space of these fiue hundred yeres It ye can shew any fathers in the Church which were godly and denyed the Pope shew them Or will ye speake of a church which ye can shewe no members of such folly there is in a number of yee Pro. Answere you to a question of mine and I wil giue you an answere by and by to yours when saint Iohn sayth Reuelation 13. All the world followed the beast power was giuen him to make warre with the Saints and to ouercome them And againe when all both smal and great rich poore bonde frée were compelled to receiue a marke and none might buy sel but those which had the marke or name of the beast or the number of his name Tell me where was the true Church then whē this was fulfilled whether were al those condemned or not if they returned not by repentance which worshipped the beast or had his marke Saint Iohn sayth they were killed with the sword not a temporall sworde Where then shall we in these times séeke out the godly fathers but such as were persecuted by the beast Of these there be histories which shew in all times that there were some Pa. I may soone answere your question by shewing your great ignorance He sayth all the world worshipped the beast and you will needes haue it to be the Church is there no difference betweene these two You must proue such a generall falling away of the whole church and not of the world God hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world and therefore that can not fall away Did the beast which S. Iohn speaketh of cause all the Church to worship him If you can shew that then ye proue somewhat Pro. Here is a blind shift brought in to answere the question which I demand He sayth say you al the world you will haue it al the Church I do not say that any part of the Church did fall away if we vnderstand by the Church those which are the elect of God and the true members of Christs body for these can neuer be seduced to follow the beast Christ hath promised to be with these to the end of the world But when by the Church wee vnderstand all those companies which do professe Christ outwardly those may be seduced and fall from the truth being but the outward visible Church and these are here by S. Iohn called the world which thing is manifestly to be proued thus those nations people where the beast should reigne or which follow the beast are called the world now it is manifest that the beast being the same Antichrist which S. Paul setteth forth should reigne in the Church for he must sit in the Temple of God It is therefore also as manifest that the visible Church is called in that place the world The other nations of the world did not follow the beast But if any will be so wilfull peruerse as not to sée plainely by this that the beast shuld beare sway ouer the nations which were the visible church let thē further cōsider that S. Iohn doth plainly affirme that the beast should make war with the saints ouercome them If hee shall make war with the saints and ouercome them where shall he then raigne but in the visible Church the true saints of God shal not raign in the visible church outwardly for he shall outwardly ouercome them O wicked enemies and vpholders of the beast which because he hath for a time gotten the vpper hand in the Church ouer the saints would haue him continue so still for euer Pa. If a man should grant all that which you say that there should be a falling away in the church yet this is not likely that God would suffer the grea test part and almost all to perish For what a fewe haue those been which haue resisted the Pope in respect of those that haue ioyned with him Pro. This is a very foolish obiection especially to those which consider the state of Gods Church at all times in the world what a fewe were the séed of Abraham in respect of al other nations of the world whom God cast off many hundred yeeres what a few were they among the séede of Abraham which continued good in respect of those which did degenerate What a few were there in the Church when Christ came which were faithful it appeareth they were very fewe Pa. There be sundry things spoken by S. Paul concerning that Antichrist which should come and likewise by S. Iohn which cannot agree to the pope as for exāple the one doth say that the Lord shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth Where hath that been fulfilled in the pope the other sayth that Antichrist should continue but a short time he also setteth forth the time to be three daies and a halfe How absurdly then is this applyed to the Bishop of Rome which hath continued euer since the Apostles by succession Who is able to denie this I am afraid Antichrist if he be not yet come among you will come shortly for you are euen his forerunners Pro. Sundry things there are say you spoken by S. Paul and by S. Iohn concerning Antichrist which cannot agrée to the Pope And for example ye name two the one that it is said the Lord shal destroy him with the breath of his mouth the other that he should continue but a little while as namely thrée daies and an half These things agrée right wel to the Pope although this latter might séem to be otherwise for a thousand yeres if we respect it according to men is a long time but with the Lord it is but as yesterday Fiue or six hundred yeres by it selfe is somwhat but cōpared with eternity it is but a little so although we grant that it is almost a thousand yéeres since the Bishop of Rome was exalted so high yet it is but a while But say you the time is limitted thrée dayes an half is it