nâ—…n at Louaine that ye would be thought no hedgeâ—…réeper â–ª nor â—…uedropper as sâ—… of your broode are peaking here in lusâ—…y lanes and lurking in corners and yet they court theÌ„ selues no more Donatistes than you NotwithstaÌ„ding it appeareth for all your crakes bragges ye haue not that stout courage fâ—…r your raâ—…se but that ye like Louaine better than M. 〈◊〉 â—…ging and had rather blow your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 lâ—…ytorer in a lusky lane or hide your head 〈◊〉 the corner of an old â—…otten barne rather than warme your selfe with a â—…aggot aâ—… a â—…ake in Smithfielde suche as was the crueltie of your Popish tyrannie to those that constantly abode the terrible brunt therof And although other giuing place to your furie either of their owne infirmitie or that God preserued them to a better oportunitie did then flée or hide them selues what dyd they héerein that Chryst gaue them not licence example and commaundement so to do Ye might aswell obiect this to those Saincts of God of whome S. Paule telleth that they wente about in the wildernesse of whome the worlde was vnworthy Why say ye not Elias lurked in lusky lanes when he sted the face of Iesabell Why say ye not that Athanasius crepte into corners when he hidde him selfe seueÌ„ yeres in a Cesterne an harder harborough than a rotten barne For shame M. Stap. learne to make a difference betwéene the perfecution and the cause of it or else this were an easie argument to make all Donatistes yea your selues also And would to God all corners rotten barnes and luskie lanes were wel ransacked some luskes I think would appeare in their likenesse whom ye would be loth should be founde out M. Stapleton Thirdly ye say The donatistes when they could not iustifie their owne doctrine nor disproue the Catholikes doctrine leauing the doctrine fell to rayling agaynst the vitious life of the Catholikes In this poynt who be Donatistes I referre me to Luthers and Caluines bookes especially to M. Iewell and to your owne Apologie Ye nâ—…ede not M. Stap. referre your selfe so farre referre your selfe to your selfe a Gods name yea go no further than this your Counterblast I warrant ye you blow such a blast héerein that ye maye well encounter master D. Harding master D. Saâ—…ders M. Dorman M. Marshall or any other of your writers thoughe they haue all godly giftes in this poynt yet this your Rhel horicall grace of rayling goeth so farre beyonde them all that they are scarse worthy to cary the wispe after you M. Stap. Onely at this I maruell that like the wiseman when he tolde how many were in the companie he neuer reckoned him selfe that you hauing so pregnant a vayne héerein do still forget your selfe But belike it is for this cause that as ye surmount all your companie so ye goe beyonde the Donatistes also who as ye saye rayled onely agaynst the vitious lyues But you where ye finde no vitious life to rayle agaynst the Protestantes fall to slaundering and reuiling euen their godly and vertuous liues Fourthly ye say The Donatistes refused the opeÌ„ knowne catholike Churche and sayde the Church remayned onely in those that were of their side in certaine corners of Afrike And sing not you the like song preferring your Geneua VVittenberge before the whole Churche beside The Donatistes as you say M. St. tied the Churche to Affrike and wrested the scripture for it forsaking the open knowne catholike Church in déede But you shoulde haue proued your popish Church to be that open knowne catholike Church now which they refused then If ye saye you proue that bicause they refused the church of Rome then your church is the church of Rome now if ye vnderstaÌ„d the church for the coÌ„gregation of the faythful ye vtter a double vntruth For they-refused not only the coÌ„gregation then at Rome but of al the world besides and agayne your church or congregation of Rome now is nothing the same or lyke the same in religion that it was then If ye meane by the church of Rome the Citie of Rome and the Popes chayre there then ye proue your selues to be Donatistes that tye the churche of Christ dispersed euery where to the seate of Rome as they did vnto Aphrike And if ye meane by the open knowne catholike Churche the multitude of people acknowledging your Popes sâ—…ate at Rome then agayne are ye Donatists by your second poynt in craking of multitude depending on Rome a corner in Italie as ye saye the Donatistes craked of their multitude depeÌ„ding on their corners in Affrike As for vs we depende neither vpon Geneua nor VVittenberge nor tye the Church of Christ vnto them nor preferre them either before the whole catholike church or any parte thereof nor referre men vnto them for the triall of the Church or to any other place else but allow them and all and singuler other places where the worde of God is sincerely set fooâ—…th where Idolatrie errours superstition are abolished We 〈◊〉 to the mountaynes as Chrysostome expoundeth it Quâ—… sunt Christiani conferant se ad scripturaâ—… They that are ChristiaÌ„s let them get them to the scriptures And why not to Rome Ierusalem and suche other mountaynes but onely to the scriptures Bicause saith he since that heresie hath possessed the Churches there caÌ„ be no triall of true christianitie nor refuge of Christians that would trie out the truthe of fayth but the deuine scriptures Before it coulde haue bene knowne diuers wayes whiche was the Church which was Gentilitie But nowe there is none other wayes to know which is in deede the very church of Christ but all onely by the Scriptures If they therefore set foorthe the Scriptures we acknowledge them to be of the Church of christ Let Rome doe this and we will as gladly acknowledge Rome to be of the Churche of Chryst as either Wittenberge or Genâ—…ua â–ª Yea as S Hierome sayth which is also put in the Popes owne decrées Eugâ—…bium Constantinople Rhegium Alexandrie Thebes Guarmatia or any other place if it professe the truthe with Geneua and Wittenberge For on this consideration sayth S. Augustine the Churche is holy and catholike not bicause it dependeth on Rome or any other place nor of any multitude obedient to Rome bothe whiche are Donatisticall but quia recte credit in DeuÌ„ bicause it beleeueth rightly on God. This is our song M. Stap. of Geneua VVittenberge Affrica yea and of Rome too And if you can sing any better note I giue you good leaue for me onely I would wish you howsoeuer ye sing to leaue your flat lying tune in saying Fifthly say you The Donatistes corrupted the fathers bookes wonderfully and were so impudent in alleaging them that in their publique conference at Carthage they pressed muche vpon Optatus wordes and layde him foorth as an author making for theÌ„ who yet wrote expresly against them and in all
of Christe for Ieremie is interpreted the highe one of the Lorde who destroyed the kingdomes of the Diuell whiche he shewed vnto him on the toppe of the Mountayne hee destroyed the aduersarie powers blotting out the handewriting of errour in his Crosse. Of whome nexte to the hystoricall truthe it is sayde in a figure VVherefore did the Nations frette and the people imagine vayne thinges the Kinges of the earthe stoode vp and the Princes came togither in one In the place of all these beeing destroyed loste and pulled downe into hell the Churche of God is builded vp and planted Thus saith your owne Glosse in applying this sentence from Ieremie to Christe concerning Christes pulling downe and setting vp of kingdomes And on this wyse oughte the Ministers of Christe to pull downe and set vp kingdomes that is with the sworde of Gods worde to beate down â–ª the power of Sathan the kingdome of errour the buylding on the sandes the workes of sinne to roote vp vices and to beate downe as S. Paule termeth them all strong holdes resisting the truthe of God and to set vp the kingdome of Christ to edifie his Church to builde vpon the rocke to plante vertues and by doctrine and ensample enstruct the faythfull people And so dothe youre owne Glosse interprete it Vt euellas mala destruas regna Diaboli That thou shouldest pull vp euils and destroy the Kingdomes of the Diuell c. and shouldest edifie the Churche Wherevpon saythe the Glosse To foure heauie thinges two ioyfull thynges succeede for neyther can good thinges be buylded except the euill thinges be destroyed neither can the best thinges be planted excepte the worste thinges be rooted vp For euery plante that my heauenly father hathe not planted shall be pulled vp by the rootes and that buylding whiche is not buylded on the rocke but vpon the sandes is digged vp and destroyed with the worde of god But that which the Lorde shall consume with the spirite of his mouthe that is all sacrilegious and peruerse doctrine he shall destroy it for euer and those things that lifte vp them selues agaynst the kingdome of God and truste in their wisedome VVhiche before God is foolishnesse he shall scatter and put them downe that for these the humble thinges mighte be edified And in place of the former thinges that are destroyed and pulled vp those things may be buylded and planted that are conuenient to the ecclesiastical truth of whom it is saide you are the buylding of God you are the tilth of God. Héere M. sand euen by your owne glosse is described what this building and pulling downe is that belongeth to the ministers of Christ so farre vnlike your Popishe buylding that it sheweth the ouerthrowe and rooting vp of your plantes and buylding and howe your kingdome shall vtterly be destroyed In the ouerthrowing of whiche munitions and buylding the truth of God the ministers of Christ muste so set themselues agaynst all worldly kingdomes that fearing not their mighte and tyrannie agaynst the truthe they ouercome them As God sayde to Ieremie Girde vp thy loynes and arise and speake vnto them all those thinges that I commaunde thee Feare not their faces for I wil make thee not to feare their faces For I haue made thee this day a strong citie and an yron piller and a brasen wall ouer al the lande to the Kings of Iuda and to the Princes therof and to the Priests and to the people thereof and they shall not preuaile for I am with thee saithe the Lorde and wil deliuer thee If the kinges of Iuda sayth the Glosse whiche is interpreted confession and the Princes and Priestes and people of it to witte the Bishops the Priestes and Deacons and the vile and vnnoble vulgar people will arise agaynst an holy man let him haue a strong faithe and feare not let him trust in God and he shall conquere them Héere is the conquest of these kingdomes whereby the true Ministers of God shall ouercome all Kings and Princes all Bishops Priestes and Deacons and all the people that resist them But this is as farre from deposing kings from their estates from ruling possessing and translating earthly kingdomes as you that séeke after all these things are farre from Ieremies from Christes and from his Ministers conquests But sayth M. Saunders the Protestantes who can not suffer that the fleshe giue place vnto the spirite or the temporall kingdome to the spirituall for euery where they fauour too muche the fleshe and the worlde before all thinges they alleage agaynst vs the saying of Christe my kingdome is not of this worlde we muste see therefore what Christe in those wordes woulde haue vnderstoode For the Protestantes wrest them hitherto as thoughe the Ministers of the Church of Christ which is the kingdom of God may haue at any time no power ouer Christian Princes or ouer their earthly kingdomes and causes subiect to them bicause the kingdome of Christ himselfe is not of this worlde But in this thing they are too fouly deceyued For it is another thing â–ª not to be of this worlde and farre another thing that the Christian kingdome that is in this world shoulde not be subiect to Christ and to the Ministers of christ VVhen Christ denieth his kingdome to be of this worlde either by the name of this world is vnderstoode sinne and the tyrannie of sinne and the masse of the reprobate as the Lorde otherwhere faithe you are not of the worlde if you were of the worlde the world would loue his owne but I haue chosen you out of the worlde or else by the name of the worlde is vnderstoode all this visible creature whereof the faythfull also are parte so long as they liue heere If therefore by the worlde we vnderstand darknesse and sinne and the reprobates of this world certaine it is the kingdome of Christ is by no meanes of this world bicause all the kingdome of Christe is lighte and darknesse is not in his kingdome who lightneth euery man comming into this worlde But if by the worlde we meane the visible creatures and among them compreheÌ„d the Churche of God verily â—…e denieth not that those creatures are subiect vnto him or that these temporal kingdomes that beleeue in him are comprehended vnder his eternall kingdome But he denieth that his kingdome is from hence that is to say taketh his originall of this world as other kingdomes are wonte to do For the kingdome of Christe sâ—…rang not from the law of nations as other kingdomes do but from the diuine and naturall yea and from the supernatural lawe VVherevpon Augustine marked that Christe saide not my kingdome is not heere but it is not from hence for in the worlde it is but of the â—…orlde it is not but of heauen Héere M. sand hauing as he thinketh confirmed his opinion will now assay to confute our obiection agaynst it And to this purpose
turne ye are to gredie man remember that qui cupit totum perdit totum But let vs sée your sixe demaundes whether they be reasonable and to be graunted yea or no. There are therefore say you many thinges to be considered first that Christ lefte one to rule his vvhole Churche in his steade from time to time vnto the ende of the vvorlde Is this your first request to be considered and graunted M. Stapleton now surely a reasonable demaund to be considered vpon And woorthie to haue that Salomon graunted to Adonias for asking of Abisaâ—…g to wife Wise king Salomon saw he might aswell haue asked the crowne from his head yea his head from his shoulders and who so vnwise that seeth not ye might aswell aske the whole controuersie to be graunted you and graunt ye this what néede ye propounde your other principles following How be it let vs sée what they be also Secondly we muste consider ye say that this one vvas S. Peter the Apostle and novv are the Bishops of Rome his successours Out of doubt ye had on some great considering câ—…ppe M. Stapleton when you considered that the Bishop should haue considered this He was much to blame he considered it not but M. Stapl. and ye were as wise as God might haue made you ye would haue better coÌ„sidered with your selfe than to thinke others haue so litle consideration as to graunt ye this your false and foolishe principle Thirdly say you that albeit the Bishop of Rome had no such vniuersall gouernment ouer the vvhole yet that he is and euer vvas the Patriarche of Englande and of the vvhole VVest Church and so hath as much to do here as any other Patriarche in his Patriarchshippe It is a signe M. Stap â–ª ye shrewdly doubte the former twains woulde neuer be graunted that so soone would be content to become a Patriarche of a piece from a Pope of the whole which though it sheweth lesse haughtinesse in you that would play small game rather than sit out yet perchance your Pope is of Alexanders spirite to whome Darius hauing offred halfe his dominions if I were Alexander ê™ Parmenio I would take it so would I ê™ Alexander if I were Parmenio And so perchance your Pope will say to you if I were Master Stapleton I would be content at least to be a Patriarche and perchance a worse rowme woulde serue But beyng the Bishop of Rome he will say Aut Papa aut nihil And therefore least ye get his curse before ye aske our consent the surest way were to know how he will like of this your limitation and when he shal be content then propose it to vs to consider thereon But I see ye like not greatly to stande hereon for fourthly say you Then all vvere it that he had nothing to intermedle vvith vs nor as Pope nor as Patriarche yet can not this supremacie of a ciuill Prince be iustified VVhereof he is not capable especially a vvoman but it must remayne in some spirituall man. Your must is very mustie M. Stapl. and smelleth of the pumpe of Romes ship Your Sequence is as badde the B. of Rome neyther as Pope nor as Patriarche is supreme gouernour in Ecclesiasticall causes in England Ergo No ciuill Prince man or woman is capable of it Againe There must be one spirituall man that must haue an vniuersall gouernment ouer the whole Churche Ergo â–ª A ciuill Prince may haue no particuler gouernement in his particuler Churche The antecedents in déede are true of bothe For neither hath the Pope as Pope or Patriarche or any otherwise any supreme gouernement ouer Englande as you presuppose he had none and yet the Prince both may haue and hath some supreme gouernement ouer vs For in déede all supreme gouernement suche as the Pope vsurped she neither hath nor may haue nor requireth nor belongs to any creature but is due to Christ alone He is that spirituall man that your other antecedent speaketh of if ye meane him it is true if you meane any other it is but your false presupposall though the consequentes whereon we stande followeth neither way neither doe ye laboure once to proue them But is here all things we muste consider no say you for fiftly Besides this the Catholikes say that as there vvas neuer any such president heretofore in the catholike Church so at this present there is no suche excepte in Englande neither among the Lutherans the Suinglians the Suenkfeldians or Anabaptists or any other secte that at this day raygneth or rageth in the vvorlde None of these I say agnyse their ciuill Prince as supreme gouernour in al causes spirituall and temporall Let goe these raging termes of sectes M. Sta. to their common places and I pray ye tell vs once agayne who sayth thus Who euen the Catholikes say so But whome meane you by the Catholiks The Papists Then gentle M. Stap. haue me commended to those your Papisticall Catholikes that ye say say so and aske them agayne if all be Gospell that they do say or no. Tushe man will M Stap. replie will ye not beléeue the Catholikes Why then sixtly and Laste of all I saye and M. Feck vvill also say that euen M. Horne him selfe in this his aunsvvere retreateth so farre back from his assertion of supreme gouernement in all causes spirituall and temporall vvhiche is the state and keye of the vvhole question that he plucketh from the Prince the chiefe and principall matters and causes ecclesiasticall as vve shall hereafter playnely shevve by his ovvne vvordes This geare goeth harde indéede The B. is nowe driuen to asore straight But syr might a man be so bolde to aske your mastership what are you and M. Feck are ye not Catholikes that when ye haue saide the catholikes say so ye come rushing in say Last of all I say and M. Feck vvill also say you make vs doubte least ye be no Catholikes and withall to suspect when ye cal your selfe and your client M. Feck to witnesse some partialitie in your sayings least the sole will holde with the shoe and that as two false witnesses came in agaynst our sauiour Christ with I say so and he vvill say so also so woulde you compact togither to slander the B. herein with I say so and M. Feck vvil say so also But by both your leaues may I be so bolde as to set your I say so and his I say so also asyde and desire ye to proue your so saying Why say you doubt ye of that we shall here after plainly shevve it by hys owne vvordes These are but vvords M. Stap. and ioly promises if ye can shevve it so playnly why shevve ye it not playnly here where ye say it so playnly or else haue shevved at the least where the B. doth thus which till ye shall playnely shewe this your â–ª bolde and playne saying may be suspected for a playne lye But M. Stap. shaking of the further
