Selected quad for the lemma: world_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
world_n	church_n	prove_v	visible_a	2,396	5	9.1564	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85036	Truth maintained, or Positions delivered in a sermon at the Savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. By Thomas Fuller, B.D. late of Sidney Colledge in Cambridge. The particulars are these. I That the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers. II That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations. III How farre private Christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation. IIII What parts therein are only to be acted by the Supreme power. V Of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience. VI That no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from God, on men in these dayes. VII That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever. VIII What advantage the Fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them. IX That no new light, or new essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age. X That the doctrine of the Churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. With severall letters, to cleare the occasion of this book.	Fuller, Thomas, 1608-1661.; Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647. Examinations. Selections.; Fuller, Thomas, 1680-1661. Sermon of reformation. Selections.	1643 (1643)	Wing F2474; Thomason .36[9]; ESTC R23497	61,984	103

prospect opens then into new discoveries if you see no perfect reformation as you stand do not therefore say there is none they that stand higher and on a holyer mountaine perhapps see farther you that stand in the Horizon G of Prelacy cannot see much beyond it Corruption is deceitfull and makes us like Adam see all Generations in our selves because we will not be pefectly reformed let us not argue our Iudgments into a beleeife that we cannot ● let us think it as possible to be the best as easie to be the worst Let us not thinke that a Plato's Common wealth or a Mor'es Vtopia which for ought we know is reall and existent there is under the Gospell I a royall Preisthood an holy nation a peculier People and certainly had former K ages lived to see but the discovery of latter times they would have admired their owne ignorance and our happinesse TREATIS F. They that stand higher and on a holyer mountaine perhapp's see further I deny it not But if they see a perfect Church on earth they see it in a trance or vision G. You that stand in the Horizon of Prelacy cannot see much beyond it Misse not the matter to h●tt my person if I stand in the Horizon of Prelacy I stand no more for it then it stands with Gods glory and will in his word Because you taxe me with dimnesse of sight I will strive by my study to get the best advantage ground I can I will begg of God to animate mine eyes with his * eye salve I will be carefull to keepe mine eyes from being bloodshot by animating any to cruelty in this unnaturall Warr And know Sir that they who stand in the Horizon of Presbutary or Independency are subject also to Errors and mistakes As delight in old Customes may deceive some so desire of Novelty may blind the eyes of others God helpe us all we are badd at the best H. Because we will not be perfectly reformed let us not argue our Iudgments into a beleife that we cannot A distinction or two of perfection and your fallacy will perfectly appeare Some Saints in the Scripture phrase are stiled perfect but then it is Comparatively as they stand in opposition to * wicked men who have no goodnesse at all in them Or else they are called perfect as so denominated from their better part good reason the best Godfather should name the Child their regenerate halfe which desires and delights in endeavoring towards perfection or lastly perfection is taken for integrity sincerity and unrightnesse opposite to inward hippocrisie and in such a perfection the Heart may have many defects by the by but no dissimulation in the maine service of God Such a perfection as this men may have yea must have in this life and without such a perfection here no hope of any happinesse hereafter But as for an exact● legall perfection such as some Papists dreame of and most Anabaptists doate on a perfection able to stand before Gods Iustice without the support of his mercy it is utterly impossible for mortall men to attaine unto it In which sence in my Sermon I said that a Perfect reformation of a Church in this world is difficult to be prescribed and impossible to be practised Yea let me tell you Sir cautious comming from goodwill deserve to be heard if not heeded if you persist in this opinion of exact perfection I conceive your condition dangerous Elisha told King Ioram Beware that thou passe not * such a place for thither the Aramites are come downe I may friendly tell you presse not one any further in this point for spirituall pride lyeth hard by in waite and the ambush thereof will surprise you For my owne part as I hate my badnesse so I hugge the confession that I am badd And Gods children finde both contentment and comfort in knowing they cannot bee perfect Hence they learne what soule so bad which hath not sometimes some holy-day thoughts