possible that any man should reade the things vttered cōcerning Antichrist what he should doe and the same also set out by sounding of seuen Trumpets Reuela 16. in seuerall ages in which it is apparant he should continue that can bee so ignorant as to take it of common daies not euery day to containe many yeres are the wéekes in Daniel to be taken for seuen naturall dayes to the wéeke Daniel 9. when it is certaine that the seuen wéekes did containe almost fiue hundred yeres Ye are ouer foolish to make this cauil Where as ye say the Bishop of Rome hath continued euer since the time of the Apostles therefore it could not be vnderstood of him it is very true that there hath bin a succession of Bishops there euer since but yet not of such Bishops for sixe hundreth yeres after Christ were past before the Bishop of Rome was takē to be vniuersal Bishop and head of the
but doth cleaue to the word of truth and to those which imbrace the same although they be neuer so few If we condemne any thing but that which the Lord himselfe doth condemne and ouerthrow any orders but such as he telleth vs to be disorders although they haue had long continuance you might wel tearme vs schismatikes new fangled but seeing we do nothing but that which is warranted by his mouth your blasphemies are against him This corrupt age as you tearme it if God prosper his Gospell wil neuer cease vntill it haue pluckt downe the Romish monster Pa. By your owne words then they haue beene deceiued these fiue or sixe hundred yeares could all the world so damnably erre thus long or is it to bee thought that in all those yeares the most part or as you say almost all were cast away for they were alwayes very few in nūber which haue refused to obey the Church of Rome Pro. Within that compasse of time which I named as it is most euident by many ancient writers the most part of your abhominable abuses haue bene established yet ye cannot gather that all the world haue erred so long because we say your Romish Sinagogue hath for you neuer had any more indeede but a corner of the world vnder your Pope your dominion was only in Europe as for Asia and Affrica which refused to be of your faction they are far the greater regions as the countries of Grecia India Chaldea Egypt Ethiopia and a great number besides these Let a man reason with you thus either all these were deceiued or else you so that of necessity you shall be forced to confesse that God suffered so great multitudes to erre But what absurdity is there in that seeing the holy Scriptures do shew that of old God chose the seede of Abraham only to be his Church cast off the Gentiles to walke after the vanities of their owne hart these were a farre greater multitude then euer your Popish rout and three times as many hundred yeares as you they might alleage for the antiquity of their religion Might not these haue obiected against S. Paul and the rest of the Apostls what were all our forefathers for these thousands of yeares cast away they neuer heard of this new religion of Christ were there not a number of great wise men among them Shal we forsake all these and the faith which they haue taught vs in so many learned and excellent bookes and follow a few of you No doubt a great multitude of madde fooles such as you Papistes are did reiect and condemne the Gospell of Christ with that reason I say still therefore that hee is wise which sticketh fast to Gods word and not to the multitudes of men nor to the antiquity which they can alleadge Pa. It pleaseth you to tearme vs what ye list but it is no matter your words are no lawe I could aunswere you well enough but I perceiue it is but to small purpose a man were as good to hold his peace for let neuer so great reason be alleadged you are so blind that you do not vnderstand it Pro. Indeed you do but loose your labour if you thinke to perswade me vnto your mind your stuffe is ouer course to entice any wise man frō the truth Ye may seeme to old simple soules whose eyes ye haue put out to be excellent men and they will nod sooth your sayings when ye tell them this that of forefathers what a goodly world it was that your religion hath euer since Christ bin continued although indeed ye need not tell so great a lie to perswade them for it is euen enough to draw them wholy to say but this your father your grandfather and your great grandfather beleeued thus will not you doe as they did but shew your words once to a man although a simple man which hath but euen a little tasted hath but some smacke of Gods word and he will iudge them by and by to bee counterfeit and very bables so that they can moue none but children fooles And therfore seeing as the Apostle S. Peter saith 2. Pet. 2. Ye should beguile but vnstable soules and such as Saint Paule doth say are like children caried away with euery puft of vaine doctrine Ephes 4 all men are to be exhorted to grow and increase in vnderstanding of Gods holy will that they may bee able to espie such draffe and filthy dregges as you offer them not to be wholesome vnto the soule Pa. Then you are able to make a simple man to be so well lettered as you say by the spirite as to iudge in so high causes you that can do so much can be able to absolue me in a great doubt or else you shall shew your selfe to bee a very vaine man Tell me then how shall a man know whether he hath the spirite of God or not and when he beleeueth this doctrine or that doctrine and is perswaded that the spirite of God doth teach him how shall he be sure as you say that he