either 2. They are under a judiciall blindness God has given them reason and understanding eyes that they might see hearts that they might understand but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light and then by the just judgment of Almighty God this light is taken from them they are given up to blindness of mind and hardness of heart as were the antient heathens Rom 1. 3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God to his sacred word there is an antipathy an emnity betwixt their Debaucheries their filthiness their profaneness and his most holy laws Rom. 8.7 every line of it flyes in their faces threatening them with hel and damnation whereupon they cavil with they quarrell against it they wish there were neither God to punish nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them and so by insensible degrees they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God as the foole did Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet quod nimis miseri volunt hoc facile crâ—dunt the thoughâ—â— and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires they hate the light because their deeds are evil though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments and reasons of the truth of these great principles yet they will not believe them such is the perverseness of their will that it either blinds their mind or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lye and to hold the conclusion against the most evident proofes and premises Dub. I am perswaded that you have given very good reasons why so many are Atheists and infidels and that the cheifest of them are irreligious and prophane livers that practical Atheisme is the greatest cause of that which iâ— dogmaticall or Atheism in opinion 'T was the foole that said in his heart there waâ— no God first he was a foole i. e. a sinner and very wicked as he is discribed in that psalm and thence he proceeded Atheist a foole in practise and then a fool in judgment for t is most certain that a corrupt and wicked life is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions froâ— which by Gods blessing upon your good endeavoures I am now delivered and am fully perswaded that God is and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seeke him that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God and consequently that the Christian Religion is the onely true religion but observing that of those who profess this Religion there are severall parties and t is not unknown to you that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome I would willingly learn from you which party they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholick Firm Your demand is rationall I shall most willingly Gratifie you in itâ— oâ—ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you and let me receive your answâ—r unto them at our next meeting 1. What Inducements you had to turne to the Church of Rome 2. What Reasons you had to leave it Dub. You must give me leave also to recollect my selfe that I may be â—he better able to give in my answer to your Quaeries DIALOGVE III Against POPERY Firm. I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you Dub. To the first I returne this answer My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these 1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time when by the testimony of St. Paul her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1.8 2. The universality of it no Church has spread it self so farr and nere upon the face of the earth as that of Rome 3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church 4. The unity of it under one infallible head which cannot err in poynt of faith or manners 5 The sanctity of it's Doctrine that 't is free from errour in matters of â—aith free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners 6. The sanctity of life in the authors and first-fathers of the Roman Religion these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome Firm. Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bellaâ—mine Lib. 4. de not Eccle. and others of his perswasion appropriate to that Church but had you not some other inducements As first a vitious life and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest his absolution and injunction of a pitifull pennance 2dly were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition or 3dly were you not ambitious of preferment deeming popery to be a ready way to it or 4thly were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtile Jesuite lamenting your sad Condition that a person oâ— so rare endowments should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soule perswading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation and that you being no member of the Church of Rome were past all peradventure out of the Church and unlesse you returned to that Church there could be no hope of your salvation or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome were you serious and conscientiouâ— in any Religion for 't is very easy for one that is of no Religion that makes no consciencâ— of his waies being allured with the joyeâ— of heaven and affrighted with the terrours of Hell to pitch upon any Religion that confidently promises those and as confidently a freedome from these and we know that Priests and Jesuites want neither art nor impudence to perswaâ—e silly wretches that hopes of Heaven and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church Dub. Truely Sir I am verily perswaded that many who have left your Church and gone over to that of Rome have stumbled at such straws but you have known me long to be a man of no vitious life no male Content not ambitious of honour or preferment not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts not cold or carelesse in point of Religion but the chiefe reasons that moved me to goe over to the Church of Rome were those before named which made me believe that Church to be the only true Catholick Church out of which there could be no hope of salvation to these I beg your answer Firm. And you shall have it 1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient Catholick and Apostolicall is in severall weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture neither hath it the generall consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholick Church the prâ—sent Church of Rome is no more like to what it once was in the purest primitive times than an old decrepit man full of diseases Gout Stone Palsy Dropsy Scurvey Blindnesse Deafnesse Wrinkles and a multitude of
infirmities is the same Strong Handsome Healthy Man that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old Dub. Thô I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome for her antiquity yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church many wrinkles in her face which were not from the beginning but not withstanding those infirmities 't is the same true Church as 't was at the first plantation as the old decrepite man is the same man that ever he was for substance Firm. I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sence the same it first was in respect of divers Articles it holds but in respect of those gross errours it now maintaines 't is no more like what it was then the old decrepite diseased man is like what he was in his younger dayes Dub. Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases as I in part do apprehend I pray you proceed to my other motive Firm. The Church of Rome is not so universal as her disciples boast of neither in respect of place or time 1. 'T is the observation of a learned man that if the world were divided into 30 parts 19 of them are heathens 6 Mahometans and 5 Christians of which the Papists are not the one halfe as Mr. Breirwood in his Enquires does demonstrate 2. As to the universality of time the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenents from the beginning of Christianity through the several ages or Centuryes that it has continued a Church from the first preaching of the Gospell I deny not but that 't is the same for purity of Doctrine as once it was is most false for the antient Church of Rome never taught worshiping of images praying to Saints that monstrous transubstantiation halfe Communion Praier in an unknowne tongue and many more Groundless fopperies against Scripture the general consent of fathers common sence and reason Dub. All this I am inclined to believe but how could these errours creepe into a Church which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches it received from the Church that was in the next age before it that from the Church next before it and so quite down to the Apostles times as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Vnckle and the Nephew hath most learnedly demonstraâ—ed Firm. Truly very learnedly even as Zeno proved there was no locall motion you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration were not the Scribes and Pharises great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers And yet we know how grosly they had corrupted the law of Moses as is evident by our Saviours confutation of them Mat. 5. and in severall other places Dr. Crakanâ—thorp and other Learned prâ—â—â—stants do evidently shew the beginning the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome the manner of their spring and Growth but Suppose we cannot punctually tâ—ll the beginning and progress of such and such an errour shall we therefore believe it to be no errour you walk sometimes in the fields 't is evident to your eyes that the Grasse aâ—d graine do grow though you do not see them move at all sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition will you not believe him to be so because you cannot tell the time when or the manner how his disease came upon him Dub I cannot be so unreasonable and by what you have said my third reason falls to the Ground for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive but is extreamly opposite to it in the points before named besides many others I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity for they seem to be firmly united under one infallible head the Pope Firm. Truely Sir they do but seem so for they are miserably divided in