to loath earth to love Heaven to runne from themselves to fly to their Saviour to pittie others to pray heartily for them to hope comfortably of them in a word this doctine abateth pride increaseth charity and confoundeth censuring Yea I solemnely professe that I would not herein change my doctrine for yours to have much to boote Should I say that I could be perfect both my head and my heart would give my tongue the lye And one of the best hopes I have to goe to Heaven is that I am sute I deserve Hell I remember a strange but true and memerable speech of Reverend Mr. Fox * to this effect that his Graces sometimes did him harme whilst his sinne did him much good A wonderfull thing yet sometimes so it commthe to passe God making a cordiall for us of our owne wickednesse thereby teaching us humility I. There is under the Gospel a Royall Priesthood an holy Nation a peculiar people True Here these things are sincerely begunne and hereafter fully perfected for in this life there is still some basenesse even in the royall priesthood impiety in the holy Nation commonnesse in the Peculiar people And I pray remember you are to prove that a whole Church may bee perfectly reformed in this world For though it were granted that some men might be perfect yet it followeth not thereupon that any one Church is existent on Earth consisting intirely all of perfect members Hipocrites are of so glutenous a nature they will stick close in every visible Church They cannot be devided who cannot be discerned except one could borrow Gods touchstone of hearts such shining drosse will ever passe current in this Kingdome of Grace K. Had former ages lived but to see the discovery of latter times If by former ages you meane the time of Popery I concurre with you If you understand the times of the Primitivs Fathers I suspend my suffrage till the next paragrave But if you extend it to the age of Christ and his Apostles I flatly discent Nor am I sensible of any such late discoveries in Religion though many Recoveries thanks he to God there have been in rescuing the faith from Romish superstition L. They would have admired their owne ignorance and our happinesse By our Happinesse I suppos● you meane what lately we had before this Warre began and what we had not the happinesse to keepe and wee trust in due time God will restore to us againe Otherwise as for our present woefull condition I would not wish our friends or envie our foes such happinesse SERMON Paragarffe 32. There are some now adayes talke of a great light mainfested in this age more then before Indeede we modernes have a mighty advantage of the antients whatsoever was theirs by industry may be ours all contribute themselves to us who live in this latter age EXAMINER If we had no more light then what you insinuate were seene from the Fathers why doe we see more and more cleerely and further

Ceremonies and no wonder if there be it would be a miracle if there were not Besides there be some Innovations rather in the Church then of the Church as not chargeable on the publike Account but on private mens scores who are old enough let them answer for themselves EXAMINER These are but subtill W Apologies and distinctions for the X superstitions in the Church and to take off the eyes of the Reformers and entertaine them into changeable discourses as if they were faults and no faults and those that were were irreformable and could not be made better And thus while the errours of our Church should call them to reforme your difficulties Y and impossibilities would call them off You say it were a Miracle to have none This is such Sophistry as the malignity of your Clergy would cast in the way of our Reformation And for the A Innovations they have beene made by your most learned the immediate issues of our Church our Rubrick and practise have beene called to witnesse it therefore goe not on to perswade such a B Fundamentall Integrity and Essentiall Purity You know in what a case that C Church was when she thought her selfe rich and full and glorious He is no lesse an enemy to the Patient then to the Physitian that would perswade him that all is well or at the lest incurable TREATISE W. These are but subtill Apologies Truly no such matter they are even plaine and downeright confessions from the simplicity of my heart X. For the superstitions in the Church Sir lay not your Enditement higher then you are sure your proof will reach You might have done well to have insisted on some particulars whilst now your generals accuse much convict nothing Y. Your difficulties and impossibilities would call them off Not so for to shew wise Reformers the true difficulties of their worke will quicken not quench their endeavours Thus the Carpenter being truly told that the wood is hard he is to hew will therefore not throw away his Axe but strike with the greater force And that the Doctrine of the impossibility of a Churches perfect Reformation on with well understood is no hinderer to mens Labours to Reforme hath been largely proved before Z. You say it were a Miracle for a Church to have no fa●lt● This is such sophistry as the Malignity of your Clergy would cast in the way of our Reformation This sophistry will at last prove good Logick and whatsoever