ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies that the greatest papist in the world would not aske more fauor in the questioÌ„ aÌ„d cause of theÌ„ First if the Scripture doth alow anie order or fashioÌ„ it is not vaine If the whole Church hath generally receiued ani it is not vaine If it be but a particular Ceremony of one couÌ„trie and be not agaiÌ„st the faith or good maners it is not vaine Yea if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life it is not vaine By so many waies and for so many causes a ceremony maie wel continue as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Augustin Epi. 119. c. 18. 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of ceremonies as though he would haue as few as you What Sacrament haue you about which ye doe occupie oile What thinke you of the fast of lent What of Alleluia betwixt Easter and Witsontide What vse haue you of any Octaues Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ceremonies he maketh mentioÌ„ in the foresaied Epistle and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded Gregory c. if the Church saieth he shall depend vppon one man Apolog. it will at once fal doune to the ground Ye belie him shamfully he hath no such words at al. Conf. 203 Yet the protestaÌ„t may think this impossible that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye Let him seeke then if he be learned and iudge by his owne senses whether any such proposition is ther to be found But is there not a like vnto it Ye as so like as Rome is to Constantinople or Gregorie S. Peters successour to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike For if a man should seeke for his life to find in that epistle but some resemblance of that which the Apology reporteth he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th'vnlerned sake Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affected the title of Vniuersal Bishope S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome coÌ„plaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour declaring good causes aÌ„d reasons why such presumptioÌ„ should not be suffred Emong other he maketh this argument Lib. 4. epist. 3â— Surely we haue knoweÌ„ manie Prelats of the Church of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople to haue falleÌ„ into the goulfe of heresie and to haue ben not only heretiks but archeheretikes also Nowe for example he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius then bringeth he in therevpon this conclusion If therefore in that church vndoubtedly of Constantinople anie pul vnto himself that name of Vniuersal Bishope ergo which hath ben the iudgement of all good men the whole church which God forbid falleth froÌ„ her state wheÌ„ he falleth which is called Vniuersall An excellent argument vndoubtedly For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople that see hauing no priuilege of coÌ„tinuing stil in the right faith as appereth by the archeheretikes which sate ther and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope this one absurditie grauÌ„ted a thousand would folow and that one Bishoppe erring all the whole Church should go a straie Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occasioÌ„ of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie And wher find we here that if the church depeÌ„d vpon one maÌ„ â–ª it must at once fal doune to the ground Wil they yet defend theyr lying Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers â—s the Church aÌ„d that Church al one in coÌ„cluding Is depeÌ„ding vpon one man and that man al a like The successor of S. Peter and Bishop in that chaire in which neuer yet was fouÌ„d any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin is he al one with a Bishope of ConstaÌ„tinople â–ª which neither succedeth any Apostle and hath bene a defender of heresies let vs see now therfore whether you wil coÌ„fesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him The bishâ—ps sayth Bernard who now haue yâ— charge of Gods church Apolog. ar not teachers but deceauers they are not feders but begilers thei are not prelats but pilates These words spake Bernard of yâ— B. who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al of yâ— other Bishops likwise which then had the place of gouernement How then Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope because of those faâ—ltes which he fouÌ„d If he did why taried he in his moÌ„kes cote vnto his death If he did not what vnwise meÌ„ be you to for sake the Church for euil maners sake But coÌ„sider further WhoÌ„ called he deceauers â–ª begâ—â—ers pilats Al the whole order of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church froÌ„ the Pope dounward Or spake he of some certain only If he noted but some certain aÌ„d â—heÌ„ worthely those other some which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction 〈◊〉 it and so through wretched foly depart out of it If he spake generally of al then wil I coÌ„fesse that ye are not so much to be blamed for your departing from that Church nor for anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Authorie to that purpose But because I am sure this is false therefore I charge you and blame you How proue I this I proue it by those very bookes in which as you saie the foresaid wordes against the Pope and Bishopes are For concerning Eugenius him selfe he saieth in the third boke after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome Haec ad te Berna de CoÌ„s lib â–ª 3 noÌ„ de te scribo I writ this vnto thee not of thee And immediatly he declareth by example how Eugenius refused bagges of monie which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop by likelyhode notwithstaÌ„ding his mony And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous if he should haue nothing rewarded them Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this And I ê™ S. Bernard doe tell it so muche the more gladly by how much thou hearest it the more greauously The Pope theâ— him selfe was none of those deceauers begilers or pilates whom you mention Furth then were al the Cardinalles and Bishops deceiuers c. No neither al they as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke by the exaÌ„ples of two great Legats The one was Cardinal Martine Cardinal Martin which being sent legate into Dacia a countrie ful of gold and siluer returned yet so poore that for lacke of mony and horses he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse without mention making of any mater to be done for it Yet the legat aÌ„d Cardinal Martin was 〈◊〉 soner at Rome but the bishop of Florence