And herein hath the Quéenes highnes followed as ye say both her Fathers and Brothers faith also But ye wring al to that faith wherein he was before beguiled as though she should follow him in that he was deceiued not wherein he founde out forsoke the deceyuers that you with your painted wordes might likewise deceyue her Highnes now as they deceâ—…ued her Maiest father then But sée how God turned their deceyt agaynst them selues That where your Pope to flatter K. Henrie withall ascribed to him this title as it were the prophecie of another Caiphas Defender of the faith the King espying the falshood of the Pope became the very defender of the true faith in déede abolishing the Pope the very impugner peruerâ—…er therof and so as you say truer than ye wist M. Stap. atchieued to him and his and transported as by hereditarie succession the worthy title and stile yet remaining in her Highnesse of the defendour of the faith Neither as you faintly say this title onely remayneth in her Highnes but the thing that the title doth entende her highnesse is in very déede not in a â—…aked name the defender thereof And hath defended her subiects not from foreyne power of straungers onely brought in by the Papistes and from all bodily iniurie and oppression of Popish firebrandes or any other tirannie but defendeth euen our faith from all errours heresies superstitions and Idolatries And this it is for a Prince to be a defender of the faith in déede which argueth a plaine supremacie Now after M. Stapl. hath thus flattred and on his knees humbled him selfe to obtayne a placard of their disobedience vp he starteth once againe and geueth another fling at vs to reuerse this crime of disobedience on vs thinking so to excuse this disobedience of the Papistes thereby And first he setteth on those whome he calleth round cap Ministers howbeit if he remembred that within this hundreth yeres and vpward the popish priestes themselues did weare round cappes he would not be so hastie to giue that nick name He asketh who are those that haue preached with a chaine of golde about their neckes in steade of a tippet Assoyle your question your selfe M. Stapl. I know no such protestant What slaunderous reporte you haue heard of any singuler person I know not no such order is alowed Although it be common among your popish Cardinals Bishops Abbottes Deanes Canons and other beyonde the Seas so to ruffle as ye speake not onely with a chayne of golde but with hatte and feather cappe and agglets rapier and cloke hawke and houndes ruffians fooles wayting on them and oftentimes in complete harneys on a great courser or on a palfrey with a courtisane behinde them thus go the chiefest of your fleshly spiritualtie belike they learned it of that royster Pope Iohn 13. howbeit no Pope doeth amende this disorder Upbrayd not therefore such petit and perticular things to vs which is so great and so common a fault with you But Master Stapleton will go more certainely to worke and charge the Protestantes ex scripto wyth their owne writings VVho are those I pray you sayth he that write sint sanè ipsi Magictratuâ—… membra paries ciues ecclesiâ—…dei imo vt ex toto corde sint omnes precari decet Flagrent quoque ipsi zelo pietatis sed non sint capita Ecclesiâ—… quia ipsis non competit iste 〈◊〉 Let the Magistrates also be members and partes and citizens of the Church of God yea and that they maye bee so it behoueth vs all wyth all our heart to praye Let them bee feruent in the godly zeale of Religion but they may not be heades of the Churche in no case for thys supremacie doth not appertaine to them These are no Papists I trow M. Horne but your owne dere brethren of Magdeburge in their new storie ecclesiasticall by the which they would haue all the worlde directed Yea in that storie wherof one percell Illiricus and his fellowes haue dedicated to the Queenes maiestie that beare the worlde in hande they are the true and zelous schollers of Luther Thus triumpheth M. Stapleton against the wryters of the storie of Magdeburge The effect of his argument is this These wryters do say that Princes may not be heades of the Church Ergâ—… no prince ouer all Ecclesiasticall persons causes in his owne dominions may be supreme gouernour Howe euill this argument followeth is easie to perceyue and the better in behâ—…lding howe impudently master Stapleton wresteth these wryters But he forceth not thereof bicause they be his aduersaries For that which they write not simplie agaynst the supremacie of princes in Ecclesiasticall causes but agaynst suche supremacie of princes as the Pope vsurped that wresteth he as spoken agaynst such supreme gouernment as the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and vseth The writers hereof hauing set forth two â—…nsamples of that age the one of a godly princes gouernmet by Constantinus Pogonotus the other of a wicked tyrant by â—…eraclius to declare what kinde of supremacie they disalow Thâ—…y she we that this is the scope of the matter iste est scopuâ—…res ê™ magistratibuâ—… politicis non sit licitum cudere formaâ—… religionuÌ„ in perniciem veritatis ita vel coÌ„cilietur veritaâ—… meÌ„daâ—…ium vel vtraque simul sopiant id quod tandem â—…um habet exitum vt regnent errores veritas crucifigatur sepeliatur This is the â—…cope of the matter that it is not lawfull for politike magistrates to coyne formes of religion to the destruction of the truth so that thereby truth and falsehoode should be reconciled togither or both of them togither quayled VVhich at the length commeth to this ende that errors raigne the truth is crucified buried And so followeth the sentence that M. St. citeth let the magistrates also be mebers c. but let them not be heades of the Church Whereby appeareth plainly what maner of heades they meane And this they do not once nor twise setting forth the doings of the wicked â—…yrant Heraclius for ensample that was altogither led by affection and not indifferent to heare â—…ither party nor called in counsell lerned and faithfull men nor called any synode to trie the matter nor serched the truth diligently but being puffed vppe with pride and deuising oâ—…ely with a flattring Monke that after set vp the false fayth of Mahomet determineth in a corner of a moste weightie controuersie and afterwardes will haue the matter neuer called into question This Emperour they call Architectum religionis and demaund what man well in his wittes woulde alowe such attempts processe and executions concluding it is not lawfull form as religionum conflare c. To make newe formes of religions and obtrude them to the Church without all kind of godly honest modest and comely gainsaying refuting therof All this and much more say they of that kinde of supreme gouernement in
that said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop betweene him that fasted and that did not fast and that the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse Howe say you to Iouinian that denied virginitie to haue any excellencie aboue Matrimonie or any speciall rewarde at Gods handes to the Arians that denied the miracles done at Saints tombes to be true Miracles and that the Martyres can not cast out the Diuels and relieue them that be possessed To the Bogomiles that said the Diuels sate at the Saints tombes and did wonders there to illude and deceyue the people to cause the people to worship them To Berengarius condemned in diuerse Councels first for denying of the Real presence in the Sacrament of the Altare and then for denying the Transubstantiation To the Paulicians that said these woordes of Christ take eate this is my bodie are not to be vnderstanded of his bodie or the bread and wine vsed at the celebration of our Lordes maundie but of the holy Scriptures â–ª which the priestes should take at Christes hande and deliuer and distribute to the people To Claudius and Vigilantius that denied the inuocation of Saintes and enueighed against the blessed reliques and the vse of lightes and other ceremonies of the Church To the Massilians and other heretikes saying that concupiscence as a sinne remaineth in vs after holy baptisine And bicause ye shall not say I suppresse conceale or obscure the chiefe and most notable persons of your auncestrie how say ye to the Emperours Philippicus Leo Constantinus condemned with their adherentes by the seuenth general Councel at Nice that villayned by defacing breaking and burning the images of all the holy hallowes of Christ and Christes to to whome for your more honour and glorie I adioyne the Emperour Iulianus the Apostata VVho as ye do in your bookes and pulpits cried out vppon the Christians O ye wretched men that worship the wood of the Crosse setting vp the signe of it vppon your foreheads and dores you therefore that are of the wisest sorte are worthy to be hated and the residue to be pitied that treading after your steppes come to such a kinde of wretchednesse To the Pelagians affirming that children not Baptised shal be saued and yet are your Maisters in this point worse than the Pelagians aswell for that some of them haue saide that some infantes though vnbaptized shal be damned and some other though vnbaptized shal be saued And some of them especially Caluine and other Sacramentaries say that they shall come without Baptisme to the kingdome of heauen which the Pelagians durst not say but that they should haue the life euerlasting putting a difference but peeuishlie betwixt these two And if ye thinke the race of your worthie generation is not fetched high inough we wil mount higher and as high as may be euen to Simon Magus him selfe Of whome Marcion and Manicheus and after long and honorable succession your Patriarches Luther and Caluine haue learned their goodly doctrine against free will. Yea to touche the very fundation and wellspring of this your new Gospell which altogether is grouÌ„ded vpon Iustification without good works in that also ye draw very nigh to the said Simon Magus In all this here is nothing els but the heaping vp of an impertinent sâ—…launderous and maliciouse rable partely of Heretikes partely of no Heretikes some of them falsely belied most of them falsely applied eyther they defending no such things or some of these us Heresies nor any of their Heresies mainteyned of vs. First for the Arianisme of Aerius with whom M. Stapleton beginneth would God the Papistes had not as much defaced the glory of Christ as did the Ariaus but he findeth no faulte with them therefore He vpbraydeth to vs thrée other pointes First that Aerius said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop and ye aâ—…e M. Stapleton how say we to him What soeuer we say to him we haue first to say to you that sauing the reuerence of your Priesthood there is no difference betweene you and a lier to obiect Aerius herein to vs Whereas ye know well inough our Church doth acknowledge in the ministerie a difference of Deacon and Elder from a Bishop although not according to your Popish orders For as neyther Epiphanius nor yet Augugustine quoted by you speaketh there of any sacrificing Priest so he neuer knewe any such Pontificall prelates as your Popishe Churche bréedeth And yet of those that were euen then in Epiphanius time and of their difference from the Elders or Priestes if ye know not how it came Hierome that liued in the same age will tell you or if ye haue not redde him your owne Canons will tell ye what he saithe I dem est ergo Presbyter qui Episcopus antequam Diabols studia c. An Elder or Priest therefore is the same that a Bishop and before that the studies of the Diuell were made in Religion and that the people saide I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas the Churches were gouerned by the common Counsell of the Elders but after that euery one did accompt those to be his and not to be Christes whome he had Baptized in all the worlde it was decreed that one of the Elders being chosen should be placed aboue the rest to whom all the care or charge of the Church should belong and the seede of scismes be taken away And a litle after Sicut ergo Presbyteri as therefore the Elders know that they by the custome of the church are subiect to him that is set ouer them so let the Bishops know that they more by custome than by the truth of the Lordes dispeÌ„sation are greater than the Elders This was the iudgement of the auncient Fathers yet were they no Arians nor Aerians therefore Yea Peter Lombarde the maister of the sentences citing also Isidorus to witnesse saith Apud vetereâ—… idem Episcopi Presbyterâ—… fuerunt Among the auncient Fathers Bishops and Elders were all one And againe alleaging the Apostle S. Paule he saith Qualis autem â–ª c. But what manner an Elder ought to be chosen the Apostle writing to Timothie declareth where by the name of Bishop he signifieth an Elder And anon after Cumque omnes and when all of them he meaneth his false seueÌ„ orders are spirituall and holy yet the Canons account only two orders to be excelling holie that is to say Deaconship and Eldership Bicause the primitiue Churche is redde to haue these alone and we haue the Apostles commaundement of these alone for the Apostles in euery Citie ordeined Bishops and Elders Neyther the Master only writeth thus but almost all your schoolemen yea though they be them selues of the contrarie opinion yet they write this was the auncient opinion And so Durandus though he make a difference betwéene the power of Iurisdiction the power of order yet he sheweth that
both the Scripture S. Hierome maketh no differeÌ„ce but only the custome institution of the Church The Apostle saith he writing to the Philippenses cap. 1. saith With the Bishops and the Deacons by them vnderstanding the Elders sith in one citie as in Philippos many Bishops ought not to be Agayne Act. 2. he saith Looke to your selues and to all the flocke in which the holy ghost hath placed you to be Bishops And he spoke vnto them of the onely citie of Ephesus But this appeareth more expresly to Titus the. 1. Where he saith for this cause I haue left thee at Crete that thou shouldest correct those things that want ordeine Elders through out the cities eueÌ„ as I haue apointed to thee if any be blamelesse the husbaÌ„d of one wife And streight he setteth vnder it a B. must be blamelesse And whoÌ„ before he named an Elder he calleth now a Bishop And in the. 4. of the. 1. to Timothie Dispise not saith he the grace of God which is giuen to thee through the imposition of the handes of an Elder that is to say of a Bishop S. Paule called him selfe an Elder when he was the Bishop that ordeined him Thus far more at large DuraÌ„dus concluding at leÌ„gth Sic ergo Thus therfore saith S. Hierome that a Bishop and an Elder Olim fueruÌ„t nominâ—… synonymâ—… c. were in the old time diuerse names betokening one thing indiffereÌ„tly and also of one administration â–ª bicause the Churches were ruled by the commune Counsell of the Priestes But for the remedie of a scisme least each one drawing the Churche after him should breake hir it was ordeyned that one should be aboue the rest et quâ—…ad nomeÌ„ c. And so far forth as stretcheth to the name that he onely should be called Bishop and that so farre as stretcheth to the administration of some Sacraments and Sacramentals they should be reserued to him by the custome coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of the Church And this would Hierome expresly 93. Dist. cap. legimuâ—… in Esa. super epistolam ad Tit. recitatur Dist. 93. cap. Olim presbyterâ—… c. Consuetudo aut institutio Ecclesiae potest dare Iurisdictiâ—…nem sed non potestatem ordinis aut consecrationis quare c. He therefore that counteth this erroneouse or perilous let him impute this to Hierome out of whose saying in the fore alleaged chapter Legimus in Esa. the foresaide authorities are takeÌ„ VVhere also he putteth an exaÌ„ple That it is of a Bishop in respect of priests as of an Archdeacon in respect of Deacons vnlesse the Deacons choose one among them selues whom they call Archdeacon c. In the end DuraÌ„dus recoÌ„ciling Hierome saith and the authorities alleaged by Hierome withstande it not bicause according the name and the truth of the thing euery Bishop is an Elder and on the other parte so farre as stretcheth to the name euery Elder hauing cure may be called a Bishop as superattendent on other although the consecratioÌ„ of a Bishop or of the chiefe Priest be larger than of a simple Priest or Elder but peraduenture in the pâ—…imitiue Churche they made not such force in the difference of names as they do now And therfore they called