the great fundamentall of their faith their infallibility and are not they very unjust to us to exact our beliefe of that which they themselves know not where to find for some of them tell us 't is fixed to the Popes chair some say 't is to be found in a Generall Councell otâ—â—rs believe it to be in neither but in both united together others would perswade us that 't is in the whole body of the Church so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations who in waggery are sent from shop to shop for a penyworth of Ell-broad Packthred or a pound of stock-fish Tallow or a Lefthanded Shuttle after these poore novices have been sent from one end of the Citty to the other they returne home without such ridiculous Commodities and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision There 's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous workes wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholicks among themselves insomuch that this great Cardinals workes were not to be bought in Rome as Sir Edw Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum because he had so imprudently discovered the nakednesse of his mother in point of unity To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists Ochamists c 't is pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans Franciscans Iesuites Molinists Iansenists Regulars and seculars agree together Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the Iansenians and so that which was none before very luckily became an article of Faith such is the Popes omnipotent Power that he can create Articles of Faith out of that which was a pure noâ—-entity a very nothing in the primitive times yet I heare that the Iansenists are so saucy as to continue very Iansenists still notwithstanding his holinesses inâ—allible determination Dub. I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome as they bragg of I desire to heare what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine Firm the Sanctity of their Doctrine referrs to that of Faith and Manners for that of Faith which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed or any other Doctrinall poynt contained in holy Scripture expressly or by good consequence deduced from thence by the generall consent of Fathers we allow of but as for popish additions of new atticles by Pope Pius the 4. and the councell of Trâ—nt that are against Scripture and can never be justified by the generall consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church we reject as false and consequently not Holy this I suppose you will demâ—nsâ—rate when you please to give me the reasons which made you forsake the present Church of Rome As to their Saâ—ctity of manners their
out Firm. True 't is such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture by the practise of the â—niversal Church attested by the general consent of Fathers and Councels as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel Dr. Taylor 's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy with many others First The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples had his Twelve Apostles which were superior to them as is evident by the chusing of Matthias into the place of Iudas from the example of Timothy and Titus the one a â—ishop of Creet the other of Ephesus by the general consent of Antiquity in those and other Churches In that once famous Church of Rome we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus What should I mention the Angels of the Seaven Asiatick Churches which by the general consent of the Fâ—thers were the Bishops of those Churches nay St. Hierome himself no good friend to this Order does acknowledg That when Christians began to he divided one being of Paul an other of Cephas to prevent such Schisms there past an vniversal Decree throughout the world Thâ—t Bishops should be setled in every Citty who should govern with the Common Councel of the Bresbyters and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest for taking away the seeds of Schism Dub. I am very well perswaded by what you have said that the Primitive goverment of the Church was by Bishops with the assistance of the Presbyterie who had authority over the Presbyters and were their superiors But I pray you satisfie me in this one thing Why did St. Paul so shâ—rply reprove the Corinthians for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop Firm. This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection but if we seriously consider the words upon which 't is grounded it has no weight at all The Text that is cited to prove it is 1. Corinth 5.2 Ye are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation for so soul a sin not for the neglect of Excommunication He that had committed that great sin was to be taken away or cut off from the â—hurch but they themselves could not exclude him but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul verse 3 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally â—eated there being then no Bishop of Corinth for evident it is that in those Churches where there were no Bishops the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands until Bishops were setled among them as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Creet Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters as such had any Jurisdiction belonging to the publick goverment of the Church but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles and Bishops and noâ— by virtue of their own Order Dub. I am very well satisfied both from Scripture and the general practise of the Church which is the best Comment on the Text That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution and I confess I am much confirm'd in this perswasion by Gods blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men such as Cranmer Ridley Iewel Carlton Abbots Morton Andrews Vsher who of English extraction Hall Laud and Sanderson Hooker Cracanthorp Iackson c. whose profound Learning and Piety has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome that ever she received â—rom any Protestant writers and their judicious works have been the strongest sence against Popery Heresie Rebellion and Schism that the Christian world can ever boast of Firm. I much rejoyce that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses We will now if you please proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned and many more your opposites in this your second exception as well as in the former Dub. 'T is probable I shall however that I may receive full satisfaction from you give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them As 1. They were not from the Beginning but as it were of yesterday 2. They seem to be very useless serving only to maintain the pride and grandure of many idle drones 3. Many poor Parochial Churches are rob'd of their Tiths and Glebs to maintain such lazy Ministers 4. Their Vicars Choral and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation have little sense or relish of Religion 5. Their Toning of Prayers their Chore service is like a Latine Masse not understood by the people 6. Their Organs and other Musical Instruments are Levitical utterly unlawful under the Gospel Firm. You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution but I shall presently make you understand the contrary First I shall shew you that Cathedrals Deans and Chapters though not under those names were from the beginning of Christianity It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles and the Records of the Church that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ those spiritual Fishermen cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts They usually Preached in the most Populous Citys where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches to which the Suburbican or those that dwelt in the adjacent Villages were subject and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishops Diocess which they governed as St. Hirome confesses by the common councel and assistance of Presbiters termed at Rome in after times Cardinals or chief Presbiters and in the time of Charles the great as the Magdeburgenses inform us were incorpated into a Colledge under the name of Dem and Chapter the Dean by the Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter Before the sounding of Universsitys these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets where young Students were train'd up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning Gerard gives us a tast of their first institution their corruption and how they might be restored to their primitive uses I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books and well Studyed men to consult with and leisure all which we Country Ministers are deprived of would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals and manifest to this invidious age that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very usefull to the Church and very Antient as I