you pretend of Malignity this is a truth to be confided in Namely That no Church in this world can be so compleat but it will have faults For the Church being a body consisting of imperfect men the Members thereof the body must needs be imperfect also This appeares by the constant necessity of Preaching which otherwise might well be spared and all our Sermons turned into Psalmes as also by the power of the Keyes which will never rust in the Church for want of imployment Yea that Petition in the Prayer of Christs p●oviding for us and forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive them that Trespasse against us were both needlesse and false if men might be perfect in this world This perchance is the reason why the Perfection-mongers of this Age quarrell with this Prayer as having too much pride to confesse their owne faults and too little Charity to forgive other mens so ill doth a Publicans prayer fit a Pharisees mouth A. As for Innovations they have beene made by your most learned Concerning Innovations I must inlarge my selfe In mixt Actions wherein good and bad are blended together we can neither chuse nor refuse all but may pick out some and must leave the rest First they may better be tearmed Renovations then Innovations as lately not new forged but new furbished Secondly they were not so many as some complaine The suspitious old man cryes out in the Comedy that 600. ●ooks were set into his house when they were but two Jealousie hath her hyperboles as well as her flattery Thirdly some of these Innovations may easier be rayled on then justly reproved namely such as concerned the adorning of Churches and the comlinesse of mens behaviour in Gods service where outward decency if not garish costly above the Estates of the parish mimicall affected or superstitious is the Harbinger to provide the lodging for inward holinesse For some bodily distance brings our souls the neerer to God with whom some have such clownish familiarity they have the lesse friendship Fourthly if these gave offence it was not for any thing in themselves but either because First they were challenged to be brought in without law This often makes good matters to be ill relished honest men if wise withall being loath to pay their obedience before it becomes legally due Secondly because they seemed new and unusuall and we know how in dangerous times every well-meaning stranger may be suspected for a spy till he hath given an account of himselfe Now few daughter-Churches had seen such Ceremonies though some of their Mother-Cathedrals could well remember them Thirdly because they were multiplied without any set number and those Ceremonies which men saw were indefinit they feared would be infinit Fourthly because they were pressed in some places without moderation And herein some young men I will not say ran without sending but ran further then they were sent outstripping them who first taught them to goe Fifthly because they were pressed by men some of whose persons were otherwise much distasted how justly let them seek who are concerned Lastly because men complained that painfull Preaching and pious living the life of Gods service were not pressed and practised with equall earnestnesse as outward decency the lustre thereof whence their feares inferred that the shaddowes would devoure the Substance Now whereas you say that these Innovations have been made by our most learned herein I must confesse that the scales of my skill are too little in them to weigh the learning of great Schollers and to conclude who have the most But this I know that alwayes a distinction hath been made and admitted betwixt the opinions and practise of the most eminent particular Doctors how great soever in place power or parts and the Resolutions and Commands of the Church in generall In which respect what hitherto you alleadge to the contrary doth no whit disprove my words that such Innovations are rather in the Church then of the Church by which they were never abso●utely enjoyned nor generally received as alwayes disclaimed by many and lately disesed by most Such indeed as used them out of Conscience I should have no Conscience to think otherwise of some are not to be blamed if they privately practise them still at their own perill till their judgements are otherwise informed Such as took them up for fashion sake for fashion sake have since laid them downe Such as were frighted into them desist now their feare is removed Lastly those who used them in hope of