a Bishop euery one that had a cure Thus writeth Durandus of the auncient Fathers opinions And will ye compt him or them Aerians too And this also doth your institution in Coâ—…aine Councell confesse N on est tamen putandum VVe must not for all this thinke that he ordeined Bishops another order from Priests for in the Primitiue church Bishops and Priests were all one The which the Epistles of Peter and Paule the Apostles S. Hierome alâ—…o and almost all the auÌ„cient ecclesiastical writers do witnesse And chiefly that place of the first Epistle of S. Peter the â—…ist chapter is euident to declare this For when Peter had said The Elders that are amoÌ„g you I also an Elder with you beseech which am also a witnesse of the passions of Christ and paâ—…taker of the glory to come that shal be reuealed He ioyned vnder it Feede or guide the slocke of Christ that is among you and ouersee it not by compulsion but willingly according to god VVherein it is spokeÌ„ more expresly in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say Superattendent from whence also the name of Bishop is drawne VVherefore Priesthood is esteemed the highest order in the Churche In the meane time no bodie is ignorant that this order is distinguished againe by a certayne order of offices and dignities Thus do your Schoolemen and Diuines witnesse First that in the Substance Order or Character as they terme it there is no difference betweene a Priest and a Bishop Secondly that the difference is but of Accidents and circumstances as degrées of dignitie Iurisdiction Honour c. Thirdly that in the Primitiue Church this difference was not knowne but they were méerely all one and the same Fourthly that this difference was taken vp by custome consent and ordinance of the Uniuersall Church when it once began to be dispersed in al the world Fiftly that it was done for the auayding of factions and sectes that grewe in the time of the ministers equalitie euen anon after the Primitiue Churche and some of them in the Apostles time But quite contrary to this Iudgement of your Diuines are all your Canonistes your Diuines make seuen orders Et in hoc saith Angelus de clauisio concordant coÌ„muniter theologs On this the diuines agree commonly but the Canonists holde that there are nine orders according to nine Hierarchies that is to wite the first notch or psalmist and the order of a Bishop and that the first notch is an order the text is in C. cum contingit ibi do Anto. canonistâ—… de 〈◊〉 quali or similiter quod Episcopatus est ordo quod imprimatur Caracter indiâ—…io meo facit inconuincibiliter tex in C. 1. de ordinatis ab Episcopo c. sic secundum Canonist as erunt nouem ordines And so according to the canonistes there shal be nine orders Great ado your Scoolemen and Canonistes make about this in so much that Aerius heresie will draw verie néere to one of you light on which side it shall But your selfe may holde on both sides M. Stapleton being both a Bachelour in the one and a student in the other As for vs ye do falsly burden vs Our doing is apparant therein acknowleging all due obedience and reuerence to our Bishops But as for your Popishe Clergie there is in déede litle differeÌ„ce in this point or none which barrell is better herring B. or Priest both starke nought or rather neither of them eyther true Priest or B. by S. Paules description Secondly you obiect that Aerius said there was no difference betwene him that fasted and him that did not fast wherein also as in the other your conscience haue ye any knoweth that ye
any pointe derogate from his holynesse â–ª than 〈◊〉 there 〈◊〉 not a greater as our Sauiour dothe 〈◊〉 For to 〈◊〉 myracles addeth no holynesse or 〈◊〉 to a man siâ—…he it serueth aswell for the ill and reprobate as the Lorde wit nesseth haue not we sayd the Hypocrites O Lorde caste out diuels in thy name And therefore sayth Chrisostome to suche as in his 〈◊〉 required myracles and asked why they had not myracles so well 〈◊〉 the olde time Si fidelis eâ—… 〈◊〉 If 〈◊〉 arte faythfull as thou oughtest to be if thou louest Chryst â–ª as he oughte to be loued thou needest no myracles for myracles are giuen to those that are vnbeleeuers It is a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Stap. that your Churche is an vnbeléeâ—…ing Churche since it so vaunteth of myracles and that of such myracles as either are plaine illusions of wicked spiritâ—…s working strongly in the children of vnbeleeâ—…e to deâ—…ayne them still in errour or else are nothing but maâ—…yfest forgeâ—…ies and iugglings suche in very déede as the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the christians then withall But that your 〈◊〉 are not sâ—…aundered there with now I report me to those your Images that could sweate roll their eyes â–ª moue their handes turne rounde aboute sense the Church walke vp and downe the aultare speake wéepe laugh frowne and do many other pretie miraculous knackes Of which 〈◊〉 all the worlde now seeth the marueytous legerdemaine the best of your sâ—…rt are either forced with shame to confesse the abuses or else to â—…est out the matter with scoffes as sir Thomas Mooâ—…in in his booke of pilgrimages and myracles doth But none durst crake of them so impudently as doe you comparing your false myracles to the auncient true miracles calling vs Arians and 〈◊〉 aâ—… though we denyed those when we onely denie yours at the which if not the Deuill himselfe yet his ministers sate if not at saintestombes yet at your Zoolatrous shrines to illude yea to robbe and spoyle the simple people to derke your gorgious shrines and Images but chiefly to enriche your â—…es But as Christ come sayth Martyres non gaudent c. The Martyres reioyce not when they are honoured with that money â–ª for which the poore doe weepe VVhat vertue of iustice is that to rewarde the deade and spoyle the liuing c. what maner of men then be they that spoyle men and make buyldings of 〈◊〉 What woulde Chrysostome haue sayde had he séene with what rapineâ—… your Popishe shrines were decked nothing like the reuereÌ„t tombes of those holy Martyrs which yet they worshipped not nor the Martyrs in theÌ„ what true myracles 〈◊〉 were wrought at them â–ª â—…nd therefore Chrysostome waâ—…th Ne aâ—…endas cinâ—…res of the â—…es bodies nor the imbeâ—… of the flâ—… reliques and all their bones which in time 〈◊〉 coÌ„sumed but open the eyes of thy sayth and see the 〈◊〉 with 〈◊〉 power And in such sort sayth saint Augustine â–ª Honoramus sanè memorias martyrum tanque sanctorum hoâ—… Des. VVe honour in dâ—…ede the memorie of the martyrs â–ª as the holy men of God Not as he sayth afterwarde as the heathen doe that to their Gods buyâ—…de Churches and erect aultars ordeyne Priestes and make sacrifices Nos autem c. But wee sayth he doe not buyâ—…de Churches to our Martyrs as though they were Gods but make memories of them as deade men whose soules do liue with God neyther doe we erect altars there whereon we might sacrifice to Martyrs but we offer Sacrifice to the one God both of the Martyrs and of vs At the which Sacrifice the men of god which in the acknowledging of him haue ouercome the worlde are in their place and order named but not of the Priest that sacrificeth although he sacrifice in the memorie of them bicause he is Gods Priest not theirs But the sacrifice is the bodie of Christ which is not offered to them bicause they are this same bodie Which saying of Saint Augustine as it confoundeth your grosse opinion of this spirituall sacrifice that next ye lay to our charge for he sayth the sacrifice is that bodie of Christ the which they them selues be also that is the mysticall bodie and not his naturall bodie so it sheweth what a difference betweene those olde tombes of true Martyrs and your Saints shrines there is You builded and dedicated Churches to them so did not they Your schooemen say they haue numina and therefore ought to be worshipped so did not they You erected altars to them so did not they You sacrificed to theÌ„ so did not they You ordeyned Priestes vnto them and besides Priestes you instituted Monkes Nunnes Friers and Chanons to them so did not they You worshipped them with diuine honour so did not they and yet ye call vs by the name of those Heretikes that reiected theyr Martyrs miracles and memories bicause we reiect your illusions and Idolatries Now as you thus meruelously slaunder vs so are yée eyther deceyued your selfe or would deceyue others vnder Saint Ambrose name where as the booke ye cite whiche also Alfonsus standeth much vpon is none of Ambrose his workes but some fayned forgers in his name as Erasmus very well doth proue If ye will know the very minde of S. Amb. turne to his commentarie on the first to the Rom. where he saith quanta agritudo c. VVhat a great griefe what a great folly is it for those to call themselues wise men to their owne damnation among whom the deade can do more than the liuing and the deade are of better power than those that are aliue These are Ambrose his owne wordes making flatly agaynst you But whosoeuer those Sermons be that ye quote they touch not vs as is declared We yelde to the olde Martyrs so much as these fathers require We only denie to yours that you require and woulde extort to enriche your selues and delude the people neyther sparing to belie vs nor the fathers and face vs out with false cardes in their names But letting go your forgeries of the fathers what say ye once againe to Frier Ferus herein Uulgus hominum c. The common people sayth hée esteemeth Saintes by myracles and counteth him the greater that hath done more myracles but they erre manifestly that so iudge myracles are in deede to vse Saint Paules wordes the operation of great workes the gift of the holy ghost But hereon they are not onely esteemed Saints else the blessed virgin Iohn Baptist were of all saints the least that are read to haue wrought no myracle VVe may not therefore esteeme Saintes hereupon Moreouer oftentimes myracles are giuen to the euill for many shall say in that day Lorde Lorde haue wee not cast out Deuilles in thy name and I shall say to them I haue not knowne you c. And thus will Christe say of your myracles master Stapleton and therefore let him be a Bogomile with you also
no quoth he that will I neuer doe I had rather alway begge my breade And so the matter was dasht The yong man retourning came by a chapell where was the picture of the blessed Virgin holding hir childe in hir armes and he began to inuocate hir with all his heart and by the merites of hir repented earnestly calling instantly vpon the Virgin Marie for he durst not call vppon the highest whom he had denied VVith that he hearde the mother speake to hir sonne in hir armes saying my most sweete Sonne be mercifull to this man To whom hir Sonne would not speake one worde but writhed his face from hir And when againe she besought hir Sonne for him he turned his backe to his mother and said he hath renied me what shall I doe to him when she saw this she set downe the childe on the altare and fell at his feet saying I beseech thee sonne that for me thou wilt forgiue him and streight the infant lift vp his mother and sayde O mother I coulde neuer denie thee any thing beholde for thy sake I forgiue him all Thus ye made the mother farre more mercyfull and louing than Christe and that forgiuenesse of sinnes is in hir name and for hir sake And made the people by these tales beléeue that it was a more heynous offence to denye the blessed Uirgin than it was to renounce oure Sauioure Christe The same authour telleth yet a more fonde and wicked tale How S. Dominike on a night saw Christe standing in the ayre shaking in his hand three speares against the world and his mother ranne hastily againste him and demaunded him what he would doe and he sayd to hir All the worlde is full of vices of pride of luxurie and of auarice and therfore I will destroye them with these three speares then the blessed virgin fell downe at his feete ▪ and sayd Deare sonne haue pitie and tarrie thy iustice by thy mercie And Iesus Christ sayd to hir Seest thou not howe many vvrongs and iniuries they haue done to mee And she answered Son attemper thy wrathe and tarie a little I haue a true seruaunt and a noble fighter against the vices he shal runne ouer all and vanquishe the worlde and subdue them vnder thy seignorie and I shall giue him an other seruaunt into his helpe that shall fighte as hee dothe And oure Lorde her sonne sayde I am appeased and receyue thy prayer But I woulde see vvhome thou wilte sende in so greate offence And so the tale telleth howe she fette and presented vnto him Saincte Dominicke and S. Frauncis and howe Christe praysed them And thus once the worlde was saued by hir and hir two champions On the other syde of the leafe as a confirmation to this is declared howe an other tyme a deuout Ladies chaplein called sir William dyd see Christe sitte in his throne and on his right hand an angell standing with a trumpet whom Christe with a cleere voyce in the hearyng of all the armie of heauen bad blowe And when he had blovven the blast was so mightie that all the worlde shooke as it had bene a leafe on a tree to whome Christe sayde the seconde tyme Blovve and he blevve as before But the Virgin Mary mother of mercie knovvyng that yf he blevve agayne all the vvorlde vvere ended the other Sainctes being all husht shee starte vp and fell at hir Sonnes feete and besoughte him vvith muche adoe to deferre his sentence and spare the worlde To vvhome Christe aunsvvered Mother all the vvorlde is sette on wickednesse and doe so prouoke me vvith their sinnes that neither I ought to suspende my sentence nor spare man Sith not only the laitie but the clergie also yea the Monkes haue vtterly corrupted theyr vvayes and offende me from day to daye And then sayde his mother My deare son spare them though not for those wicked ones yet at the least for my frends sakes and so Christ vvas pleased once againe An other tyme the matter wente so harde that the Uirgin Maries image fell a sweating so fast in the Church that all the people maruelled And the cause was this The sonne of Marie had euen stretched oute his arme to strike the vvorld and if his mother had not run the quicklier and stayed his arme the vvorlde had bene destroyed ere novve This is the intercession that youre Church ascribeth to hir M. Stapleton makyng hir a greate deale more prone to mercie than Christ the fountain of mercie and mercie it selfe by these youre wicked and blasphemous fables But what said I ▪ I should haue said by these your holy histories and deuoute sermons But sée withall what true doctrine ye teache that the sainctes do pray for the deferring of the kingdome of God where Christe teacheth vs to pray that he would vouchsafe to hasten his kingdom saying Let thy kingdome come And willeth the godlie to lift vp their heads when they shall heare of the signes thereof and sayth that vnlesse God should shorten those dayes no fleshe should be saued and he will cut them off for the electes sake And the Martirs slaine for the worde of God doe long still for his cōming and crie How long O Lord which art holie and true wilt thou not iudge the worlde and reuenge oure bloud of those that dwell in the earth And there were giuen to them white garmentes and they were bidde rest a whyle till the number of theyr felow seruants and brethren were fulfilled that should be slayne likewise And the spirite and the spouse sayth come and he that heareth let him say Come c. And Christe sayeth Yea I come quickly Amen Yea Lorde Iesu come quickly sayth S. Iohn And your Church saith As an harlot that is afrayde of the husbands comming come not And ye tell vs that the blessed Uirgin hath nowe thrée tymes stayed backe his arme and wil not lette him come You haue hitherto ascribed verie muche and much more than ought to be ascribed to a creature but do ye go no further ye pretende that the death of Christ is auaylable but no further than the blessed virgin doth obtain it at his hād by hir mercie What a tale is that ye tel vs euen where as ye mention the bloud of Christe howe a certains noughtie religious man vsing notwithstāding to say an hundreth Aue Maries euery day the deuils brought him béeing dead in his sinnes before Christ to be iudged Christ pronounced him to be eternally condemned With that came the blessed virgin and offred the papers wherein the Aue Maries wer written desiring Christ to go to iudgemēt once again The deuils seeing that brought all the bookes of his sinnes and when the balance was peysed his sinnes did ouerwey the Auies which séeing the virgin besought Christ saying Thou art my sonne the bloud that thou hast thou hast of me I pray thee giue me one droppe thereof