Imprimatur RAD. BATHVRST Vice-Can Oxon. FIRMIANUS and DVBITANTIVS OR Certain DIALOGUES Concerning Atheism Infidelity Popery and other Heresies and Schisme's that trouble the peace of the Church and are destructive of Primitive Piety VVritten in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians By THO. GOOD D.D. Master of Baliol Colledge in Oxon. Take heed Brethren least there be in any of you an evil heart of unbeleif in departing from the living God Heb. 3.12 OXFORD Printed by L. LICHFIELD Printer to the University for THO. HANCOX Book-seller in Hereford 1674. To the Reader COnsidering the many Learned and judicious Tracts that are extant against Atheism Infidelity Popery with other Heresies Sects Schisms destructive of the Antient Catholick Religion and of that Peace and Vnity Love and Charity which is the badge and mark of Christs sheep I thought it superfluous to add my poor Scrible after such fair Copy's but observing the length and learning of those elaborate Tractat's which many men have neither money to buy leasure to read nor judgment to understand I conceived that these few short Discourses not fitted nor indeed intended for the perusal of the learned might nevertheless be gratum opus agricolis not altogether unprofitable for men of ordinary Capacityes to which purpose I have used such means and methods That I might be the better understood by these men I have endeavoured that the matter of these discourses for the most part might be plain and familiar the phrase and expressions intelligible I have made use of two feigned names Firmianus and Dubitantius to personate the sound Believer and the doubting Sceptick Christian who are brought upon the Stage disputing by way of Dialogue which is most suiteable to men of short discourse and most apt to comply with their apprehension I hope the more learned Reader if any such shall give themselves the trouble to peruse this little Manuel will not Censure the plainness of it but rather commend the Charity of the Author toward the wâ—ll meaning Christian who amongst those many Treatises that have been written can meet with very few that are calculated for his Meridian and consequently is apt to be blown about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men and cunning craftines whereby they lye in wait to deceive and who these gamesters are he that has but half an eye may see and how many a poor soul has in these times of confusion been blown about from one erroneous opinion to another until he has turned Seeker Scheptick and at last down right Atheist there is no man so great a stranger in our Hierusalem that can be ignorant Wherefore if these short and familiar discourses may have the happiness to prevent the falling of any unsetled wavering soul or to restore any that has fallen to a sound mind 't will be my great satisfaction and rejoying to be able to apply to my self that of St. James cap. 5.19 Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him let him know that he that converts a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall cover a multitude of sins Now the God of truth and peace grant that these poor and weak endeavours may work that good effect upon the erring seduced sinner and that the multitude of my sins may be covered with the long white robe of my blessed Saviours righteousness for his holy name sake Amen Thine in the truth that is iâ— Christ Jesus THO. GOOD DIALOGUE I. Against ATHEISME Firm. GOod morrow to my old Friend Dubitantius Dub. A good day to you Firmianus Firm. Methinks I read some discontent in your face what may be the cause of it Dub. There is a great cause I have been so long distracted betwixt diversity of Opinions in point of Religion that I am now doubting whether there be any Religion at all or any Supream invisible Deity to be worshipped Firm. This is the common result of vain Janglings that they usually end in Atheism and Infidelity But pray tell me is it possible that there should be such fierce disputes and bitter contentions about a very nothing Certainly such sharp disputes about the various manners of Gods worship do strongly argue that Religion is a thing of highest concern or that all the wisest men that ever were in the world are Fooles and madmen to oppose hate malign persecute one another even unto death for a groundless fancy a very nothing Dub. Your discourse is very Rational for I suppose wise men would never wrangle about a meer Romance yet I confess I have had strange irrational thoughts against the very Being of God and the truth of any Religion Firm. You justly term such thoughts irrational Did not I once tell you that when you had forsâ—ken your Mother the Church of England the most Apostolical Catholick in the whole world in short time you would become a Libertine an Atheist any thing or nothing Dub. Do you think that all Nonconformists and Separatists from your Church are Libertines and Atheists Firm. I am not so uncharitable but I must tell you that causeless separation is a very greiveous sin and punished many times with the seveâ—est judgments such as are Spiritual blindness Hardness of heart and a Reprobate mind Dub. I fear those judgments have overtaken me for since I became a Separatist from your Church I have been very cold at my Devotion made little conscience of publick or secret Praier of Obedience to those powers which God has ordained of Love Charity Honesty and Upright dealing towards my neighbours I have lived an Atheist in practise so long that I am now ready to be an Atheist in Opinion and to say with the foole in the 14. Psal. There is no God I have so long sâ—ept out of one opinion into another that at length I am become a very Sceptick in Religion doubting of all and fixing upon none Firm. Truly Sir you made good your name by your practise which renders you a right Dubitantius But pray tell me by what degrees and methods you have stept out of our Church into the borders of Atheism that I may with the more facility bring you back the same way by which you have unhappily gone out from us into the bosome of your dear Mother Dub. Your Demand is reasonable 'T is not unknown to you that I was once a true son of the Church of England you shall hereafter know for what reasons I left her Communion and became a Presbyterian and to be breif I stay'd not long in that opinion but presently I proceeded Independent then Anabaptist then Quaker then Papist then Antiscripturist then what you now find me almost an Atheist Firm. I hope you are not fixed in that wretched Opinion as resolvedly to deny him a being that gave you yours Dub. Sir I am not but have many doubts whether there be and as many thoughts that there is not
a God Creator and â—overnour of Heaven and Earth and all things in them contâ—ined Firm. I have heretofore taken you for a rational man and therefore I desire a reason from you of such thoughts and doubts Dub. Those many Controversies and sharp contentions about religion and worship of God have caused me to doubt whether there be any Religion at all or any God to be worshipped Firm. Is it imaginable that so many wise men should contend about a trifle a fancy a very nothing 'T is strange that what should be a most rational motive to perswade you to beleive that there is a God and a Religion should make you doubt of both There must be something in it that draws so many Combatants into the field Zealous Sticklers for their several Modes and Formes of Religion hateing â—ne another even unto death Dub. This you have intimated before I am fully convinced that so many fierce disputes about Religion do argue that t is not a meer fancy I pray Sir enquire no further after the reasons of my doubts but let me hear from you how they may be satisfied Firm. Most willingly but that we may proceed the more methodically let it be agreed beâ—wixt us what is the true notion of God Upon supposition that God is what do you conceive of him in your mind Dub. 'T is agreed by all that the notion or conception of God in our mind is that he is a being infinitely perfect Firm. If God be a being infinitely perfect then God is for a being infinitely perfect must necessarily exist and be Dub. Do not we say a Rose is a flower yet it does not follow at aâ—l times that a Rose is for in the winter there is no such thing as a Rose and yet the proposition is true Firm. There is a vast difference betwixt a being absolutely perfect and that which has a limited and finite perfection for in this the essence may be really abstracted from the actual existence but not in that For a being infinitely or absolutely perfect must necessarily exist not contingently or impossibly for those modes are inconsistent with a being absolutely perfect for whatsoever does exist contingently is in possibility not to exist which is an imperfection and impossibility of existence is the greatest imperfection of all other Dub. This reason is so obscure that albeit I cannot reply to it yet I am not satisfied with it I fear some fallacy lies hid in the bowels of it Firm. I believe not yet because you do not fully comprehend it I shall proceed to others thaâ— are more plain and intelligible Firm. What say you then to that reason which is drawn from the General consent of all nations as well Heathens as Christians Nulla gens tam barbara c. saies Cicero No nation was ever so barbarous which did not confess a God now the consent of all nations is the law and dictate of nature so that t is impossible that all nations should consent in so great a falshood as the Atheist endeavours to maintain Add to this their general practise in worshiping some supream Deity that rather then worship no God at all they would worship the Sun Moon and Stars yeâ— the moâ—t contemptible Creatures the Crocodile Onyons Garlick a Red Cloath any thing they first met with in the morning so powerful is the impulse and inclination of nature in this great business of Religion which is the proper distinguisâ—ing Character betwixt a man and a beast as Lactantius has long since observed Dub. I confess that the general consent of nations in the acknowledging and worshiping a God has been one main reason that has kept me from being a down-right Atheist Yet I have somwhat to say against it because this consent is not so general as is pretended for I have heard there have been men in Antient times and not a few in these we live in who have said not only in their hearts but also with their tongues there is no God Firm. What are two or three men in former ages or a feâ— debauched persons in this to the general consent of all civil nations from the beginning of the world Happily you have heard that soâ—e have denied the Snoâ— to be white the Fire to be hot Monstrous opinions are no more a prejudice to the dictates of nature and common consent of all nations then monstrous shapes and formes in the body are to the laws of nature which she generally observes in the forming of men and beasts in their due proportions and lineaments What if some few out of discontent singularity animosity or brutish sensuality have turned Atheists Is it not a great prejudice to this brutish opinion That few Sober men if any have been of their party but such as have been first Atheists in practise sensual debauched wretches Nam quo quis in vita purior c. saies Cicero â—y how much any man has been more pure in his liâ—e and conversation by so much his thoughts of the Gods have been more sound and rational Dub. I confess it is a great prejudice to Atheism that the Debaucher sort are the greatest