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world_n church_n rome_n visible_a 2,048 5 9.2278 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A07782 A Christian dialogue, betweene Theophilus a deformed Catholike in Rome, and Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England Conteining. a plaine and succinct resolution, of sundry very intricate and important points of religion, which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people; penned ... for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited popelings in England ... Bell, Thomas, fl. 1593-1610. 1609 (1609) STC 1816; ESTC S101425 103,932 148

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he_o that_o can_v hinder_v sin_n and_o do_v it_o not_o be_v as_o much_o in_o fault_n as_o he_o that_o do_v it_o tully_n that_o heathen_a orator_n know_v the_o same_o even_o by_o the_o sole_a light_n of_o nature_n this_o be_v so_o which_o the_o apostle_n confirm_v to_o be_v vocal_o true_a it_o follow_v by_o a_o necessary_a consequence_n that_o aaron_n be_v guilty_a of_o the_o idolatry_n commit_v and_o albeit_o the_o text_n say_v not_o that_o he_o teach_v idolatry_n vocal_o yet_o do_v it_o plain_o insinuate_v or_o rather_o full_o express_v that_o he_o do_v it_o virtual_o and_o effectual_o for_o first_o when_o the_o people_n require_v he_o to_o make_v they_o god_n he_o do_v not_o reprove_v they_o but_o ●5_n round_o consent_v to_o they_o where_o and_o when_o he_o shall_v have_v vocal_o tell_v they_o the_o law_n the_o truth_n whereof_o by_o silence_n he_o bewray_v again_o the_o people_n say_v open_o these_o be_v thy_o god_n o_o israel_n which_o bring_v thou_o out_o of_o the_o land_n of_o 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the_o whole_a congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a these_o be_v his_o express_a word_n &_o pro_fw-la hac_fw-la tantum_fw-la chrstus_fw-la in_o euangelio_fw-la ●ruit_fw-la ad_fw-la patrem_fw-la ego_fw-la rogavi_fw-la pro_fw-la te_fw-la and_o for_o this_o he_o speak_v of_o the_o whole_a faithful_a congregation_n christ_n only_a pray_v to_o his_o father_n in_o the_o gospel_n when_o he_o say_v i_o have_v pray_v for_o thou_o peter_n that_o thy_o faith_n fail_v not_o behold_v significati_fw-la and_o mark_v well_o and_o then_o yield_v your_o indifferent_a censure_n when_o christ_n say_v the_o famous_a papist_n panormitanus_fw-la pray_v that_o peter_n faith_n shall_v not_o fail_v he_o pray_v for_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o universal_a church_n who_o faith_n shall_v never_o fail_v indeed_o &_o the_o same_o panormitanus_fw-la prove_v his_o opinion_n
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eum_fw-la alijs_fw-la populis_fw-la docuit_fw-la and_o thus_o err_v must_v the_o gloss_n be_v understand_v which_o say_v that_o y●_z church_n which_o can_v err_v be_v not_o the_o pope_n but_o the_o congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a that_o be_v such_o as_o hold_v firm_o that_o faith_n which_o peter_n with_o other_o godly_a people_n teach_v three_o because_o panormitanus_fw-la that_o famous_a popish_a canonist_n abbot_n archbishop_n &_o cardinal_n for_o he_o be_v all_o four_o and_o therefore_o of_o high_a esteem_n with_o the_o pope_n and_o church_n of_o rome_n jump_v with_o the_o other_o learned_a papist_n gerson_n doctrine_n and_o sylvester_n and_o stout_o confirm_v their_o doctrine_n these_o be_v his_o express_a word_n no_o in_o concernentibus_fw-la sidem_fw-la etc._n etc._n for_o concern_v matter_n of_o faith_n even_o the_o judgement_n of_o one_o that_o be_v a_o mere_a layman_n ought_v to_o be_v prefer_v before_o the_o sentence_n of_o the_o pope_n if_o that_o layman_n