in heauen things that are in earth things visible things inuisible whether they be Maiestie or Lordship either rule or power al things are created by him and in him be is before all things and in him all things haue their being and he is the head of the bodie that is to wit of the congregation he is the beginning and first begotten that in all thinges he might haue the preheminence for it pleased the father that in him all fulnesse should dwell and by him to reconcile all things to him selfe and to set at peace by him through the bloud of his Crosse both things in heauen and things in earth Here is no mencion at all of hir but all of him master Stapleton for whome all things were made But euen these properties of Christ this blasphemous doctour applieth to hir and sayth your Church doth so For a little before he sayth Sed hoc loco c. But in this place is to be asked whether the blessed virgin were brought forth before all creatures For of hir sayth the Church that saying Eccle. 24. Ab initio ante secula creata sum From the beginning and before the worlde was I made and againe in the Epistle of this solemnitie the Virgine is brought in saying that sentence Prou. 8. The Lord hath possessed me from the beginning of his wayes before he made any thing euen from the beginning from euerlasting I was ordeyned and from of olde before the earth was made as yet the depthes were not and I was alreadie begotten as yet the fountaynes flowed not with water nor as yet the mountaynes in their great compasse were setled before all the hilles was I begotten VVhich wordes doe seeme so to sounde that she was brought forth before the bringing forth of any other thing Who is he that knoweth not that these wordes are spoken of the eternall sonne of God begotten before all ages and is euen one wyth that S. Iohn sayth In the beginning was the worde and yet bicause it is spoken in the feminine gender vnder the name of the eternall wisedome of God he most ignoranâ—…ly and Idolatrously transferreth it to the virgin Marie Neyther he alone but he sayth your Church doth so so that all your whole Church is a blasphentous Church And thus ye ascribe the promise of the blessed seede to the blessed virgine saying not it but shee shall tread downe the serpents heade So where Dauid sayth Non est qui se abscondat à â—…alore 〈◊〉 None can hide him from his heate ye say none can hide him from hir heate Likewise where the wisedome of God sayth In the welbeloued Citie gaue he me rest in Hierusalem was my power Iacobus de Udragine applieth it to hir saying Primo pater c. First the father hath made hir mightie to helpe Eccle. 24. in Hierusalem was my power for she is made so mightie that she can help vs in life in death and after death c. Againe where Christe sayth I am exalted like a Palme tree aboute the bankes and as a rose Palme in Hierico as a fayre Oliue tree in a pleasant fielde that ascribeth he to hir saying Sunt enim quidam c. There are some Saints who when they are prayed vnto follow the information of their conscience and therefore often tymes they will not pray to God for vs bicause they haue a conscience that they are not worthie to be heard Other Saintes there are that when they are prayed vnto they follow the streightnesse of Gods righteousnesse And therefore if they be desired and knowe that this is not fitte for Gods iustice they dare not aske but the blessed Virgin neither looketh to conscience nor to iustice but to mercie As who should say let them keepe their consciences to themselues that lust and let them that will loke to Gods iustice I will alwayes hold me to mercie and for this so excellent Modestie shee sayth of hir selfe Eccle. 24. I am as a fayre Oliue in the fieldes Yea you say shée hath such excéeding and excelling mercie that not onely it passeth all the Saints but that illud quod dicitur Eccl. 18. de Domino potest dici etiaÌ„ de Domina c. That the which is spoken Eccle. 18. of the Lorde may be spoken of the Ladie The mercie of a man is towarde his neighbour but the mercie of the Lorde is ouer all flesh Thus ye robbe God of his glory to adourne hir attributing all to hir And say that the father hath written in hir his power where Christ sayth contrarie all povver is giuen me of my father in heauen and earth c. that the sonne hath vvritten in hir his vvisedome that the holy ghost hath vvritten in hir his goodnesse and mercie Againe the father hath made hir his Treasorer vvhereby shee hath conquered the Deuill and povvreth into cur mindes diuine knovvledge The sonne hath made hir his Chamberlayne The holy ghost hath made hir his Cellerer The vvhole Trinitie hath made hir Almosiner of heauen Shee is Chauncellour to the holy ghost shee is Porter of Paradise Ipsa nanque est ostium c. For shee is the doore by the vvhich vve enter into Paradise vvhich by Eue vvas shutte and by hir is opened Ipsa enim est quae nos suis meritis in atrium principis introducit For it is shee that by hir merits bringeth vs into the porch of the Prince VVhervpoÌ„ Ioh. 18 it is sayde A Damsell that was the doore keeper the blessed virgine calleth hirselfe an handemayde or Damsell let in Peter into the Princes porche Ipsa nanque virgo For euen the virgin is the vvindovv vvherby God beholdeth vs vvith the eie of mercie Uirgo autem Maria. The Virgin Marie is the throne of mercy grace and glorie she is the Sunne to the iust the Moone to the Saints the faithful vvitnesse to sinners the aduocate of mankinde the drop that softneth all hardnesse There vvere three things that once vvere hard God that receyued none to mercie Death that svvalovved vp all to hell the Deuill that enraged vvith enmitie But the Virgin Marie so mollified God that he receiued all men to mercie She so trodde death vnder foote that novve he can not take avvay the Saints Shee ouercame the Deuill that he can novve â–ª deceyue none but him that lust to be deceyued that novv shee may say I forsake you not but as a drop I abyde vvith you bicause my odour abydeth vvith you vvherevvith I haue mollifyed God I haue troden dovvne death I haue ouercome the Deuill This is one droppe of hir grace master Stap. but what can ye ascribe more to al the droppes of the bloud of christ To conclude ye make hir all in all Shee â—…lenseth vs from our sinnes â–ª shee lightneth vs from ignorance she strengthneth vs from our infirmities Et per ipsam virg c. and by the blessed
supreme charge ouersight and gouernment to sée that the Priest do not abuse this so excellent and spiritual ministerie but exercise rightly the same according to Gods worde Who so doing the Prince so well as any other Christian obeyeth his preaching ministerie submitteth his head as Chrysosâ—…ome saith vnder the ministers handes as to Gods messenger steward and dispenser of his heauenly mysteries But if the Priest be not such an one as Chrysostome describeth if he do not denounce Gods promises threaâ—…es nor his worde at all but as Christ saith of the naughtie seruant striketh his fellow seruants and subtracâ—…eth their spirituall foode of Gods worde from them would poyson theÌ„ with such erroniouse foode as he would giue them besides and contrarie to the worde of God if he will not be centent with his owne boundes but will vsurpe also the dignitie that is not due vnto him but belongeth to the Prince shall the Prince suffer this at his handes him selfe to be spoyled of his authoritie and royall estate and his subiectes pilled of their goods yea both he and al his subiects by such a false vsurper tirant Priest to be robbed and spoiled of their soules foode saluation Here hath the Prince authoritie to suppresse such wicked Balamites such counterfaites such Antichrists what soeuer they be and to place in their places true and godly ministers such as Chrysostome here speakes of FroÌ„ which kinde of ministerie your Pope M. St who is your great high Priest all the inferiour rable of Priests that depende on him are so farre different that Chrysostoms senteÌ„ce not only maketh nothing for you but is cleane against you For first take your owne words that you cite out of Chrysostome lay them to your Pope Prelates and sée how they agrée togither This king saith Chrysâ—…stome of the minister or Priest is not knowne by visible things neither hath his estimatioÌ„ for preciouse stones he glistereth with all or for his gay golden ghstering apparell Contrarywise your Pope and his prelates to get the more estimation thereby of the people are not onely knowen by visible things but set out them selues and all their ceremonies to the vttermost in gay golden glistering apparell with most gorgeous ouches of siluer of golde of pearles and precious stones Againe this Prieste saith to the King I haue not vsurped thy purple contrarywise the Pope hath vsurped Emperours purple the Emperours Diademe the Emperours throne the Emperours Empire and all Againe ye tell vs out of Chrysostome that the bodies are committed to the King the soules to the Priest the King pardoneth the faultes of the bodie the Priest pardoneth the faultes of the soule the King forceth the Priest exhorteth the one by necessitie the other by giuing counsell the one hath visible armour the other spirituall he warreth against the barbarous I warre against the Diuell Contrarywise the Pope warreth against Christ and with the Diuell as his generall vicar and Licuetenant and taketh not onely vppon him the Emperours parte by warring against the barbarous Turkes and Saracens but also the Diuels parte by warring against the Saincts truth of God and that with more horrible treasons murders and villanies than euer was practised among the barbarous And entermedleth with faultes of the bodie as whoredome and fornication not onely bodily to punish them but also beastly for filthie lucre to maintaine them and condemneth in Gods ministers godly and honorable wedlocke which besides the other is a manifest argument that he is a Priest of no such kinde as Chrysostome here coÌ„mendeth For had you M. St. looked better euen in the same Homelie but the leafe before ye should haue seene what a notable commendation he maketh of the mariage of Priestes vppon the prophetes wordes Vidi dominum c. I saw the Lorde sitting in an high I hrone c. Quis hac loquitur c. VVho saith he spake these thinges Esay that beholdet of the celestiall Scraphins which had to deale with mariage and yet extinguished not grace You haue harkened to the Prophet and you haue heard the Prophet this day Go thou out and lasuph thy sonne neyther must we ouerpasse these thinges Go thou out and thy sonne Yea had the Prophet a sonne if he had a sonne he had a wife also that thou mayst vnderstande that mariages are not euill but whooredome is euill But so often as we talke with any of the vulgare people saying why liuest thou not well wherefore expressest thou not perfect manners how can I say they except I should go from my wife except I should bid my children farewell except I should bidde my businesse adieu VVherfore canst thou not doth matrimonie hinder thee a wife is giuen thee for an helper not to lay a snare for thee Had not the Prophet a wife neither did wedlocke hinder the grace of the spirite and yet he kepte companie togither with his wife and was a Prophet neuerthelesse Had not Moses a wife and yet he brake the rocke he changed the ayre he talked with God he stayde the diuine wrathe Had not Abraham a wife and yet he was made a father of Nations and of the Churche for he got his sonne Isaac and he was to him a matter of notable affayres Did he not offer his Sonne the fruit of his mariage was he not a father and withall a louer of God might not he see him selfe a sacrificer to be made of his owne bowels a sacrificer I say and a father withall nature to be ouercome godlinesse to ouercome his bowels to be troden downe his godly deedes to surmount the father to be cast downe and the louer of God to be crowned hast thou not seene the whole maÌ„ both a louer of his son and of God was matrimonie here an hindraÌ„ce but what saist thou to the mother of the Machabees Was she not a wife added she not seuen sonnes to the felowship of the saincts did she not see them crowned with martyrdom â–ª did she not stand by as a looker vppon and not â—…aint in hir minde stoode she not by exhorting euery one of them and being the mother of the martyrs suffred hâ—… selfe seuen martirdoms for while they were tormented she receyued the stroke Neither yet without affections beheld she â—…he things that were done She was the mother and the violence done to nature declared hir proper vertue But she was not ouercome c. But what say we to Peter the maine piller of the Church that vehemeÌ„t louer of Christ he that in speach was vnlearned conquerour of RhethoritiaÌ„s he that was vnskilfull stopped the philosophers mouthes he that dissolued the Greeke wisdome no otherwise thaÌ„ the webbe of spiders he that trauailed through the world cast the net into the sea and fished the world but what saith the Gospell Iesus entred vnto Peters wiues mother being sicke of a feuer VVhere a wiues mother is there is a wife and
vpon thē selues to whō they properly appertayne who in deede denie both Chryst the head and Christ the body that is his catholike Church And that as the Donatistes secte was condemned by Constantine Honorius and other Emperours the highe kings of Christendome So haue they withall condemned you master Stapl. that followe the Donatistes and so may and ought all christian Princes the Emperour nowe whose highe kingdomes besides a bare name in any matter of Christianitie ye make nothing to pull downe suche vsurpers of their highe kingdomes and set vp true and godly ministers in their places to whome they might and ought to submitte their heades vnder their spirituall ministerie To the whiche sorte as is shewed playnely out of Chrisostome your Popishe Priesthoode is cleane contrarie And therefore to returne your wordes vpon your selfe Ye are they that cutte in sunder the vnitie and peace of Christes Churche and rebell agaynst the promises of his Gospell Which Gospell ye can not abyde should come to light and therefore the highe kinges of Christendome should remoue and condemne you Whiche is a better argumente than yours M. Stap. and is sufficient to inferre the supremacie of these highe Kings and Princes The. 23. Diuision THe Bishop in his diuision prosecuting still the wordes of S. Paule Rom. 13. proueth further out of Chrysostome and Eusebius that as the Prince is Gods minister so this ministerie consisteth not onely in ciuill and temporall but also in the well ordering of the Church matters and their diligent rule and care therein The effecte of his argument is this The Prince as Chrysostome sayth prepareth the mindes of many to be made more appliable to the doctrine of the worde and is the great lighte and true preacher and setter foorth of true godlynesse as Eusebius sayth Ergo His ministerie consisteth as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill causes The antecedent Eusebius proueth by the example of Constantine that his ministerie stretched to the setting foorth of godlynesse to al countreyes and that he preached God and not onely ciuil lawes by his Imperiall decrees and Proclamations And this he confirmeth by Constantines own confession that he taughte by his ministerie the religion and lawe of God that therby he caused the encrease of the true fayth And by the same put away and euerthrewe all the euils that pressed the worlde But the world in Constantines time was pressed with diuers schismes errours heresies false religions and many ecclesiasticall abuses and superstitions besides the heathen Idolatrie Ergo His ministerie stretched not onely ouer temporall causes but also ecclesiasticall Yea he counteth this his best ministerie Ergo. It belongeth to the Prince as well if not more than the other And so the Bishops argument followeth héerevpon that the Apostles sentence the Prince is Gods minister argueth the Princes charge and gouernement in all maner causes ecclesiasticall so well as temporall These proues of the Byshop béeing so euident M. Stap. answereth they are all insufficient saying I see ye not master Horne come as yet neere the matter I answere who is so blinde as he that seeth and will not see Were ye not of the number of those of whome Chryst sayth I came to iudgemēt into this worlde that those that see not shoulde see and those that see shoulde be made blind Ye might then both clearely see that he both cōmeth neere the matter and satisfieth it at large Excepte ye be as blinde of the matter also as ye pretende to be of these the Byshops proufes But if ye woulde haue followed your owne counsell euer to haue set before your eyes the state of the question in issue betwéene them ye shoulde well by this time haue seene that the Byshop digressed nothing frō it And that your selfe of self will or malice will not looke aright theron but cleane awrie stil starting aside and swaruing frō the marke for the nonce to picke occasions wheron to wrangle For wherfore I pray you do ye not see that the Bishop commeth not neere the matter I see not say you that Constantine changed religion plucked downe Altares deposed Byshops c. But that he was diligent in defending the olde and former faythe of the Christians Whatsoeuer you see or see not in Constantine master Stapl. all the world may see false dealing in you and how lyke an vnnaturall subiecte to your naturall Prince ye be As thoughe ye sawe that the Quéenes highnesse had changed religion excepte ye meane false religion and that ye might haue seene in Constantine also He changed the heathen religion of the Paynims and abolished it with all their Altares Byshops Priestes and temples and set foorth the true religion of Iesus Christe He chaunged likewise and abolished suche superstitions Idolatries schismes errours and heresies as troubled the Churche of Christe in his time Which you might easily haue seene in Constantines owne wordes by the Byshop cited That he put away and ouerthre we all the euils that pressed the worlde If you say ye can not yet see that he ment all spirituall and ecclesiasticall euils so well as temporall put on a payre of spectacles master Stapl that are not dymmed with affection and then shall ye see that of suche kinde as the good thinges were whiche he set foorth of suche kinde were the contrarie euils that he put away and ouerthrew but the good things that he set foorthe were true godlynesse decrees of God the religion of the moste holy law the most blessed fayth c. All whiche are matters moste spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo all the euils that he abolished were so well spirituall and ecclesiasticall as ciuill and temporall matters If ye say yet ye see nothing but that he was diligent in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians True in deede neither can ye see any other thing in the Quéenes Maiestie nor any authoritie is giuen héereby to Princes than as Constantine was to bee diligente in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians founded by Christ and taught by his Apostles And if any other since that time haue brought in any things besides that old and former fayth to remoue the same and reduce vs to the olde and former fayth of the Christians For as Tertullian sayth That is of the Lorde and that is truthe that was before deliuered but that which afterward was thrust in is bothe strange and false And so sayth Constantine I bothe called agayne mankind taught by my ministerie to the religion of the most holy lawe and also caused the moste blessed fayth should encrease grow vnder a better gouernor Nowe séeing that many poynts of the Popish fayth and doctrine haue cropen in since that time and manie of later yeres besides and contrarie to the olde and former fayth of the Cheistians taught by Christ and left vs written by the finger of the holy ghost sealed and confirmed by so many myracles to endure to the