iâ— not the only sticklers for it but still my doubt remains and therefore I desire to hear from you some more evident reasons for my full satisfaction Firm. Most willingly I shall comply with youâ— desire My Third Argument shall be this If the world had a beginning and was not from all eternity then 't was made by somthing else for nothing can make it self 'T is as clear as the Sun at noon day whatsoever is made is made by another for that which is not cannot work and consequently cannot produce it self nor aâ—y other â—â—ing now this somthing else must be made oâ— some other cause or else it self must be the supream cause of all things If you affirm the former you must run up into an infiniâ—e number of Causes which is impossible or else you must come at last to one supream independent being which is the maker of all things he himself being made of none which is the eternal God Dub. I begin to feel the weight of this Argument If you can clearly prove the world to have had a beginning I shall be your Convert and readily confess that verily there is a God that hath made the world and judgeth the earth Firm. This I hope I shall perform by his gracious assistance whose cause I plead and whose poor sinful creature I am First Then by the world we understand the whole Systeme or Collection of things in it contained Sun Moon Stars Air Earth Water Men Beasts Foâ—les Fishes Plants and all things whatsoever comprehended in this vast circumference Dub. I willingly grant that by tâ—â— World we are â—o understand all things therein contained as you have enumerated them which make up the visible world created by Almighty God in six daies as your Moses would have us believe Firm. That none of these were from
all eternity I shall prove by instancing in two of the most principal of them to wit the Sun in the Firmament and Man that dwells upon the face of the earth by which you may judge of the rest Dub. If you can prove that the Sun was not from eternity and that there was a first Man and consequently that mankind had a beginning I shall be abundantly satisfied it that wherein at present I much doubt viz. The worlds beginning Firm. Before I proceed to my arguments you must give me leave to lay down certain principles which no rational man will deny As for example 1. Quicquid fit fit ab alio whatsoever is made is made by somthing else for nothing can make it self 2. Omne ens est vel factum fiâ—itum dependens vel non factum infinitum independens every thing that is is either made finite independent or not made infinite independent 3. Vere iâ—finitum non habet principium aut finem that which is truly infinite has neither beginning not end 4. Non datur proâ—essus in infinitum we cannot proâ—eed in numbering from effects to causes or in any other way imaginable infinitely but we must come â—o some period oâ— end 5. Infinitum noâ— potest pertransiri 't is impossible to pass over or through that which is infinite so as to come to an end of it seeing what is infinite has no end 6. Infinito â—il potest addi to that which is infiniâ—e nothing can be added to make it greater or more then 't was before that addition 7. Aeternitas est duratio â—nterminabilis sine partium successione in qua non datur prius posterius Eternity in its full and proper notion is a boundless duration without beginning or end without succession of parts as that one part of it should be either before or after another Dub. No rational man can deny any of these principles but I much wonder how so great a master of reason as Aristotle was should grant all or most of these and hold the eternity of the world and not be sensible of manifest contradictions Firm. That the Eternity of the world is a flat contradiction to many of these principles is evident that Aristotle was an acuâ—e Philosopher cannot be denied but it must be granted he was but a man and one that had only the light of corrupted nature to guide him he might therefore err not knowing the Scripture nor indeed the power of God and therefore he wâ—s ignorant how the world could have a beginning and seeing he very resolutely maintained that ex nihilo niâ—il fit that whatsoever is made is made of somthing and that of somthing else and so we muâ—â— proceed in infinitum which he positively denied as absurd and impossible as well he might or else the world must be from all eternity proceeding from the first mover whom he conceived to be a necessary not a free Agent as heat from the fire or light from the sun and therefore eternally existing with that first mover or first cause however some have affirmed that in his Book de Mundo if that be his he retracted this error which has been a grand occasion of Atheism as Fâ—rra upon Aquinâ—s â—ontra Gent. has truly observed Dub. And well he might if 't was built upon â—o sandy a foundation as to make God a necessary Agent for that was to render him inferiour to some of his Creatures which are free and voluntary But pray leave the Philosopher to his other errors and self-contradictions and make it appear if you can that he erred in asserting the eternity of the world Firm. That I hope to perform by principles granted by all sober men There is nothing in the world but either 't was made and had a beginning or 't was not made but was from all eternity now t is evident that there is no particular thing in this visible world which was not made The Sun Moon Stars were made Men Beasts and Plants were made For brevity sake I shall only instance in the Sun and in Man that they were made and had a beginning and consequently the Moon and Stars â—easts and Plants 1. That the Sun was made and had a beginning I thus demonstrate That which was not from all eternity but had a beginning was made and that by somthing else because nothing can make it self but the Sun was not from all eternity The Major is evident the Minor is thus confirmed If the Sun was from all eternity then either it moved from all eternity or it stood still if it moved from eternity then 't was eternally together in the East Meridian and West not first in the East then in the Meridian then in the West for in an eternal motion if any such motion were possible there can be no â—uccession no first or last prius or posterius because in such a motion there is neither beginning noâ— end Dub. 'T is evident by what you say that the Sun has not moved from eternity but how can you prove it did not stand still from eternity seing there are some that hold it alwaies stood still and never moved to this day but that the earth moves and the Sun not at all Firm. It hinders not the force of the Argument whether you hold the earth move and the Sun stands still or the contrary for 't is but shifting the Scene and puting the Earth instead of the Sun and the reason will be altogether the same Dub. I perceive it does not and therefore let me hear how you can prove that the Sun did not stand still from all eternity Firm. If the Sun stood still from eternity then there was an eternal night upon half the face or Globe of the earth and an eternal day up on the other half or at least many other gross absurditieâ— would follow No vicissitudes or changes of night and day summer and winter spring and autumn and consequently no productions or generations of Men Beasts Plants for that half of the earth which was deprived of the light and heat of the Sun which as a second cause gives life and vegetation to all the inferior Creatures that have life and growth could bring forth no vegetables or animals and the other half which was alwaies scorched with too much heat must of necessâ—ity be as barren by such heat as the other by extream cold and so we should have an eternal Sun to no purpose and then what will become of your eternal world Besides if the Sun stood still from eternity what caused it to move in time of it s own nature certainly it could never awake out of an eternal sleep if any thing else set it in motion then either it must be somthing that was moved by some superior Cause and this cause by another and so to an infinite number of causes which is absurd and impossible or else it must be the first mover and efficient cause of all things which is
enemies to Christianity acknowledg but besides their Testimony which being from adversaryes is vâ—â—y cogent we have the tradition of the Catholick Church in all ages and most places of the world for 1600 years and upwards and as he that will go up by the side of the River will at last come to the head and fountain of it so he that shall ascend through the several Centuries of the Church will at last infallibly come to the head of it Christ Iesus to the place of his Nativity his Preaching and mighty Works that he did his bitter death and bloody passion or if he shall descend from Christ through the same Centuries down to this present time he may be farr more certain of the birth and life and works and sufferings of this our bessed Saviour of the writings of the Holy Evangelists and Apostles then that there have been such men in the world as Alexander the great Iulius Caesar Pompey Scipio Hannibal of the Warrs and noble Acheivements managed by them of William the Conquerour the Barons warrs and yet none but a fool or a mad man or one that has vowed to believe no farther then what he can see with his own eyes will doubt of these for that the tradition which conveys the same of these Worthies and their Actions down unto us is nothing so general as that of the Catholick Church neither is it at all practical but purely historical wherein we are not at all concerned whether or no the things reported of those noble warriours be true or false Dub. He that will not assent to what is delivered by universal Tradition takes away the use of one of the most noble Sciences in the world viz. History and wants rather a Cudgel then an Arguâ—ent to confute him T is evident by undeniable tradition that there were such persons as Christ and his Apostles that thay did great and marveilous things but how shall we know whether the works which they did were true miracles surely t is very difficult to know what is true and what is an imposture Firm. Thô at present this may appear difficult to you yet I hope I shall make this difference as manifest to you as is that which is betwixt Gold and drosse And