can_v bring_v better_a reason_n out_o of_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n than_o 177._o do_v the_o pope_n and_o it_o skill_v not_o if_o one_o say_v that_o a_o council_n can_v err_v because_o christ_n pray_v for_o his_o church_n that_o it_o shall_v not_o fail_v for_o i_o say_v that_o although_o a_o general_a council_n represent_v the_o whole_a universal_a church_n yet_o in_o truth_n there_o be_v not_o true_o the_o universal_a church_n but_o representative_o for_o the_o universal_a church_n which_o be_v it_o that_o can_v err_v consist_v of_o the_o collection_n of_o all_o the_o faithful_a out_o whereupon_o all_o the_o faithful_a in_o the_o world_n make_v this_o church_n universal_a whereof_o christ_n be_v the_o head_n the_o pope_n be_v the_o uicar_n of_o christ_n but_o not_o true_o the_o head_n of_o y●_z church_n as_o note_v the_o gloss_n upon_o the_o clementines_n which_o gloss_n say_v notable_o that_o when_o the_o pope_n be_v dead_a the_o church_n want_v not_o a_o head_n and_o this_o be_v that_o church_n which_o can_v err_v whereupon_o it_o be_v possible_a that_o the_o true_a faith_n of_o christ_n may_v remain_v in_o one_o alone_a and_o so_o it_o may_v be_v true_o say_v that_o the_o faith_n fail_v not_o in_o the_o church_n christ_n before_o his_o passion_n pray_v for_o peter_n that_o his_o faith_n shall_v not_o fail_v therefore_o the_o church_n be_v not_o say_v to_o fail_v neither_o to_o err_v so_o long_o as_o the_o true_a faith_n abide_v in_o one_o only_a thus_o write_v this_o famous_a and_o learned_a papist_n four_o because_o ●_o the_o pope_n own_o dear_a gloss_n upon_o his_o own_o d●●rées_n do_v most_o lively_o describe_v that_o church_n which_o can_v err_v to_o be_v the_o congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a for_o thus_o be_v it_o there_o write_v in_o express_a term_n quaero_fw-la de_fw-la qua_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la intelligas_fw-la quod_fw-la hic_fw-la dicitur_fw-la quod_fw-la non_fw-la possit_fw-la errare_fw-la si_fw-mi de_fw-fr ipso_fw-la glosia_n papa_n certum_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la papa_n errare_fw-la potest_fw-la respondeo_fw-la ipsa_fw-la congregatio_fw-la fidelium_fw-la hic_fw-la dicitur_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la &_o talis_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la non_fw-la potest_fw-la non_fw-la esse_fw-la i_o ask_v thou_o o_o pope_n leuci_n of_o what_o church_n thou_o understand_v that_o which_o thou_o tell_v we_o in_o this_o place_n to_o wit_n that_o the_o church_n can_v err_v for_o if_o thou_o understand_v it_o of_o the_o pope_n himself_o it_o be_v certain_a that_o the_o pope_n may_v err_v i_o therefore_o answer_v that_o the_o church_n be_v here_o take_v for_o the_o congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a and_o such_o a_o church_n can_v never_o err_v indeed_o five_o because_o ●_o the_o popish_a ceremonial_a practice_n in_o the_o holy_a week_n while_o they_o put_v out_o all_o the_o candle_n save_v one_o do_v lively_o express_v unto_o we_o that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o bishop_n there_o may_v err_v indeed_o for_o thereby_o the_o romish_a church_n do_v give_v we_o to_o understand_v that_o the_o light_n of_o faith_n be_v extinguish_v ration●_n in_o all_o general_o save_v only_o in_o the_o bless_a virgin_n mary_n that_o most_o holy_a mother_n of_o true_a god_n and_o true_a man_n and_o so_o their_o usual_a yearly_a practice_n three_o day_n together_o in_o the_o week_n afore_o easter_n do_v utter_o condemn_v the_o faith_n of_o the_o pope_n and_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n six_o because_o s._n austen_n