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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06347	An excellent and plaine discourse of the church, whereby the godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church, from the Romish Church, and all other false and counterfet churches, as well for matters of doctrine, as discipline, &c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque, a godlie minister of Dolphenine. And faithfully translated into English, by M.T.W. Seene and allowed; Traité de l'eglise. English	Loque, Bertrand de.; T. W. (Thomas Wilcox), 1549?-1608.	1582 (1582)	STC 16813; ESTC S103377	172,896	422

because hee serueth him selfe with Princes tyrants and wicked Magistrates and vseth them that hee may by them punishe the vngodlinesse and vnthankefulnesse of his people Wherefore Isaiah speaketh excellently well That our iniquities haue made a diuision or separated betweene God and vs. Isaiah 59.2 And therefore when wee are afflicted and persecuted wee ought to confesse and acknowledge that God by that meane punishe vs as wee indeede haue rightly deserued it Yet all this notwithstanding wee haue to consider and weigh an other cause for which the worlde persecuteth vs whiche ought to be a great comfort vnto vs in the middest of our Crosse and Martyrdome For in the first place the worlde in persecuting vs looketh not to our sinnes but to that religion which wee make profession of which religion indeede the world reiecteth and persecuteth because it knoweth not the authour thereof and because it is altogether contrary to his maners and peruerse and wicked orders of life and conuersation euen as Iesus Christe hath foretolde the same and made his Disciples to see it Ioh. 3.19 20. when he said vnto them This is the condemnatiō that light is come into the world and men loued darknesse rather then the light because their deedes were euill For euery man that euill doth hateth the light neither commeth to light Iohn 15.20 21. least his deedes should bee reproued Also if they haue persecuted me they will persecute you also But all these thinges will they doe vnto you for my names sake because they haue not knowne him that sent me And againe Iohn 17.14 Father I haue given them thy word the world hath hated them because they are not of the world as I am not of the worlde Hereby we may see that the right and verie cause of the persecutiōs of the church is the plaine profession of the trueth righteousnes worde of God as S. Paul saith That That all they whiche will liue in the feare of God or godly in Christe Iesus 2. Tim. 3.12 shall suffer persecution And also what shoulde bee our consolation and comforte in the middest of the crosse if this point were not Socrates The answere which Socrates made to his wife was very apt and fit for the purpose shee lamented because they put him to death wrongfully but hee beeing somewhat moued answered That it was better for him to die an innocent without cause than if he had offēded But how much greater matter and iust cause haue wee of comfort and ioy seeing wee knowe that God of his vnspeakeable gentlenesse goodnesse mercy burying all our sins giueth vs ouer and leaueth vs but for a time to suffer vniust persecutions to the end that we bearing the Crosse with Iesus Christ shoulde communicate also and bee made partakers of glory with him The punishment Saint Augustine hath saide maketh not a Martyre but the cause August And the Diuell hath as well his witnesses and Martyrs as Iesus Christ hath his In former times there were Heretikes whiche bragged much and boasted wonderously vnder the shadow colour that men persecuted them And at this day the Anabaptists do in that behalfe the very selfe same thing yea and that so farre that by this meanes they account them selues blessed and happie But we must marke what the scripture saith Mat. 5.10 Blessed are they thus saieth Iesus Christe whiche suffer persecution for righteousnes sake for theirs is the kingdom of heauē Luke 6.22 Blessed are you when men hate you whē they separate you reuile you put out your names as euill for the sonne of mās sake If yee bee railed vpon for the name of Christ saith Saint Peter 1 Pet. 4. 14.15 ●6 Blessed are yee For the spirite of glory and of God resteth vpon you which on their part is euill spoken of but on your part is glorified But let none of you suffer as a murtherer or as a theefe or as an euill dooer or as a couetous person of other mens goods or as a busie bodie in other mens matters But if any man suffer as a Christian let him not bee ashamed but let him glorifie God in this behalfe And this is the marke or badge by which the scripture discerneth the Lordes true Martyres from others that suffer For the wicked men and vngodlye persons doe in deede suffer persecution but in the meane season it so falleth out that they cannot boast thē selues for all that to bee true Martyres neither by consequent that they are blessed for they suffer not for righteousnesse sake neither to maintaine Gods truth as doe the Martyres and witnesses of Iesus Christ Moreouer wee ought to marke that our good God sheweth vs great grace aduaunceth vs to singular honour when hee vouchsafeth vs meete and worthie to