here I will not trouble you with the niceties of the schoolemen betwixt mirum miraculum that a true miracle is arduum insoliâ—um supra vim naturae hard unusuall and above the powèr of nature that it differs from a â—alse one in the efficient material and formall cause which is ignotum per ignotius But to wave such subtilties a true miracle may be known from a false one 1. By the successe as Exod. 7.12 t is said Aarons rod swallowed up those of the sorcerers and in the primitive times t is cleare how the miracles wrought by the Apostles swallowed up in effect all false ones â—one by satanâ— Instruments how notwithstanding all those lying wonders wrought by Simon Magus Apollonius and others the prejudicating world was brought over from Idolatry and superstition to embrace poor persecuted Christianity by those true miracles which otherwise had been the greatest miracle in the world 2. A true miracle may be known from that which is a jugle or imposture by the design or end of it which is for the confirmation of a divine revelation to bring men over to the worship of the true God to propagate the true Religion the end of false ones is to draw men from this worshâ—p which note of difference God himself has stamp'd upon false miracles Deut. 13 Dub. But doe not you now run into the same erroâ—r which you so lately condemned in others for by what you have said I must first know which is the true Religion before I can know which is a true miracle and surely then there will be no use of miracles to confirme me in the truth of what I knew before Firm. there is a mutuall confirmation betwixt the true religion and a true miracle true Religion does give light to miracles these do seal and confirm that Religion We see that all discursive knowledge does arise from some precedent knowledge untill we ascend to such principles that are clear to the light of nature now evident it is to natural reason that there is a God Creatour of all things that there is but one God that this one God ought to be religiously worshipped the intelligent and learned heathens have acknowledged all these Again 't is evident that there were never but four general Religions in the world Paganisme Turcisme Judaisme and Christianity and I think I have already made it manifest that of all these Religions none is so râ—tional or such a reasonable service as is that of the Christian which for the substance of it is the oldest of all others being the same which was practised by the fathers both before and after the flood for the spirituality morality and unity of the God heaâ— worshipped 't is excellent beyond all others most agreeable to the Common principles and notices of the reasonable Soul Here upon any serious sober man may conclude that all these miracles which have been â—ttempted to draw men from Christianity are but mere impostures and those that have been wrought for the confirmation of it wherein one true God of infinite majesty wisdome power and glory is worshipped in spirit and truth are the only true miracles Dub. Pray Sir excuse me this unnecessary trouble which I have given you for by what you had said before concerning the supereminent excellency of the Christian Religion above all others I might have seen the force of your reasoning which as I conceive stands thus If the Christian Religion be the only tâ—ue Religion then those miracles which were wrought for the Confirmation of it are the only true miracles Firm. You rightly conclude I shall therefore proceed to the third note or marke of a true mirâ—cle and that is the effect and consequent of such a miracle which is the drawing of the mind from sin to God the primitive Christians much insisted on this as an undoubâ—ed evidence of tâ—e miracles wrought by Christ that they were done by divine power because the effect that followed them was the worke of conversion of Souâ—â— from sin and Idoâ—s to Goâ— and Christ and all true piety and holinesse of life they tended mainly to the overthrow of Satans Kingdome Christ by his miracles did not only disposesse Satan out of mens bodies but out of his Temples upon this accouâ—t he convinces the Scribes and Pharises of most irrational blasphemy when they objected against him that he did cast out devills by the power of the devill but he replyed every Kingdome divided against it selfe cannot stand Mat. 12.25 Besideâ— Christs doctrine which he confirmed by miraclâ—s was in every thing contâ—â—â—y to the devils dâ—sign which was to draw men from the worship of the true God that himself might be worshiped to insnare men in the practise
swore by a good Man by which 't is evident how the grosse superstition of the Church of Rome hath crooked silly Souls and that all such images are teachers of Lies very vanities as the Scripture shews and reason demonstrates For to say nothing of the Blasphemous images of God the Father and the holy Trinity doth not the image of any Saint whom these pseudo-Catholicks worship lie to their imaginations representing that which is not for nothing but the Soules and Spirits of those Saints do now remain so that whilest they picture and worship them in bodily shapes which pictures represent what is not they worship they know not what praying onely to the Soules of Saints yet phansying them in bodily shapes as when they lived here on earth how doth it concern all Serious Christians to beware of the Religious worship of any creature of Gods or mans makeing of Angell Saint or Image which is so expressly forbidden in the word of God And surely if we might worship the picture of a man which is mans Creature 't were much more rational to worship a true man yea the Son Moon and Starrs and all thâ— host of heaven they being all of them the Creatures of Almighty God Firm. You rightly conclude were not a judiciall blindness upon the eyes of our adversaries they could not be Guilty of so dangerous a suspition Dub. I shall trouble you but with one reason more for my forsakeing the Church of Rome which was breifely their praiers in an unknown tongue a practise manifestly contrary to plain Scripture and the antient Doctors of the Church a most unreasonable service opposite to that which we are to perform to Almightâ— God 'T is so bafled by St. Paul that all the learned â—en of the Roman party have nothing of sence or reason to answer and as for antiquity 't was not so much as thought upon in the first ages in the Church the Liturgies then every where were in the known and vulgar tongue otherwise how should the unlearned say Amen The practise of the Church of Rome is in this as in divers other of their fopperyes a very mistery of iniquity I could heartily wish that for the undeceiveing of ignorant Papists their Missales Pontifical's Breviaryes Lady Psaltres c. were translated into the English and other vulgar tongues that such poore deluded soules might see to what absurd prayers they say Amen to what childish ridiculous Ceremonies they â—ubmit I might here add the vain Reptitions of so many Ave-Maria's Pater-noster's upon their beads their saying of them at certain houres as a Pensum or taske or a Pennance to make a Compensation for their sins rather then as a willing serious duty from the heart and soule which is not Religious praying but a Childish saying of prayers a vain heathenish babling after the manner of an old wises charm resting in the work done as if the bare saying of prayers without any intention of the mind were the only end of praying or the effectuall â—ervenâ— prayer of a Righteous man Iam. 5.16 I might also add their cheating Purgatory their purchasing of pardons and indulgences for sins past and for many hundred yeares to come by sums of money sett downe in the Tax booke of their Chancery their Pilgrimages and bodily Severityes to expiate for the sins of their soules their allowing of Brothell houses to Gratiâ—ye the unmarried Clergy and others in their unclean Lusts for which the Pope receives a luâ—ty Pension But to deale truely with you no one thing wrought a greater dislike of Popery in me then their barbarous bloody Cruelâ—y towards those that they please to call Haereticks their savage inquisition their Parisian Irish and other massacres their marian Butcherings their intended matchless powder treason their poysoning and stabing of kings their Justifieing of Rebellion and all manner of wickedness by their right intention and Doctrine of probability as is to be seen in the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme in the Jesuites Morralls can such Villany such Cruelty and Christianity stand together did Christ and his Apostles propagate the Gospel with such Carnall weapons how severely does our Saviour rebuke his angry disciples when they would have called for fire from heaven to destroy the uncivill Schismatical Samaritans yâ—e know not what spirit yee are of for the son of man is not come to dâ—stroy mens lives but to save them Luk. 9.55 O that Christs pretending Vicar had the spirit of the meeke and holy Jesus These Sir were the reasons which moved me to forsake the Communion of the Church of Rome for upon this account I could not believe her to be the Catholick Church or any sound part of it but a very Schismatical Haeretical one that had departed exceeding much from Primitive Christianity from the faith that was once delivered to the Sainâ—s Firm. You have given very sufficient reasons for your departure from that unsound Church which may satisfie any serious considering Christian and you have saved me the trouble of any further addition to them I am now fully perswaded that you are neither Atheist Infidel or Papist pray you let me know what is your present perswasion and what Church you most â—pprove Dub. Truely Sir there are so many sects amongst the Protestants that I am in no small doubt with which of them to hold Commuion but my inclination leads me chiefly to returne to my old Mother the Church of England from which most unhappily as I am now convinced I heretofore separated however for the removâ—l of some scruples which yet remain with me â— earnestly desire you to give your selfe the trouble of a short discourse concerning the severall sects now in England Firm. I shall most â—readily gratifie you In this your very reasonable request nothing doubting but that I shall by Gods Gratious assiâ—tance remove all your scruples and fix you a true son of that Church which is the most Catholick Apostolical Church now exstant in all the world which those that do acknowledge the holy Scriptâ—re to be the infallible word of God the perfect Rule of all the substantialls of Christianity both for faith and manners and have some competent knowledge in the records of antiquity the want of which is one great cause of hâ—resy and schism as to be able to trace Christian Religion through the severall ages of the Church from the Apostles down to these presenâ— times I say those that do acknowledge these things cannot doubt of Dub. You much confirm me in what I have often heard from grave and learned men that one great cause of errours in Religion is ignorance in the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church Councels and Ecclesiasticall histories this is not every mans work that have neither books to read nor brains to understand them and that tâ—e surest way to be an Orthodox Christian is by studying descendendo beginning with the records of the first century then