vs either what or whereof For ther is an holy adminstratioÌ„ of al the seueÌ„ sacrameÌ„ts aÌ„d in other things also which the church obserueth as halowiÌ„g of churches of paschal taper of palma of asshes aÌ„d in buâ—iyng of the dead But the decre is referred to the holy oblation or sacrifice the truth of which as ye wil not beleue so the very sâ—uÌ„d of the word ye caÌ„ not wel abide SecoÌ„dly th' emperor speketh not of som fruit as you say as though no ê“fit câ—me of th' oblation if the priest spake not aloud but of more deuotioÌ„ to be stirred therby GeuiÌ„g vs to vnderstaÌ„d that al is not lost though nothiÌ„g be hard but somwhat is won wheÌ„ the sense is more stirred Thirdly your surmise that we therfore speke with a holow voice lest the peple shuld vnderstaÌ„d vs is vnsensible For neither the clergy shuld lese any thiÌ„g if the people were learned Nor the people should vnderstaÌ„d much spake thei latin neuer so loud And heretiks wold vtter the secrets of our seruice were we neuer so warie And no charitable man will suspecte it of the whole Church that they enuie the peoples commoditie Then as for mumbling vp the Seruice the Catholikes doe in theyr most chiefest Churches sing and saie more distinctly and treatably then anie protestantes doe And I feare if Seruice were so songe in England as the Dominicans Augustines Franciscanes and Carthusians doe vse many of the moste feruente in sprite would complaine vppon the leisure and treatablenes that were taken in it Fourthely the Latine is no strange or barbarouse tongue as being the most coÌ„mon in this west parte of the world and one of the three principall and lerned tongues Pope Iulius doth euidently forbyd Apolog. that a Priest in ministring the Communion should dippe the bread in the cup. These men contrary to Pope Iulius decree diuide the bread and dyppe it in the wine He doth it so euidently Confut. 243. that it is not at all to be seen in his decree Shewe it that he forbiddeth the Priest to dippe the bread in the Cuppe as we vse in our mysteries and ye shal be honest meÌ„ But he speaketh De coÌ„sec distin 2. cuÌ„omne not of the maner of the Priestes vsing or receiuing the Sacrament but only of ministring of the hoste dipped in the blud vnto the peple which neither at this daie is allowed You must serue vs no more with suche soppes dipped in lies Pope Clement saieth Apolog. it is not lawfull for a Bishop to deale with both swords For if thou wilt haue both saith he thou shalt deceaue both thy selfe and those that obey thee Now a daies the Pope chalengeth both swordes and vseth them both Wherefore it ought to seeme lesse maruail if that haue folowed which ClemeÌ„t saieth that is that he hath deceaued both his owne selfe and those which haue geuen eare vnto him It is not laufull for you so desperatly to make lies Con. 245 For how is not this desperatly done to say that of any man which 〈◊〉 not be proued by him The Pope sayeth Si mundialibus curis fueris occupatus if thou be occupied in worldly cares And the Apologie maketh him to say 〈◊〉 vtrumque habere vis if thou wilt haue both swordes If Cura signify a sword and mundialis signifie two Or if Occupari curis be to occupi two swords then hath the Apologie geuen a greate blowe to the Papistes But whereas no such construction can be made it hath fought in this place not only without 〈◊〉 sworde but also without a scabberd because there is no such word in Pope ClemeÌ„t in which they maie put anie of the two swordes that they drawe out of his testimonie Nazianzen pronouÌ„ced openly yâ— he neuer had seen any good end of any couÌ„cel Apolog. He spake of the prouincial Councels And he spake also of his owne time Confut. 278. iâ— which heretikes did commonly deceaue priÌ„ces aÌ„d by force set vp their new deuices But he was not so vnwise as to mislike with Generall Councels or to geaue an example to the posteritie of extreme and vnreasonable disobedience In old time when the Church of God if we wil compare it with their Church was very wel gouerned Apolog. both elders DeacoÌ„s as saieth CypriaÌ„ certaine also of the common people were called vnto Councelles and made acquainted with ecclesiasticall matters What were these certain of the people whoÌ„ ye would proue by S. CypriaÌ„ to haue ben called to CouÌ„cels By this word certaine you signifie that there was an order takeÌ„ who should come who should not come And you make your Reader to coÌ„ceiue that out of the coÌ„mon people som were chosen which should be present at CouÌ„cels as though that had bene materiall in the Primitiue Church But S. CypriaÌ„ saith no such thing that any at al of the people Cypr. in Sententiis Con. CarthagineÌ„sis were called to the Councell but only this that when manie Byshopes at the first daye of September were assembled together at Crathage with their Priestes and Deacons the most part of the people were also present But who sent 〈◊〉 them Or who thought theyr presence necessary or how make you the presence of the most parte to be a calling oâ— certeine of the people By like reason you might say that in al causes where either a spiritual or temporal lorde is examined the people are called to the hearing of it because they are very prone to vnderstand newes and are not forbyddeâ—â— to stand by and here what is done in open Courte At the commyng of Christ Apolog. of God his worde of the ecclesiastical doctrine and of the ful destruction of Niniue and of that most beautiful harlotte then shal the people which heretofore had ben cast in a â—raunce vnder theyr masters be raised vp and shal make haste to goe to the mountaines of Scripture I note Confut. .331 in this testimony of S. Hierom your lieing spritâ— and sprity she spite For whereas he speaketh not of the Church of Rome but of the vniuersall state of the world which is signified by Niniue and whereas you care not what come of the world so that the church of Rome may be defaced of that which was but one in S. Hierome you haue made two things and turne that one which is altogeather of your owne making to the setting furth of your procedinges For S. Hierom speaketh of the destruction of Niniue In com in Nah. cap. 3 â–ª speciosissimae quondaÌ„ meritricis of Niniue which was once a most beautiful haâ—lot and you make him to speake of Niniue speciosissimae meretricis of Niniue aÌ„d the most beautiful harlot as though that Niniue were one thing and the beutiful harlot were an other Yet because this was not plaine enough for your purpose you geue S. Hierome the spirite of prophesie And verely you thinke he ment to foretell of