Truth Maintained Or POSITIONS DELIVERED in a Sermon at the SAVOY Since Traduced For DANGEROVS Now Asserted For SOVND and SAFE By THOMAS FVLLER B. D. late of Sidney Colledge in Cambridge The Particulars are These I That the Doctrine of the Impossibility of a Churches perfection in this world being wel understood begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers II That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations III How farre private Christians Ministers and subordinate Magistrates are to concurre to the advancing of a Publique Reformation IIII What parts therein are only to be acted by the Supreme power V Of the progresse and praise of passive obedience VI That no extraordinary Excitations Incitations or Inspirations are bestowed from God on men in these dayes VII That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist or to any men whatsoever VIII What advantage the Fathers had of us in learning and religion and what we have of them IX That no new light or new essentiall truths are or can be revealed in this age X That the doctrine of the Churches imperfection may safely be preached and cannot honestly be concealed With severall Letters to cleare the occasion of this Book I will beare the wrath of the Lord because I have sinned against him untill he plead my cause and execute iudgement for me then will he bring me forth to the light and I shall see his righteousnesse Micah 7. 9. Printed at Oxford Anno Dom. 1643. TO THE Most Sacred and Reverend ASSEMBLY For the REFORMATION of the CHURCH now convened by the PARLIAMENT Most Sacred and Reverend Divines I Have but the thoughts of an Afternoone to spread before you for I Examined the same Pace that I read that if it were possible a Truth might overtake an Errour ere it goe too farre It is not a little Encouragement that I may sit like the Prophetesse under the Palme tree under such a Shade as your selves and what weakenesse soever may appeare in these my Assertions This ayring them under your Patronage will heale them For so they brought forth the sick into the streets that at least the shadow of Peter might touch some of them Thus have I suddenly set up my Candle for others to Light their Torch at and I hope you will pardon me if my Zeale to the Truth made me see Anothers faults sooner then mine Owne Your Servant in Christ Iesus Iohn Saltmarsh TO the Two most Famous VNIVERSITIES OF ENGLAND I Dare not give you such high Epithites as Master Saltmarsh bestoweth upon the Assembly to call you the MOST SACRED Be contented to be Stiled the Two most Famous Vniversities a Title which it is no Flattery to give you but Injury to deny you I have the Studies of some whole dayes to spread before you I am not ashamed to confesse so much but should be ashamed to present your learned Considerations with lesse And will rather runne the hazard of other mens Censure to have studied so long to no purpose then to be guilty to my selfe of so much disrespect to You as to offer to your Patronage what cost me but sleight studying Indeed I examined his Examinations of my Sermon with the same pace that I read them But I could not confute his Errors so speedily as I could discover them nor could I so soon make them appeare to others as they appeared to me and the Evidencing of his Faults did cost me some Paines whereof I hope I shall never have just Cause to Repent I am altogether out of hope that my Truth should quickly overtake his Error which had the Advantage of me both at the Starting and in the Speed And yet I beleeve what I want in the swiftnesse of my Feet I shall have in the Firmenesse of my footing And when I overtake it at last as I am sure I shall seeing untruths will Tire as being better at hand then at length I am confident by Gods Assistance it will get firme and quiet Possession in spight of opposition It is altogether Improper for mee to compare You being Two in number to the Palme Tree under which the Prophetesse Deborah sate But the Analogie will hold well if I should resemble You to the Two Olive Trees continually dropping oyle in the Presence of God And methinks Master Saltmarsh his Expression to the Assembly VNDER SVCH A SHADE AS YOVR SELVES making them in the Assembly but a Shadow and then what is the Shadow of a Shadow worth under which hee desireth to sit was but an undervaluing and diminutive expressing of their worth I honour you as You Deserve and Counting You a Real and Lasting Substance so I addresse my Respects unto you Humbly requesting you to be pleased to Patronize and defend this my defence the rather because what doctrines therein I deliver not long since I suckt from One of you and in this respect I beleive both Breasts give Milke alike And therefore as your Learning is most Able so your Goodnesse will bee willing to Protect the same not so much because I had them from you as because you had them from the Truth Some perchance may blame my Choice in Choosing You for my Protection who in these troublesome times are scarce able to defend your selves The Universities being now Degraded at least suspended from the degree of their former Honour And I wonder Men should now talke of an Extraordinary great Light when the two Eyes of our Land so you were ever accompted are almost put out However this short Interruption of your Happinesse will but adde the more to your Honour hereafter And here as it were Store of Pride for me to Counsell you so it were want of duty not to Comfort you Know the only Good Token of these Times is That they are so extreamely Bad they can never last long God give you a sanctified Impression of your Afflictions neither to sleight them nor sink under them and so forbearing to be longer troublesome to your more serious Employments resteth The meanest of your Sonnes or Nephewes Thomas Fuller TO THE LEARNED AND MY WORTHY GOOD FRIEND Master Charles Herle SIR WHen I read a Pamphlet of M. Saltmarsh written against me it something moved my Affections but nothing removed my Judgement But when I saw it recommended to the world with your Approbation in this manner Nihil invenio in hoc Libello cui Titulus Examinations or a discovery of some dangerous Positions delivered in a Sermon of Reformation Preached by Tho. Fuller B. D. quin utiliter imprimatur Charles Herle I must confesse it troubled me not a little suspecting either my Eyes or my Understanding that either I misread your Name or had mis-written something in my Sermon Wherefore fearing Partiality might blind me in mine Owne Book knowing that Eli was not the onely Indulgent Father to his owne Off-spring I imparted my Sermon to some whom you respect and they respect you Men

in that time to the darkening of the light of the truth let them know that such opposition only gave truth the opportunity to tryumph and the teeth of Error filled it the brighter Heresies In eodem seculo quo natae damnatae equos err●res patrum aetas tulit eos sustulit condemnig them in Synods and Councells And in this point to be an equall Empire betwixt the ancients and us we must consider that we live in the Later age and commonly bad humors which have visited the whole body do settle at last in the leggs and lowest parts with us Sects and Schismes do also abound and some Heresies first set a broach in the Primitive times now runne a Tilt with all their dredgs in our dayes Thus we see how the Fathers were both before and behind us for knowledge and wee therein both above and beneath them in severall respects See the wisdome and goodnesse of God how he hath sweely tempered things together So good that all have some so wise that none have all And how easie may this controvercy be accommodated whether ours or the Fathers light were the greatest where if the difference be but cleerly understood the parties are fully reconciled And now I conceive having answered you in grosse I need not apply my selfe to any perticulers of your examination EXAMINER The Gospel doth worke M and wind its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelation many propheticall truthes were sealed up and those not unsealed but successively and as our Generations after may have a Starre rising to them which we have not so we may have Beames N and Radiations and shootings which our fathers had not The Apostles O had not all their truths and light revealed at once some early some late some not till the holy Ghost was bestowed Revelations are graduall and the vaile is not taken off at once nor in one age We honour the Fathers as men in their Generations famous their light was glorious in its degree and quality but they had not all the degrees attainable they had a light for their owne times and we for ours and who cannot thinke that we are rising into that Age P wherein God shall powre his Spirit upon all flesh and wherein the light of the Moone shall be as the light of the Sunne and the light of the Sunne as the light of Seaven dayes TREATISE You hover in Generalls and seeme to me desirous that your Reader should understand more then you are willing to expresse my opinion breifly is this That no new Revelations or new infused light in essentiall points of Religion is bestowed on any now-adayes but that the same light hath in as plentifull a measure beene given to former ages especially to the age wherein the Apostles lived and when the faith was once delivered to the Saints and by them sett downe in the Scripture and that then so perfectly and compleatly that it needed not the accessions of any future Revelations I confesse that men by searching the Scripture that oyle will never leave increasing as long as more vessells be still brought and diligent prayer to God may and do arive daily at a clearer understanding of many places of Gods word which they had not before These words Thou art Peter and on this rock will I build my Church and that Place this is my body are now more truly and plainly understood then they were 200. yeares agoe when the Popes supremacy was as falsly founded on the former as transubstantiation was unjustly inferred from the latter However these were not Revelations of new truthes but reparations of ould For the prime primative Church received and embraced the same The Saints * in the time of Popery Sung as it were a new song a Song not new but renewed not new in it selfe but perchance to the hearers and such are many truthes which are preached in our age in the Protestant Church They that maintaine the contrary opinion of moderne revelations of new essentiall truths doe a three fold mischeife therein First they lay an aspertion of ignorance and imperfection of knowledge on the Apostles themselves and this is no lesse then Scandalum Magnatum Secondly they much unsettle men in matters of Religion and produce a constant inconstancy and scepticall hovering 〈◊〉 all oppinions and as the Athenians erected an Altar to the unknowne God so men must reserve a blancke in their soules therin to write truths as yet unknown when they shall be revealed Thus men will never know when their creede is ended and will daily waver in that truth which they have in possession whilst they waite for a clearer and firmer as yet in revertion Thirdly they fixe on the Scripture an imputation of imperfection and such as talke of new revelations of truth may well remember the passage in the Old Revelation * If any man shall add unto these things God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this booke And it seemes to mee all one in effect whether men peece the Scriptures with old Traditions or new Revelations and thus the Papist and Anabaptist are agreed like men in a circle going so farre from each other with their faces till their backes meete together And I professe I should sooner trust a tradition containing in it nothing crosse to the Scripture and comming to mee recommended from the primitive times and countenanced with the practise of the Church in all ages then a new upstart Revelation The best is wee have no neede to trust either whilst we have Gods word alone sufficient to relie on The result of all is this We have now a-dayes no new truths revealed but old ones either more fairely cleared or more firmely assented to no new Starres of Revelation arise in any hearts If any such doe burne and blaze there they are but commerts which will fade at last In a word this age is not happie with any new truths but guiltie of many old lyes Yea it rendereth it suspitious that some men are going about somewhat which they cannot justifie by the old knowne lawes of God because they beginne to broach preparative doctrines Introductorie of new revelations Distrusting as it seemes the Scripture the old Iudge as not for their turnes because they provide for an Appeale to an other Vmpirer and if those are justly accounted dangerous members in the Church who would bring in Innovations in Ceremonies then pretenders of new Revelations in Essentiall points of Doctrine are so much the greater offenders by how much Doctrine is more necessary and fundamentall in a Church then ceremonies But I will answer some passages in your Examination particularlie M. The Gospel doth worke and winde its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for Revelotions Distinguish we heare betwixt matters of fact and matters of faith Matters of fact being foretold in the Scripture are best understood when they are accomplished In which respect

{non-Roman} {non-Roman} the Ragione disacro Dominio He were no wise D nor faithfull Devine who would not preserve that secret E for holy advantages t' is Gods owne designe and his Apostles to hould out a perfection to us be perfect as your Heavenly Father And some pastors for the perfection of the Saints I commend Boden and Tacitus for their Politicall faithfulnesse they writt farre yet would not sunne the imperiall {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} nor make them Popular TREATISE B. But suppose this perfect Reformation were e. c. It seemes you suspect the strength of your outworkes that you so seasonably retire to your Castle Now at last condemni●g this doctrine not as false but unfitting to be preached C. Were among the {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} I thinke you would say {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} or otherwise Sir my learning will not extend to understand this your new greeke D. He were no wise and faithfull Devine So then you conclude me a foolish deceitful Minister I had rather you should call me so tentimes then my guiltie conscience should tell me so once for concealing of a necessary truth E. Who would not preserve that secret for holy advantages First the question is wheither or no it lay in my power if I would to keepe this Point secret What your people at Heslerton● in Yorkeshire are you best know in this Doctrine I was not the teacher but the remembrancer of my people at the Savoy from whom had I closely covered it with both my hands they would have seene it through all my fingers Besides what hope can one have to keepe it secret when as you say so great and glorious a light is shining now-a-dayes But if I could I ought not to suppresse it Let Popish tenents be shutt in a cloister and sicke opinions keepe their Chamber God never lighted this Truth for us to put it under a bushell it being alwaies seasonable to bee divulged and now dangerous to bee concealed These holy advantages I would not count them advantages were they not holy arise from Preaching this point First it awakens men from their Idle dreames of their conceited perfection of a Church here and too many I feare have made this common-wealth here woefully militant under pretence here to make the Church happily triumphant Secondly to teach all Christians Majestrates and Ministers most especially as industry so patience daily to doe and constantly to suffer no whitt disheartned in their endeavours to perfection Knowing though things bee badd after their best labours to amend them that this proceedes from the inevitable vanity to which the creature is subject Thirdly to weane men from this world making them to love and long for the time of the restitution of all things when this world as a watch out of tune shall not onely bee taken ass●nder and scoured but also have all the wheeles made new and then bee perfectly reformed Yea Sir let us try whether you or I proceeding on our contrary principles shall more effectually perswade a reformation you will tell the world that a perfect reformation in this life is