base things of the worlde thatis by the pouertie of the Apostles and the tormentes of the Martyrs he ouercame the mightie things the same God within a while after did so ioin togither his heauenly kingdome with the earthly kingdome that there also he might shewe no lesse both power and mercie while some kings voluntarily made themselues subiect to the pore Ministers of Christ But other refusing at the first to be made subiects vnto theÌ„ yet by the spirituall power of theÌ„ were either afterwarde conuerted to repentance or else vvere hurled downe from the high degree of the Empire they possessed that euery waye it should be true that God reuealed to Daniel In the dayes of those kingdomes the God of heauen shall rayse vp a kingdome which shall neuer be destroyed his kingdome shall not be giuen to an other people but it shall frush and consume al kingdomes and it shall stande for euer This truely is the kingdome of heauen or the power of the Church of God. It is euen so M. Sand â–ª and therefore not suche a worldly kingdome as your Pope vsurpeth you proule for him to mainteine but the heauenly kingdome of Christe and the power of God which is his Gospell shall frush and consume your kingdome with the other Nay say you they did indéed once iarre but now they agrée the heauenly and the earthly kingdome are conioyned togither Agréement is a good hearing M. Sand â–ª but what meane you by this coniunctioÌ„â—… that the one is become the other and not still distinguished from it or that your Pope may be king and his Byshoppes Princes of bothe nay M. sand you finde not that agréement and coniunction For Christ hath put such a barre betwene them that his spiritual Ministers can not haue earthly kingdomes nor that earthly kings shoulde in the estate of their earthly kingdomes becoÌ„me subiecte in such wise to his spirituall Ministers otherwise than to yelde their obedience to their spirituall ministerie representing the power mercie of God vnto them But not to resigne their crownes vnto them not to be troden vnder their feete not to be deposed of them and driuen out of their earthly kingdomes The spirituall kingdome of Christ it selfe much lesse the spirituall ministers of that kingdome dealeth not with earthly kings in such a fashion which is not to agrée or ioyne wyth them but to conspice against them You tel vs of some kings that haue voluntarily yeelded theÌ„ selues subiectes some that were compelled and driuen out of their kingdomes but was this done as you saye by the pouertie of the Apostles and the tormentes of the Martyrs True it is that by these base things God ouercame the mightie things of the world But trow you that they by their pouertie deposed kings by their suffering tormeÌ„ts draue theÌ„ out of their realme that were a harde matter But name the Apostle name the martyr name the king name the kingdome you can No you can not â–ª But you shal finde the centrarie for if they were in pouertie then were they not rycher than kings if they suffered tormentes theÌ„ they put not meÌ„ to tormeÌ„ts they were tormeÌ„ted not tormeÌ„ters sufferers not doers of theÌ„ Neither suffered they as malefactors for coÌ„spiring against kings for going about to haue deposed kings froÌ„ their kingdomes Are you not ashamed your Popes being rycher thaÌ„ kings crueller than tirante to tel how God ouercame the mighte of the worlde and increased his spirituall kingdome this was Gods doing not mans and by cleane contrarie meanes to your doings and to cleane contrarie purposes not to storish in an earthly kingdome or to dispossesse kings as al your drifte doth tende But you haue examples hereof howe you broughte kings to this thraldome but for shame ye durst not name theÌ„ the stories were so tragical But now this being coÌ„trarie to Christes prohibition he propouÌ„neth an obiection himselfe in our behalfe answereth it Thou vvilt say do therefore By â–ª hoppes and Pastors of the shepe of Christ rule temporal kingdomes properly indeed and of it selfe in no vvise But thus do Byshops rule temporal kingdomes if so be such kingdomes do submit themselues to the Christian faith For euen in this that Christian kings and nations do desire the faith Sacraments of Christ they promise heerein that they vvill neither gouerne nor obey any earthly gouernment further than the Christian faith and religion may suffer If therefore either the gouernement of the king or the peoples obedience begin to svvarue othervvayes either they may be deposed from their gouernment or most iustly excluded from the povver of choosing a king by the force of the couert or expressed couenaÌ„t which at the beginning they made vvith the Church of Christe For vvhat soeuer is so much of the nature of the thing that is done that if by chaunce mention vvas made thereof at the beginning it can not othervvise agree than by that one vvaye vvhich although it were not expressed betvvene the bargain makers yet is it holden for expressed bicause it was necessarily contained in the nature of that that was done For ensample A man saith to a vvoman I take thee to my vvise she againe making answere I take thee to my husbande But that they shall liue togither euen till death although this expresly is not vttered in the couenant notwithstanding it is so contained in the nature of the thing that it is necessarily vnder stood After the same maner it is when either the king or any priuat man is made a member of the church by faith baptisme For euen in that that he renounceth the worlde the pomps thereof verily he promiseth that he will neuer abuse the power of his earthly kingdome againste the faithe and church of christ And if so be he shall do it he wil not refuse but that he may be depriued of the right of his kingdome For I aske if this namely should come in question Softe M. Sand â–ª we must interrupt you or els we caÌ„not so coÌ„ueniently answere you To your question anon now to your argument and your 〈◊〉 thereâ—…n The obrection you made was this whether Bishops and Pastors of the sheepe of Christ may rule temporall kingdomes You answere properly and of it selfe in no wise But as those kingdomes do subiect them selues to the Christian sayth This is a proper elusion M. Saunders thinke you to escape thus is it all one to subiecte their kingdomes toâ—…e Christian fayth and to subiect their kingdomes to the Bishops Good 〈◊〉 it is that the fayth should beare the â—…héefe rule But the obiection was whether the Bishops should or no and therfore this â—…inction serueth not For Christ simply without this or y respect debarâ—…eth al his spi ritual ministers froÌ„ ruling of teÌ„poral kingdomes Who knoweth not that properly and of their owne nature temporall kingdomes should not be ruled of spirituall pastors but
they may be â—…conciled and continue together â—…ut you 〈◊〉 in this case of swaruing from the 〈◊〉 the subiect and the Prince may not continue together â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the man and the womaÌ„ are by their contract in mariage knit inseparably togither especially as the Papists maâ—…e the contract that it is neuer vndone for any vice no not for whordome although they graunt there may be in nâ—…ne but 〈◊〉 déede a separation so the Prince and the â—…ubiect being contracted togither in the polycie of a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the one 〈◊〉 faithfull gouernement the 〈◊〉 promising faithfull obedience notwithstanding all their vices that fall out afterwards betwene them may not be â—…ieane parted a sunder the Prince from his authoritio the suâ—…iect from his obediencâ—… but till their liues endes most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 together â–ª and as the priest â—…an not 〈◊〉 but by your owne 〈◊〉 makes 〈◊〉 againste you But now â—…ay â—…n and moue your question M. Saunders I aske say you if this by name should come in questioÌ„ whether this shoulde not necessarily be aunswered to that King which would become a Christian Let it be that King Lucius come to Blessed Eleutherius the Pope yea or else king Clodoueus to Blessed Remigius and desire them selues to be admitted into the societie of the Christian people But let vs suppose that the Blessed Eleutherius or Remigius answere to eyther of them we are glad most deere Sonne that thou desirest to be made a Citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certaintie that the case is not â—…ke in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde For in the Church thou must liue so that thou make captiue thy vnderstanding to the obedience of â—…aith But thou how greater thou arte in the world maist so much the more hurt the Churche of God â—…f thou shalt abuse the right of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike faithe No otherwise therfore maist thou haue entrie into the Church than if thou shalte promise that thou wilt persist in that saâ—…h and defende that Church with all thy force which being receiued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this daye and dispersed throughe oute all the world But if it shall chance thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalt go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to lead a priuate life here if the King Lucius make answere I am ready to acknowledge the ChristiaÌ„ faith but I neither promise that I will defend with my sword the Catholike faith neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the righte of my kingdome Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and deliuer the sacrament of thanksgiuing can he therfore be a member of Christ that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him Your example and your question hang not together M. Saunders to your last question I answere that he can not be a member of Christe that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him But what is this question to your former question of submitting himselfe to the Byshop to depose him there is greater difference betwixte Christs Scepter and the Bishops Crosier than betwéene the Kings Crowne and the Bishops Miter But to come to your examples which drawe somewhat nerer to your purpose First trow you that these two examples of King Lucius and Clodoueâ—… will answere al thâ—…se and serue for all Kings I suppose they will not â–ª For these kings receiued Baptisme being of lawfull yeares and â—…ight haue made a voluntarie graunt to all that you prâ—…suppose your Bishops would haue demauÌ„â—…ed of theÌ„ so might haue snarled themselues in their briers and bondage But yeutaÌ„ not presuppose the like of infants especially of those infantes whose parents were Christâ—… Princes before who are baptized long before they are kings And althoughe they might order y child as ill as they ordered y other that â—…o rawly came to ChristeÌ„dome yet would not the parentes being alreadâ—…e Christened bring their Children in such bondage Neither could they demand it of a childe which was not a king nor perchaunce borne to a kingdome but gat it afterwarde by prowesse Secondly these be but vaine presupposals false For although Clodouenâ—… was Baptized by Remigius yet was not Lucius baptized by Eleutherius but either by the two preachers which Eleutherius sent or as it rather appéereth by the content of Eleutherius letters King Lucius was himselfe a Christian before therfore Eleutherius sent them not as Legates nor sent any such conditions by them nor any lawes or ceremonies of the Church of Rome but referreth y King to the word of God and was so farre from taking vpon him to be gods Uiâ—…ar ouer the King his kingdome that in plain words be yeldeth that authoritie title to King Lucius And as for Clodoueus though he call Remigius his patrone author of the discipline and ReligioÌ„ bicause he baptized him in structed him therin yet as for any such couenant or condition not to admit him to the faith of Christ except he woulde sweare before hand that if he would not defend the Bishops their faith he shoulde forsake his kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life Remigius conditioned no such thing no more than Elentherins before had done to Lucius For when Clodoneus being an infidel and yet hauing a Christian wise which made him somâ—…hat more enclinable being in battaile against the Almaines making his vowe to Christ in his distresse to receiue the ChristiaÌ„ faith if he should get the victorie which being obtained and he returned home with triumph willing to receiue the faith of Christ his wise made hast to Remigius the Bishop of Remes Lxhorting him saith â—…onius forthwith to come to the Court that while he wauered yet in suspence he would open to him the way of truth that leadeth to God for she said she feared least his minde puffed vp with prosperitie while he knoweth not the giuer of these things he should contemne him For things that fall oute as we would haue them fall out of our minde likewise in continuance of ryme more easilie than those things that fall out otherwise than we would The Bishop hasteneth to obey the admonishing of the Religious woman He presenteth himself to the sight of the King that nowe a prettie while had aboade his coÌ„ming The faith is declared by the Bishop the meanes of beleuing is taught The King also acknowledging the faith deuoutly promiseth that he wâ—…l serue one god As for the peeres of his Realme armie he will proue his opinion which what it is of this matter he affirmeth that so muche more denoutly they wold submit their neckes to Christ how much more they should see theÌ„selues to be prouoked with
intreaties rather thaÌ„ with terrors The condition pleaseth a publike calling forth of the people is made by the Kings coÌ„maundement to whom the King maketh an oratioÌ„ persuadeth the people to receiue the faith of Christ moueth them to submit their neckes to Christ the priest reioyceth that the King not yet baptized is becoÌ„e an Apostle of his owne natioÌ„ so the King is baptised What condition is here made by the Bishoppe vnto the King of giuing ouer his realme deposing himselfe which might haue done more hart thaÌ„ good In what couâ—…nant did the people here binde themselues to looâ—…e the libertiâ—… of chosing their King or promise to forsake their King if their King forsake the faith here was no such bondage â—…red â—…ther to the King by the Bishop and the King thought good to offer none such to the people but with gentle persuasions to allâ—…re them So that these presupposals of these Bishops speaches vnto these Princes are vtterly false and forged onely to driue in the readers heads a surmise of seme suche conditionall admission to the Christian faith in these elde Princes dayes whiche was nothing so nor so And yet by these colourable presupposals he enforceth his matter with a question aying Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the sacrament of Baptisme and giue the sacrament of thanksgiuing Why M. SauÌ„ders here was no such condition moued yet Remigius gaue Clodoneus the sacrament of Baptisme â–ª In deede the sacrament of that kâ—…giuing he gaue not then vnto hym neyther was it necessarie till he were instructed in the mysterie of it And therefore this is as fondly added in this case to the Sacrament of Baptisme as your case of Baptisme is craftily and malicioâ—…sly deuised to bring Princes in bondage vnto Bishoppes But this King thoughe he and his people submitted their neckes to Christe yet did he not thus submit himselfe and his people to the Bishoppe The long promiseth to 〈◊〉 one God but not to 〈◊〉 eyther the Bishop of Remes or the Bishop of Rome â–ª These knackes and conditions of bondage for Princes to promise and â—…weare obedience to the Pope and to his Bishops yea to sweare to depose themselues and become pâ—…uate men if they forscke this consâ—…rained obedience is of later times as the Popes power and tirannie hath growne and hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Christian Princes great huâ—…lie but lâ—…s in manye Christian kingdomes But yet it neuer went thus for as it now should do â–ª if M. Saunders might haue hie minde for it was neuer vrged in their Christâ—…dome before This pasieth the slauerie of the Spanish InquisitioÌ„ that no Prince nor people shuld be christened except they swere to these exceptioÌ„s In the olde time when the Prophetes anoynted kinges they tolde them of the blessings of God to come vpon them and their posteritie to sitte in their seate after them and that God woulde buylde them an house to continue if they serued him and walked faythfully in his wayes And if they should do the contrarie howe God woulde rende the kingdome from them and giue it to another Of suche promises and threates that the Prophetes tolde the kinges we reade and of the promises that the kinges made agayne to God we reade but that any Prophet compounded with the king before that he shoulde renounce his kingdome or that any king tooke either their circumcision or their kingdome on suche condition or that the king reuolting from his promise either voluntarily or by compulsion deposed him selfe or was deposed of the Bishop Priest or Prophet of God these thinges yâ—… can not shewe vs but these thinges ye shoulde shewe vs if ye will make good your sayings and directly proue your purpose You tell vs heere a tale of a tubbe in the name of these kinges Bishops that they neuer dyd nor I thinke dyd euer thinke of any such deuises But go too let vs nowe presuppose with M. Saunders euen as he imagineth A King would be baptised The Bishop sayth VVe are glad most deare sonne that thou desirest to be made a citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certayntie that the case is not like in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde for in the Churche thou muste liue so that thou make captine thy vnderstanding to the obedience of fayth But thou how greater thou art in the worlde mayest so muche the more hurte the Churche of God if thou shalte abuse the righte of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike fayth No otherwise therefore thou mayest haue entrie into the Churche than if thou shalt promise that thou wilte persist in that fayth and defende that Churche with all thy force which beeing receiued from the Apostles is continued by the successioÌ„ of Bishops vntil this day dispersed through out all the world But if it shall chaunce thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalte go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life M. Saunders nowe presupposeth that the king hearing the Bishop thus beginne to indent with him will beginne his answere to the Bishop thus I am ready to acknowledge the Christian fayth Why M. sand is not this inough if the Bishop séeke something else besides the acknowledging of the Christian fayth Surely he neither séeketh the glory of God nor the Princes saluation nor the encrease of Christendome but his owne sucre authoritie Well the Bishop will haue him graunt to all the residue of his conditions or else he will not baptise him Heere agayne he presupposeth the king to say further But I neither promise that I will with my sworde defende the Catholike fayth neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the right of my kingdome Ye tel the kings tale parcially M. San â–ª you should make it flatly to denie that whiche the Bishop exacted of him to do Which was to promise to defend not the faith but that faith that Church c. Which the king denieth to make promise vnto the Bishop on suche condition Yea saith M. sand saucely steppeth in for the B. can the B. to this man thus affected minister the sacrament of baptisme c. And why not M. San. if the bishop be not worse affected him selfe than this man is for you graunt your selfe that he is wel affected towards the christiaÌ„ faith would acknowledge it which is al one with defending it And if the bishop be not content with this promise hath not the king good cause to suspect him he telleth him of bondes conditions to be made to renounce the right of his kingdome if he perâ—…e not in that faith with al his force if he defeÌ„d not that church that was receiued from the Apostles continued by successioÌ„ of B. till this day and iâ—… dispersed throughout all the world May not here the king