once saie the word both partes wil submitte theÌ„selues vnto it because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth His authoritie therefore being for so good cause so great with vs either ye can ê“ue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him or ye can not proue it If ye can not what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself so to belie him and what an iniurie â—s it to the Reader so to abuse him by the name of Christe But if ye can shewe it where Christ hath foretold that our Churche shoulde erre doe so then and speake not so mightie woordes againste vs without anie prouing of them at all But howe is it possible that ye should proue them Christ hath a Church For this first ye will not denie that Christ hath a Church otherwise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine if he haue not her for whoÌ„ he toke flesh The Churc◠〈◊〉 visible aÌ„d shed his blud This church theÌ„ of Christ is it visible or no Visible it must nedes be because it coÌ„sisteth of meÌ„ â—nd meÌ„ are creatures coÌ„sisting not of pure and simple soules but of soules and bodies togeather And Christ saieth of it Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl Being then visible The Churche hath order in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good order in it or no Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by nuÌ„ber weight and measure muste not let that to be without order which he estemeth most of al other thinges For 〈◊〉 is the bodie of Christe Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt wherewith one ministreth to an other hauiÌ„g in it distinction of offices and duties to rule to obey to preache to heare to minister to receaue This Order then The order in the Church must continue Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church or shal it continue to the worldes end It muste needes continue because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting and no power is hable to destroie the order which he taketh The Apostle also most expresly telling vs that Christ hath geuen Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Pastoures and Teachers â—ph 4. to finish and perfite the holy to worke in the ministery to build vp the bodie of Christ. Which bodie whereas it caÌ„ not be perfited vntill al they be borne that shal be saued soules it foloweth that this Order which I speake of must continue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God which wil not be til al be borne that shall so meete togeather and that is at domes day and not before These grounds then so standing I say vnto you for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men which is kept in order and vnitie by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end without dissolution or distruction I say therfore vnto you that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ or els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to coÌ„tinue in any form of religioÌ„ euer sensth ' Apostles time hitherto As in exaÌ„ple before Luther brake out froÌ„ his cloister and Rule ther was not in al the world anyone cuÌ„pany of Luther aÌ„s ZuiÌ„gli aÌ„s Caluinists or any other sect that braggeth at this day of the light aÌ„d knouledge of the gospel Wel ther might be in corners some faithles meÌ„ and womeÌ„ that in hart were heretical like as at this present if harts were sene many shuld be fouÌ„d eueÌ„ in EnglaÌ„d it self to dout of th'iÌ„mortality of the soule aÌ„d th' IncarnatioÌ„ of Christ c but ther was no opeÌ„ coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of theÌ„ nor apê“ued form of ministratioÌ„ emoÌ„g theÌ„ nor any face or shew of a Church For yourselues do say that Martin Luther aÌ„d Hulderik ZuiÌ„glius wer the first that came to the knowledge aÌ„d preaching of the Gospel so that if they were first it foloweth that before they came ther was no congregatioÌ„ of ê“testaÌ„ts in al the world or if it were it was not visible or if it were visible it had no true preachers or if it had true preachers Luther aÌ„d Zuinglê° need not to be praised of you for most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ eueÌ„ sent of God to geue light to the world because there were in the coÌ„gregatioÌ„s of the sincere in the Lord as illumined preachers of the word as they But wher as the truth is as you say that Luther and ZuiÌ„glius were the first that cam to the knoulege aÌ„d prechiÌ„g of the Gospel which is none in dede and wher as it remaineth to this day not oÌ„ly in the bokes that are writeÌ„ but in the memories of meÌ„ that knew those daies that before Luther and ZuiÌ„glius made a tumult in ReligioÌ„ ther was not in al ChristeÌ„doÌ„ any other ê“fessioÌ„ of faith thaÌ„ was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik it foloweth that your church caÌ„ not possibly be the Church of Christ the coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of which your church caÌ„ so litle be ê‘ceiued that yourselues know it begaÌ„ to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir ZuiÌ„glius time In whiche Churche there was so little order that ye can name neither SuperintendeÌ„t nor minister nor preacher nor broâ—her of it that liued before the most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ Luther and Zuinglius and which Churche was so inuisible that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of communion table pulpit vestiment or other thing vsed in it Yet we see this by experience that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather they wil not be longe without theyr preacher euerie one is so readie to be preacher and they can not be without some place and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place which is the cause that so many requestes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries and so manie Religious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel Therefore if there was anie congregation extant of this your Church before Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and fi lt hic opinions of his owne braine and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church and had so continued from the beginning theÌ„ had they places to resort vnto and they vsed such order as they had receiued of theyr Forefathers and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order But we can he are of no such thing ergo there was no Church of yours at all as then Add then now vnto this that Luthers Church began with Luther and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it And consider that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche
at his first cuÌ„ming to England a Lutheran only but ê‘ceiuing afterwards the Superiour powers to fansie an other way he folowed also them with all the wit he had and became an open ZuiÌ„glian Again you do wel to resort to PriÌ„ces palacies for argument because in deede thence is your cheefest ayde and succour Let the Scripture saith S. Ambrose be asked the question Apolo let the apostles be asked let the Prophetes be asked Ergo we must vse no other force but only Scriptures It foloweth not Confuâ—tion 3. for after al them I may aske also what S. Ambrose himselfe thinketh vpon the Scripture Apostle or Prophete And wher as by many means one in order aboue an other a way is prepared to any knowledge the vsing of the chiefest must not exclude al the inferiour froÌ„ their places Again why hath M. Iewel stuffed his Reply with so many allegatioÌ„s of phrases of doctours and left it so void of expresse Scripture if no other force but of scriptures is to be vsed Christ is euer present Apolog. to assist his Churche Christ nedeth not any man to supply his roome No one mortal creature is able to coÌ„preheÌ„d in his mind al the parts of the world Ergo there neither is neither can be any one man which may haue the whole superioritie in the Church He is present in deede by his power Conf. 45. To the firste and truth and grace but to the external eye he is not preseÌ„t and sensible men require a sensible Gouernour Christ nedeth nothing To the. 2. yet for because of his wisdom aÌ„d mercy he coÌ„municateh his Office aÌ„d Glory with men aÌ„d doth not al thiÌ„gs iÌ„mediatly by himself although he be of suche almightines that he nedeth no helpe It is as false as God is true To the 3. For in dede the powers of the mind as the wil memory aÌ„d vnderstaÌ„ding are by nature of that making and capacitie that nothing vnder God himselfe can fully replenishe it Yet if one man alone were not hable by himself to coÌ„prehende in his mind al the parts of the world neuerthelesse by his officers he may doe it though the whole were as bigge againe as it is Last of al to stoppe your mouthes with feare whom reason doth not persuade ye may by these argumeÌ„ts pluck the Croune froÌ„ the heads of al Kings aÌ„d Princes For Gods prouideÌ„ce you may say is ouer the whole world And he nedeth no helper And no Prince is hable to coÌ„prehend in his mynd al parts of his Dominion how litle so euer it be The Bishop of Rome doth not his duty Apolo as he ought to doe Ergo we saye he ought not once to be called a Bishop or so much as an elder The persoÌ„ and the office which any ê‘son beareth are distinct things Confutâ—tion 5â— And the vocatioÌ„ of Bisshop or King is to be honorâ—d though the coÌ„ditioÌ„s of theÌ„ shuld be coÌ„teÌ„ptible for their lust and idlenes ScruaÌ„ts are coÌ„mauÌ„ded to obey their masters not only wheÌ„ they be good aÌ„d modest 1 Pet. 2. but also if they be froward And further what are you that iudge I wil not say an other maÌ„s seruaÌ„t but your own lauful head and Bishope And if yow refuse his Authoritie for your part why iudge you yet the Chiefe Bisshope of the Catholikes To be short if it shal be considered how greauous the Heretikes and Turkes aÌ„d vnruly Christians are to the Church of Christ and what hath ben done by Popes euen in our dayes for calling of a general CouÌ„cel and for defence of ChristendoÌ„ against the Infidels and for suppressing of euyll maners ther wil be litle occasion left to reproue the Pope for not doing his duty A wonderfull vncleanenesse of life maners hath followed vppon the lawe Apolog. which commauÌ„ded pristes to liue single Ergo mariage is holy honorable in all sorts stats of persoÌ„s it was no good lawe which did forbid priestes to mary This disproueth not the lawe Coufntation 78. but it betraieth the foule and corrupt inclinations of them for whome the lawe was made Without the Lawe synne was dead sayeth the Apostle And I had not knowen sayeth he what concupiscence had bene Rom. 7. except the law had sayd thou shalt not lust So is it in the actes of parlament which are wisely and profitably made for taking away the excesse and costlynes of apparel For Thou shalt weare no sylke sayth the lawe except thou mayst speÌ„d yerely by office or landes a certayne Somme And by this one wolde thinke that poore seruing men shoulde not spende so much in their apparel as before they did Lesse robbing then and filching must folowe and the common welth shall be quiet and rich But the euent declareth that it is bestowed now vpon the making of the cote that which is diminisshed in the sylke that shoulde go to the cote And superfluities are not diminished but increased and the mater of them is not taken away but the forme is altered Doe not therfore put any fault in an holy or gooâ— law if sinne â–ª by occasion therof should enâ—â—crease and multiply but reproueth the coneupiscence and lust of them which call not for the grace of God that they may be able to kepe the good law We affirme Apolog that Christ doth truely presently geue his owne selfe in his Sacramentes Ergo we meane not to abase the Lordes supper This doth not folow Conâ—ut 1â—9 For whereas the mind of Christ is that in the open house which he kepeth his owne pretious body should be geueÌ„ vnder form of bread and that so freely and bountifully that come who would either frind or foe he would not chaÌ„ge his word and gift for that mater although he wold haue a saying vnto theÌ„ that by their vnworthy receiuing did frustrat his gratious benefit he that in this case saith that Christ geueth hiÌ„ self truly really â–ª substaÌ„tially â–ª yea bodily aÌ„d corporally vnto theÌ„ that do receaue him by faith aÌ„d charity he speketh vndoutedly a great and a true word But if he adde that to theÌ„ that haue no faith aÌ„d charity he doth not geaue his true and real body he abuseth the excelleÌ„cy and worthines of the ê“uision that is made For the gift were not certain aÌ„d perfit aÌ„d coÌ„sisting of the geuers own power only aÌ„d goodnes if the faith of the receauer should either make it or marr it You therfore that caÌ„ speake excelleÌ„tly aÌ„d substaÌ„tially of the sacrameÌ„t do for al that abase Christs bouÌ„tefulnes because ye beleue not that absolutly without respecte had to any persons he geaueth himself truely in his SacrameÌ„ts but that he geueth him self truly aÌ„d presently only to the faithful receauer of hiÌ„ The Lawe of God is perfite Apol. and requireth of vs ful obedience Ergo we are able by no meanes to fulfill that Lawe in this wordely life The Answer is easie