and_o s._n anselm_n do_v both_o of_o they_o so_o expound_v 15._o s._n paul_n word_n the_o ground_n of_o this_o objection_n these_o be_v s._n austin_n express_a word_n secundum_fw-la ergo_fw-la sabbathi_o etc._n etc._n therefore_o we_o may_v not_o understand_v the_o second_o of_o the_o sabbath_n to_o be_v any_o other_o than_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n yet_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n in_o the_o saint_n the_o church_n of_o christ_n in_o those_o which_o be_v not_o overcome_v with_o the_o tentation_n of_o this_o wicked_a pref_o world_n for_o they_o be_v worthy_a the_o name_n of_o firmament_n therefore_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n be_v call_v the_o firmament_n in_o those_o that_o be_v firm_a which_o be_v say_v he_o the_o church_n of_o the_o live_a god_n the_o pillar_n and_o firmament_n of_o truth_n the_o like_a say_n have_v the_o same_o holy_a father_n in_o many_o other_o place_n but_o especial_o where_o he_o write_v against_o the_o donatist_n ●_o anselmus_n a_o ancient_a father_n and_o well_o approve_v of_o the_o papist_n do_v follow_v saint_n austin_n interpretation_n these_o be_v his_o word_n domus_fw-la in_o qua_fw-la deus_fw-la habitat_fw-la etc._n etc._n the_o house_n in_o which_o god_n dwell_v be_v the_o whole_a congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a who_o be_v to_o be_v teach_v diverse_o and_o the_o same_o church_n be_v in_o the_o perfect_a a_o pillar_n that_o be_v sublime_a straight_o inconcussible_a support_v &_o lift_v up_o the_o young_a sort_n and_o in_o the_o same_o perfect_a it_o be_v the_o firmament_n of_o truth_n 15._o because_o in_o
objection_n wherein_o the_o papist_n glory_n more_o than_o a_o little_a make_v nothing_o for_o they_o for_o as_o say_v those_o holy_a father_n these_o word_n already_o recite_v 〈◊〉_d speak_v to_o the_o whole_a congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a which_o be_v or_o shall_v be_v to_o the_o world_n end_n and_o saint_n a●ston_n prove_v it_o by_o two_o reason_n first_o because_o not_o only_o the_o apostle_n but_o other_o together_o with_o they_o shall_v be_v his_o witness_n in_o jerusalem_n and_o samaria_n albeit_o christ_n speak_v that_o of_o they_o touch_v the_o be_v witness_n of_o he_o as_o he_o speak_v this_o to_o they_o concern_v his_o spiritual_a presence_n &_o therefore_o as_o he_o speak_v the_o other_o to_o all_o the_o faithful_a so_o do_v he_o also_o this_o y●_z be_v promise_v his_o invisible_a presence_n not_o only_o to_o the_o apostle_n or_o pastor_n of_o the_o church_n but_o even_o to_o all_o the_o faithful_a in_o the_o world_n second_o because_o christ_n speak_v that_o to_o his_o apostle_n as_o pertain_v only_o to_o they_o which_o for_o all_o that_o do_v nothing_o at_o all_o concern_v they_o as_o if_o he_o have_v say_v it_o be_v not_o a_o good_a reason_n to_o deny_v christ_n presence_n to_o the_o whole_a church_n because_o he_o utter_v the_o word_n only_o to_o the_o apostle_n for_o see_v he_o speak_v that_o to_o the_o apostle_n which_o pertain_v nothing_o to_o they_o but_o only_o and_o sole_o to_o other_o much_o more_o may_v he_o speak_v y●_z to_o they_o which_o betonge_v to_o they_o with_o other_o the_o first_o reply_n theoph._n christ_n himself_o say_v that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n shall_v teach_v the_o apostle_n all_o truth_n even_o many_o thing_n whereof_o they_o be_v not_o capable_a then_o and_o therefore_o do_v he_o reserve_v 16._o those_o thing_n till_o the_o come_a of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n who_o shall_v continue_v with_o they_o for_o ever_o for_o that_o end_n remig._n i_o answer_v