but leaving them to their own simple fancyes Enthusiasms let us proceed to the Presbyterians to which party I first adhered when I forsook the Church of England and and of all dissenters from thâ—t Church in my opinion they have the greatest shew of reason for their separation Firm. In my judgment they have less reason to separate then any other because they agree with us in Doctrinals and are divided from us because of some Ceremonies which are confessedly things indifferent and for some modes of Government viz. the Episcopal and Presbyterian of which tho the former be the best and most antient yet learned and most moderate men of both parties do acknowledg that neither of these Forms of Government are so essential to the being of a Church but that it may subsist and be a true Church under either of them potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse but more of this hereafter But before we begin our discourse about Presbyterie let us speak a few things concerning Independency for I have heard that you were somtimes of that perswasion Dub. True I was once an Independent or Congregational man buâ— seeing all Sectaries are in respect of Church fellowship Independeâ—ts and that these men for the most part have the same objections against the Church of England as the Independents make use of I thought it superfluous to trouble you with any particular discourse â—oncerning them Firm. There are Three things belonging to Independency which we have not discoursed upon as yet neither will they properly fall under debate in our intended Dialogue about Presbyterie if you please we will take a breif survey of them Dub. I willingly embrace this motion DIALOGUE VI Against Independency Firm. THe first thing that I except against in the Independency is the goverment practised in their particular Congregations without any jurisdiction one over another so that every of their Assemblies is absolute within it self without depending upon any Classical Diocesian Provincial National Church or general Counsel whence they have the name of Independents Dub. Is it true that they will noâ— admit oâ— any Superior power over their respective Congregâ—tions nor appeal in case of divisions among themselves unjust and injurious sentences given in their partial Judicatories Firm. They admit of no appeals or no coercive poâ—er over them in any Consistories Classis or Counsel One Congregational â—hurch may advise exhort or admonish another as brethren or equals but not punish or correct as Judges oâ— Superiors What do you say to this new knack of Church Government Dub. I think it to be Anarchical and confused the Natural Parent of all Schisms and Hereses I do not noâ— so much wonder how England of late years since this headless faction prevaild amongst us became a second Amsterdam What error what heresy so gross so damnable what injustice what oppression never so greivous which might not go unpunisht in such assemblys from which there lies no appeal how must they be broken into infinite fractions especially where the fear of a Common enemy does not unite and peice them together Firm. You rightly apprehend for all these dangers and inconveniences are the necessary consequents of Independent Congregations where any Popish Wolf in Sheeps Cloathing has a fair opportunity to sow the seeds of Anabaptism Quaquerism Socianism or any poysonous Heresy whatsoever to spread the principles of Sedetion and treason as has been of late to much practised in this Nation I wish such Tares be not still scattered in our separating Conventicles to this very day 'T was the observation of Sir Rob. Cotton above three-score yeaâ—s since that Priests and Jesuits did put on the habits of Captains Merchants c. that that they might deceive poor ignorant people under that disguise opera Posthu Pag. 148. Dub. You have said enough against this headless Church Goverment and the sad consequences of it I pray you proceed to the second thing you promised to debate concerning Independency Firm. The second error does concern tiths which generaly the Independents with other sectarys would perswade the world are a great oppression upon the people meerly Levitical and not due or lawfull under the Gospel Dub. I desire to hear from you what may be replyed to these cavils for I believe they are no better Firm. The paying of Tiths is no oppression upon the people no injury to them at all for if no free-holder Farmer or Tenant whatsoever ha's any legal or equitable right â—r title to the tenth part by purchase donation inheritance lease or by any other imaginable conveiance then the paying of Tiths can be no injury at all but the free holder Farmer or Purchaser ha's no legal right to the tenth part no more then the Minister has to the other nine because for many hundred years it has been invested in the Church by as good laws as any layman has right or title to the free hold Farm or lease which he has Purchased or pays rent for so that the tenth part cannot discend to any mâ—n by inheritance gift or puchase neither does any Tenant pay one Penny of rent to his Land lord for that part of the increase of Fruits Grain Grass or any other Commodity whatsoever Dub. Truly Sir I have heard as much and if Tithes were taken from the Church no question Landlords would raise their Rents and Fines and Purchasers would quickly find the price of land rais'd proportionably to a tenth part Firm. This is so plain that nothing but gross ignorance Envy and Malice against the Clergy can entertain the least doubt of it Dub. Sir you put me in mind of one thing which I have often thought upon and much wonderd at that generally those that go under the nâ—me of Protestants in your Church have little respect for their Ministers whereas Papists and Presbyterians shew great respect to theirs Firm. You need not wonder at it the true reason of this contempt is for want of Zeale to that Religion which thâ—y profess whereâ—s Papists and Presbyterians are Zealous in theirs But your meer formal Protestants of which number there are too many is a formal nothing one that is so far from the power of Godliness that he has not the naked formality of it Now there cannot be a greater sign of an irreligious Atheist then contempt of the Clergy for where they are despised God cannot be honoured nor Religion had in esteem if the Gentleman that has assigned reasons for the Contempt of the Clergy had thought on this t' would have been worth all the reasons in his whole Book but it may be he was so much a stranger to his own heart that he thought not of it Dub. But are not many Ministers themselves a chief cause that they are so contemned Firm. I was about to tell you so 't is much to be be wailed that too many in holy orders are through ignorance negligence in the duties of their calling loosness in
in the Bible Firm. I believe you yet you will not say that the best Sermon that ever was made by man is to be preferâ— before a portion of sacred Scripture The explication or application of the word mixt with much of mans conceptions before the pure word it self and esteem the hearing of it read useless and unlawful Dub. God forbid I should Firm. You see by this one instance how fallible your own phantiful experience has been and how it has lead you against Scripture against the general practise of the Church against all sober reason so dangerous a thing it is for men of short discourse that are not masters of reason but are guided to phansies over powred by passions engaged in parties to meddle with controversies which are too high and hard for them Dub. I confesse that 't was no great wonder that so mean a man as I should be mistaken but 't is very strange that so many grave and learned men as were in the late Assembly should be so much against the Common Prayer Book of the Church of England which I have heard learned men affirme to be the best Liturgie in the world Firm. 