Ecclesiasticall or the Temporall Court to encounter them withal they did not belieue And so I say and thou sayest went to and fro betwene them without anie conclusion or profite To driue therefore the mater to some Issue let vs heare no more saieth he I saie or thou sayest but this sayeth our Lorde his bookes we both belieue we both obey there let vs seeke the Church Now in other Kyndes of question as of fasting receiuing the SacrameÌ„ts keping of holy dayes and other traditions S. Augustine wold neuer bind vs to Scripture onlie him selfe saying of these and the like in his Epistle ad Ianuarium August â— epist. 116. ad â—anuarium What so euer the whole Church thorough the worlde dothe kepe thereof to dispute it is a most insolent madnes Likewise also towarde such kynde of Aduersaries as woulde be tried hy testimonies of olde Fathers togeather with Scriptures or without expresse Scripture he would neuer charge vs to vse these wordes onelie This saieth our Lorde but well would haue bene contented that we should saie â–ª this saieth Cyprian Ambrose Basile c. him selfe speakinge of Auncient Fathers before and in his tyme after this fasshion Quod credunt Contra IulianuÌ„ PelagianuÌ„ lib. 1. ca. 2. credo that whiche they beleue I beleue that whiche they say I say c. Therefore ye haue abused very muche your Reader and S. Augustine bothe making the one to thinke the other to testifie that we should not fight against Heretikes but with expresse Scripture onelie Fulgentius ad Thrasimundum saith Apolog. that Christ thoâ—gh he be absent from vs concerning his manhode yet is euer present with vs concerning his Godhead The forme of a seruant is one thing Confut. 3â— and manhood is an other The forme perteineth to shape and figure which couereth our substance and maketh it visible the manhood perteineth to the inwarde nature and is only intelligible The first is not graunted nor taught of the Catholikes that Christ is with vs now in earth after the forme of a seruant The second yet they confesse and belieue that he is with vs really in his manhood The first is Fulgentius true sayeng to the king Thrasimund The second is your deprauing of Fulgentius in face of the worlde Sozomenus saieth of Spiridion Apolog. and Nazianzene saieth of his owne Father that a good and diligent Bishoppe doth serue in the ministery neuer the worse for that he is maried but rather the better and with more hablenes to doe good It will neuer I feare be better with you Confut. 76. but alwaies worse and worse Would ye make Gregorie Nazianzene contrarie to the Apostle And S. Paule so expresselie pronouncyng that he which hath a wyfe is carefull for the thinges of the world 1. Cor. 7. and is diuided thinke you that any Auncient Father or writer whose testimonie your selfe doe trust were likely to say that a Bishop dothe serue the better in the ministery for that he is maried I am glad ye geue credit to Sozomenus and Nazianzene vsing them for witnesses that we may see whether ye wil regard their owne very wordes and crie them mercy for abusiug them Sozomenus saith thus speaking of SpiridioÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 1. c. â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This Spiridion waâ— an husband man hauyng wyfe anâ— chyldren but he was not therefore the worse to Godward How thinke you then doth he praise Mariage Doth he saie He serued God the better and wyth more hablenes by reason thereof Doth he not rather note it as a rare and a singular grace in him that hauing such occasions of diuidyng and distracting his mind he neuerthelesse was nothing abated in his diligence and attention towardes God Nazianzene likewyse speaketh of S. Basiles Fathers perfect life in mariage with A but yet saying Although he put himself in bondes of mariage yet he liued so therein as he was letted no whyt therefore from the attaining of perfect vertue and folowing of wisedome As who should say it commeth most times so to passe that when students or holy men are maried they looke but seldome on their bookes but wait vpon the busines of the world yet was it otherwyse with Basiles Father For he although he put himself in bonds of mariage yet he was no whit letted therefore c. In which words he coÌ„mendeth his vertue and geueth no exaÌ„ple to vnmaried Priests that if they wil be furthered to perfectioÌ„ they should not be without a bedfelow nomore thaÌ„ he which should report of an other that he sitteth at a table ful of delicats and yet neuer surfeiteth vpon them that proue that it is a right waye to temperance alwaies to be at many and fine dishes Whereas contrariwise in all things that are delectable vnto the senses and hurtfull by excesse vnto morall vertues the safest way is to flee from occasions of euill vntil by longe custome an habite be obteined in the vertue And then as it is an argument of greate perfection to liue with a woman and nothing to be hindred in deuotion by her so it is so rare a vertue and needelesse thoughe it be in a man to be practised that as it may sometimes come to passe that one is not the worse yet there was neuer yet any man so blind and vnsensible which would thinke it to be a preferment toward perfection to be at bed and at borde with a woman The more you haue then to answer for which haue fathered such a sense on S. Gregory Nazianzene S. Hierome Al these things saith he which without the testimony of the Scriptures Apolog. are holdeÌ„ as deliuered from the Apostles be throughly smitten doune by the sword of Gods worde He saith not generally al those things Conf. 30 oiÌ„a but In â—rinâ—uÌ„ cap. Aggaei Sed alia that is and other thinges also And he saith not which are holden asseruÌ„tur but which they find and fâ—ncie meaning heretikes of whom onely he speaketh in that place And therefore he maketh not a generall rule against Traditions but a special prouision against the deceits of heretikes It was ryghtly said by Pius the second a bishop of Rome Apolog that he sawe many causes why wiues should be taken away from Priests but many moe and more weighty causes why they ought to be restored to them againe His wordes Conf. â—0 as Platina reporteth are these that mariage hath bene takeÌ„ froÌ„ Priestes with great reason And that it semeth it were to be restored again with greater Note it semeth not it ought and note greater reaâ—on and not manie moe and more weyghtie And if he had so ernestly spoken as you suppose yet dothe he not allowe the mariage of priestes whiche he confesseth to haue bene taken away for greate cause but so muche he seemeth to be greaued with the loosenes of theÌ„ in his time that he thought the causes why they might be permited to
