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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A47813	The casuist uncas'd, in a dialogue betwixt Richard and Baxter, with a moderator between them, for quietnesse sake by Roger L'Estrange.	L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704.	1680 (1680)	Wing L1209; ESTC R233643	73,385	86

them no good else And what good I beseech ye did you do them by it but mislead and confirm them in Principles of Disobedience only you consider'd you say that the Prophane were much worse then the Other What is the reason that Mr. Baxter will be perpetually thus Inconsistent with himself First you Repent for no more Discouraging and then by a side wind for Encouraging and before the Repentance is out of your Mouth you are at it again with your CHURCH-CORRUPTIONS and your opposition of the PROPHANE forsooth to the Godly to Enflame the D●vision and to Harden the Non-Conformists in their Dissent Now as to your Stigmatizing Character of Prophane There is a Personal Prophanenesse and there is a Prophanenesse of Association and Confederacy There are many men I know that have gotten so diabolical a Habit of Swearing Cursing and Blaspheming the holy name of God that they can hardly speak Ten words without an Oath or a Curse This is witho●t dispute a most abominable Sin But it is withall so Disagreeable and so offensive that it gives a man a Horrour for the Imitation and Practice of so Unprofitable and so Monstrous a Crime and though it be a grievous Wickedness it is not of so dangerous an Example But what say you to Sacramental Leagues against Order and Law To the forcing of a whole Nation either to Swear or starve to the calling God into a Conspiracy against Government and Religion To the Robbing of Altars demolishing of Temples dethroning of Kings degrading of Bishops c. And all This in the Name of the most High God and with hands held up unto the Lord. But go on with your Repentance Ba. I do Repent also that I had not more Impartially and dilligently Consulted with the best Lawyers that were against the Parliaments Cause for I know of no Controversy in Divinity about it but in Politiques and Law and that I did not use all possible means of full Acquaintance with the Case Ibid. And that for a little while the Authority of such Writers as Mr. Richard Hooker Lib. I. Eccles. Polit. and Bishop Bilson and other Episcopal Divines did too much sway my Judgment toward the Principles of Popular Power And seeing the Parliament Episcopal and Erastian and not hearing when the War began of Two Presbyterians amongst them all nor among all their Lord Li●utenants Generalls Major Generalls or Colonells till long after I was the Easilyer drawn to think that Hookers Political Principles had been commonly Received by all which I discerned soon after upon stricter Enquiry to be Unsound and have my self written a Confutation of them Pa. 53. Mo. This way of Dodging in one of the Prophane as you stile us would have been Iesuitical Here 's only a bare wish that you had made a stricter Enquiry into the Cause but no Acknowledgment that you were in the Wrong And again If you knew of no Controversy in Divinity about it why are all your Writings stuffed with such a Huddl● of Texts for Obedience to the Two Houses What did you search the Word of God for in the Case Holy Com. Pa. 486. 〈…〉 were misled by Mr. Hookers First Book of Ecclesiastical 〈…〉 Favour of Popular Power why would ye not let him set the Right in your Ecclesiastical ●olitiques and in your Duty to the Authority and Discipline of the Church to make ye some amends the Biasse which you will have him to take in favour of Popular Power being not one jot to your purpose but regarding only the Specification of Government and not the Fountain and who●ly Forrein to your Phansy of a Co-ordination Whereas That Great mans discourse in vindication of the Rites and Injunctions of the Church comes directly to your Point and stands as sirm as a Rock against all the Insults of Calumny and Opposition without any pretense to a Reply But you serve Mr. Hooker in This and the King himself and the English Clergy in Oth●r Cases as you do the Bishops in your Church-History you turn over Indexes and Common-Places for matter of Reproach against them and then obtrude upon the World the Frailties of some and your own most Uncharitable mistakes of Others for the History of the Order but not one word of Their Virtues It would make a black book the Story of the Presbytery