'T was very strange that so many learned men should be overborn by some leading men that had more zeal than judgmâ—nt and happily more of interest and designe then of learning and piety but as there have been Parliament-drivers so there have been Assembly-drivers and Convocation-drivers before you or I were born and will be after we are in our graves And I am confident thaâ— disgâ—ised Priests and Jesuits have had more then one finger in animating the Presbiterians against the Church of England as well as to my knowledge they have had in somenting Anabaptisme and Quaquerisme soâ— 't is their Maxime divide impera divide the Hereticks and wâ—e shall Reign I have more charity then to believe that the Assembly the greatest part of them were of opinion that set Forms of Prayer were either useless or unlawful though they cannot be excused from too much compliance I fear against their own judgments They could not be ignorant that the vote against the Book of Common-Prayer was contrary to the sentiments of the most learned men in all the Reformed Churches beyond Sea of very sober men in this Nation known heretofore by the name of Puritans the most discreet and moderate of that Party were never against set forms of the Reverend Bishops of the Church of England many of which sacred order have beeâ— as famous in their generation both for learning and piety as former ages ever knew yea since His Majesties happy Restauration the chiefest of the Presbiterian perswasion have acknowledged set forms of Prayer in publick to be lawful they plainly confess in their Conference with the Bishops they are not against them but every daies experience will make it evident they must be for them as well as not against them unlesâ— the late Assembly could have as easily voted and made all Ministers of the Church of England Discreet Judicious Orthodox and of a ready Elocution as they did rashly and inconsiderately vote down the Liturgie Besides the Congregation especially the weaker sort those tâ—at are ignorant and cannot read may better joyn in prayer when the Forms of iâ— are known and common then they can in strange â—nd extemporary expressions with which they are â—ltogether unacqainted which being the practise in the late tiâ—es of confusion has taught the people only to hear prayers as if they were so many Sermons wherein they were not at all concerned to joyn with their hearts and tongues and to say Amen or as if the ear were the only member to be imployed in that holy duty Again Set and prescribed Forms consisting of Scriptural phrases and expressions unaffected and â—â—tted to the understanding of the meanest câ—pacitie are soonest received into the heart and aptest to excite and carry along with them judicious and steady â—ffections as King Charles the Firâ—â— haâ— observed in his most excellent Book Hereunto may be added That out of well composed Forms the weaker Christians may be furnished with a stock of wholesome expressions composed by the advice joynt sistance of the cheif Pastors and Ministers of thâ— Church for their help and direction in their private Devotions which iâ— imposible to bâ— done by the suddain various uncertain expressions of divers particular Ministers Besides Set Forms are necessary for uniformity in the publick worship and upon this account learned and sober men have wished there were but one publick Liturgie in all Christian Churches in the world which if it were possible would be a great means of peace and unity amongst Christians by preventing the spreading of Schisms and Heresies that may be as well prayed up as preached up as also undecent unscriptural expressions tautologies vain-repetitions phantastical affected words and phrases utterly abhorrent from the sobriety and gravity of Divine Oratory which is quite another thing from that of the Stage or Desk Lastly Should we deal with an understanding Recusant endeavouring to perswade him to forsake his superstitious worship and to joyn himself to our Assemblies how could we assure him if we have no publick established Liturgie that our way and manner of worship is and shall continue Scripture-proof sound and innocent without errours and indecencies Do we think that any wise man would leave his Popish blind way of worship to be guided by our dark Lanthorn not being rationaly assured after what way we do worship the God of our Fathers which we cannot satisfie him in if we have no set Liturgie Dub. I very much approve of your reasons for Publick Set Forms of Prayer as also of your â—nswer to that argument drawn from Experience which appears so great and mighty to some mens vain imaginations but is indeed very weak and fallacious Firm. You must give me leave to adde Two things more in answer to that argument drawn from Experience and then we will discourse of those exceptions against our Common-Player in particular 1. I will oppose experience to experience those that reproâ—ch our Common-prayer for a cold and dry Service extolling extemporary conceptions so much beyond it let these men make this easie experiment to themselves Let them take some of thâ— best of extemporary prayers verbatim which your Short-hand-writers can exactly do let these prayers be read or repeated memoriter with all the advantages of pleasing tones bodily gesticulations lively pronunciations and assure your self they will at length appear to be as dull dry and cold as any part of our Liturgie 2. I would have you seriously consider what the most judiceous Hooker sayes concerning Sermons and Reading of Scripture why the former are so highly esteem'd and the other so much slighted the truth is they please more then Lessons and Chapters by reason of those outward advantages which a Sermon well delivered has above thâ— Scripture barely read besides the singular attention and affection which
men are apt to express toward the one and their cold disposition toward the other partly because 't is usual to let those things pass carelesly by our ears which we have often heard before or know we may haer again when ever we please and partly for that Sermons are new and fresh and if they slip by us for the present what excellencies soever they contain is lost which creats the grater atteâ—â—ion which causes the greater affections so far that worthy man This certainly is one great reason why set Forms of Prayer are so much undervalued in respect of extemporary and conceiv'd effusions Dub. I am abundantly satisfied that set Forms of Prayer are not only lawfull but very usefull in the Publike Service of the Church I shall now by your good leave descend to those exceptions which are made more particularly against the Liturgie of the Church of England First that 't is taken out of the Masse Book Secondly that it contains many shreds of Prayer which are short and customary wishes rather then serious and devout Prayers Thirdly that it appoints divers Apocryphal Chapters to be publikly read which contain things incredible and ridiculous As for those exceptions which are made against some particular passages in the body of the Liturgy they are so frivolous that they are not worth the trouble of a serious confutation he that pleases may see them sufficiently baffled by Mr Hooker Mr Ball himself a Nonconformist in his tryal of the grounds of Seperation with many others Firm. Your First excepâ—ion is the issue of Spite and Ignorance what though it contains many things that are in the Masse Book as the Creeds the Teâ— Commandments the Lords-Prayer and divers Collects Shall a true man refuse to take his goods and make the best he can of them because he finds them in a Theifs house Or shall the husbandman refuse pure wheat because 't was once mingl'd with chaff and tares albeit 't is now winnoâ—ed and sâ—fted Or shall we refuse Pauls Epistles because there are in them certain savory passages taken out of the writings of Idolatrous Heathens The Church of Rome was once a glorious Church true 't is it s now sadly corrupted yet as corrupt as 't is all is not chaff which that Church retains there remainâ— in her some good wheat which was in her before her novel superstitions were in their Swadling cloaths this wheat wee retain the châ—ff we hâ—ve blown away with a Fan of an orderly Reformation you see what a malicious cavil this is that our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Mâ—ss malice in some and ignorance in others have been the true parents of this groundless calumny 2. As to your Second exception that our Liturgie contains many short cuts and shreads of prayer pray you what do you think of the Publicans Prayer God be mercifull to me a sinner is any prayer in our Liturgie more short then that which our Saviour so well aproved Short ejacuculations concise forms Holy breathings of the Spirit are very frequent in the Scripture and past all peradventure very acceptable to Almighty God those that cavil at the shortness of our prayers and collects let them justify the length of theirs if they can from any one prayer in Scripture or Fathers that is a quater of an hower long Let any rational man who is acquainted with the nature of Prayer and humane infirmities seriously consider â—hether or no our Church has not carried her self very prudently both in the Method Phrase Form and ordering of her Service Are not all her holy Offices the matter and mostly the very words and choiâ—eâ—t portions of holy Scriptures what an unworthy calumny is it to tell the world our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Masse Could any thing be utter'd more fals and invidious those excellent Prayers She uses how are they â—itted to our infirmities mixed with Psalms Hymns and choise portions of Scripture is not this order and method more sutable to the weak capacities and unsteady attentions of the greatest part of the Congregation then a long extemporary Prayer for matter many times Heretical Schismatical Irreverent strangly bold unbeseeming a poor sinful Worme to offer up to the High and Dreadful Majesty of our Great and Good God Dub. I know by my own experience thâ—t long extemporary Prayers are very apt to dull â—nd deâ—den our attentions and I cannot deny but that sometimes I have been very much scandalized both at the matter as also at the un-Scriptural â—hantastical Affected expressions used in such Prayers which is not to be seen in the Common-Prayer Book whose phrase and words are very gravâ— and decent and being taken out of the word of â—od are most fit to be offer'd up to the Almighty God when we speak unto him in Prayer I am fully satisfied with the excellent Method Matter grave Oratory of the English Liturgie being 't is so consonant to and coresponding with the Holy Scripture So that I stand amaz'd at the impudence of those that first gave out that 't was borrowed from the Mass Book and at the dull ignorance of those that will believe so notoâ—ious a Lye The Book I acknowledge to be rarely compos'd and not onely useful in our publick Worship but also a very profitable directory for our Family private devotions Now to the last objection Were it not better that some Apochryphal Chapters were left out of the calender and Canonical Lessons set in their place Firm. Many learned men have indeed thought so and have wished for a change in this particular Mr Hooker has these words Those Ecclesiastical Books for so they were cald in auntient times not Apocryphal under which title were contain'd such Books which the Church allowed not at all to be read in publick I say those Ecclesiastical Books which in case my self did think as some do that 't were more safe and better that they were not to be read at all publikly nevertheless as in other things of like nature so in this I should be loath to oppose my private judgment against the force of their Reverend Authority considering the excellency of some things in all and of all things in certain of those Ecclesiastical Books which we publikly read and therefore I have thought it better to let them stand as a list or a marginal border unto the Old Testament and to grant at the least unto some of them publike audience in the house of God Dub. I do fully acquiess in the pious prudent and peaceable determination of this worthy man and so from the exceptions that are made against the liturgy I desire your discourse may proceed to those which are made against the Ceremonies of the Church 't is superfluous to name them all But only those which are most spoken against the Surplice the Ring in Marriage Bowing at the name of Jesus Kneeling at the Sacrament and especially the Cross in Baptisme which are said to be Popish and superstitions