by the name Apolog. of the highest Prelate the vniuersall Bishoppe or the head of the Churche S. Hierome ad Damasum Con. 247 The Councel of ChalcedoÌ„ â–ª and Victor de persequutione Vandalica these haue geauen the for sayd titles vnto the Bishoop of Rome Which of them euer sayd that both the swordes were committed to you Apolog. S. Bernard saiteth it lib. 4. de consideratione ad Eugenium Con. 247 Whiche of them euer sayed that you haue an Authority to cal Councels Apolog. There folowe a broune dosen moe of such which of them Con. 248 Which either nede no aunswer because the Catholik Church hath no suche Articles as you aske question of Or because it is not bound to answer euerie gentleman controllers busie questions although it be able either by expresse Authoritie or els by necessarie consequence to declare good and sufficieÌ„t cause and reason for euery thing that it aloweth But touching this present question Socrates Hist. Tripart lib. 4. ca. 9. doth plainely testifie against you What one error haue they amended From what kind of Idolatry haue they reclaimed the people Apolog. Here is a suspicioÌ„ reised of more thaÌ„ one error Con. 291. aÌ„d of more thaÌ„ one kind of Idolatry to be in the church and ther is no ê“batioÌ„ annexed to ê“ue that which is sayd But herein your bliÌ„dnes aÌ„d ignoraÌ„ce doth vtter it self that ye know not what is truth aÌ„d right worshippiÌ„g of God which obiect errors aÌ„d Idolatry to th'church of God in which church the techer of truth th' holy Ghost Ioan. 14â— is alwaies presideÌ„t and shal be vnto the worlds end Again if you coÌ„sider what hath ben don of late in general couÌ„cels aÌ„d what is don daily both by pÌ„ching aÌ„d writing against euil life and heresy you can not iustly find fault with the heades of the Churche as though they had no regard what the people did beleue and folowe Then further I say if you willo biect ignorance vnto the Catholykes that they knowe not what is true Religion then doth it remaine that you tel your owne mindes and answer theyr Confutations and Replies Before which tyme to insulte vpon them and to crowe out a lowde from what kinde of Idolatrie haue they reclaimed the people is to triumphe before the victorie and to goe merelie awaie with the sentence whiles the mater is a hearing yet in the consistorie But if you obiecte this crime to the Catholikes that they knowe wel inough what Idolatrie is and see the kindes of it and yet reclaime the people from no kind thereof this trulie is so heighnous and so vile a fault that ye shoulde haue euidentlie proued it before ye had so artificiallie concluded it For a plaine answere to whiche fowle suspition let any reasonable maÌ„ be iudge whether it be lykelie and possible that they which with great paines and daunger of bodie haue prouided verie Idolatours in deede to be conuerted vnto our faith would wittingly suffer an Idolatry to be at home before theyr eies aÌ„d yet not take a litle paine to opeÌ„ theyr mouth but once against it The FraÌ„ciscans and they of the societie of Ihesu haue and dâ—e take exceding greate paines about the barbarous people in the East and Weast India and with hazard of theyr temporal lyfe they venter to bring the Infidels to the knowledge of the life euerlasting Therefore surely it is bysides al reason and likelyhod that of so manie of the same order and profession as liue here in Europe emong vs no one should be fouÌ„d so honest so hardy or so faithful as to reclaime the people from theyr Idolatrie if anie were in them at all Why doe they so vncourteously or with such spite Apolog. leaue Princes out as though they were not either Christen meÌ„ or els could not iudge will not haue theÌ„ made acquainted with the cause of Christian Religion nor vnderstand the State of theyr owne Churches And why doe you so openly and so licentiously râ—yse a fowle suspition Con. 297 against the Cleargie where no cause is The teÌ„poral princes are solemly warned before of the general councel when soâ—uer it is to be kept Theyr Legats haue honorable and meete places for them in the Couâ—cel house that they may not be ignorant of that which is done in debating and examining the cause of religioÌ„ They be humbly and hartly thanked for theyr helpes and assistance and presence made in the cause of the Churche They be sent home with peace And say you that princes are so lefte out as though they were no Christen men whose Embassadours you maie vnderstand to be interteyned and vsed so honourably What ys the Pope Apolog. I praie you at this daye other than A Monarche Or A Prince Or what be the Cardinals who must be none other nowe but princes and Kinges Sonnes We neuer hearde anie wyse man call Con. 299 the Pope A Monarche But a Prince he is in deede either as the worde Prince maie signifie the Chiefe in all Priestelie function either as it signifieth a man so indued with Temporalties that he maie worthely be a Kinges felow But saie you what other is he than a Monarche or a Prince As who shoulde thinke that he sate imperiallie vnder his clothe of Estate and hearde Embassadours out of all quarters of the world and gaue kingdomes or toke them awaie at his pleasure and after such maters of weight dispatched then that he went to hunting hauking plaieing dauÌ„sing feasting c. as worldely Princes doe For such a thing do the coÌ„moÌ„ people imagine a Monarche or prince to be one that ruleth al and liueth in al pleasure That you therfore may be corrected of your lie aÌ„d the simple Reader of his error I say that the Pope is no Monarche at al. And I confesse boldly that he is a Prince by reason of the Temporall and greate IurisdictioÌ„ which he hath ouer S. Peters patrimonies but as Pius the fifthe that now liueth did answer agreably to his holines and wisdom Licet Princeps sum antiquius tamen Pastoris quà m principis nomen agnosco so to say the like in English I geue you to vnderstand that although the Pope be a prince yet he acknowledgeth and taketh the office of a Pastor to be the more former and principal with him than the Office of a Prince By this office then of a pastour he gouerneth and fâ—deth his flocke he sendeth non residents home to theyr cure he apointeth out Preachers and Bishopes for the new found lands he calleth CouÌ„cels endeth CouÌ„cels wheÌ„ it shal please him he goeth in visitatioÌ„ as this last yere he did through althe parish churches of Rome he excommunicateth such as wil not repent as he doth Courtesanes expelling them bodyly also out of the Citie he succoureth such as wil conuerte for which purpose his predecessor Pius the fourth of blessed memorie built a peculiar Cloister
