these more certaine rules helps to finde out the true sence first that the true Grāmaticall sence of the words and speech vsed by the holy ghost bee soundly and rightly vnderstoode by sound knowledge of Grammer Rhetoricke for the natiue signification of the words and vse of the phrase whereunto much helpeth conference of translation with translation of all transtations if neede be with the originall tongues Secondly that diligent consideration be had of the circumstances of the text in hand as namely what is the matter scope thereof vpon what occasion it was vttered who vttered it to whom where when Thirdly that it be taken in such a sence as will agree best with these circumstances and stand well with all other places of scripture And lastly that no sence be admitted but that which will stand with the sound proportion and summe of Christian faith and good maners taught vs plainely elsewhere in the scriptures By these rules we doubt not but to iustifie approue that to be the true sence of the scriptures which we take them in either for the confirmation of the trueth which we holde or for the confutation of the errours which you defend And such rules they are as the ancient fathers in defending the ancient Catholique faith against heretiques haue alwaies vsed and no other as appeareth in their workes And such they are as Augustine in his bookes of Christiā doctrine doeth prescribe as most necessary in this case to be followed as no mā can or ought to make any exception against And yet such they are as would anone discouer the ridiculous vanity of your interpretatiōs in any controuersie betwixt vs and you For example let vs try here by your interpretation of Hoc est corpus meū which to be soūd you will liue and die in By what grammer or by helpe of what tongue or translation shall the word Est is be all one with transubstantiatur in is transubstantiated into Sure I am in no language nor in anie Dictionarie shall you euer finde the verbe Substātiue takē in that sense Secondly the matter in hand when those words were vttered was a sacrament Christ spake them to his Apostles at his last supper to the ende to institute a sacrament to continue a duetifull remembrance of his death vntill his second comming What reason is there then to the contrarie but that this speech should be taken as the like speech alwaies els hath beene and yet is in other Sacramentes Where Est is neuer taken coupling the signe and the thing signed togither whereof a Sacrament consisteth as you doe here for It is turned into but for signifieth which standeth also well with the nature of a Sacrament whereas yours ouerthroweth the nature thereof in so annihilating or transubstantiating of the signe that you leaue no signe to beare any analogie of the thing resembled which is the ground of such Sacramentall phrases Thirdly your sence agreeth not with the rest of the scriptures not onely in that in the whole bodie of the Scriptures you cannot finde Est Is placed as it is here betwixt two thinges of diuerse kindes as breade and body be taken in your sence and yet in such propositious you finde it vsually taken for it signifieth or representeth but also in that the scripture for all that speech calleth it bread still euen whiles it is in eating 1. Corin. 10. 11. cap. and expoundeth the eating thereof to bee a communion or partaking with or of the body of Christ and that spirituall not by corporall cōiunction 1. Cor. 10. Lastly your interpretation for the bringing in establishing of a corporall reall eating of Christ with the mouth of the bodie which is a thing neuer taught vs in the word but such a kinde of feeding on him as you your selues confesse Iudas and such may atteine vnto and be neuer the better shaketh yea subuerteth al those articles that concerne Christs true manhoode making him to haue euen for that needles presence sake a body without any of the essential and inseparable properties of a body yea at one selfesame time to haue a body visible sensible and locall in heauen yet inuisible insensible and without dimentions of place in earth Besides it is against good maners which forbiddeth eating of mans flesh and drinking of his bloud either openly or secretly couered vnder or in another thing And truely Auerroes had some reason of all men in the world to thinke such Christians as you the most sauage and foolish that first would fal downe worship a peece of bread for your God whē you haue so done eate him vp and deuour him Howsoeuer you please your selues in this interpretation and in your imagination grounded thereupon I am fully perswaded that this your multitude of images and idols are two of the principall causes whereby you haue hardened the hearts both of the Turkes and Iewes against Christiā Religion And as I haue read some of them haue to some of your fellowes being in hand to perswade them to turne frō their Religion to yours yeelded these two reasons why they thought yours worse then their owne and consequently as sufficient cause why they would not yeelde to yours Now if I should but barely recite a number of other your interpretations and collections of the scripture which yet with you go for very sound and Catholique interpretations collections I am sure it were sufficient to make euery reader thereof that hath anie witte or discrecion left him to thinke that there were neuer heretiques in the world that haue more fondly vainely interpreted the scriptures then you For example let the reader marke these for a tast God made two great lights the sunne the moone that is the Pope the Emperour therefore as many degrees as the moone is inferiour to the sonne is the Emperour inferiour to the Pope Innocēt de Maioritate obediēt Glossa Ibid. Peter saied he had two swords that is the tēporall spirituall sword therfore the Pope hath both powers Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the councell of Trent blusheth not to apply to the Pope these words The Pope the light is come vnto the world men loue darknes more then light Euery one the euill doeth hateth the light commeth not to the light least his deedes be reproued Yea Paulus Aemilius in his 7. booke testifieth that the Pope suffred the Legates of Cicilia being prostrate before him to say vnto him Qui tollis peccata mundi Thou which takest away the sins of the world haue mercy vpon vs Thou which takest away the sins of the world graūt vs peace thus blasphemously applying that to the Pope which belongeth to Christ But you will say these were but the popes flatterers that made these expositiōs applications What then they were made vttered wtout checke yea to the liking of the Pope And a picture once
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for