that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n after_o christ_n ascension_n teach_v the_o apostle_n all_o truth_n indeed_o of_o such_o understand_v thing_n as_o he_o have_v reserve_v by_o reason_n of_o their_o ●udity_n and_o imperfection_n in_o conceive_v heavenly_a doctrine_n but_o withal_o i_o say_v that_o those_o thing_n so_o reserve_v and_o the_o truth_n so_o teach_v be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o manifest_a explication_n of_o the_o self_n same_o verity_n which_o they_o in_o brief_a before_o have_v hear_v for_o the_o holy_a ghost_n do_v coin_v no_o new_a doctrine_n nor_o reveal_v any_o new_a article_n of_o faith_n but_o only_o teach_v the_o apostle_n the_o true_a sense_n of_o christ_n word_n which_o afore_o for_o their_o dulness_n they_o be_v not_o able_a to_o perceive_v which_o sense_n they_o be_v direct_v by_o the_o instinct_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n deliver_v to_o the_o whole_a world_n first_o by_o word_n and_o afterward_o by_o write_v this_o my_o answer_n thus_o explicate_v i_o prove_v by_o two_o evident_a demonstration_n first_o because_o christ_n himself_o do_v 16._o so_o expound_v himself_o in_o these_o word_n follow_v he_o shall_v teach_v you_o all_o thing_n and_o bring_v all_o thing_n to_o your_o remembrance_n which_o i_o have_v tell_v you_o which_o assertion_n must_v be_v declare_v well_o note_v because_o the_o latter_a word_n be_v a_o plain_a declaration_n of_o the_o former_a as_o if_o christ_n have_v say_v all_o thing_n which_o the_o holy_a ghost_n shall_v teach_v the_o apostle_n after_o my_o departure_n be_v no_o new_a doctrine_n but_o the_o very_a same_o thing_n which_o they_o hear_v afore_o of_o i_o this_o only_a difference_n there_o be_v y●_z the_o apostle_n do_v more_o plain_o understand_v they_o by_o the_o assistance_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n second_o because_o the_o best_a learned_a popish_a doctor_n do_v constant_o de●end_v the_o same_o doctrine_n and_o this_o my_o exposition_n for_o y●_z famous_a schooleman_n and_o great_a learned_a popish_a bishop_n melchior_n canus_n have_v these_o express_a word_n nec_fw-la ullas_fw-la in_o fide_fw-la no●as_fw-la revelationes_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la habet_fw-la for_o the_o church_n have_v no_o new_a revelation_n 101._o in_o matter_n of_o faith_n thus_o teach_v christ_n himself_o and_o thus_o their_o ●●i●e_n learned_a bishop_n affirm_v and_o yet_o will_v the_o papist_n porfor●e_v compel_v we_o daily_o to_o admit_v new_a doctrine_n from_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n the_o second_o reply_n theoph._n christ_n promise_v the_o continuance_n of_o the_o holy_a 16._o ghost_n even_o after_o the_o death_n of_o the_o apostle_n ergo_fw-la he_o mean_v of_o their_o successor_n aswell_o as_o of_o themselves_o remig._n i_o answer_v that_o christ_n promise_v the_o presence_n of_o ●0_n the_o holy_a ghost_n here_o as_o he_o do_v afore_o his_o own_o presence_n to_o the_o world_n end_n and_o so_o one_o and_o the_o same_o answer_n may_v fit_o serve_v to_o both_o to_o wit_n that_o the_o holy_a ghost_n be_v promise_v to_o the_o whole_a congregation_n of_o the_o faithful_a the_o doctor_n of_o paris_n be_v all_o of_o the_o same_o opinion_n the_o three_o reply_n theoph._n christ_n command_v the_o people_n to_o do_v whatsoeever_o 3._o the_o scribe_n and_o pharisee_n will_v they_o to_o observe_v and_o this_o he_o do_v for_o this_o respect_n only_o because_o the_o scribe_n and_o pharisee_n sit_v in_o moses_n chair_n but_o doubtless_o if_o they_o sit_v in_o moses_n chair_n can_v have_v err_v christ_n will_v never_o have_v command_v his_o disciple_n and_o the_o people_n so_o strict_o