attaineable even to the anticipating of Heaven heare and this you will presse with all your power and flowers of Retorick and all little enough to performe so unsavory an untruth Now see sit what mischeifes will follow hereupon 1. Because one falsehood requires more to support it you must call in other auxilliary falsities to defend this and so engage your selfe in a multitude of errors 2. Seeing sl●ghts and shifts can never last long your forgery will be detected 3. You are lyable to Heavens Pillorie to bee punnished for holy fraud 4. You will scarce be trusted afterwards though telling truth being once convicted and ever suspected of falshood As for those whom you have deceived unto the utmost of their endevours of Reformation on your false perswasion that the perfection thereof may bee had in this world though their labours therein bee very forward at the first yet soone will they wither and weaken with the graine in the Gospel that wanted Roote no Roote and a false Roote are the same in effect and Gods blessing cannot be expected on the deceitfull proceedings As for mee who have no cunning in such hunting but please my selfe with Iacob to bee a plaine man I would goe another way to worke and tell them the worst first that indeede it is vaine to expect a perfect reformation in this world However let them comfort themselves that wee serve such a Master who accepts of the will for the deede and knowes whereof we are made Hee remembreth that wee are but dust And therefore let us doe our best and strugle against our infirmities being confident that God in Christ will pardon what is amisse and reward what is good in us And I doubt not but such doctrine by Gods blessing will both take deeper impression in mens hearts and bring forth better fruits of amendment in their lives F. I commend Bodin and Tacitus for their politicall faithfulnesse they writt far yet would not Sun the imperiall {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} nor make them popular I confesse it to bee unfitting yea dangerous to impart misteries of State to private people for such Iewels are to bee lockt in a safe and sure Cabinet the bosoms of Politians Not so in necessary Points of Divinity for though every private man hath not a State to governe hee hath a soule to save and therefore must be partner in all wholsome doctrines Indeede in some cases Preachers may though not finally suppresse yet seasonably conceale or rather warily deferre the publishing of some points of Religion First when they are not of absolute concernement to salvation the Minister by his Christian discretion plainely foresees that all the good which rationally can bee expected to redound from Preaching such a Truth will not countervaile the ill which in probability will inevitably follow thereupon Or else when the Auditors are not capeable as yet of such difficult Doctrines Christ himselfe did fitt his Wines to his bottles powring in not what hee could give but they could take least otherwise hee should rather spill his liquor then fill his vessells Neither of these cases now alledged take place concerning the publishing of the Doctrine of the Impossibility of the Churches perfection in this world For we may by Gods blessing justly expect and promise to our selves and others much good and comfort from the preaching thereof as we have largely proved before Nor dare I so much to disparage the times we live in now it being above a hundred yeares since Luthers reformation as to count them to have age so much and Knowledge so litle as not yet to be capable with safety profit of so plaine true a Doctrine some shortly expect the day of Iudgment and sure then the world is already come to Age to understand Truths

except shee come not out of her Mynority till just shee be ready to die and to be dissolved G. Would not Sunne the Imperiall {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Godly secrets in Religion in some respects may be Sunn'd First that thereby they may be tryed all Truths have Eagles eyes whether or no they can behold and beare the Sunne Beames Secondly because our * Saviour hath said what I tell you in darknesse that speake in the light and what you heare in the Eare that preach you upon the House toppe Lastly that by proclaiming them the Godly may have an oppertunity to receive them and the wicked be rendred unexcusable for refusing them when such Truths are made generally knowne H. Nor make them popular I distinguish on the word Popular If it be taken as generally it is use having confined a word of generall acception in it selfe to an ill sence to Court the good will of people for any private or sinester end it is utterly unlawfull for Popularity which is necessary love in a Prince is unlawfull lust in a Subject who may not Court the Kings wife for to him a lone are the People married in a Politicke Relation All honest men therefore disclaime to make Truths Popular in this fence to impart them to the vulgar to gaine any vaine applause Yea consider herein whether you rather be not faultie in making the Imperiall {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to bee Popular who incite and incourage ordinary People to make a Publique Reformation But Truths in Divinity must be