suffer any thing for his names sake when as he might very iustly if he would haue pursued vs with rigour nay if hee woulde haue proceeded against vs by iustice haue punished vs with all kindes and sortes of afflictions sending them to vs and laying the same vpon vs wherein he dealeth with vs as if a king should take from the Gibbet or Gallows some man who had rightly deserued to be bound thereto and hanged thereon and yet would set and appoint him among the chiefe Captaines of his orders that he might goe to warre and imploy him for the maintenance and defence of his crowne of his kingdom For who or what are wee Poore wormes of the earth dwelling heere in filthinesse and corruption and infected with so many spottes as nothing more than we yea wee are abhominable sinners who haue rightly deserued not onely by tyrantes in this life to bee persecuted in our goods and bodies but also to bee for euer lost drowned and swallowed vp in the Diuels possession in hell and yet notwithstanding that God hath vouchsaued vs worthie of this honour to vse our life and our death to withstande his enemies and to mainetaine and aduaunce his glorie by our Martirdome If wee had but so muche as one drop of good iudgement and were pushed on forwarde with as little right zeale as may bee to serue our God shoulde not this kindle and inflame vs in a singuler and wonderfull desire to imploy bestow our selues in the maintenance of his honour whatsoeuer assaultes should bee set before vs and to keepe our selues strong and stedfast in the middest of persecutions that we might suffer abide the same couragiously and chearfully for the name of Christ The ninth point What bee the endes which God respecteth and regardeth in the persecutions and afflictions of his Church and of his faithful people wherof wee will marke and put downe eight First that the glorie of God might bee aduaunced For it is said Prou. 16.4 The Lord hath made all thinges for his owne sake and glory yea euen the wicked for the day of euil When the Disciples asked Iesus Christ

liued vnder Domitian and euen vnto Traian his dayes Nowe if they of the Church of Rome will say that the Popes whiche succeeded Saint Peter were the heads of the church to whom all the rest of the Bishoppes ought to bee subiecte they must of necessitie be driuen to confesse that S. Iohn was subiect to Linus to Cletus and to Clemens Moreouer if S. Peters successors be the heades of the Churche Clemens who succeeded him in the third place as they say was so likewise But let vs heare what hee himselfe saith in an Epistle which as some say he writ to Iames Bishop of Hierusalem The title or inscription is this Clemens Tom. 1. concil pag. 135. col 2. to Iames the Lordes brother Bishop of Bishops gouernour of the Churche of Hierusalem and of all other Churches which by the prouidence of God are throughout all the worlde If Clemens were the vniuersall Bishop why did hee spoyle him selfe of his owne titles to attribute ascribe and giue the same vnto Iames to whome they did not belong Furthermore who is hee that hath lifted vp the Pope into this goodly degree of honour Is it Iesus Christe or his Apostles No in deede for wee reade that Bonifacius the thirde of that name Bishop of Rome was by the Emperour Phocas ordayned the firste souereigne or chiefe of all Christendome and the Church of Rome established heade of all the Churches in the world and this was about the yere of Christ sixe hundred and foure This Phocas as the historie writers rehearse and record was a traitor and an vnfaithful murderer of the Emperor Mauritius his master for as the said Mauritius at a certaine time shewed him selfe ouer seuere and rigorous against his souldiers they being giuen to debate and contention chose Phocas for Emperour who in Calcedonia immediately caused to be cut off the forenamed Mauritius his owne heade his wiues also and his three sonnes named Theodorus Tiberius and Constantine But hee receiued his paiment and reward for it afterwards For hauing reigned eight yeares he was at the laste slaine by the common people in the yeare of Christ 612. Beholde and marke by whom the primacie of the Romish Church was established and the Romane byshoppe made an vniuersall bishop there beeing before not so muche as anye newes of it For as concerning a certain Edict or decree which they alledge by which Constantine the greate a Christian Emperor gaue vnto Siluester the bishop of Rome aboute the yeare of Christ 317 spirituall domination and gouernement ouer all the Churches of the whole worlde also the iewels and kingly ornaments yea the Empire it selfe and politike gouernement ouer all the West partes it is a writing found and forged for and at their pleasure ful of lyings also and falshoods which may be easily proued by these reasons There are none of all the approued historiographers during certaine ages which make mention thereof after any sorte as Eusebius Eutropius Ruffinus Socrates Theodoretus Beda Euagrius Paulus Diaconus Zonaras Nicephorus Orosius eyther other the like yea they whiche haue written the liues of the Emperours and Popes haue not any whitte at all spoken thereof No more haue the auncient Doctours Athanasius Basilius Saint Ambrose