense nor contained in Scripture And to the same effect are the words of S. Ambrose who speaking of the Heretiques condemned in the Councell of Nice sayth that They were not condemned by humane (y) Lib. 1. defid ad Gratian cap. 5. industry but by the authority of those Fathers as likewise the last Generall Councell of Trent defines That it belongs to the Church (z) 1. Sess 4. to iudge of the true sense and interpretation of Scripture which must needs suppose her infallibility And lastly the thirst that euery one who desires to saue his soule feeles in his soule to find out the true Church and the quiet which euery one conceiues he shall enioy if once he find her shewes that the very sense and feeling of all Christians is that the Church is infallible For otherwise what great comfort could any wiseman conceiue to be incorporated in a Church which is conceiued to be subiect to error in matters of fayth 21. For want of better arguments you also alledge (a) pag. 161. some Authors within the Roman Church of great learning as you say who haue declared their opinion that any particular Churchs and by consequence the Roman any Councels though Generall may erre But though that which you affirme were true it would fall short of prouing that the Catholique Church is not infallible in all points For besides particular Churches or Generall Councels there is the common Consent of all Catholiques knowne by perpetuall sacred Tradition and there is likewise the continued Succession of Bishops and Pastors in which if one should place an vniuersall infallibility it were sufficient to ouerthrow your assertion of the fallibility of the Church And euen your selfe teach that the Church is infallible in all fundamentals and yet you affirme that any particular or Generall Councell may erre euen to Heresy or Fundamentall and Damnable errours And therfore you must grant that according to your Principles it is one thing to say Generall Councels may erre and another that the Catholique Church may erre But yet for the thing it selfe it is a matter of fayth that true Generall Councels confirmed by the Pope cannot erre And if any hold the contrary he cannot be excused except by ignorance or inaduertence And as for the Romane Authors which you cite Occham is no competent witnes both because that worke of his dialogues which you cite is condemned and because he himselfe was a knowne enemy and rebellious against the sea Apostolique Besides the words which you cite out of him against the Authority of Councels are not his opinion but alledged for arguments sake for so he professeth expresly in the very preface of that worke and often repeats it that he doth not intend to deliuer any opinion of his owne Thirdly wheras he alledgeth reasons for and against Councels he alledgeth but fine against them and seauen for them Lastly before he comes to dispute against Councels he doth in two seuerall (b) Dialog lib. 5.1 part cap. 25. c. 28. places in the very beginning of those Chapters of which