justice of their cause are guilty before God os Treason Murder and Rebellion Dub. This censure is very severe and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Common-wealth much desired a reformation of them and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament whereupon such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires and great expectations in the minds of men that are of short discourse that these poor inconsiderable persons were engaged against King and Country before they had well weighed That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions That God has no need of the sinner That we must not do evil that good may come thereon But I am perswaded that these seduced men do see their former errors and are â—ruly penitent abominating from their hearts all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practises Firm. I much commend you for your Chariâ—y and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion acd are noâ— truly penitent my hearty prayers are that the Lord would be merciful unto them and bless them and shew them the light of his countenance My severe censure as you were pâ—â—ased â—o â—ail it was never intended against such but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance for their lifting up their hands against the Lord 's Anointed rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majestie that now swayes the Royal Scepter if they hid a fair opportunity Disobedience is a long step to Rebellion and is it not evident that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient more refractory against his Majesties Laws Ecclesiastical then those that lived before the late warrs who though they were Non-conformists yet were they not Separatists Brownists as our present Non-conformists for the most part are some of them Mr. as Ball in his Tryal of the grounds of Separation and others smartly wriâ—ng against such Fanatiâ—ks And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men they might see by a wonderful providence the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertakings How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing hoâ— miraculously was our Gratious Soveraign preserved against all their Treasonable attempts and brought to the Throne of his Fathers with the greatest honor most general expressions of love and rejoycing that ever any Prince received from â—oyal Subjects and all this without the spilâ—ing of one drop of blood The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People to keep this signâ—l dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance not to ruine theÌ„selves by Atheism Irreligion Profaneness or any enormous wickedness for which the wrath of God has bâ—en pouâ—ed out in full Viols upon wicked Kings and ungodly people as Sacred and other â—iâ—â—ories do sâ—sficiently manifest Dub. It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamsters that having a bad game dealt them desire the Cards might be shuffl'd again that they might have a better Stock but I am perswaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoyn'd Firm. You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies as to the Covenant tho it hâ—s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had dyed without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenuntiâ—tion yet being it was peccant in all the four causes the Efficient Formal Material and Final 't was expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince besides there seems to be a signal judgment in it that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaleers out of their Livings should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and â—igid Imposers of it for many of those were undon because they would not take it these because they would not Renounce it Nec lex est justior ulla Quam necis artifices arte perire sua 'T is Justice Law that he should feel the smart Who was first Author of that cruel Art I remember what Tacitus sayes of Cajus Vibius Eò immitior quia toleraverat And 't is like that the Cavileers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant would when power was in their hands make use of the Law of Retaliation by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity how ever 't is a remarkable peice of Divine Providence that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy should suffer by it without mercy Dub. But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them as to act by the Law of Retaliation of Spite and Revenge there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected Firm. We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it as to make tryal who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects who not for as 't was said before he that conceives himself bound by the Scotcâ—-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace I hartily wish that 't were not prest upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion that so we that have one Faith one Baptisme one Hope one Lord Iesus Christ one God the Father of all might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace which is both our duty and our interest if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys Dub. 'T is not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among our selves would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State who leâ—ve no Stone unturn'd to divide us that they might Reign over us and perswade us by their most cogent Arguments which are Gun-Powder Fire and Fagot Bloody Massacres to embrace their gross Superstition and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better imploy'd in devout Prayer Holy Meditation in Mortification of our Corruptions in duties of Piety towards Almighty God of Love Mercy and Charity one towards another And now Sir give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgments for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks and Bogs of Atheisme Infidelity Schisme and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Englâ—nd in whose Faith and Communion Thou O Father of Mercies Prince of Peace and God of all Consolation ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity â— grant that I may continue unto â—y Lives end and that I may so continue I beg your daily Prayers Firm. 'T is our great Christian duty to Pray one for another I shall not be wanting in the performance of it for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholick Christianity and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions and supplications at the Throne of Grace Blessed be the God of all power and wisdome who has thus prosper'd my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your waies I will ad no more but this that you be true to the Doctrine Worship Discipline of our Church as they are contain'd in the Articles Liturgie Canons and Rubricks of it hold not any truth in Unrighteousness let your practise shew to the World that you truly and heartily believe what you profess be honest just in your Dealings towards men Temperate and Sober towards your selfe serious and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God and whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are true whatsoever things are just Holy Lovely of good report Think on these things Practise these things make not the actions of men the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times humane Laws your rule to walk by but let the holy will and word of God be the adequate measure of your Life and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule and Peace and Mercy shalll be upon you as a true Israelite and one of Gods Peculiar People Amen FINIS ERRATA PAge 9. l. 11. read Dependent p. 12. l. 10. for puting r. putting p. 21. for their r. there p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes p. 70 l. 26. â— some of the Church p. 83. l. 12. for suspition r. superstition p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse is misplaced p. 113. â—r â— â—ot â—ankfulness p. 116.25 r. licence p. 119. l. 22. r. clear p. 121. l. 25. â— who was of p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well p. 129. l. 13. r. stiled p. 132. l 29. r. that sit at the Stern p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end p. 136. l. â— r. throw away p. 138. l. 19. r. by phansies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance p. 155. l. 15. r. â—â—tâ—rioâ—sly ibid. 2â— 1 suspension p. 1â—5 l. â—3 r. suspensions †Dr. Moors Antidote and Dr. Stillingsâ—eets Orig. Sacrae pâ—g 395. R. B. Câ—â—visse videas crescere non vides see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith Cenâ—â—l 〈◊〉 Sâ—ss 12. Câ—n. 1. Non imagini sâ—d numini sacrificamus Ae Mr Fowes History 2 Cor. 10.4 Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2 Rom. 13.1 Pet. 2. Ier. 4.2 Deut. 6.13 Heb. 6.16 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6 1 Cor. 1.14 Act. 2. Math. 28. 1. Cor. 9. â—poâ— 2.3 †'T was not long since that some of the Presbyterian aâ—d Iâ—pendent perswasion were Deans and Caâ—ons of Christ Church in Oxford such Dâ—gnities not then thought to be useless and Aâ—â—i-christian why should they be esteemed so now