Gregorie Nissenus Gregorius Nazianzenus Optatus Mileuitanus Saint Augustine Chrysostome whiche is more the Bishops of Rome them selues haue not saide any thing thereof no not in Councelles when they haue taken vpon them the care and charge to maintaine their primacie whiche woulde notwithstanding haue been a good buckler and shield of defence for them If Constantine gaue to the Romane Bishop the primacie ouer Constantinople Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and all other Churches what reason had he to suffer in the councel of Nice whereat hee him selfe was president that the contrary should there be determined and concluded Concil Nic. Can. 6. habetur tom 1. Concil pag. 342. For in that Councell it was concluded that the Bishop of Rome shoulde not bee preferred before the Bishop of Alexandria or of Antioch or of Hierusalem If the foresaid Emperour ordained that the Bishop of Rome shoulde bee helde and taken for the head of all the Churches of the worlde wherefore then did Bonifacius demaunde and seeke the same of Phocas whereas he shoulde rather haue required to haue kept the same to him selfe and his successors which was long before graunted by Constantine to his predecessors With what conscience woulde Constantine giue vnto Siluester lordshippe and gouernment ouer the Churches and the Empire hee him selfe beeing a Christian and therefore by consequent knowing very wel that there was a destinction and difference betweene the office of the Pastours of the Churche and the charge and duetie of Magistrates Eusebius euen as Eusebius witnesseth of him that hee was accustomed to say that the Lorde had giuen and committed the inwarde charge of the Churche to the elders ministers but the outwarde to him If wee woulde consider Siluester with what conscience also coulde hee accepte the sayde donation or gift the vse whereof as he well inough knewe Iesus Christe had forbidden him Luk. 22.25 Mat. 22.21 for hee was not ignorant of this sentence The kinges of the nations beare rule c. but it shall not bee so amongest you Also Giue vnto Caesar the thinges whiche are Caesars Wherefore seeing that Iesus Christ hath distinguished the offices of the Magistrates and the charges of the pastors of the Church Siluester did very yll to confounde and iumble them together in his owne person Yea also there is a certaine Canon to this purpose Distinct 96. Can. Quū ad Nico c. auouched and alledged vnder the name of a Pope that these offices are distinguished by Iesus Christ If so be that Constantine gaue the empire of the west partes to Siluester they must say that Siluester possessed the same and left it to his successors and that if his successors doe not any longer hold it they must say that they haue beene thrust and driuen out of the possession thereof But let them shewe if they can any matter touching this point in the histories Verilye so far is it that Siluester those which succeeded him euen vnto Hildebrande who was named Gregorie the seuenth and was created Pope about the yeare of Christe one thousande seuentie foure did holde the Empire of the West that indeede they had not rule or authoritie ouer the Citie of Rome but did peaceably and quietlye acknowledge the Emperors for their Lords and were subiect to their lawes neither was there at any time a Pope chosen or created without the authoritie of the Emperour The change came in in the time of the foresaide Gregorie It is about fiue hundred yeres agoe since the Popes haue by little little incroched vpon the Empire haue at the last brought into their subiection the Citie of Rome and since they did accomplishe that there is not passed aboue a hundred threescore and nine

abolish the name either of Christ or of his church Hereby therfore it appeareth that we denie nor but that the Churches ouer whiche hee beareth rule by his tyrannie remaine Churches still but wee say that hee hath prophaned them by his vngodlinesse and so poysoned them by his false doctrines that there appeareth amongest them a picture or image of Babylon rather than of the holy citie of God To conclude we say that they be Churches first because that the Lord hath myraculously preserued amongest them the remnants of his people though they be poorely and thinly scattered abroad Secondly because there remaine amongest them some markes and rokens of the Church specially these tokens the power and effectualnesse whereof cannot be abolished neither by the craft of the Diuell neither by the malice of mē But on the other side because the markes which we haue principally to regard in this dispute or question bee blotted out there we say that there is not amongest them a right shewe and lawfull forme of a Church neither in any of their particular assemblies neither in the whole body And these are the woordes of Caluine But though we might in deede accorde and agree to this that the Romish Churche were the true Church in respect of the baptisme which it hath yet there should be no reason to inferre thereupon that we ought also to take and hold it for the true church in respect of the other points of doctrine for it is most manifest that for the moste parte they are altogether contrarie to the expressed word of God And as