drawn up at the same Rate It is your way still under a Pretext of advancing the Mistical Church to depress the Visible and to put the people out of Love w●th both Civill and Ecclesiastical Constitutions Ba. Pray'e do but observe and see of what manner of persons the Visible Church hath be●n Constituted in all Ages of the World till now In the first Church in Adams Family a Cain In a Church of Eight persons the Father and Pastor overtaken with Grosse Drunkenness and one of his Sons was a Cursed Cham. In a Church of six persons Two of them perish'd in Sodom in the flames among the Unbelievers and a Third turn'd into a Pillar of Salt The Two remaining Daughters committed Incest In Abrahams Family an Ishmael in Isaac●s an Esau even Rebecca and Iacob guilty of deceitfull Equivocation an Abraham and Isaac deny'd their Wives to save themselves in their Unbelief In Iacobs Family a Simeon and Levi that sold their brother Ioseph Of the Church of the Isralites in the Wilderness but Two permitted to enter into the Land of Promise c. The Ten Tribes were drawn by Ieroboa● to Sin by setting up Calves at Dan in Bethel and making Priests of the Vilest of the People and forsaking the Temple and the True Worship of God and the Lawfull Priests And these Lawfull Priests at Ierusalem were Ravening Wolves and Greed● Dogs and careless and cruell Shepherds The false Pro phets who deceived the People were most Accepted Ch Div. Pa. 35. ●6 37 And if you run through the Churches of Rome Corinth Galatia Colosse Ephesus Pergamus Thyatira Sardis Laodicea Pa. 39.40.41 you 'le finde it to be the same case Mo. But what 's your end in all This Ba. Not to make Sin less Odious nor the Church or Godly less Esteemed but to shew you the Frame of the Visible Church in all Generations and how it differeth from the Iewish lest you should take on you to be wiser then God and to build his house after a better Rule then his Gospel and the Primitive Pattern Ibid. Pa. 36. Mo. This is by Interpretation The Non-Conformists are the Invisible Church and the Episcopall Clergy are the Ravening Wolves and the Greedy Dogs and all the Sons of the Church of England are the Church Visible According to your most obliging way of Allusion But there 's one thing I forgot You say the Presbyterians did not begin the War which with your Favour is a great mistake and yet not a pin matter to the case in Question whether they did or not Did not the Kirk lead the Dance and

make it Lawfull But if it it be a thing that is only Inconvenient or Unlawful by some Lesser accident then the Command of Authority may pre-ponderate as a more weighty Accident R. B's Church-Divisions P. 194. Nay Many a Ruler sinneth in his Commands when it is no Sin but a Duty of the Inferior to Obey them As if a Magistrate Command Religious Duties in meer Policy or if he force a Lawful Command with Unlawful Penalties and Yet it will be the Subjects Duty to Obey Ibid. Nor is any Ruler bound to suspect and prevent such Unusual Dangers of mens Sin or Ruine as fall out beyond all Rational Foresight or Expectation of whose Probable Event or Possible at least there was no just Evidence R. B's Non-Conformists Iudgment P. 60. Mo. Your Argument Mr. Richard has cut off all Magistracy at a Blow For there is not any Command Imaginable that falls not within the Reach of your Exception And Mr. Baxter is in the Right on 't But what do ye think now Gentlemen of the Operation or further Extent of such a Power Ri. If you mean as to matters concerning Religion No man 〈◊〉 any Authority to make Laws about Gods Worship but 〈◊〉 Christ hath given him Non-Conformists Plea 2d Part. P. 28. Ba. Pray'e hold me a little Excus'd There too for we renounce the Opinion of them that hold that Circa Sacra the King hath no Power to Command the Circumstances of Worship N●●-Conformists Plea Part 2 d. P. 73. Mo. There is but a Right and a Wrong in the case my Masters and you have hit them both again I make no doubt on 't but your Circa Sacra comprehends Liturgies Ceremonies and other Circumstances of Order relating to the Church pray'e tell me how your Consciences stand affected that way Not as to the Merits of the Cause for the world is allready clogg'd with That Controversy but I would willingly know what thoughts You and the Party you plead for entertain of our Ecclesiastical matters Ri. When the King call'd us to signify our desires in 1660. the Ministers of London were commonly invited to come to Sion Colledge that their Common Consent