hath the right spirite all sorts of heretickes doe perswade themselues that they haue the spirite May not a man be deceiued and suppose he hath the spirite of God when it is a spirite of errour Pro. Here is a great doubt and a meruellous hard question propounded how a man shall know whether he hath the spirit of God c. This is so hard a case that a man had neede to take long deliberation to make aunswere Well may this be one question and doubt in your religion and a matter so far beyond your reach that you do suppose an impossibility it doth manifestly declare that your acquaintance hath bene very litle or rather none at all with the spirit of God that ye neither know him nor yet can perceiue how he may be knowne Cā ye know fire from water or can ye know an Appletree from a Crabtrée Pa. Ye haue made a great speake What if I can know fire from water and a Crabtree from an Appletree Doth this reason follow because a man doth know these therefore hee may know the other Is your comparison equall These things wee see feele handle and taste the other we do not Ye must bring other maner of geare then this or els a man may craue leaue to laugh at ye Pro. I cannot let ye to laugh if it be your pleasure euen your belly full but yet it must be at your owne follie For the matter well waied and vnderstood peraduenture ye may shew your téeth but not laugh very heartilie Ye can know fire from water and why because the nature and working of the one is contrary to the other ye are able to know an Appletrée from a Crabtrée because ye taste of the fruite and they are the one swéete and the other sower Is there such a working qualitie in the creatures that they may thereby be knowne Is there such
Saint Iohn saith to all the Christians 1. Iohn 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God By your saying the people should not be able to trie them and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them Pa. What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter and how pretily ye can shift but I wil lay open your subtiltie To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached you alledge the saying of Christ My sheepe heare my voyce c. I pray ye Sir if a man should demand of you whether he meaneth that this shall be immediatly or not and whether when he saith they shal be all taught of God doth he exclude the ministery of men or not I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vtter his doctrine Ye will also say that although God teach yet he doth it by the ministery of men Then I answer that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope who is their great shepheard vnder Christ God doth teach them by him they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination of themselues they cannot iudge but they must doe it by him he must tell them which is the woolfe and which is the false Prophet they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit or which spirit is of God but as he doth direct them And for this cause we say still that ye haue not the true Catholike faith nor the scriptures on your side nor the true sense because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them Pro. All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate immediate But I pray ye Sir how doth this hang together the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men therefore the way to know it is by men God teacheth by men therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men or if it be so must this needs follow that the Pope his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed This is a strange thing Christ Iesus S. Paule S. Peter S. Iohn others do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them as you say is to hang vpon the Pope yet none of all these or any other hath so much as once noted it or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be safe in so extreame danger Pa. There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so for they taught them this thing or how can you tell they did not they might though it be not written is all written which they did teach Pro. Here is mighty strong geare this were able to set vp a Pope if he were thrown down to reuiue him againe if he were hanged No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell the people that the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē because there was no need so long as they liued this were somwhat if they had told only of the false teachers of their time but when they foretel the great dangers mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same this were very absurd Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus that he did know that after his departure there shold enter in grieuous wolues not sparing the flock there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things and draw disciples after thē yet he speaketh of no remedy but that which was banished in your Church namely careful diligēt teaching for he saith therfore watch be mindful c. S. Peter saith as there were in times past false prophets amōg the people so shal there be false teachers amōg you 2. Pet. 2. and afterward he sheweth this remedy not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire or successor but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes and by the Apostles of Christ Saint Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. little children it is the last houre ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come I say there are already many Antichristes