discontinuance or interruption as that it shoulde be saied after manie hundred yeares comming in betwene in which one forme of Religion was vsed now is Luther or Zuinglius sent of God to geaue lyght vnto the world Gather I saie these thinges together and ye shal perceiue that either Christ had no church huÌ„dred of yeres together and that yet he hath none or els that our Catholike Church is the one and only church of Christ. For alother Churches haue either discoÌ„tinued either they haue not bene sensiblie perceiued either they haue ben within memorie erected and so they lacke Succession visiblenes Antiquitie Of whiche three pointes the Church that Luther and Zuinglius went vnto when they departed from the Catholikes had not one But afterwardes when they became them selues builders of A new Church aÌ„d that vpon theyrown heades and Authoritie for they acknowledged no creature then liuing for theyr superiour in that mater theÌ„ in dede it was not long but they gote one of the forsaied three pointes For they kepte such a sore sturre against all Christendome that it was most euideÌ„t that they were a visible Congregation But as for succession and antiquitie they can neuer get it because they can neuer proue it for why they neuer had it Yet for Antiquitie they wil striue and crake as the Authours of the Apologie doe that they doe come as neere as they possiblye can to the Church of the Apostles and of the old Fathers But in the point of Succession they can not tell what to aunswer for them selues For how Let the heretiks shevv their succession thinke they is it possible that the Church of Christ should be without the lauful successioÌ„ of the Apostles Could his wisdom not for see it that for as much as he minded coÌ„tinually to cal in gheasts vnto his feast therefore it was necessary to prouide seruants one after another for that purpose Would his chartie suffer it that togeather with the Apostles deathes his coÌ„passion vpoÌ„ the poore soules of the world shuld die aÌ„d that ther shuld not be for euery age vnto the worlds end like officers for their authority as th' Apostles wer to dispeÌ„se his graces aÌ„d mercies Could not his power perfourme it that come who would none shoulde be hable to staie the succession of his Lieutenants and Vicars What then can the heretike nowe say why he hath not a succession A thing so necessary for the wisedome of God to prouide and so natural for his Charitie to geaue and so proper for his almightines to maintain Verely were it not that he is almightie it is impossible by naturall power and reason that the Bishop of Rome whom heretikes haue alwaies hated at whom the greatest Bishopes in the East Churche haue enuied with whoÌ„ Lordes aÌ„d Ladies of the world haue ben so much offended whom the Barbarous haue so ofte assaulted whom the Christians at home haue so trobled that he yet should continue still and alwaies haue a successour it passeth al cuÌ„passe of mans wisdom and prouisioÌ„ but that he that made him his Vicar in earth is God almightie in â—eauen and earth In some other thinges the heretikes maie so contend with the Catholikes that it will be hard for the indifferent man certainlie to knowe whom he maie folowe They wil alleage the same letter of the Scriptures as the Catholikes doe they wil vse the same couÌ„cels aÌ„d fathers They wil challenge Antiquitie and say that they haue descended from the Apostles like as Parking Warbecke saied he came of king Edward the fourths bloud and what so easie as to saie a worde if one will be desperate and die rather in field than vnsaie it but when they are brought to the mater of succession in which they lacke the verie bare names and much more the Actes and Monumentes of such as they should shewe to haue desceÌ„ded lineally and orderly from the Apostles doune vnto them then loe they are at a staie and haue not one wise worde left to them by which they might aunswer a question so principall and so reasonable And yet they crake stil that they are come to the Churche of the Apostles and of the old Catholike Bishops and Fathers whiche Churche saie they with exceding blindnes or impudencie we know hath hithervnto ben sound and perfite Con. 322. and as Tertullian termeth it a pure Virgine spotted as yet with no Idolatrie nor with any foule or shamefull faulte Note Gentle Reader that they speake of theyr knowledge and excepte theyr knowledge be so diuine and ineffable that neither we can conceaue it nor they well vtter it desire theÌ„ to be so good as to make vs also knowe it For if they knowe the Apostolike Churche to be hythervnto sounde perfite and pure lette them tell vs where it was in the yeare of our Lorde 1500. or 1400. or 1300. The Churche of Rome is knowen to haue stoode in those yeares but all the sorte of them holde it for A Principle that manie errours and faultes were founde then in it Ergo if by theyr saieing that Church had errours what other Church was there in those dayes whiche they knowe to haue bene sound perfite and pure They can reken none at all For al these Weast partes of Christendome folowed the Church of Rome and they theÌ„selues confesse that the Greeke Churche doeth erre Ergo if the Churche of Rome was not sounde and perfite in those foresaied yeares and if the Greeke Churche be notorious for the errours of it howe doe these Felowes knowe that the Apostolike Church hath hithervnto bene sound and perfite For what signifieth hithervnto but euen vnto our time And if the Apostolike Church hath ben found and perfite euen vnto our time there was suche a Churche vndoubtedlie in the yeares of our Lorde 1500. 1400. and 1300. and that Churche was not as they holde the Churche of Rome Ergo some other But there was no other that they knowe to haue ben sound perfite and pure Ergo they speake more then they know and ioyne theÌ„selues close to the Apostolike Church without any succession from the Apostles and crake of a pure aÌ„d perfite building without anie foundation Such is theyr miserable and blind braggyng How much more trulie should ye conclude that for as much as the Apostolike Churche not onely hath bene hytherto sound aÌ„d pure in doctrin but must also coÌ„tinue sound and pure vnto the world end and for as much as no Church hath coÌ„tinued so but only the church of Rome therfore he that maketh accompt of euerlasting life can not possibly attaine vnto it excepte he come to that Churche in which only the succession continueth by which it is easie to ascend vp euen to the chiefe of the Apostles For to S. Peter our Sauiour saieth Math. 1â— Thou art â—eter or a Rock and vpoÌ„ this Rocke I wil build â—y church aÌ„d the gates of hel shal not â—reuail against it â—uc 2â—â— Again