as it is likely by M. sand tale he hath witte wisedome inough begin to smel a rat think with him selfe what should he meane to put this differâ—…ce I freely offered to receiue the Christian fayth and he wyll not take this offer but wyll haue me receiue that faith and that Churche that he sayth was from the Apostles and is continued by succession of Bishops till this day and is dispersed throughout all the worlde Why and is not this the christian fayth and the christian Churche If it be I offered my selfe to it before but he refaseth my offer Then surely this is not that fayth and Church that he meaneth And why should he rather haue me bounde to the Apostles if they were Christes Apostles than to Iesus Christ him selfe shal I be baptised in their names why should I binde my selfe to Bishops succestors which what they haue ben how ill or how welsome of them haue succeeded their predecessors I knowe not nor I will sweare for theÌ„ And why shoulde I then sweare vnto them rather than vnto the fayth of Christ who is the chiefe Bishop of our soules And why should I binde my selfe to â–ª Church dispersed throughout all the worlde What meaneth he by this the greatest and mightiest multitude or the lyttle flocke of Christ scattered in euery Nation or be it greate or little why should he bind me more to men than vnto Iesus Christ And why requireth he to these things as if it were euen to Christe him selfe and to the fayth of him the defence of all my force and what meaneth he by this force that I shall for all these thinges gather all my power and make sharpe warre where and when he coÌ„maundes me and that I shal oblige my selfe to al these conditions on the forfeyture of my kingdome and depose my selfe from my â—…ght become a priuate man and leaue the office charge that God hath called me vnto for leauing of these things Yea that if I should not wilfully do otherwise but if I should chaunce to do otherwise And what if he would threape vpon me that I chaunced to do otherwise Surely surely this is not playne dealing with me nor any good meaning to me He seekes not my saluation but my kingdome that thus would snarle me and is not content that I fréely offer to acknowledge the Christian fayth What if the King would cast all these coniectures master Saunders trow you he hathe not good occasion ministred yea what if the King héere vpon béeing thus refused of the Bishop examined these thinges throughly shoulde he not finde foule holes in your coate I tell you it would touche you to the quicke And perhaps it had béene better for the Bishop to haue taken the kinges frée offer and without suche conditions to haue giuen him his baptisme for else he might haue it of some other Bishops hands that had learned of Christ not to breake the broosed reede nor to quenche the smoking flaxe nor to caste off by suche indentinges this godly disposed Prince but with all humilitie and diligence to receiue instruct baptise him yea and bewray all your Popishe iuglinges And what had ye gotten then by these your proude conditions hathe not your pride and couetousnesse made you make a faire market and loose so riche a pray But nowe let vs yet admitte your presupposall further The king would be baptized The Bishop refuseth except on these conditions to admitte him The king séeth there is no remedie he receyueth these conditions What is his dutie nowe to do but with all his force to persist and defende them â–ª What is that for sooth that fayth and Church which beeing receyued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this day and dispersed throughout all the worlde Nowe sithe this is his charge and he is bounde to obserue it with all his force on forfeyture of his kingdome is it not gâ—… reason that he examine and boulte out which this fayth and Churche is Especially since he heareth that there is great coÌ„trouersie about these matters and that there are both wise learned famous men of both sides Yea sayth he if the case be not cleare that I am so strayghtly bounde in it standes me vpon to looke to this geare better and to heare bothe parties say what they can that I may know and be sure that I keepe my promise and not to forfayt my bonde What now for his better assurance shal the prince do must he not here call bothe the parties before him say to the Bishop that tooke thiâ—… promise of him â—…y Lorde you remember what promise you made me make vnto you or euer you would baptise me And nowe I heare say the â—…oyntes that you made me promise to defende with all my force and to persist therein are litigious You holde them one way and your aduerfaries another way you say your fayth and Church is that faith and Church that was receiued of the Apostles for howesoeuer the succession of Bishops haue helde it and whersoeuer it hath bene dispersed the receipte of the Apostles from Christ himselfe I perceiue is the first and principal condition that I promised to persist in and to defende withall my force The other twayne must both depende on this I chiefly minde therfore to kâ—…pe this the other as they shal agrée hereto But here your aduersaries on the other pâ—…t 〈◊〉 and offer to proue it that your faith and Church is not that faith and Church that the Apostles receiued and deliuered but iâ—… a faith and Church â—…egenerate and swarnedfromit And therefore if you will not be youre selues the cause tâ—… make me breake the promise that ye made me take ye muste cléere your selues of that â–ª your aduersaries obiect against you and confute them And you she Bishops aduersaries on the other side mustâ—… bring foorthe youre prooues and defences of youre faythe and Churche and shewe good reason why I should not impugne your fayth and churche and defende theirs agaynst you And héere for equall dealing betweene you bothe béeing parties playntife or defendaunt neither of you your selues shall be your owne or your aduersaries Iudge for the one were partialitie the other iniurie neither I whom the matter bothe for my office and for my promise and forfeyture toucheth nearest will be your Iudge but an indifferent hearer of bothe parties And bicause you bothe admitte the Scriptures to be Gods worde and both the Apostles fayth and the Apostles Church is manifestly recorded in the Scriptures and Christ also willeth vs to search the Scriptures for they beare recorde of him the matter shall be determined by the Scriptures Both of your faiâ—…hes and Churches shall be leueled by that platforme that shall be there apparantly expressed And as the Scripture shall strike the stroke betwéene you I will minister 〈◊〉 rightly to saue my promise And will deâ—…ende wâ—…th
Church of Christe either in making lavves for it or in taking armes for it or in giuing his life for his brethren and much more in yelding or giuing vp his kingdome for his saluation If any man come to me saith Christ and hate not his father and mother and vvife and children and brethren and sisters yea and his life also he can not be my disciple But any kingdome ought not be deerer to a king than his ovvn life Therfore sith euery Christian ought to giue his life for Christe hovve muche more ought any king rather to hate his kingdome than that he shoulde forsake christ But and if any man that commeth to Christ thinke vvith himselfe otherwise than thus he doth nothing but deceiue himselfe For in that that Christ hath set this lavve in his Gospell that no man shoulde come to him that is to say enter into his Church but he that should be readie rather to forsake al the goods of this vvorld thā leaue the faith of Christ then in that that any Christian king is made a Christian he promiseth not only to fosake his kingdome but his life also rather than hee shoulde bring offence to his brethren If therefore the same king shall so sinne against the Christian faithe that by no meanes he vvill be amended he may by the ministers of Christ be depriued of his kingdome Not that all temporall kingdomes are vnder the ministers of Christe but bycause the kingdomes of all Christian Princes by the nature of the thing that is done are made subiecte to them so ofte as it is expedient for the saluation of the people that the kingdomes should either this vvay or that vvay be translated Here is a faire tale M. Saunders but a foule conclusion The drift of all is this Byshops maye translate kingdomes either this vvaye or that vvaye as they shall thinke expedient for the peoples saluation Howe say you M. Saunders is not this your conclusion you make exception that all kingdoms be not vnder you ▪ as though some were as indéede you haue gotten too many vnder you Where Christe saith you shall haue none vnder you but you will néedes haue some Yea by this rule you wil haue al christian kingdomes vnder you For howe are they not vnder you if they maye be translated this vvay or that vvay and giuen to this man or to that man as ofte as you shall thinke it expedient are not you then the Kings of Kings when you may depose and sette vp Kings and alter cleane topsie turuie which you call translating the state of euery kingdome at your pleasures Indéede Master Saunders the Byshop sayde not thus muche before to the King that woulde be baptized Well say you it was but his negligence or forgetfulnesse And what if he sayde nothing heereof yet he ment it yea and the Kyng himselfe promised it Where finde you that Master Saunders Yes say you he promysed that and more too vvhen he made himselfe a member of Chryste and desired of Chryste to be saued For in that doing vvill he nill he this promise is contained that hee shall minister to Christe and to the Churche of Chryste eyther in making Lavves for it or in taking Armes for it or in giuing his life for his brethren and muche more giuing vp his kingdome for their saluation You iumble many thinges togyther Master Saunders And yet goe to we graunte you all this the King promised thus muche but not vvill he nill he in spite of his bearde he did it vvillingly in offering to acknovvledge the faythe of Chryste wherein he promised to minister to Chryste and to the Church of Christ as you say But whether you be Christ or no I thinke the King will make no question But perhaps he may moue the questiō whether you be the Church yea any parte of the Churche of Christ or no. And if he finde you to be whiche I doubte me will be an harde matter to persuade the king if it be wel examined well then the King shall minister vnto you But howe shal he minister as your slaue and be at commaundemente I thinke Maister Saunders you can not picke that out of his promise Nay your selfe expounde the contrarie saying that he shall make Lavves for the Churche If you then bée the Churche as ye pretende to be he muste make Lavves for you But the Lavve maker to any body by your owne saying and by good reason is aboue the parties for whome he maketh Lavves and therefore the king not onely in the ruling of you but euen in his ministring vnto you is aboue you Nowe if he finde you not to be of the Churche then muste he make lavves and minister iustice againste you for vsurping that title and deceiuing of his people But say you he must giue his life for his brethren much more his kingdome for their saluation You say well Master Sanders he ought to doe so if the forsaking his kingdome or his life woulde be his brethrens saluation But you put a hard case and not commonly séene for I thinke the peoples getting of saluation lyeth not vpon the kings losing his life or kingdome but onely vpon Iesus Chryste If you speake of other accidentes and occasions twentie to one the people are oftener in more danger by the kings death or deposition than by his life or gouernemente excepte he be a very tyrant and indéede his life and gouernement may doe much hurte and it were better he were fayre buried or did resigne than he should gouerne Gods people But God knoweth best what he hath to doe and can take him awaye when he will or can suffer him to scourge and exercise his people wyth affliction The chaffe and stubble wyll burne with fyre but the Golde is purifyed the electe are tryed and are not damned by his tyrannie nor they consent vnto his wickednesse nor yet they reuolt from his obedience nor rebell and depose him but possesse their soules in pacience and crye to God to succor them Nowe as it falleth out thus in the worste case that you can put that no Byshop nor other subiecte may depose his Soueraign so in a good Prince no such thing is to be feared And since it is to men vncertaine how the king will proue they iudge and hope the best bycause they knowe not the worst and extorte no such promise of him Much lesse ought they to make a rule that he shall resigne or suffer death whē the people will haue him and say his life or gouernmente hinders their saluation or when the Byshops shall say it is hurtfull to them then at the Byshops so saying the king must either lose his kingdome or his life this is a hard case M. Saunders for poore kings and trowe you this is contained in their promise Well say you Christ saide if any man come to me and hate not his father his mother his vvife his children yea his
Kingdomes and depose Kings as they shall thinke expedient and to proue this â–ª we must saye they be in the Churches power and to proue that wee must saye they are spirituall â–ª and so spirituall men may deale with spirituall thyngs And for this reason we can sée no cause nowe but that Christian Kingdomes are spirituall that we spirituall men which are the Church might haue the disposing of them Well then I see also Maister Saunders that for aduantage you can and you can not see And play seest me and seest me not But who seeth not that hath any indifferent eyes that this is but legerdemain and that you speake flat contraries in one thing although you turne your tale to other purposes But let go that you saw not before let vs loke what you see in Princes now Nowe you see that they are spirituall And why so not bicause they doe the spirituall actions of the Priests but bicause of their better part that is of the spirite of God and bicause of the end wherto they driue al their things to become as it were spirituall Why then M. Saunders your eyes mighte serue you if your hart could serue you to see this withall that although the Prince can not do the spirituall actions of spirituall persons yet this hindreth not that he may notwithstanding be a gouernor ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiasticall and maye ouersee them both And if you can see the one and not the other surely your sight is partiall But newe M. Saunders loking another way will haue Princes no furder spirituall than in that they are vnder the Church And here making the Maior the Minor the former the later by a figure called Hysteron proteron the carte before the horse he will proue that all spirituall things are so much vnder the Churche of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body and so Kings and Kingdomes as is sayde before beyng spirituall things are so muche vnder the Churche of Christ that she may freely to the profit of the whole mysticall body dispose and decree of Kings and kingdomes But first Maister SauÌ„ders we denie your Maior For although in certaine things it be true to wit in such things as are left to the disposition of the Church that is to order and dispose such things as of their nature are indifferent to the profite of the whole mysticall body or any part thereof for these things are called spirituall things not properly in their owne nature but as in spirituall causes the spirituall persons vse them and yet all this is not so freely lefte to the Churches disposition that some principall persons in the Church as the Prince or the Pastors haue not the chiefest stroke in the disposition of them For if they were so free that euery member in the Churche shoulde haue his nay or yea in disposing of theÌ„ when would they be disposed And if at length they were it would peraduenture fall out in the end so little to the profite of the whole mysticall body that it woulde be rather the hinderaunce and disquieting of it But besides these spiritual thinges there are a great many other of whiche some in déede are méere spirituall as the worde of God the Sacramentes of Christ the Articles of fayth the Commaundementes of life and all