to_o observe_v their_o doctrine_n and_o none_o will_v or_o can_v deny_v that_o to_o sit_v in_o peter_n chair_n have_v as_o great_a prerogative_n every_o way_n as_o to_o sit_v in_o moses_n chair_n ergo_fw-la the_o pope_n that_o now_o sit_v in_o peter_n chair_n at_o rome_n can_v never_o teach_v false_a doctrine_n remig._n i_o answer_v first_o by_o the_o pope_n own_o decree_n in_o sacerdotes_fw-la these_o express_a word_n multi_fw-la sacerdotes_fw-la &_o pauci_fw-la sacerdotes_fw-la multi_fw-la in_o nomine_fw-la &_o pauci_fw-la in_o opere_fw-la videte_fw-la ergo_fw-la fratres_fw-la quomodo_fw-la sedetis_fw-la super_fw-la cathedram_fw-la quia_fw-la non_fw-la cathedra_fw-la facit_fw-la sacerdotem_fw-la sed_fw-la sacerdos_n cathedram_fw-la non_fw-la locus_fw-la sanctificat_fw-la hominem_fw-la sed_fw-la homo_fw-la sanctificat_fw-la locum_fw-la non_fw-la omnis_fw-la sacerdos_n sanctus_fw-la sed_fw-la omnis_fw-la sanctus_fw-la est_fw-la sacerdos_n qui_fw-la bene_fw-la sederit_fw-la super_fw-la cathedram_fw-la honorem_fw-la accipit_fw-la cathedrae_fw-la qui_fw-la malè_fw-la sederit_fw-la iniuriam_fw-la facit_fw-la cathedrae_fw-la many_o priest_n and_o few_o priest_n many_o in_o name_n &_o few_o in_o work_n therefore_o my_o brethren_n beware_v how_o you_o sit_v upon_o the_o chair_n for_o not_o the_o chair_n make_v the_o priest_n but_o the_o priest_n make_v the_o chair_n the_o place_n do_v not_o sanctify_v the_o man_n but_o the_o man_n sanctify_v the_o place_n every_o 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romish_a cardinal_n and_o bishop_n be_v right_o order_v and_o whether_o they_o be_v mere_a layman_n or_o priest_n the_o other_o that_o the_o cardinal_n popish_a priest_n and_o lay_v people_n of_o rome_n do_v for_o many_o year_n commit_v flat_a idolatry_n theoph._n these_o point_n can_v i_o never_o have_v consider_v in_o his_o doctrine_n god_n reward_v your_o pain_n employ_v for_o his_o sake_n but_o what_o be_v not_o the_o cardinal_n and_o priest_n in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n true_o and_o lawful_o consecrate_v in_o their_o function_n remig._n i_o speak_v not_o general_o and_o absolute_o of_o the_o consecration_n of_o the_o cardinal_n bishop_n and_o priest_n in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n fit_a occasion_n will_v be_v offer_v hereafter_o to_o speak_v more_o precise_o of_o that_o point_n of_o doctrine_n the_o question_n be_v now_o of_o those_o particular_a cardinal_n bishop_n and_o priest_n who_o be_v consecrate_v for_o such_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o woman-pope_n john_n for_o 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handle_v the_o holy_a mystery_n s._n hierome_n in_o like_a manner_n say_v of_o hilarius_n the_o heretic_n that_o luciser_n he_o can_v neither_o baptize_v nor_o administer_v the_o eucharist_n because_o he_o be_v but_o a_o deacon_n when_o he_o go_v out_o of_o the_o church_n and_o what_o be_v you_o but_o deacon_n nay_o what_o be_v you_o but_o mere_a layman_n for_o you_o be_v neither_o consecrate_v after_o the_o old_a manner_n nor_o confirm_v by_o the_o pope_n as_o the_o jesuit_n bear_v the_o world_n in_o hand_n remig._n i_o answer_v first_o that_o if_o mere_a layman_n shall_v presume_v in_o our_o church_n either_o to_o preach_v teach_v or_o handle_v the_o holy_a mystery_n they_o can_v not_o escape_v condign_a punishment_n according_a to_o their_o demerit_n second_o 5._o that_o the_o want_n of_o your_o grease_n and_o other_o beggarly_a ceremony_n wherewith_o the_o primitive_a church_n be_v never_o acquaint_v as_o holy_a writ_n teach_v we_o can_v make_v the_o consecration_n of_o our_o 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