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world_n church_n prove_v visible_a 2,396 5 9.1564 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A08426 A true report of the disputation or rather priuate conference had in the Tower of London, with Ed. Campion Iesuite, the last of August. 1581. Set downe by the reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein. VVhereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite. Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie Nowell, Alexander, 1507?-1602.; Day, William, 1529-1596. aut; Fielde, John, d. 1588.; Fulke, William, 1538-1589. aut; Goad, Roger, 1538-1610. aut; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. aut; Walker, John, d. 1588. aut; Charke, William, d. 1617. aut 1583 (1583) STC 18744; ESTC S113389 169,017 230

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goad_n that_o be_v not_o to_o the_o point_n though_o some_o remain_v yet_o they_o be_v hide_v all_o be_v persecute_v and_o put_v to_o death_n that_o can_v be_v know_v or_o find_v campion_n the_o time_n of_o these_o persecution_n be_v even_o like_a to_o our_o time_n for_o then_o the_o christian_n be_v exile_v put_v to_o death_n drive_v into_o corner_n as_o the_o catholic_n be_v now_o and_o yet_o there_o remain_v enough_o etc._n etc._n and_o they_o be_v know_v goad_n sure_o you_o make_v evil_a and_o untrue_a conparison_n you_o have_v no_o such_o cause_n to_o complain_v of_o bloody_a persecution_n in_o the_o time_n religion_n of_o our_o gracious_a queen_n and_o do_v not_o well_o to_o compare_v her_o highness_n peaceable_a and_o mild_a government_n with_o those_o tyrannical_a persecution_n you_o may_v better_o liken_v your_o cruelty_n show_v in_o queen_n mary_n time_n to_o those_o example_n i_o have_v think_v to_o have_v find_v more_o modesty_n in_o you_o campion_n well_o let_v the_o 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and_o therefore_o you_o teach_v that_o no_o man_n can_v know_v a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n nor_o no_o man_n can_v know_v that_o he_o shall_v be_v save_v goad_n particular_a election_n be_v not_o so_o unknowen_a as_o you_o will_v make_v it_o for_o a_o man_n may_v have_v knowledge_n of_o his_o own_o election_n by_o undoubted_a testimony_n and_o see_v the_o sign_n of_o election_n in_o other_o fulke_n you_o say_v before_o that_o visibilitie_n be_v a_o inseparable_a quality_n of_o the_o church_n whereupon_o i_o reason_v thus_o if_o it_o be_v a_o inseparable_a quality_n it_o be_v a_o inseparable_a note_n argument_n but_o it_o be_v not_o a_o inseparable_a note_n ergo_fw-la not_o a_o inseparable_a quality_n campion_n i_o deny_v both_o the_o mayor_n and_o the_o minor_a both_o may_v be_v doubt_v of_o fulke_n i_o will_v prove_v both_o campion_n give_v i_o leave_v a_o note_n be_v more_o than_o a_o quality_n the_o quality_n be_v to_o go_v right_a to_o go_v the_o near_a and_o gain_v way_n the_o safe_a way_n a_o note_n be_v a_o mark_n that_o may_v be_v remove_v that_o teach_v to_o turn_v on_o the_o right_a hand_n or_o on_o the_o left_a by_o this_o cross_n or_o by_o that_o windmill_n or_o mark_n etc._n etc._n fulke_n i_o grant_v there_o be_v a_o difference_n between_o a_o note_n and_o a_o quality_n and_o you_o need_v not_o so_o many_o word_n to_o have_v show_v that_o but_o i_o speak_v of_o a_o inseparable_a note_n and_o a_o inseparable_a quality_n that_o quality_n which_o be_v inseparable_a be_v also_o a_o note_n must_v needs_o be_v a_o inseparable_a note_n also_o of_o that_o yourself_o have_v say_v that_o it_o be_v a_o essential_a quality_n i_o will_v prove_v the_o mayor_n whatsoever_o mark_n be_v of_o the_o