might be known And There we agreed to desire or offer nothing for Church-Government but A.B. Ushers Modell of the Primitive Episcopal Government When his Majesty would not grant us That Modell nor the Bishops once Treat about it he was pleased in his Gratious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs to offer and prescribe the Episcopacy of England as it stood with little alteration c. A Government says his Majesty Fol. 10. Which is established by Law and with which the Monarchy hath flourished through so many Ages and which is in truth as ancient in this Island as the Christian Monarchy thereof This Declaration we Ioyfully and thankfully accepted as a ●opefull means of a Common Conformity and Concord Non-Con's Plea 2d Part Pref. Ba. The English Prelacy I tell you is the product of proud Ambition and Arrogancy and contrary to the expresse Command of Christ. R. B's Five Disputations P. 45. Bishops are Thorns and Thistles and the Military Instruments of the Devil R. B's Concord P. 122. How could you ●ustify then a Submission to such a Prelacy Mo. If an Angel from Heaven I perceive were employ'd to bring 〈◊〉 two to an Agreement he shoul● lose his Labo●r Fo● That which is highly acceptable to the One and the hopefull Foundation of a Common Concord is Ant●christian Diaboli●al and Uns●fferable to the Other You a●e up I find at every Turn with the 〈◊〉 Projectpunc and in such a manner too as if the most ●●●●onable thing in the World ●ad been offer'd o● the One 〈◊〉 and refused on the Other Whereat That 〈◊〉 was 〈◊〉 accommodated to the ●ard 〈…〉 the Kings Affairs at the time of Framing 〈…〉 any man in a case of Extremity 〈…〉 of an Arm ●r a Leg for the 〈…〉 yet he a very strange request to ask a man in a state of Freedome and Safety to part with a Leg or an Arm from his Body And as wild a thing on the other side to Grant it But the very offer at it under a pretense of Conscience was highly disingenuous especially when upon the Issue the Scruple was remov'd by the Ref●sal and This Satisfaction given to the world by your own Acknowledgment that Conformity and Episcopacy may stand well enough together when you please Ri. I c●nnot deny but that ma●y proposed to have yi●lded to Prelacy Liturgy and Ceremonies Non-Con Plea Part I. P. 136. Ba. Why truly a Certain Episcopacy may be yielded to for the Peace if not for the Right Order of the Church But the Diocesan Episcopacy which was lately in England and is now laid by may not be lawfully reassumed or readmitted as a means for the Right Order or Peace of the Church R. B's Five Disputation P. 2. 1659. A Government which gratif●eth the Devil and wicked men Ibid. P. 36. Mo. Still upon the Contradiction But if they were so well dispos'd to come In what was it I beseech you that put them off again Ri. When they saw the New Act for Uniformity th●ir Deliberations were at an End Ibid. P. 26. Ba. After proving Prelacy to be against the ●ill of Christ and the Wellfare of the Churches Five Disp. Pref. 1● and contrary to the word of God and Apostolical Institution Ibid P. 51. what need was there then of any further Disswasion Mo. Pray'e tell me Mr. Richard Was Prelacy Lawfull Before the Act for Uniformity and not After You are Angry at the One and therefore you Renounce the Other for it was no longer Prelacy Liturgy or Ceremonies it seems that you boggled at but the New Act. Now since you your selves were convinc'd that such a Conformity as aforesaid would have been Warrantable and only transfer'd your Exceptions to the New Act how comes it that you go on still decrying the State Rites and Offices of the Church to the Multitude and make That a matter of Conscience in One breath which you left at Liberty in Another The Uniformity does not alter the case one jot to the Common People but the Layety may as lawfully submit to Prelacy Liturgy and Ceremonies After the Act as they did before Ri. The People who now adhere to the Non-Conformists who were at age before the Wars had very hard thoughts of the Bishops Persons and some of Episcopacy it self because of the Silencing of Ministers and ruining of Honest men about Sundays-sports Reading That Book and other su●h things beside Nonconformity c. Non-Con Plea Part I. P. 139. Mo. the Bishops and Episcopacy it self you say were thought hardly of partly for S●lencing your Mi●isters Which was yet a way of proceeding Conformable to the directions of the Law and in part among Other Provocations for the Book of Sports upon the Lords day Be it spoken