in the world and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger but saith he you haue receiued an annointing what from the Pope or his greasie oyle no but from the holy one and know all things Againe ye neede not saith he that any man teach ye but as the annoynting do teach ye Christ Iesus foretelleth Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets and do such wonders that if it were possible euen the elect should be deceiued but that as his words do most plainely shew is vnpossible and why doth he say because I will leaue a vicar and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe not so but because God hath chosen them for he doth keepe them Iohn 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand He saith in another place Beware of false Prophetes which come vnto you in shéepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues and whereby shall men know them Math. 7. He sayeth by their fruits But how know we whether he did tell them so or not he might though it be not written alacke alacke Pa. I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cōmitted to writing but let that go it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue which haue denied the faith and despise the Catholike Church Pro. The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions which S. Peter did not put in writing but he hath whosoeuer doth not beleeue these hath denied the faith dispiseth the Catholike Church This is not your best way your best way is to stand to this that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God But I am content to let this go also and to returne to that which we had in hand and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine I will demaund a question or two at your hands Was there not a Church in the world before the cōming of Christ Pa. Who doth deny that the Iewes were the Church and people of God Pro. Then tell me further whether had they the word of God or not to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon Pa. They had the bookes of Moses they had the bookes of the Prophets they were bidden to heare them Pro. Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
to the worlds ende Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow so great and manifest truth Pro. It is indeed a certaine and sure thing that heretikes will lie and therefore you Papists whose Religion is a very hotch potch dunghill of all grosse heresies will not sticke at that But here is a great reason brought to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your side and not on ours The holy Fathers are like as all men may iudge to be on their side which succeede them which do most loue them honour them and commend them but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vs which ye accuse to deface their honor And therefore they be on your side and must néedes take you to be their speciall friends Indeede we confesse that you do giue that honour to the Saints which we deny them and therefore ye seeme to loue them more then we But when the matter cōmeth to the due triall euery man shall easily perceiue that it doth not therefore follow that they be on your side because it is no true loue nor right honor which ye giue vnto them nor such indeed as they can in any wise accept of for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone should be worshipped and haue all his whole honor reserued to himselfe how can they take it well at your hands when ye play the arrant théeues and most villanously robbe God to giue vnto them Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to see theeues spoyle other mens goods and to bring the same to them if not how should the blessed Virgin the holy Apostles other Saints of God count those sacrilegious wretches to be their friends which rob and spoyle God of his honor and thrust Christ from his office to bestow vpon them No those honor them which follow their steps in giuing all honor to God they loued and held the truth which was dearer to them then their liues and therefore are on their side which walke in the truth Moreouer your loue and honour which you giue and bestow vpon them is euen such as the wicked Apostates among the Iewes did bestow vpon the holy Prophets of God Thus Christ speaketh Woe be vnto you Scribes Pharisies Math. 23. ye Hypocrites because you build the Sepulchers of the Prophets garnish the Tombes of the righteous and ye say if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers we would not haue bene partakers with them in the bloud of the Prophets Will you say that these did loue the Prophets which did so much hate Christ did they honour the Prophets and dishonour Christ Euen such are you ye honor the holy Saints of old but if they were aliue on earth ye would murder them In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge concerning the Church of the Iewes ye require that I should shew some such thing in your Church What say ye to this 2. Thes 2. that S. Paule saith there should be a falling away the man of sinne should be set vp Reuel 13. And when Saint Iohn speaking of the same apostasie saith that all the world wondered and followed the beast And againe in the same Chapter he sayth that whosoeuer would not worship the Image of the beast they should be killed Reuel 13. and he caused all both small and great rich and poore bond and free to receiue a make in their right hand or in their forehead And that none might buy or sell but he which hath the marke or the name of the beast or the