made Popular that is bee communicated to all people in true sinceritie for the saving of their Soules The * Apostle calleth it the Common salvation and therefore it must be preached to all in common our Sermons must aswell be ad Populum as ad clerum Otherwise such Monopolies are illegall and distructive to the State of the Church for any Ministers to engrosse any wholsome Doctrine to themselves and not imparte it to their Parish except in the cases afore mentioned EXAMINER Apology I have now done I will not say refuting but committing Errors I am afraid my hast at this time hath made me mend one fault only with another TREATISE I will not oppose yours but annex my owne conclusion If I should deny my owne many Imperfections my practise would confute what my Pen hath maintained Reader for the matter of what I have written I require thee in Gods name do me Iustice for the manner method or words thereof I request thee as I am a Man shew mee favour Thinke not the worse of the Truths for my sake but thinke the better of me for the Truths sake which I have defended And conceive me not to be of a brawling and controversiall disposition who do desire and will pray for an Agreement from my Soule so long as my speech shall serve me Yea if I should chance to be stricken dumbe I would with Zacharia make signes for table booke● and write the name of that which I desire above all earthly thing is PEACE God send it Amen FINIS Quid amplius praepotenti immortali Deo tribuimus si quod eius proprium est eripimus Bodin de Repub. l. 1 c. ult 2 Cor. 1. 17. 18. Acts 25. 16. 2 Sam. 3. 14. 1 Cor 7. 26. Gen. 31. 27. Gen. 31. 31. Luk. 8. 18. Acts 17. 11. Act. 20. 38. Acts 24. 5. Pro. 11. 15. Bodin de Repub. lib. 1. p 50. Iudg. 19. 29. 1 King 19. 14. Rev. 3 16. Mat. 11. 12. 1 King 13. 18. 2 Sam. 13. 19. Jude 9. 1 The Doctrine of the impossibility o● a Churches perfection in this world being well understood begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers Phil. 3. 13. Bishop Montague Franciscus Secta Clara 2. That the Church of England cannot justly be taxed with ●●perstitious innovations Pro 9. 13. A foolish woman is clamoro●● Ephe. 4. 31. wrath and anger and clamour 1 Thes. 4. 11. Study to be quiet Bucer in lib. d● Regno Christ● a 〈◊〉 perpetua● Ecclesia●um observation● ab ipsis iam Apostolis v●d mus visnm h●c esse spiritus Sancto ut inter Presbite●● quibus Ecclesiarum precuratis potissimum est comm●ss● unus Ecclesia● rum let us Sac●● Minis●●rii ●aram 〈◊〉 singularem eaque enra solicttudina cauctis prec●at alus qua de ca●sa Ep●scopi nomen huiusm●di summis Ecclesiarum Curatoribus est peculiaritur attributum Bucerus de regno Christi lib. 2. cap. 12. b M. Greenham in his grave Counsels in the word Atheisme pag. 3. c Q●am horrenaum illi faciunt divina Maiestati contumeliam qni Templa Domini habent pro De Ambulaer●is lucisque tam prophanis ut in illis quaevis impura prophana cum similibus suia garriant per●ractent Haec certa tanta est divini numinis Contemptio ut ea vel sola prid●m meriti sumus o●n no de Terra exterminari quidem suppliciis gravissimus multari Bucerus de r●gno Christi lib. 1. cap. 10. Nehem. 8. 1. 3 How far private Christians Ministers and subordinate Magistrates are to concur to the advancing of a publike Reformation 2 Sam. 20. 1. 4. What parts therein are onely to be acted by the supreame Power Mar. 5. 3. 2● 5. Of the progresse and praise of passive O●e●ence Est haec pontificiorum tess●ra crudelitas aliud est Protestantium symbol●m clementia Isti occidunt Hi occidunt Laurentius Humphreys in resp●n ad Epistolas Camp●ani Deut. 2. 5. 2 King 14. to Cro. 15. 19. Pro. 20 19. 24. 21. 26. 17. 20. 3. Exo. 21. 33. 34 6. That no extraordinary excitations incitations or inspirations are bestowed from God on men in these dayes Gen. 22. 2. Judg. 16. 30. Exod. 12. 36. This appeares because in the Prop●et he is stiled Governo●r of Judah Hag 1. 14. and that at the s●lf same time when Ezra came thither see Luthers Chronology in 40. millenarco Auscrenda Idola non potest quisquam iubere privatus Aug. cont. literos Utilium lib. 2. cap 92. Ezra 4. 24. Drusius in pentetuchen ex R. Aben-Ezrah Pro. 3. 32. Ps. 148. Q Rom. 13. 1 In publi●cos 〈◊〉 omn●●s 〈◊〉 T. rtullianus 2 King 9. 35. Mat. 5. 29. That it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the Papists or to any men whatsoever 1 Cor. 10. 32. 2 Cor. 6. 3. * 2. Sam. 11. 15. Gall 2. 11 * 1 King 18. 29. * Rev. 3. 18. * Sanctorum nonnulli perfecti dicuntur respectu mundanorum qui negligunt res divinas nec ingrediuntur unquam viam prosectionis Amb. Com. in Epist ad Phil. Cap. 3. * 2 King 6. 9. * Cited by Mr. Capel in his Booke of Temptation 8. What advantage the Fathers had of us in Learning and Religion and what wee heve of them * {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} 1 Cor. 11. 23. * Iudg. 2. 7● * Nos nani sumus stantes super humeros Gygantum Hol. cott. 9. No new light or new essentiall truths are or can be revealed in this age * Revel. 14 3. * Reve. 21. 18. * Dan. 12. 4. * 1 Sam. 25. 10 * Ioel 2. 28. Acts 2. 17. * Gal. 2. 11. * 2 Sam. 3● * Paragraffe 24. * 1 Dut. 28. 10. That the Doctrine of the Churches imperfection may safely bee preached and cannot honestly bee concealed * Math. 10. 26 * Iude. 3.