suche thinges as God hathe either expressed in his worde or is necessarily conteyued in it These thinges béeing spiritual are not so vnder the churche of Christ that the churche may freely dispose and decree of them But they statly dispose and decree of the churche and the churche can not alter nor swarue one iote from them Whiche if she shoulde she shoulde not profite hir selfe for she is the whole mysticall body but destroy hir selfe and dissolue the whole body and euery part therof And such as these things are is the estate of a King and kingdome whiche althoughe it be not so méere a spirituall thing but so farre foorthe spirituall as your selfe confesse yet bicause it is the ordinaunce of God and God hath in his worde set foorthe the office of a King and declareth that the setting vp and pulling downe of Kinges and the alterations of kingdomes belongeth to him selfe and neuer gaue that authoritie to his Churche muche lesse to his Ministers to set vp and depose Kinges and alter kingdomes Kinges therefore and their kingdomes no more than other spirituall thinges are not so vnder the churche of Christe that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Neither hathe the whole mysticall body any more thraldome or lesse fredome that Kings and kingdomes are not so vnder hir or that she maye not freely dispose and decree of them as she shall thinke moste profitable to the whole mysticall body than she hathe more thraldome or lesse freedome bicause she can not alter nor dispose the other spirituall things Yea in this case the Churche léeseth lesse libertie than in the other for the freedome of the Churche â–ª béeing a mysticall body is cleane another matter pertayning to the conscience and is a mysticall freedome from the tyrannie of Sathan from the cursse of the lawe from the bondage of sinne from ceremonies and humayne constitutions and not from obedience to kinges and to haue superioritie ouer them and libertie to depose them and to translate their kingdomes Whiche freedome and superioritie is not spirituall but carnall and worldly And if the Churche had it she woulde not onely bring kinges and kingdomes but euen hir selfe in bondage and therefore Christe hathe barred it Whiche freedome bicause the Popishe Churche aspireth vnto and claymeth and holdeth ouer â–ª kinges and kingdomes she is not the true Church of Christ that they boast of but rather a Iewishe Synagoge dreaming vpon an earthly Messias or rather a Persian or Turkishe Temple that measureth the freedome and dignitie of Gods Church by the pompe and mighte of the worlde to depose kings and dispose of their kingdomes at their pleasures But to proue that kings and kingdomes pertayne not to the free disposition of the Church but of God I will desire no better prooues nor example than euen M. Saunders heere brings foorthe Sithe therefore sayth he the â–ª people of Israell would needes desire a king to be giuen theÌ„ Samuel by the commaundement of God tooke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the head of Saule and kissed him â–ª and sayde beholde God anoyâ—…teth thee to be the Prince ouer his Inheritaunce which to me seemeth to signifie as though it had bene sayde except the Lorde anoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer his people whiche he hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to him selfe For in that that is Gods no man can take power
time done 〈◊〉 to the Prince trow you ye neuer did it Did your Pope neuer iniurie to the Emperour did your bishops neuer iniurie to kings did your spiritualtie neuer iniurie to the laytie I thinke for shame you will not denie it If you do you shall haue witnesses inow of your owne side against you Agayne did your Pope neuer suffer iniurie to be done to Princes and might haue helped it and did not denie it you can for shame Moreouer did your Pope his Clergy neuer saynt from iustice and truth you dare not séeke to couer it it is so open and confessed What remedie now to amend these things the gouernors of the Church say you must admonish theÌ„ to decline from euill and do good Who are these gouernors of the Churche that ye speake of our selues say you Why then you must admonish your selues Would to God you had that grace M. San. that you would enter into iudgement with your selues and admonishe your selues But now running headlong in your faults and wil not heare them tolde of any other but thinke you do well he that shal tel you the contrarie you wil tell him he is an heretike if he come in your clawes you will burne him although he were some of your owne companie for so you haue serued diuers that haue rebuked your faults errors yea you are so sotted on your selues that you maintein you can not erre O how roughly wil you admonish your selues how soone shall all the worlde looke for your amendment Is not this a plaine mockerie with the world world is it not more than time for Christian princes that are in déede the gouernors of the Churche to admonishe you I denie not but you may yea ought to admonish the Prince also if he be suche an offender as you imagine But that you oughte to be the onely admonishers of them and not your selues of them to be admonished â–ª you sée the inconuenience And yet there is a difference betwéene admonishing and gouerning and a greater difference betwéene admonishing deposing But by little and little you drawe to wards it But what and if the Prince say you will not amend him selfe And what say I if the Priestes wil not amend theÌ„ selues we must make hast say you to other remedies Yea but not suche haste M. Sâ—… that you break your sâ—…nnes and much lesse such hast that you breake the ordinaunce of god For in such haste is more waste than spéede the end of it neuer wanteth â—…o We graunt you there are remedies in the Church of God for such inconueniences but no such remedies as for the subiect to attempt to depose his Soueraigne and stirre the people to rebellion But if any say you beeing admonished amende not him selfe we are bidden to denounce him to the Church VVho if if he will not heare the Church is to be accounted as an Ethnike or a publicane Are you bidden M. Sanders if he be your Prince to renounce your ciuil polytike obedience that you ought him yea although he were in déede an Ethnike if you find this you come somwhat néerer to the purpose else you do not only wrest this place which is not spoken of Princes but also straggle cleane from the matter in question But now say you if any King not hearing the Church be permitted to holde and administer his kingdome ouer Christians who seeth not all the people ouer whome that King ruleth to come into most certaine danger of losing the faith for that saying is no lesse true than auncient After the example of the king the whole world is framed So while only Ieroboam as I sayd before worshipped two Calues the one in Bethel the other in Dan and appoynted Priestes not of the sonnes of Leui but of the basest of the people This thyng became an offence to tenne Tribes and for the greatest parte of Israell the faythe peryshed The danger and offence is great we graunt of Princes thus offending But for subiects to depose their Princes for these dangers or offences the danger and offence were not remedied but augmeÌ„ted For what Prince were not then in danger if you would lay these offences to his charge were he neuer so giltlesse of them if he neuer so little offended you ye mightâ—… say he did you iniurie or he suffered other to do it he helped you not he foughte not in your quarell agaynst those Princes on whome you woulde haue set him If he swarued at any time from iustice or but spoke a worde awrie yea if he but saynted from those things you woulde haue him do would not acknowledge that he so dyd who you reproued him for it when you tolde it one to another for you call your selues the Church then in all poste haste the prince must be couÌ„ted as an Ethnike or a publicane be deposed froÌ„ his kingdome the people muste rebell In what danger by this doctrine both the Prince the people stand your selues also the teach this dangerous doctrine is apparaÌ„t The exaÌ„ple of Ieroboam is a greater case but as great as it was neither the priests nor the prophets atteÌ„pted to depose IeroboaÌ„ nor the people rebelled agaynst him no nor the tribe of Iuda nor RoboaÌ„ were permitted to war against him for all this great losse danger that the people receiued by him Sithe therefore say you the wisdome of God hathe not lefte the Churche of God whiche is a citie excellently founded and defenced without a medicine which it may giue to suche a disease neither is there any other medicine can helpe than that which taketh away so euill a king from among the people and giueth the kingdome to a better man we muste beleeue that suche power is graunted at the least to the chiefe Pastor of the Churche in these wordes feede my sheepe and whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bounde also in heauen So that the chiefe Pastor can not onely excommunicate a wicked king but also set his subiectes free from al obedience of him The wisedome of God as you say M. Sanders hathe not lefte the Church of God without medicines for suche diseases Gods worde is euen a storehouse of plaisters as well CoÌ„solidatiues as Corrosiâ—…es for the Ministers of Christs to apply them to any infected members But these medicines that are taken out of the worde of God you despise and reiecte as too base simples vaunt of your owne compoundes There is a medicine in gods word called In patientia vestra possidebitis animas vestras yâ—… shall possesse your soules in patience when a wicked Prince â—…oth vexe them There is another called In fide fundati stabiles beyng founded in faith and stable Another called Ad te leuaui oculos meos I haue lifted vp mine eyes to thee c. Another In Domino confido non
timebo quid mihi faciat homâ—… I put my confidence in the Lorde I will not feare what man can doe vnto me Another called beati qui persecutionem patiuntur propter iustitiam Blessed are they that suffer persecution for righteousnesse And a number of such excellent medicineâ—… there are And in déede there is such a medicine too as you sâ—…y vt auferatur de medio populi that he should be taken from among the people But there is but one Phisition that knoweth the right confection of the strong purgation and that is God himselfe Ministers of diuerse sortes he hath by whom he giueth this medicine but I neuer read that any godly Bishop or Prieste or faithfull subiecte did euer minister it to his Soueraigne The texte that you cite hereto is not as you cite it auferat regem adeo maluÌ„ de medio populi that may take away so euil a king from among the people but auferte malum ex vobis ipsis take awaye the euill from among you not the Prince from among the people For that were to take away one euill with another And how should this euill be taken awaâ—… Ne commisceamiâ—…i fomicarijs c. be you not mingled together or kepe no familiaritie with fornicators He saith not depriue him of hys life or liuing but be not defiled with his wickednesse And the greatest censure that s. Paule speaketh of is excoÌ„munication pertaining properly not to the goods and bodies but to the soules of men Neither speaketh he there at all of Princes but of priuate men and equals in the Church of Christ whoÌ„â—…e calleth brethren For the Kings and Princes at that time were 〈◊〉 Christened And he speaketh of such as they might lawâ—…y sâ—…un their companie such as Lyra calleth Ribaldes or verlets drunkards whorehunters Idolaters but not such as in the Ciuill polycie they muste néedes obey nor those that were out of the Church of Christ. I haue written to you saith he by an epistle that you should not intermingle your selues with fornicators not vtterly from fornicators of this world or couetous persons or rauenous or worshippers of Images else should ye go out of this world But nowe I haue written to you that ye intermingle not your selues If any which is called a brother be a whoremaister or couetous person or a worshipper of Images or a sclaunderer or a drunkerd or a rauener with suche an one we shoulde not eate meate For what haue I to do to iudge them that are without do not you iudge of them that are within as for those that are without God iudgeth Take away the euill from among you Nowe saith M. Saunders that S. Paule speaketh of taking away so euill a King from among the people and this he setteth downe in distinct letters as though S. Paule had ment the Priests should depose an euill King from gouerning the people Where he speaketh not to the Priestes but to the people and would haue them shunne the company of suche false brethren as were among them But M. Saunders will say doth not this stretch to a king so well as to any other if he be a brother in the faith of Christ I graunt it doth in that he is a brother And if he be infected with such vices hée also is so farre forth to be shunned But not to be shunned in that he is a Prince and gouernor of the people muche lesse the people to forsake their obedience to his authoritie bycause they must forsake their obedience to his vices He maye be so shunned priuately as the publique gouernement be not shunned he may be iudged of the faithfull in their courte of conscience concerning his crime but he maye not be iudged in their Courte of Consistorie concerning his worldly power he maye be taken héede of but not taken awaye he maye be euen excommunicated also by the ministers but not by them deposed bicause howsoeuer he deserueth it yet haue they no authoritie that stretcheth so farre That remedie belongeth not to them but vnto God. But now sir what and if the Prince be not onely no such malefactor but goeth about to resorme these malefactours where as other priuate men can but shunne their companie and the ministers of Christ can but excommunicate them which though it be neuer so great a censure yet they estéeme it not and that the Prince will punishe suche malefactors in their goods and bodies yea and take them awaye from among the people by death banishmente prisonment or otherwise as his office requireth he should do to whom the sworde is giuen against the malefactor what now if it fall oute that the Popishe Priestes be the greatest malefactors in these notorious crimes what if they be not only priuate whore maisters but also publike maynteiners of bankes and stewes for whores and dispisers and restrainers of honorable matrimonie what if the Popish Priests be so couetous and rauenous that they haue gotten almoste the wealth of all Christian kingdomes into their fingrings and are neuer satisfied with deuising naughtie meanes to picke mens money out of their purses what if the Popishe Priests be worshippers of Images and causers of them to be worshipped what if manye of them be common drunkardes and all of them drunken with spirituall drunkennesse which is a great deale worse what if the Popishe Priestes be sclaunderers of those that be in authoritie and woulde take the Kings sworde and Scepter oute of his hande and pull his Diademe off his heade and plucke his roabe from his backe and turne hym quite oute of hys throne and Kingdome and byd hym goe shake hys eares and styrre all hys subiectes to rebellion what if all these and an infinite sorte of other horrible crymes were founde in the Popishe priests themselues oughte not this rule of Sainte Paule to take place on them and all Christians to abhorre and shunne them and all Princes to depose and punishe them Nowe whether the Popishe Priestes be culpable in these crimes or no I thinke the crie of Sodome and Gomorre did not more astende vp to heauen than the crie of the Popishe Priests abhomination resoundeth in all the earth And thus this sentence that Maister Saunders thought to wrest against Princes if it be well examined falleth more out against the Priests themselues As for the other two sentences Iohn 21. Math. 16. are no lesse wrested herevnto VVe must beleue sayth he that this power to take away the Prince and giue his Kingdome to a better â–ª is grauÌ„ted at the least to the chief pastor of the Church in these wordes feede my sheepe and whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen also In so muche that the chiefe pastor maye not onely excommunicate a wicked King but also set free his subiectes from all obedience of him And finde you this in these two sentences Maister Saunders we must beleeue it say you that this