concerning baptisme albeit they adde many vaine and superstitious Ceremonies ministred in a tongue vnknowne to the people and not vnderstood of them yet so it is that notwithstanding the substance remaineth and that which is the principall or chiefe point of the forme as we haue shewed Nowe if one would demaund why then suffer wee not our infants to be brought to the Romish Church there to bee baptised seeing that the baptisme which is there ministred is good I aunswere that wee suffer it not because God hath giuen vs grace to knowe the superstition and idolatrie which is there committed 1. Cor. 10.14 1. Ioh. 5.21 to whiche wee may not at any hande sticke cleaue or consent whatsoeuer appearance and shewe of good wee suppose may come thereby either to vs or to our children For Saint Paule saith Rom. 3.8 That we ought carefully to looke vnto our selues not to doe euill that good may come thereof And also because that through Gods grace and goodnes we haue a meane and way opened to haue our foresaid children baptized in the refourmed Churches without any abuse error superstition or idolatrie They will say yet further that Iesus Christ ceased not to approue and allow the Church of Ierusalem in his time though it had in it store of errours which hee well declared when hee was there present at the sacrifices and feastes Wherefore then doe not wee approue also the Romishe church althogh it haue errors in it For if a church shall for some abuses faultes or errors loose the name of the true Churche where shall wee then finde one alone in the whole worlde I aunswere firste that wee holde not that a true Churche looseth the name of a true Church for some abuses or errors therein For S. Paule left not of to name the faithfull people of Corinthus the Church although he blamed and reproued them for many errors and corruptions not onely in respect of their manners but also concerning their doctrine And we shall see hereafter that particuler Churches are neuer so perfect in this worlde but that they bee oftentimes subiect to error and goe astray But wee rightly hold and affirme that the Romish Church ought to leese the name of a true Churche because shee hath degenerated and gone out of kinde from the auncient and Catholike Churche For the true auncient and Catholike Churche cleaueth to her only heade and husbande Iesus Christ shee beleeueth his worde and followeth him she is faithfull to him without committing adulterie with idols which the Romishe churche doeth not which thing we haue a little while agoe shewed Secondly as concerning that that Iesus Christ did approue the churche of Ierusalem in his time we say in the first place that there is very great difference betweene the estate of that church then as it was and the estate of the Romishe church such a one as we beholde it at this day For the abuse and corruption as well of doctrine as of Sacraments the manifest Idolatry which beareth sway at this present in the Romish church was not at that time in the church of Ierusalem Which is easie to proue because that Iesus Christ would not haue made much a doe to beat downe the idols and to reforme other abuses if they had had place there as hee ouerthrewe the tables of the money changers Ioh. 2.14 and cast out of the temple those that there sold openly sheepe and Doues Moreouer Iesus Christe woulde not reiect or disalowe the churche of Ierusalem because that the time was not yet come wherein hee shoulde put an ende vnto the ceremonies of the lawe Leuit. 17.3 Deut. 12..13 Wherefore for as much as the faithfull had the commandement of God whereby it was appointed them not to searche or seeke newe places to offer their sacrifices and oblations in but to come and to stay them selues within the Court of the tabernacle or of the temple Iesus Christe woulde not despise this place But wee knowe that whatsoeuer corruption was there no faithfull man was inforced to cleaue or sticke to any superstitious manner or custome whiche is not practised at this day in the Churche of Rome For as all there is full of superstition and manifest idolatrie so they will constraine and inforce the faithfull by fire and sworde to consent thereto and to pollute and defile themselues therewith against their owne consciences and Gods expresse forbidding Lastly to what point did Iesus Christe bring the Church of Ierusalem when the high Priestes Scribes and Pharisees shewed them selues great madde men not doeing their duties towardes it did hee not take his vineyard from these husbandmē who did not giue him the fruites which belonged vnto him and committed the same vnto others that is to his Apostles and their successours to yeeld him fruite in their seasons Euen so likewise hath the Lorde doone therewith in the Popedome Hee hath not destroyed his Churche but hath only chaunged the estate thereof taking it out of the hand and guiding of the Bishops and Popishe Priestes and placing it againe vnder the gouernement and charge of other guiders and leaders who can see more cleerely and bee of better trust as it is spoken in Saint Matthewe Mat. 22.40 vnder the similitude or parable of the vineyard To conclude if they aske what shall become then of our predecessours who dyed in the faith