for thee â—eter I haue praied that thy faith should not â—aile and thou being once turned confirme thy bretherne Againe to S. Peter he committeth his whole flocke saying Ioan 21. feede my lambes fede my sheepe To S. Peter then as the singularly chosen the promises are made and the priuileges are by praier obtained aÌ„d the charge by expresse worde is committed Nowe for confirmation of these wordes consider the effectes that haue folowed what heresie was euer mainteined by the See of Rome What question was there euer in the Church of Christ and not referred to that See and determined or pacified by it What See hath continued in al tempestes but onlie the See of Rome Who can shewe theyr succession from the Apostles but onlie the Bishopes of Rome What See is preferred in the writinges of holy Fathers but the See of Rome onlie That is the Chaire vnto which perfidiousnes can haue no accesse 〈…〉 That is the chaire of vnitie in which God hath put the doctrine of veritie 〈…〉 That is the Chaire in which euill men are constrayned to speake good thinges that the faith of the Christians may be out of doubt with them whiles it shall depend vpon the infallible promises of God and not vpon the deceiptful coniectures of men This Churche therefore being the Church which we cal Catholik in which the chiefe Master of the worke laied S. Peter as the first stone next to himselfe and in which there is a continual rew of Bishops one vpon an other to the meruelous strengthning and beautifieng of the whole building against which Church it is impossible that any wind or weather should so preuaile as it might ouerturne it for it is builded vpon a sure Rocke in which Church also there is the presence of the Holyghost sent of our Sauiour to teach it all truth and to tarie with it for euer these thinges being most euident and consequent what a blaspheâ—ouse lye is it to say that Christ hath told longe before that this Churche should erre For what other thiÌ„g is that to say but to blaspheme either the wisedoÌ„ of God as though he had not erected a church that should not erre or his power as though he could not bring it to passe or his Charitie as though he would not or his veritie as though he had not sayed poynting to S. Peter Math. 1â— vpon this Rock I wil build my Churcâ—e and againe I haue prayed for thee Peter Luc. 22. that thy Faith might not faile But for this tyme this is inough to note only the blasphemie he that wil see is more largely betraied and conuinced let him reade Doctor Saunders booke lately set furth of the Rocke of the Church The 12. Of the Contradictions Martin Luther Hulderycke Zuinglius Apolog. â—74 a being most excellent men euen sent of God to geue light to the worlde firste came vnto the knowledge of the Gospell ERgo before their tyme Confut. ther was a generall darknes in the world I wysse it is not so harde a matter to find out Gods Church Apolog. .24 for the Church of God is set vpoÌ„ an hill glistering place Ergo Luther and Zuinglius could not be the first that shoulde see the Church Confut. except either Christ had no Church at all in the world wheÌ„ Luther was borne or except a Citie set vpon an hil and for that purpose vndoubtedly sette that it might be sene should not yet be sene before Luther came in with his lanthorn We saye we haue no meede at all Apolog. 125. by our owne workes and dedes Ergo it booteth not to labour Confut. except it be for nothing God hath plucked vs out from the power of darknes Apolog. 225. to serue the liuing God to cut away all the remanents of synne and to worke out Saluation in feare and trembling Ergo that is not without some meede and rewarde Confut. by which we worke our saluation Our Aduersaries must be heaued froÌ„ their mother Apolog. 194. that is from this vaine coloure and shadow of the Church Ergo ye should vtterly dâ—spise the Church Confut. especially as it is now if yoâ—r aduersaries mother be of no substance but a vaine colour only To say truely Apolog. 192. we doe not despise the Chuâ—che of these men how so euer it be ordered by them now adayes â—rgo the Catholiks Church is no vaine colour of a Church Confut. seing that your selues dare not despise it 〈◊〉 popes had neuer hitherto leisure to 〈…〉 and earnesâ—â—â—e of those matters Apolog 19. 〈◊〉 some other cares do let them and â—iuers waies pul them Item â—61 they compt these thinges to be but coÌ„mon and trifling studies and nothing to appertaine to the Popes worthines Ergo being so carelesse Confut. they would neuer haue perceiued the case of their Religion nor procured men to defend it There haue ben wylily procured by yâ— Bishop of Rome Apolog. certaine persons of eloquence inough and not vnlearned neither which should put their helpe to this cause now almoste despaired of Item In deede they perceyued that their owne cause did euery where goe to wracke Ergo it appeareth Confut. that the Popes haue had care of the cause of Religion In this point that is lifting vp the Sacrament consisteth nowe all theyr Religion Apolog 250. Ergo al is not in salt Confut. water c. In these thinges they meane salt water Apolog. 255. Oyle spittle Palme they haue set all their Religion Ergo all is not in lifting vp the Sacrament Confut. What fault haue they once acknowledged and confessed Apolog. 209. Why burden ye then vs with not amending manifest and ofte confessed faultes Confut. Of so many Apolog 291. so manifest so often confessed by them and so euident errours what one haue they amended Why aske you then Confut. what faulte we haue once confessed For so much as we were most ascertened of God his will Apolog. 327. and compâ—ed it a wicked thing to be careful and ouercuÌ„bred about yâ— iudgments of mortal men Therefore ye should haue neuer called a Synode of mortal men Confut. Yet it foloweth Therefore we thought good to remedie our Churches by a prouincial Sinod Apolog. But what neded a remedy by a Synod Confut. if mortal mens iudgmentes are not to be cared for Our cause against the wil of Emperoures from the beginning Apolog. .15 against the willes of so many Kinges in spite of the Popes and almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encreace c. You neuer nede then Confu to aske leaue that your Gospel may procede if it be so victorious and triumâ—hant that maugre the head of al men almost it take encrease Let them geue the Ghospell free passage Apolog 133. let the trueth of Ihesu Christ geue his clere light