he chooseth out the saying of Christ is Pilate My kingdome is not of this world This he saith we alleage before all things I omit his sclanders that we can not suffer â–ª that the flesh should giue place to the spirit that the spiritual Kingdome should rule the temporal and that we fauour to much the fleshe and the worlde All whiche are but méere sclanders and do fitter serue to reâ—…urne vpon the Papists But let vs come to his answere of this obiectioÌ„ which I graunt is one of our obiections vnto them althoughe not as he saythe the chiefe obiection but suche an one as master Sanders with all his shiftes is not able directly to answer to it First what a worldly kingdome the Pope séeketh and possesseth is apparant in so muche that fewe worldly Kingdomes in worldly mighte and glorie are comparable vnto it Although God be praysed it decayeth dayly notwithstanding al his practises to repayre and vndershore the ruines therof Against this his worldly kingdome we obiect that sithe he pretendes to be the Uicar of Christ and Christ statly denieth his kingdome to be such a worldly kingdome if the Pope he his Minister he can not clayme nor enioy suche a worldly kingdome What fetche now can M. Sand. findâ—… or any in all the worlde to elude this playne argument we must sayth he distinguish of this worde the worlde â–ª which somtime signifieth sâ—…ne darknesse and the reprobate In this sense Christes Kingdome is not of the world Sometimes the worlde signifieth all visible creatures and in this sense it is in the worlde though it be not of the world that is it hathe not his originall of the world but from god But this hindreth not but that beeing in the world worldly kingdomes may be subiect to it And so we sor not marking these distinctions are fâ—…ly deceiued Whether we be deceyued or you M. Sanders or whether we or you would deceiue others all the worlde easily may perceiue We admitte your distinction of beeing in the 〈◊〉 but not of the worlde Neyther disallowe we your significations of the worlde althoughe subtilly you conceale those significations thereof that it oughte to haue béene further distinguished into For the worlde signifieth often times the glorie mighte riches power and pleasures of worldly thinges especially when this worde Kingdome is ioyned to it And this is the very natural sense of a worldly kingdome that is to say a state in or of the worlde excelliâ—… in these worldly thinges Nowe this which is the very naturall sense you â—…yde and runne about the 〈◊〉 with this and that signification to carrie the readers 〈◊〉 awâ—… â–ª from the proper signification of it We denie not that the kyngdome of Christe is in this worlde neyther denie wée that Christian kinges oughte to submitte them selues vnto it But we denie that thys kingdome stretcheth to the worldly gouernment and possession of kingdomes or Realmes to the deposing of Kings and translating the states of Polycies whiche is the proper question now in hande And to shewe that this sentence of Christe without all shifting or shuffling is simply and playnely thus to be vnderstoode I will desire none other besides S. Augustine whome you cite and the auncient Fathers than euen the Papists own iudgements and interpretations on this sentence My kingdome is not of this worlde whiche the Glosse expoundeth thus Quasi decepti estis c. As though he should say ye are deceiued for I hinder not your gouernment in the worlde And so sayth Lyra Non quaerit c. He seeketh not the temporall gouernment of this worlde c. My kingdome is not from hence that is to say so farre as appertaineth to gette these temporall things But agaynst this seemeth that which is sayd in the Psalme 46. God is the King of all the earth but he is very God as he is very man therefore his kingdome is of this worlde VVe must say that according to the veritie of his diuinitie all thinges are subiect vnto Christe notwithstanding so farre as appertayneth to his humanitie he came not in his first comming to gouerne temporally but rather to serue suffer And so it appeareth that he sufficiently excludeth that that was laide to his charge of vsurping the kingdome of Iewry bicause there was no question of him but in that that he was man and for the present state that he was in whiche appertayned to his first comming Ferus expounding this saying My kingdome is not of this worlde Quasi diceret c â–ª As though sayth he he shoulde say I graunt O Pilate and acknowledge my selfe to be a King this is euen that that I haue done this is that crime that is laide vnto me Howbeit vnderstand this thing aright I am in deede a king but so that I neither vsurpe not diminish the power of thy Keysar nor expell any of the Kings or Princes froÌ„ their power or dominioÌ„s And that thou mayst vnderstande the matter it selfe I am not a worldly king but an heauenly in whose handes are the hartes of all Kings although it seeme not so to thee My kingdome that is my principalitie or administration or my kingdome that is my lawes and rightes or my kingdome that is my ministers and subiects is not of this worlde that is not of man but of god I saith he am of him made King ouer his holy mount To conclude it is not of this worlde that is it is not temporall but eternall for the world and the lust therof doth passe away Besides this it is not of this world bycause it is not corporall but spirituall and is administred after another sorte than is a worldly kingdome For this is administred with a materiall sword but my kingdome hath no neede of this sword for the sword therof is the word of god The kingdome of the worlde hath Cities Towers Townes Villages Armies Armor my kingdome requireth onely the harts of men The world ruleth the goods and the bodyes but I rule the hartes and the consciences The world ruleth with a carnall power but it yeeldeth to the spirituall but I rule spiritually against sinne death and hell Thou seest how beautifully Christ describeth his kingdom After the same maner almost doth Zacharias speake of the kingdome of Christe Beholde thy King commeth vnto thee meeke and poore c. Howbeit we must marke that he saith not my kingdome is not in this world For Christ also is the Lorde of the world for all things were made by him all power is giuen to him in heauen and earth now if the kingdome of Christ be not of this world then it followeth that there is yet another worlde And therfore although thou seest not the promises of Christ fulfilled in this world yet despaire not for there is another world in the which is fulfilled whatsoeuer here is not fulfilled Againe bicause the kingdome of Christ is not of this world
be the pastor So that this place as it maketh nothing for the power of the Priests ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull so it maketh much here in against them For if S. Paule in such matters of goods and bodily things rather than they should not haue a Christian iudge woulde haue them chose among themselues euen a contemptible person how much more now when the Church hath faithfull iudges and Christian Princes it ought in such controuersies to run to them for Iustice rather than to the Priests and Bishoppes that are of another calling Moreouer least any shoulde say that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to do with the businesse of this worlde he sayth expressely do ye not know that the saintes shall iudge of thys world and if the world shal be iudged by you are ye vnworthy to iudge of small things know ye not that we shall iudge the Angels how much more worldly things Behold the Apostle reasoneth from the spirituall power to the temporall on this wise To whom that which is more is lawfull to him is lawfull that which is lesse But we Christians shall iudge of the world and we shall iudge the renegate Angels and the Deuils themselues the which commeth by the spirituall power â–ª wherby we be made the sonnes of God and the coinheritors of Christ much more therefore may we exercise secular iudgements VVherby it appeareth that secular things are both inferior â—…o spirituall and are not estranged from the spirituall power but may light vnder it chiefely then when the matter is in hand of punishing or iudging those men that are the meÌ„bers of the Church of Christ. 〈◊〉 saye not Master Saunders that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to doe vvith the businesse of this world this is but your sclaunder We say that the spirituall Ministers of the Churche of Christe haue not so to do with such vvorldly businesse that they maye turquise all the vvorlde and alter the states of vvorldly kingdomes and occupie them selues about vvorldly affaires in such vvorldly dominion as you pretende they maye Whereto you abuse shamefully Saint Paules sayings He speaketh there of vvorldly matters and you applye it to all iudgementes yea to the iudging of a kingdome â–ª But you replle he saith the Saints shall iudge the worlde and the Angels vvhiche are greater thinges than kingdomes howe muche more then kingdomes that are lesser things Trowe you Master Saunders he speaketh there of such iudging the vvorlde that they should iudge like chiefe Iustiâ—… of realmes and kingdomes whether this or that Prince shall enioye them or shall be dispossessed of them No M. Saunders she speaketh of no suche thing The worlde shall be iudged in them as Chrysostome well noteth Iudicabunt non ipsi iudices c. They shal iudge â–ª not they themselues sitting in iudgemeÌ„t exacting an accouÌ„t God forbid but they shal coÌ„demne the vvorld the vvhich signifying he saith and if in you c. He saith not of you but in you As who should say the iust condemnation of these that are the vvorldlings shall shine in the saluation of you that are the Saints This therefore proueth 〈◊〉 such worldly iudgemeÌ„t as you pretend Secondly you abuse S. Paule as though in speaking of the Saints he spake onely of the spirituall Pastors wheras he speaketh in generall of the whole congregation Are Saintes and Christians only Priestes with you this is both manifest wresting of S. Paule and shamelesse arrogancie in your selues But you say the Churche hath it by the spirituall povver vvherby vve be made the sonnes of God and coinheritors of Christe We graunt you Master Saunders But doth this spirituall povver belong onely to Priestes you say it appeareth hereby vve maye exercise secular iudgementes whome meane you by this vve Master Saunders your selues that are the Priestes But S. Paule speaketh of Christian people and not of the Pastors only yea least of al of the Pastors Wherevpon saith Haimo out of Gregorie on these wordes choose him that is contemptible Secundum Gregorium c. According to Gregorie by contemptible persons vvee may vnderstande secular men hauing the knovvledge of humaine lavves and in their personages being honorable who in comparison of them that vnderstand the diuine lawes and pierce the mysteries of the holy Trinitie are contemptible and simple although they be faithful â–ª And according to this sense vvee muste reade it affirmatiuely bicause suche are to be appointed vvhiche of the Canons are called the Sonnes of the Church I sprake it to your shame bycause althoughe I commaunde it not you ought to haue done it And therefore he commaundeth such to be ordeyned bycause they that ought to serue on the altare and meditate Diuine Sermons and giue the vvorde of preaching to the people ought to estraunge themselues from secular businesse and iudgements Likewise saithe your Cardinall Hugo The glosse calleth them contemptible that are not apt to great offices in the Church as to preach and teach And this is an argument that my lord the Pope ought not to appoint Masters of Diuinitie to be Iudges of temporall things To your shame saith the glosse that those should examine earthly causes that haue gotten the vvisedome of outvvarde things But those that are enryched vvith spirituall giftes ought not to be entangled vvith earthly businesse that vvhile they be not driuen to inferior goods they may be able to attende on the higher goods Hovvebeit this must greatly be cared for that they that shine in spiritual goods forsake not vtterly the businesse of their vveake brethreÌ„ Thus your Papists theÌ„selues are of a contrarie iudgement to you M. Saunders besides all your Popes and Councels Canons that the spirituall Pastors should not be these Iudges in secular things that here Saint Paule speaks on To wrest therefore these wordes spoken of any faithfull Christian only to your Priestes to wring this sentence from the state of the Churche then being without any faithfull Magistrate to the time now when they haue many and those not choseÌ„ of theÌ„selues but ordeyned of the higher Magistrate to wrythe it from the iudgements and taking vp of their petit quarels to the deposing or setting vp of Kings or altering kingdomes is clean beyond the meaning of S. Paule an euident violence iniurie to Gods word Now vpoÌ„ this sentence thus wrested you procéed to your argumeÌ„t saying For their goodes are so muche subiecte to the ecclesiasticall povver that it is lavvfull for the Churche of priuate men to ordeine Magistrates that should iudge of secular causes and not only of ecclesiasticall But no man can passe more righte to an other than he hath himselfe Therefore the Churche vvhich hath povver to make them Iudges that vvere priuate men before hath much more it selfe ouer those secular causes receiued povver by the Ministers of God that as Aaron are called to the
of Europe that neuer obeyed him and yet are Christian Kings then is not the obedience of the Pope necessarie to christianitie else not some but al Christian kings obey him he that obeyed him not were no Christian King. But novv say you there is no neede of myracles Then say I there is no need of such examples But if you deny the need of myracles why doth your Churche pleade vpon them abuse the world so much by them what be you become a Bogomile M. Sant nay then I wilturne you lose to M. Stapl. But why wil you not stand on myracles now Nowe say you want not faithful Princes whiche may performe and execute all this Then say I faithfull Princes haue authoritie to destroy false Pastors and not false Pastors no nor true Pastors to destroy neyther faythfull nor yet vnfaythfull Princes You cite the Prophecie of Zacharie That so great a fouÌ„taine of grace shoulde be open to all after the comming of Christe that euen ones father and mother should thrust him through vvhome they should vnderstande to speake a lye Truâ—… M. Saunders suche a prophecie there is in déede But had your selfe not bene giltie in your conscience to haue bene one of these lyers that the Prophete speaketh of you would not thus haue snatched at the sentence here and ther a piece like the Egiptian Dogge that M. Stapleton telleth vs of drinking in Nilus ryuer and dare not drinke a full draught for feare he be caught by the lyppes And so woulde you be caught by those lying lippes of yours if you hadde so fully set downe the prophecie that the Reader might haue perceiued who the lier is The wordes are these In that day there shall be a fountaine opened to the house of Dauid and to the inhabitants of Hierusalem for sinne and for vncleannesse And in that daye saith the Lord of Hostes I vvill cut off the names of the Idols out of the land they shall no more be remembred And I vvil cause the Prophetes and the vncleane spirites to depart out of the lande And vvhen any shall yet prophecie his father and his mother that begat him shall say vnto him thou shalt not liue for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lorde And his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through vvhen he prophecieth and in that daye shal the Prophetes be ashamed euery one of his vision when he hath prophecied Neither shall they weare a rough garment to deceiue but he shal say I am no Prophet I am a husbandman For man taught me to be an herdman from my youth vp And one shall say vnto him vvhat are these vvoundes in thy handes then shall he ansvvere thus vvas I vvounded in the house of my friendes By this sentence it appeareth that by this lier is not ment a Prince but a false Prophete Whereby you can not infer the present question that Priestes may punishe Princes but the contrary that Princes may punish priests may wel be inferred theron For by the fathers mothers thrusting through is not ment priuate punishment eche one to kil another nor that â—…his thrusting through belongeth to the Priests who take vpon theÌ„ to be the Prophets themselues to whose calling killing beloÌ„geth not but it appertaineth to Kings Quéens to ciuil Princes Magistrats that are the fathers mothers of gods people â—…o whom of right as hauing the sword from God the punishment of false Prophets appertaineth But who be these false prophets M. Saunders that the Prince shall punishe First all they which denie that fountayne of grace to be the only washing away of sinne and vncleannesse Whether your Pope your Prelats and you seke not other things besides this fountain of grace for the washing awaye of sin vncleannesse all the world knoweth and your owne practise confessions as is before proued to M. Stapleton charge you therwith Secondly these false prophets are those that mainteine Idolatrie which whether the popishe Priests maintaine or no as it is so apparant that no figge lease can hyde it so we haue harde your owne testimonies openly coÌ„fesse it Thirdly the false prophets are they that teach lyes in the name of the Lorde which what is it else but to teache other doctrines as necessarie to saluation than Christ and his Apostles taught their owne traditions and constitutions in the steade of the worde of god Howe this also toucheth the Popishe pastors besides the apparance therof we haue hard alreadie their owne witnesse Fourthly these false Prophetes were such that for their blinde and grosse ignorance they were more fitte to goe to carte than to schole to holde the plowe than to holde the place of a pastor suche blinde guides leadyng the blynde that a Childe scarce seuen yeere olde can giue more readily a better aunswere of the Christian fayth than many a Popishe Priest yea than some Doctors in diuinitie of twentie yeares continnance coulde haue done Fiftly these false Prophetes were such hipocrits as with counterfeit austeritie with sacke hearecloth with linsywooâ—…ie with long graue disguised prescribed rough garments haue borne to the simples eyes the counseâ—…ance of holy fathers and onely religious men These M. Saunders these are the lyers these are the false prophets that the true Prophet Zatharie here describeth foretelleth of their destruction How the fountaine of grace should be opened that you had stopped howe the death of Christ not such meanes as you had deuised should wash away all sinnes and vncleanneste how your Idolacrie should be pulled downe the very names of your Idols become odious How your lyes forgeries should be espied howe Princes should punishe you eueÌ„ to death how you should be so athamed of your lyes trumperies that you should cast of your cowles hyde your markes for shame say you were neuer Priests Monkes nor Friers but husbandmen â–ª All which how it hath come to passe all the worlde séeth and many of your owne side haue confessed and be ashamed and cry God mercie and haue forsaken their superstitious prelaties and haue chosen rather to liue like husbandmen than to deceiue the people and abuse gods name with lies any longer And if this prophecie haue not wrought this effect in you but that you remaine yet a shamelesse lying Prophet and would obstinately â—…naintaine these things it is a shrewd token you be giuen vp to a reprobate sense are blynded by gods righteous Iustice for refusing his mercie and that godly Princes should runne you through and execute the seueritie of gods iustice vpon you Now all this that detected you to be these lying prophets and that shewed the Princes authoritie and office to punishe you as you steightly passe it ouer so you wreste it cleane to another purpose as though they shuld be runne through that would not obey the Pope For so you