number of his name Ye wil not deny also but that which Saint Iohn speaketh of the woman persecuted by the Dragon Reuel 12. is meant of the Church for the place doth plainely interprete it selfe when he saith in the last verse of the Chapter That the Dragon was wrath and went and made warre against the remnant of her seede which keepe the commandements of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Behold how he sheweth there that this Church should be nourished in the wildernesse for a time times and halfe a time from the presence of the Dragon Where was then the visible Church Where was now dic ecclesiae tell the Church if ye will vnderstand it so fully Pa. Must those things needs be expounded against vs Can it not be taken but against the Church of Rome Pro. That Prophesie of S. Paule of the apostasie by the man of sinne and the description of the kingdome of Antichrist by S Iohn in the Reuelation cannot with any shew be turned vppon any other saue the Pope and his Cleargie But I will come vnto this thing more particularly afterward Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was so great decay of truth by Antichrist that a man could not alwayes see a visible gouernement of the Church séeing Antichrist was the head and al things were done at his will appointment Pa. You would make the world beleeue what you list but let them beleeue ye that will It is a like matter that God wold forsake the Church so many hundred yeares suffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to perish No no I would we were like them they were wiser then we are It is maruell that they should be so farre wide and no man to reproue them There is no wise man but he will take it to be the more surer way to cleaue to so many godly and wise forefathers and good Saints then to take part with a few scismatikes and new fangled rash heads which will not sticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders be they neuer so ancient Oh this corrupt age whither will it tend at the last Pro. What we go about or would make the world beléeue God himselfe is both witnesse and Iudge to him and to his holy truth we appeale It is not like that God would forsake his Church so many hundred yeares no hee neuer forsooke it one houre no not euen when it seemed to be quite destroyed and wasted by Antichrist He neuer suffered all our forefathers to be seduced and to perish neither did he euer suffer any one of our godly forefathers to perish he forsooke Antichrist and his brood as a den of theeues which forsooke him he forsooke all those which receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued and sent them strong delusions to beleeue lyes that so they might be damned as S. Paule setteth it forth 2. Thes 2. This was neither all the forefathers nor yet so many hundred yeres as you seeme to note for the most part of your Antichristian religion hath not as yet seene sixe hundred Sommers And in those times there were euer some which cried out of your corrupt doctrine and wicked maners He is the right wise man which doth not leaue to nor depend vpon the multitude of men
vnto Timothy and Titus 1. Tim. 3. Titus 1. those doth our religion allow and none else If any haue preached diligently and when they are once come to promotion haue giuen ouer it is plaine they sought themselues and not the Lord Iesus will ye lay the fault of such vngodly men vpon the doctrine Cease therefore not to bee a true Catholike which ye neuer were but an obstinate blinde heretike without true vnderstanding Pa. Better is a bad scuse then none at all Forsooth the doctrine must not bee blamed but the men but I pray ye for your Clergie why are those things maintained Are they vnknowne If not why are they borne Answere this and then ye say somewhat to the purpose Pro. When I haue answered it you shall gaine little For as I may most easily prooue that Gods word which is our religion doth allow no such ministerie so may I as easily shew that all this corruption in the ministerie came from you wée may rue the time that euer your corrupt lawes and orders in matters for the Ministerie tooke place in the worlde because the very Reliques of them are deadly wheresoeuer they remayne and doe poyson the Church of GOD the most filthie and cursed abominations in the liues of the Ministers and other abuses began among you Ye haue no cause to boast of the goodnesse of your Priests nor of their learning looke vpon those of them which at this day doe remaine in our Church not as standers but as poore rotten stakes in an hedge the people may here and there although twentie yeares and od haue greatlie wasted them sée how graue Diuines godly Prelates were among you As for the maintenance of such things among vs I say still we defie all such abuses we allow none other ministerie but such as S. Paul describeth If any man doe defend an vnlearned ministerie which is not able to guide the flocke of Christ or to build vp the temple of God or if any doe beare with vice in the ministers they doe follow Antichrist and not S. Paul they are then become enemies of Christ and fighters together with you against the Gospell destroyers and rooters vp of the Lords vineyard which is to be dressed and kept by expert and skilfull labourers You must learne therefore not to slander the most glorious Gospell nor to lay the blame of such things vpon it but for to finde the fault where it is Pa. I cannot denie but that in words ye doe seeme for to allow such as Saint Paul willeth they should be but when it