essence_n or_o nature_n be_v inseparable_a the_o visiblenes_n be_v a_o mark_n which_o be_v of_o the_o essence_n and_o nature_n of_o the_o church_n therefore_o it_o be_v a_o inseparable_a mark_n campion_n it_o be_v a_o inseparable_a quality_n but_o not_o a_o inseparable_a note_n but_o after_o a_o sort_n for_o a_o quality_n must_v evermore_o stand_v but_o a_o mark_n may_v be_v take_v away_o fulke_n the_o question_n be_v whether_o it_o be_v a_o inseparable_a note_n of_o the_o church_n that_o can_v be_v take_v away_o campion_n i_o say_v it_o may_v be_v in_o a_o sense_n fulke_n i_o know_v not_o what_o sense_n you_o speak_v of_o but_o this_o be_v evident_a by_o your_o own_o confession_n the_o visiblenes_n of_o the_o church_n be_v a_o mark_n and_o it_o be_v of_o the_o nature_n ergo_fw-la it_o be_v inseparable_a so_o my_o mayor_n be_v plain_a campion_n prove_v your_o minor_n fulke_n there_o be_v a_o time_n when_o visiblenes_n be_v no_o note_n of_o the_o church_n ergo_fw-la it_o be_v not_o a_o inseparable_a note_n campion_n i_o deny_v the_o antecedent_n fulke_n there_o be_v a_o time_n when_o the_o church_n be_v only_o know_v by_o the_o scripture_n therefore_o there_o be_v a_o time_n when_o visiblenes_n be_v no_o note_n of_o the_o church_n campion_n i_o deny_v both_o the_o antecedent_n and_o the_o consequent_a fulke_n i_o will_v prove_v both_o and_o first_o the_o antecedent_n cam._n nay_o prove_v the_o consequent_a first_o &_o then_o the_o antecedent_n fulke_n why_o the_o other_o be_v first_o both_o in_o order_n and_o nature_n campion_n nay_o whensoever_o the_o consequent_a be_v deny_v you_o must_v straight_o prove_v the_o argument_n fulke_n that_o be_v if_o the_o consequent_a only_o be_v deny_v but_o see_v you_o deny_v both_o i_o will_v first_o prove_v that_o which_o in_o nature_n &_o order_n be_v first_o and_o afterward_o i_o will_v prove_v the_o other_o if_o it_o need_v it_o be_v but_o a_o sorry_a shift_n of_o you_o to_o decline_v from_o the_o point_n of_o the_o question_n chrysostome_n
faith_n be_v of_o thing_n that_o be_v not_o see_v you_o have_v grant_v many_o absurdity_n this_o day_n while_o you_o labour_v to_o defend_v that_o the_o church_n on_o earth_n be_v always_o visible_a and_o now_o the_o conclusion_n be_v worst_a of_o all_o that_o the_o visible_a church_n for_o which_o you_o be_v so_o earnest_a be_v prove_v to_o be_v no_o article_n of_o faith_n campion_n why_o may_v not_o a_o man_n see_v &_o yet_o believe_v peter_n see_v he_o who_o he_o believe_v say_v thou_o be_v christ_n the_o son_n of_o the_o live_a god_n etc._n etc._n fulke_n that_o which_o he_o see_v of_o christ_n be_v experimental_a knowledge_n but_o that_o which_o he_o confess_v christ_n to_o be_v the_o son_n of_o god_n be_v of_o faith_n and_o not_o of_o sense_n for_o flesh_n and_o blood_n reveal_v it_o not_o unto_o he_o but_o god_n from_o heaven_n that_o which_o peter_n see_v of_o christ_n with_o his_o bodily_a eye_n be_v see_v of_o many_o unbelieve_a jew_n and_o of_o judas_n the_o traitor_n but_o his_o confession_n which_o come_v of_o faith_n he_o have_v not_o by_o bodily_a sight_n but_o by_o divine_a revelation_n it_o be_v not_o of_o faith_n to_o see_v man_n which_o be_v the_o member_n of_o the_o church_n but_o to_o see_v they_o as_o they_o be_v member_n of_o the_o church_n that_o be_v of_o faith_n therefore_o that_o which_o be_v see_v of_o the_o church_n be_v not_o of_o faith_n camp_n why_o you_o say_v the_o church_n may_v be_v see_v by_o experimental_a faith_n as_o peter_n see_v christ_n and_o believe_v fulke_n when_o say_v i_o so_o campion_n even_o now_o when_o you_o speak_v of_o peter_n fulk_n i_o never_o think_v it_o much_o less_o do_v i_o speak_v it_o it_o be_v needful_a there_o shall_v be_v writing_n else_o i_o see_v you_o will_v outface_v the_o matter_n i_o say_v the_o clean_a contrary_n that_o which_o peter_n see_v of_o christ_n be_v experimental_a knowledge_n and_o not_o faith_n that_o which_o he_o believe_v and_o confess_v he_o see_v not_o even_o so_o i_o say_v that_o which_o we_o believe_v and_o confess_v in_o our_o creed_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n we_o neither_o do_v see_v neither_o can_v we_o see_v campion_n i_o can_v see_v the_o whole_a world_n though_o i_o can_v see_v it_o all_o at_o once_o so_o i_o can_v see_v the_o catholic_a church_n in_o her_o part_n although_o i_o can_v see_v it_o all_o at_o once_o or_o in_o one_o place_n fulke_n whatsoever_o you_o can_v see_v at_o several_a time_n and_o in_o several_a place_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n be_v no_o article_n of_o faith_n for_o that_o which_o we_o believe_v of_o the_o catholic_a church_n be_v not_o see_v at_o any_o time_n or_o in_o any_o place_n campion_n that_o be_v true_a fulke_n ergo_fw-la the_o whole_a catholic_a church_n and_o every_o part_n thereof_o as_o it_o be_v of_o faith_n be_v not_o visible_a here_o campion_n of_o himself_o break_v up_o campion_n shall_v we_o meet_v again_o it_o be_v to_o be_v consider_v of_o what_o question_n we_o shall_v talk_v here_o question_n be_v make_v what_o point_n they_o shall_v deal_v upon_o and_o be_v ask_v whether_o he_o will_v defend_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n to_o be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n he_o deny_v to_o meddle_v therein_o as_o be_v dangerous_a unless_o leave_n may_v be_v obtain_v of_o her_o majesty_n most_o honourable_a counsel_n then_o be_v demand_v whether_o he_o will_v deal_v with_o that_o question_n in_o the_o after_o noon_n whether_o the_o church_n may_v err_v he_o consent_v the_o company_n present_v agree_v thereunto_o and_o so_o the_o hour_n be_v appoint_v at_o two_o of_o the_o clock_n after_o dinner_n the_o replyer_n have_v no_o long_a time_n to_o provide_v their_o argument_n in_o the_o after_o noon_n ❧_o the_o question_n whether_o the_o visible_a church_n may_v err_v first_o because_o promise_n be_v make_v in_o the_o forenoon_n that_o those_o place_n which_o be_v omit_v shall_v be_v show_v d._n goad_n bring_v forth_o his_o place_n out_o of_o chrysostome_n upon_o math._n 5._o rursus_fw-la eos_fw-la per_fw-la ista_fw-la ad_fw-la bene_fw-la vivendum_fw-la ac_fw-la diligetiam_fw-la cohortatur_fw-la ostendens_fw-la ut_fw-la studeant_fw-la esse_fw-la soliciti_fw-la quasiante_fw-la omnium_fw-la oculos_fw-la constituti_fw-la &_o in_o medio_fw-la orbis_fw-la terrarum_fw-la theatro_fw-la nolite_fw-la inquit_fw-la aspicere_fw-la quia_fw-la in_o isto_fw-la nunc_fw-la residemus_fw-la loco_fw-la in_fw-la exigua_fw-la sumus_fw-la parte_fw-la certaminis_fw-la sic_fw-la enim_fw-la eritis_fw-la manifesti_fw-la cunctis_fw-la quemadmodum_fw-la civitas_fw-la in_o montis_fw-la vertice_fw-la collocata_fw-la vel_fw-la sicut_fw-la lucerna_fw-la in_o domo_fw-la super_fw-la candelabrum_fw-la relucens_fw-la again_o by_o these_o thing_n he_o exhort_v they_o by_o diligence_n of_o well_o live_v that_o they_o may_v stand_v to_o be_v careful_a as_o they_o that_o be_v set_v before_o all_o man_n eye_n and_o in_o the_o midst_n of_o the_o theatre_n of_o the_o whole_a world_n do_v not_o you_o regard_v say_v he_o that_o we_o remain_v now_o in_o this_o place_n and_o be_v but_o in_o a_o small_a part_n of_o our_o battle_n for_o you_o shall_v be_v so_o manifest_a to_o all_o man_n as_o a_o city_n place_v upon_o the_o top_n of_o a_o hill_n or_o as_o a_o candle_n shine_v in_o a_o house_n upon_o a_o candlestick_n etc._n etc._n here_o you_o see_v by_o the_o judgement_n of_o chrysostome_n expound_v the_o place_n that_o it_o only_o respect_v the_o apostle_n which_o you_o deny_v to_o day_n for_o he_o exhort_v they_o to_o live_v well_o as_o those_o that_o be_v set_v in_o the_o sight_n and_o eye_n of_o all_o and_o therefore_o must_v be_v careful_a how_o they_o bear_v themselves_o upon_o that_o open_a stage_n of_o the_o whole_a world_n be_v as_o a_o city_n upon_o a_o hill_n campion_n the_o place_n be_v nothing_o against_o i_o for_o it_o pertain_v to_o the_o whole_a church_n do_v chrysostome_n contrary_a any_o thing_n speak_v by_o i_o do_v not_o their_o function_n their_o faith_n and_o religion_n their_o place_n show_v that_o this_o be_v not_o speak_v only_o to_o they_o goad_n these_o be_v but_o word_n it_o be_v plain_a he_o note_v their_o doctrine_n by_o the_o salt_n and_o their_o conversation_n by_o the_o light_n campion_n he_o speak_v not_o any_o thing_n contrary_a to_o that_o which_o i_o have_v say_v goad_n yes_o you_o say_v the_o place_n mean_v the_o whole_a church_n to_o prove_v the_o visibilitie_n thereof_o as_o a_o city_n set_v upon_o a_o hill_n can_v not_o be_v hide_v whereas_o chrysostome_n interprete_v it_o of_o the_o ministry_n only_o as_o be_v manifest_a by_o the_o word_n salt_n &_o the_o whole_a drift_n of_o the_o place_n campion_n of_o all_o other_o first_o it_o belong_v to_o the_o prelate_n then_o to_o their_o flock_n as_o i_o have_v show_v you_o by_o the_o example_n of_o a_o master_n of_o a_o family_n goad_n it_o belong_v in_o deed_n to_o the_o flock_n also_o to_o live_v well_o but_o this_o place_n be_v not_o direct_v unto_o they_o it_o be_v absurd_a against_o the_o whole_a scope_n of_o the_o place_n to_o make_v a_o general_a conclusion_n from_o a_o particular_a from_o the_o apostle_n to_o the_o whole_a church_n campion_n the_o apostle_n be_v faithful_a they_o include_v the_o whole_a church_n as_o they_o be_v christian_n and_o not_o apostle_n goad_n why_o then_o that_o which_o be_v speak_v to_o the_o apostle_n be_v likewise_o speak_v to_o the_o church_n but_o it_o be_v say_v to_o the_o apostle_n drink_v you_o all_o of_o this_o ergo_fw-la to_o the_o whole_a church_n campion_n that_o be_v personal_a and_o in_o respect_n of_o their_o function_n he_o speak_v only_o in_o respect_n of_o those_o that_o be_v present_a but_o there_o be_v none_o present_a but_o the_o apostle_n like_o that_o which_o be_v say_v to_o the_o apostle_n go_v you_o and_o preach_v to_o all_o nation_n baptise_v etc._n etc._n do_v he_o therefore_o command_v the_o people_n also_o to_o preach_v and_o minister_v the_o sacrament_n goad_n the_o race_n be_v far_o unlike_a the_o receive_n of_o the_o sacrament_n belong_v to_o all_o christian_n they_o must_v all_o receive_v and_o though_o preach_v the_o word_n and_o minister_a in_o respect_n of_o the_o funetion_n be_v only_o appropriate_a to_o the_o apostle_n and_o minister_n yet_o the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n be_v common_a to_o all_o christian_n so_o by_o manifest_a difference_n it_o appear_v that_o the_o commandment_n go_v &_o preach_v be_v personal_a belong_v to_o one_o calling_n and_o the_o commandment_n commandment_n drink_v you_o all_o of_o this_o be_v general_a to_o all_o the_o faithful_a campion_n there_o be_v no_o place_n in_o the_o institution_n that_o command_v the_o common_a people_n to_o drink_v or_o not_o to_o drink_v goad_n the_o apostle_n the_o best_a interpreter_n of_o christ_n institution_n apply_v it_o to_o the_o whole_a church_n 1._o cor._n 11._o verse_n 23._o that_o