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A65879 The principal controversies between the litteral presbyters of the Kirk of Scotland, and the illuminated members of the Church of Christ, called Quakers· Truly collected, stated and opened, in a particular reply (herein specified) for general information and undeceiving the deceived. By an earnest contender for the most holy faith, which was once delivered to the saints. G. W. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1672 (1672) Wing W1947; ESTC R217169 70,788 112

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who plead for continuance of sin and lusts in them which if they alwayes be to continue here and cannot be abstained from as thou intimatest then to what purpose was it for Peter to exhort them to abstain from them especially if he had been of thy faith that they could not or had not power to abstain from lust c. But herein thou hast sufficiently discovered whose servant thou art Pr. When they are Believers and begotten they are so freed that the evil one cannot touch them Answ. Much less lead them into Sin or keeps up the reigning power of it in them so long as they live This contradicts all thy corrupt Pleas and Arguments for Sin Pr. They do not fulfil its Lusts as to continue in Sin wilfully and deliberately without repentance yet they are not freed from Sin wholly Answ. Yes wholly when the wicked one hath not power to touch them But thy saying they do not fulfil its Lusts as to continue in Sin wilfully without repentance now may not this be taken that they do continue in Sin Lusts but not wilfully without repentance But do they Sin wilfully with repentance Hast thou cleared Gods Children herein Whereas such as walk after the spirit shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh but are in that which mortifyes the vile affections and desires and subjects the whole man to the will of God Viz. to Righteousness and Holyness Pr. In many things we offend all Answ. But not in Christ the one thing for he that abides in him sinneth not Pr. To be unblamable Is that Grace Is universal in all parts of the renewed man though not absolute c. to be unblameable and unreproveable may stand with Sins of infirmity Answ. To be unblameable is to Live as the Grace teacheth namely To deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live godly and soberly in this present world For Sin and Ungodliness is blameable and reproveable wherever it is it being contrary to the Grace and its teaching which is absolute as well as universal in the renewed man and is not consistent with Sin nor imperfect as you Priests of Scotland have rendered Grace Faith c. as they among you formerly that cursed every one that saith Faith is without Sin and would have all the people to say Amen to it wherein your blind zeal out-runs your understandings and made you discover your folly and madness to set people on cursing yea to curse such as held the Truth contrary to that Doctrine bless and curse not Pr. In the Book of Common Prayer there is a promise To forsake the Devil and all his Works the vain Pomp and Glory of the world and Sinful Lusts of the flesh and be led by Gods Spirit to keep his Commandments Many of those who promise may do this and keep it in the sence the Scripture holds that is that they shall disallow purpose and endeavour against those ills Answ. So Here thou hast justified these promises and many of those who promise as keeping it that is sayest thou they shall disallow purpose and endeavour against those ills as if that purpose were a forsaking the Devil and all his Works c. the Sinful Lusts of the flesh a keeping Gods Commandments c. when as thou hast denyed that any may attaine to such a state but they must purpose and endeavour after it when as the promise is absolute to forsake all sin Viz. all the Works of the Devil and to walk in the Commandments of God all their life What a medly hast thou made here like the time-serving Priests that vindicate the Common prayer and Episcopacy after they have denyed it and many of them covenanted against it We thought that the Priests and Kirk of Scotland had been more zealous and sincere in their way against the Episcopal Traditions then thou hast here appeared Will the rest of thy Brethren of the Kirk of Scotland own thee in this matter Or art thou their mouth that thou takest upon thee to be such a contender for the pure Protestant Religion as thou callest it But is that any part of your Religion to tell of God-fathers and God-mothers And to cause t●em to promise and vow in the Infants name and for the I●fa●t as its surety to forsake the Devil and all his Wor●s c. all ●he Sinful Lusts and desires of the flesh and to keep G●ds holy Will and Commandments when you do not believe it possible so to do in this Life Pr. As many who are commended for keeping his Commands their Sins and Failings are not-with-standing recorded Answ. Sins and Failings are not consistent with keeping Gods Commandments Sin being a transgression of the Law which when transgressed and failed of keeping it is not kept then nor the blameless state stood in Pr. You with gross subtilty bear out this sence That he who at his death is made holy is made holy somtimes before his death Ans. He is sometime a dying before dead if at their death be upon their death or dying as thou sayest yea some are many houres having the symptomes and pangs of death upon them before they are dead and in this sence I supposed thou intendest by saying at their death they are freed c. that it was upon their dying when the throws or pangs of death are upon them or when we commonly say a person is a dying when he breathes very weakly faintly and sometimes with short breathings a little before breath is quite gone and then there must needs be a little space in this Life before the person is quite dead Pr. You might as well infer if one should say that at his death his Soul aod Body are separate that he said they are separate sometime before his death at his death is meant immediatly upon his dying Ans. A false inference put upon my words which doth not at all follow for when the Soul and Body are separate or the Soul is gone out of the Body this is after death now upon dying is not after death for when the Body is without the Spirit it is dead so if thou wilt have it that when the Soul and Body are separate the Beleiver is then free from sin t is not in this Life and then Where 's the Popes Purgatory And who is now guilty of damnable Popery Is this your pure Protestant Religion Pr. I never found but that they Viz. our Brethren said Beleivers Souls either at their death which is immediately upon their death or after death are made perfectly holy and received into glory Answ. Upon dying and after death are two things so it appears still you are devided somewhat in this point s●me of you saying upon their dying Beleivers are made perfectly holy others say after death however by this we may observe that your Doctrine tends to make people serve the Devil by living in sin so long as they have any time and str●ngth to do any service for him that is till
which gave them forth and to him whom they testify of to wit Christ by whom they are to be fulfilled unto the true believer that reads them in a right mind and Spirit Secondly But where having Life in them Viz. in the Scriptures is laid down as following believing This is an error depending upon the former and a contradiction to the Scripture that saith That believing ye might have Life through his name he doth not say in the Scriptures nor by searching them but through his name of whom they testify and those to whom these things were written that they might beleive that Jesus is the Christ c. and have Life through his name They were in some measure prepared by the Spirit or Light of Christ allready manifested to receive those things which tend●d to the furtherance of their Faith and confirmation of their Belief concerning Christ that they might have life through his name Pr Whoso holdeth this denieth them really and interpretatively Answ. Is this thy proof of thy false accusation against us of denying the Scriptures that we deny them interpretatively so then our denying the Priests Interpretations upon Scripture which are not Scripture must be deemed a denial of Scriptures as if they were either the same or of equall authority with Scripture or when they tell us of finding Life in the Scriptures we must take it for gran●ed that they mean in their Interpretations upon them whereby in many things they contradict plain Scripture as hath been proved any times so however when they bid People search the Scriptures for Life Eternal in them they intend they should take their meanings along with them and believe as they say and so people must run into an implicite Faith if they take things on their Authority and Credit for by their meanings and Interpretations they can sit as Judges over Scriptures and tell people they must give the sence and reconcile them and over the Lig●t and Spirit within and tell them its but an Enthusiastick Fancy but who are not so Ign●ble as to receive a Belief or Faith from them on such a dark implicite and slender account as this of Priests But wait in the Light of Christ within for a right understanding of things that are Spiritual relating to Faith and Salvation Such find they have cause from the certain demonstration and testimony of the Spirit of Truth within to believe Christs Light and Spirit rather then the Priests meanings and private Interpretations wrestings and perverting of Scriptures Priest It is not about the expression of the Word of God that debate should be kept up if in a sound sence granted that they are called the Words of God Answ. So Then the Scriptures are granted to be words of God why then holdst thou debate against us but to shew thy cavilling Spirit For the Word was that from whence words and Scriptures proc●eded and came to the Prophets and Messengers of God before they spoke the words to Write them Priest Ye deny that Faith cometh by hearing of the Scriptures which is the Word of God for that we receiving them by Faith are saved which is plainly asserted Joh. 5.39 Answ. We deny that Faith comes barely by hearing the Scriptures for if it did so come then all that hear or read Scriptures must have Faith and hear the Word but we see the contrary and Christ told the Jewes they could not understand what he said because they could not hear his words and yet they could hear Scriptures and him speak outwardly to them But this is a mistery hid from such as thou art and there were those whom the Word Preached did not profit b●cause it was not mixt with Faith in them Priest Your selves acknowledg that they are the words of God then this or that perticular saying is the Word of God seeing there is a singular where there is a plural Answ. But Singular and Plural differs and though there be a Singular included where there is a Plural is it therefore good Logick to say that Singular includes Plural or they are both one Or to sa● that because there are Words of God in the Scriptures and where there are words in the Plural there must needs be a word in the Singular therefore these words are the Word and so are the Scriptures Is this thy L●arning and Logick Surely thou art so far from knowing the Word which lives for ever and was before either the Scriptures or words in it were given out that thou art yet as one senceless and confounded in thy expressions and cavilling against ●ruth Priest The Scriptures in the Bible are called the Word of God Mark 7.13 Answ. This is a very general expression of the Scriptures in the Bible being the Word of God when they do not say so of themselves whereas all the Scriptures in the Bible are so far from terming themselves the Word of God in such an eminent expression that they cannot all be truely termed his Words there being in many places Recorded both words of Wicked men and Devils though the Historical part that relates these things be true as to the narration of them And they Mark 7.13 that made the word of God of none effect by their Tradition and rejected his Commandment did really act contrary to the Word within which Moses preached and against the Law of God without so that 's no proof of the Scriptures in the Bible being called the Word Priest That which maketh wise to Salvation or maketh the man of God perfect c. is inspired of God that is the Word of God which maketh wise profiteth 2 Tim. 3.15 Answ. Here again hast thou fallen short of proof of thy matter for where it is said All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God c. Is is added So it 's All Scripture given by inspiration But if that must be called the Word of God in thy sence then it may be read All the Word of God is given by Inspiration of God How will that sound and signify Or All the Word of God given by inspiration of God c. See thy ignorance and impertinency for though we grant that all Scripture given by Divine Inspiration is profitable to the man of God for the making Wise to Salvation but it is through Faith which words through Faith I find the● to have taken little notice of if any or of his being the man of God first that knows the profit of the Scriptures which are given by Inspiration that he may be Perfect which the Priests deny in denying Perfection and that he may be thorowly furnished And many things were written and directed to the Saints and not to the world c. But what thou concludest from hence doth not follow Priest Is there any Prophesie almost or Book of the Scripture but it calleth the things contained in them the Word of God Thus saith the Lord c. Answ. For as was hinted there are many things written in the Scripture