commeth to the performance ye doe vtterly faile for hauing many learned men ye haue none godly all of them giuen ouer to some fowle vice or other as to be ambitious couetous worldlings idle bellies gluttons proud prelates vaine boasters or such like Pro. I perceiue your subtill craft well enough ye describe our learned men by these fowle vices when ye meane your popish clergie For from the top of yours euen to the bottome euen from the triple crowne vnto the bare footed frier al these vices and a great number more doe abound The Lord be blessed that in our Church and other Churches of his Gospell hath raised vp a great number whom he hath prepared and sanctified by his spirit which doe giue testimonie of their puritie both before GOD and men that they seeke not themselues nor the world but onely to build vp the Church of Christ As for other which are defiled with any of those crimes which you doe name I say still they bee not the workmen by whom God will build his house they bee rather fit to set vp the kingdome of Antichrist and although they should take vpon them with neuer so great profession to defend the truth yet because they professe godlinesse in word Titus 1. and haue denied the power thereof God doth not acknowledge them to be on his side neither will any godly man account them true professors Pa. VVill ye allow none to be of your side but such as bee free from those forenamed vices or such like Alas where is your Church become where shall a man finde a companie of those rare birds which you speake of take the people and their teachers together VVho are they among ye which are not accused in some such crime or other Pro. I say still that because God hath allowed none to bée his redéemed and chosen but those whom he doth also sanctifie we also doe allow none neither of the teachers nor of the people to bee the true friends of the Gospell but such as doe yéeld and shew their obedience thereunto and expresse the doctrine thereof in their conuersation How small soeuer the number of such séeme vnto your bleared eyes for to bée they are the true Church of GOD and moe in number farre then you could wish I know if all should be guiltie which are accused then your saying were true but when it is most euident that the more godly a man is the more he is subiect to false accusations and slanders euen as our Sauiour himselfe was and his Apostles and other most godly which succéeded them your reason is very weake when ye say all are accused for doth it by and by follow that all are guiltie I confesse that our Church if ye vnderstand the whole assemblie is full of all wicked vices but shall Gods word be blamed for that There are a number among vs which are of your broode whose euill life is séene well enough there are a very great nūber of méere worldlings which doe not greatly estéeme any religion although they seeme now because of lawes to allow and fauour our side yet in their hearts they rather cleaue vnto you which is euident by this that they can better away with the friendship and familiaritie of a ranke Papist then of a zealous godly protestant they will highly commend the one and deepely condemne the other Thus yee shall haue them speake such a man indéede I cannot praise him for his religion I let him alone for that he shall answere for himselfe I would he were of a better opinion but for his behauiour there is not a better man As for such and such I cannot tell what to make of them they are so holy and so precise that they haue forgotten all good fellowship Thus you and your fauourers among vs agréeing in a carnall and euill conuersation and filling all the land full of naughtinesse doe charge the Gospell and holy religion of God which doth most seuerely condemne and curse all such abuses I will not stand in particular reciting of those vices which you Papists do ioyne in and allow in our carnall protestāts it would be ouer long a man might make a long booke of that matter alone Pa. I confesse there be many which care not what religiō be so they may liue in wealth ease but what are those vices which we do ioyne with thē Ye
5. but sinners to repentance You say sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures we answere the more sinful the greater néed they haue to know the scriptures because they must reforme them and cure them other meanes for the sinners there are none Psal 119. Wherewithall saith the Prophet shall a young man clense his waies euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word Ye reason euen as handsomly as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred or if a man should be out of his way in the darke let him haue no light because he is out of his way Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men yée neither enter your selues neither do ye suffer those which would Let thousand thousands and millians of thousands deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it by peruerting it be puffed vp with their knowledge make but a pratling thereof yet this must not let but that if God had but ten chosen in the world his counsels must be opened vnto them Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it therefore you say it is to bee remoued théeues and quarrellers doe fight rob and kill with their weapons therefore the true men must cast them away Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures night and day but yet reuerently Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit Ephes 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell Doth not Christ our captaine giue vs example Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that in seeing they might not see I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh Were they not the great clarkes the Scribes and Pharisies which did see not perceiue heare and not vnderstand Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate both the learned and vnlearned As on the other side the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father saith Christ Lord of heauen and earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise prudent and hast opened them vnto babes Doe ye not sée in the Gospell how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell instruct the multitude Is it not testified that publicanes and sinners did imbrace the same whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes harlots should go before them into the kingdom of God Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures Doubtles the heathen men went all one way but it was no good way for it was to destruction euen so as many as did not as S. Paul saith receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued 2. Thess ◠God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies so they were damned These were not all our forefathers for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures whē as the learned doe not but are set one against an other one doth confute another ye should conclude of this that because learned men doe raise vp errors aswell as the vnlearned therefore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also and so ye should make sure worke Let God speake no more vnlesse he can do better let the Pope onely vtter his minde and heare him for he will tell a plaine tale Pa. This is euen like all your schismatikes and heretikes for all of ye doe allow errors quarrels and contentions Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them ye doe euen glorie in them as though there could be no trueth without them Oh say you it is a certaine and infallible proofe that ours is the true Gospell that so great troubles and sundrie sects do follow it Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine so that others need not to speake thereof Many other such like speeches ye vtter Pro. I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth then ye are like your father not the father of trueth but of lyes for let a man conuict ye a thousand times in your sayings yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder Where can ye euer shew that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors quarrels contentions Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow can ye gather thereof that we allow the same no we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell and his wicked instruments We count it a lamentable thing to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great that so soone as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare they bend all their might against it seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof and vtterly to banish it From hence doe spring all vprores and tumults in the Church We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gospell of Christ that the wicked world cannot abide it if it were of the world the world would loue his owne but because it is not of the world therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make doth rise vp against it for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur The strong man armed which kéepeth his house Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoyled When there shall be no diuell no wicked ones no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God whē Christ shall haue none enemies then the Gospell may come foorth in peace without troubles tumults sects errors and such like But so long as all those do remaine wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie because these things follow it nay why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious that it doth breake through all these things and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies When the Prophet foretolde that the stone which the builders refused Psal 110. was become the head of the corner he addeth Psal 118. this is the Lords doing and it is marueilous in our eyes So this is the Lords doing and it is most marueilous in our eyes that so many cruell persecutions doe follow the Gospell and yet cannot banish it so many heapes or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it to couer it to corrupt
he is God is there any other there which beareth this likenes Peraduēture ye wil say this was fulfilled in some of the Emperors which would be taken for God Yea sir but there was none of the wicked Emperors which did sit in the tēple of God Neither was there any of them which did seduce the world by lying wonders Wée must find such an one at Rome which is exalted aboue Kings Emperors which sitteth in the Temple of God seduceth by myracles But perhaps he shall arise at Rome hereafter and is not yet come Surely then let vs neuer looke for him if we think there shal arise one at Rome which shall bee lifted vp higher then the Pope or doe more fained myracles and lying wonders then he hath Moreouer tell me this is there any man so simple when he readeth the 17. chapter of the Reuelation Reuel 17. where the Angel doth shew the mistery of the woman which he calleth the great whore and of the beast which beareth her that wil not by by confesse that séeing Rome is that whore borne vp with the scarlet coloured beast with seuen heads the Pope also must néeds be Antichrist for he is one of the heads of the beast The heads of the beast being seuen are saith the Angel seuen Kings where should they reign At Rome Fiue saith he are fallen one is another is to come Seuen kinds of gouernmēts in Rome whereof it is wel knowen fiue were fallē before the time in which Iohn wrote One was thē standing which was the Empire And the seuenth or last should shortly follow Where is he that hath risen at Rome to be the seuenth last of these kings if it be not the Pope O ye foolish Papists haue ye come thus far as to cōfesse that Rome is Babylon which is the great whore so tel men where they must séek for Antichrist And wil ye denie the Pope to be the beast Why they be ioined together Shew vs some other vpon whō we may sée the brand which the scripture hath set vpon Antichrist We now by that which you haue granted and confessed must not looke for him elswhere but at Rome vntill ye can shew vs some other there we sée none so like him as the Popes holines If ye can shew any other put men out of doubt Pa. Doth the Scripture say that Antichrist should bee at that place which is called Babylon Where find ye any such thing It was called Babylon for the great wickednes of the citie not because Antichrist should reigne there Againe where yee take the interpretation of seuen heads to be seuen kings in Rome as you say seuen kinds of gouernment fiue were fallen one was which is the Empyre one was to come which say you must needs be the Pope for hee hath reigned in the last place Yea but ye sayd fiue were fallen to giue place to the sixt should not then the sixt also fall to giue place to the seuenth How then is your interpretation true seeing the Empire hath stood euer since Pro. Doth not S. Iohn in the Reuel set forth the same Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe which he calleth the beast which all the world should wonder after and worship Doth he not set forth the whore sitting vpon the beast Is not the whore by you confessed to be Rome will ye haue the beast to beare her and not to be at the same place the beast that riseth out of the bottomles pit and killeth the saints Reuel 11. Where shal their bodies lie in the stréets doth he not say in the stréets of the great citie which there he calleth Sodome and Egypt afterward in the seuentéenth chapt he calleth it the great citie which ruleth ouer the kings of the earth is it not all one beast which he speaketh of al one citie doth it not follow that where he shall kill there be shal raigne and as for the other thing which ye take exception against I confesse the Empire did still retaine the name and was not quite cast down neuertheles it was not indéede an empire when the Emperors themselues were brought downe so farre in subiection to the Pope as to haue him tread in their necke and to hold his stirrops Pa. If the Pope were Antichrist as you would make men beleeue then what became of the Church all that while when men beleeued in him when he raigned you confesse a thousand yeres or there about since the Bishop of Rome had the soueraignty Would God forsake his Church a thousand yeres or eight hundreth yeeres is it like that God which is so gracious and merciful would cast off all our forefathers thus many hundreth yeeres and suffer to perish O how hard harted are you how vnreuerently minded against our ancestors how vnkind children so to iudge of the fathers let them beleeue ye that will ye be al heretikes I will keepe me to the ancient faith Pro. Now ye returne to your old fortresse againe yee suppose that ye haue some of those poore soules in hand which yee may seduce because they are ignorant Ye can lay forth this matter so pitifully among them that ye can make them euen wéepe again But when ye come among such as haue vnderstanding out of Gods word and know the state of the Church they laugh at your follie This is a great question what became of that Church we answere as the scripture telleth vs Reue. 17. the beast the dragon did persecute murther the seruants of God The whore of Babylon was drunken with the blood of the saints Reuel 12. The Church was driuen into the wildernes God did neuer forsake his Church one day much lesse a thousand or 8. hundreth yéeres it doth not follow that because Antichrist was exalted in the church therefore the church was vtterly forsaken and destroied Although corruptions came into the church apace for the space of this 8. hundreth or a thousand yeres yet neuertheles the religion did remaine a more tolerable estate nothing so corrupted as within these 5. or 6. hundreth yeres which space we may indéed ascribe to the reign of Antichrist and yet euen in this space he could neuer vtterly destroy the Church for the most gracious God did preserue that litle remnant which was his and none did perish but those which loued not the trueth and therfore God did send them strong delusion to beleeue lies None but those which worshipped the beast and wondered after the beast and receiued the marke of the beast whose names were not written in the booke of life We reuerence our godly fathers shew no vnkindnesse towards them Pa. I will deale with ye then vpon your owne confession ye grant that for the space of fiue or sixe hundred yeeres the Pope hath reigned and the trueth suppressed Where was the Church for this space this is a long time will ye condemne all the world for the
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite