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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13774	The true copy of tvvo letters, with their seuerall answeres, contayning the late apostasie of the Earle of Lauall, after his returne from Italy VVherein the principall poynts in controuersie with the papists, are learnedly and fully confuted. By D. Tilenus. Faythfully translated by D.D.S.	Tilenus, Daniel, 1563-1633.; Coligny, Guy Paul de, 1555-1586, attributed name.; D. D. S.; Laval, Antoine de, 1550-1631, attributed name.	1605 (1605)	STC 24072; ESTC S118417	23,042	42

cut the knots then to loose them I say then that this purity is to be considered either in regard of the doctrine or good life and that both the one and the other is in the Church according to the condition and measure which is assigned to her during the space of her residence heere on the earth in the which estate as touching her head who is Iesus Christ she is euer pure but not altogether pure in herselfe for seeing euery member of the same is subiect to fayle as well in doctrine as in life and that wee knowe her heere but in part the body which is composed of these members cannot bee wholy pure and perfit and to consider the body of the Church without her members particular whereof shee is compound were as much as to transforme her into an Idea Platonica only the Prophets and Apostles by a vocation and speciall prerogatiue and by an assistance and helpe immediate extraordinary of the holy Spirit were exempt and free of all errour in the doctrine the which in this respect and by good reason is the true and onely rule of all purity and according as the Church drawes either neere or is far distant the measure of her purity increaseth or decreaseth and when she is called pure that is either in respect of her head or in regard of a part thereof which is receyued in the heauens which they call the Church Triumphant or rather in regard of the end shee aymes at in this world euen so as they call a house an edifice which is but yet in building and before it be complete and ended And like as the purity of the Church is subiect to alteration euen so is her forme or externall behauiour in respect whereof they call it visible for although she remayne euer visible in her selfe yet so is it that she is not alwayes visible to others especially to those that haue not the eyes which be requisite for the seeing of her as the Sunne it selfe is not to be seene by a blind man and the Almighty for the preseruing of her from her persecutors retyred her sometimes to the wildernesse to secret caues and dennes euen as he did withdraw his Sonne Christ Iesus into Egypt to preserue him from the rage of Herode And then shee became inuisible but not to God neyther to herselfe but only to the eyes and iudgement of the blind world I say then that the Church militant hath euer retained that measure of purity which the holy Ghost hath communicated to her not only since Caluins time but the Apostles dayes euen to vs present this day As also the sayd measure was much different diuers in sundry times places the which vndoubtedly did moue the ancient Fathers to compare the Church vnto the Moone which sheweth her selfe sometimes of more otherwhiles of lesse light as it were eclipsed and hides herselfe altogether as it were from the world without danger notwithstanding all this either to be lost or scattered as well appeared in the Church of Israel in the time of Ely the Prophet where there was a Church of seuen thousand that did not bow their knees to Baal which was not perceiued there externally If your pretended teachers shall not graunt vnto me that which heretofore is alledged I shall cause them by the authority of Bellarmine to deny the purity of their owne Romane Church and after this maner I will proue it The Church that may altogether bee compounded of vnfaithfull persons wicked and reprobates can haue neither puritie in her faith nor in her life But so it is that the church so described by Bellarmine may be wholy composed of such people therfore she can haue no kind of purity The Assumption is proued and made cleare in his booke of the Church in the last Paragraph where Bellarmine saith that is the definitiō of the Church according to the which some be of the body not of the soule thereof hauing no internall vertue and being as it were the haire the nayles and corrupt humours of the body of man and of such sort be the Infidels wicked and reprobates as Bellarmine himself expresseth them who may make external professiō of faith cōmunicate to the Sacraments subiect thēselues to the Pope which be the 3. essentiall conditiōs and only necessaries according to this Cardinall for to be in the Church By the same Authour I will argue againe after another maner That which may be destitute of fayth hope and charity cannot remaine in purity yea rather may lose all But the church according to Bellarmine may be voyd of al those qualities therfore she may lose al her purity But if any shall reply that Bellarmine adioynes that the sayd vertues are to bee found neuerthelesse in the Church I aske whether they be of the essence of the Church or not If the first wherfore sayes he in his definition that they be not necessary But if the second how can a Church without faith hope and charity bee thought pure Learne then sir by these two arguments as by two marks or rather ensignes the purity of the place where those people would lodge you neuertheles this is that Church which Cardinall Baronius maintaynes and defends to haue neither spot nor blemish Wheras ye write desire that the time may be shewed and marked in the which errours and vncleannes haue entred into the Church of Rome surely this discourse would prolong too much my letter which you desire me to make short would importune more by her prolixity then it should instruct you by her vtility more proper to a history then to doctrine Is it inough that a poore Hydropique should beleeue to be sicke to haue need of phisike when he is so swolne that he is almost in danger to burst although none can precisely mark shew him the houre when as his liuer began to be consumed Surely while as the fire is in the house the water within the ship the enemies within the town the Wolfe within the fold those that hope to preuent the danger or rather to preserue them be more aduised and circūspect then those that wil beleeue nothing vnlesse they shew them at what time how that is come to passe and who busies thēselues in searching the causes the beginnings we know that already in the daies of the Apostles the mystery of iniquity began to work it selfe which S. Paul foretold that after his departure there should enter rauenous wolues among the flocks in that night after the husbandman had sowne the good seed behold the enemy also did sow the Tares The Antichrist was not begotten in one day This Beare was not so soone licked and put in form as he of whom speaks Surius the Cardinall Baronius who of a wilde beast became a reasonable creature made himself also Frier in that same instant after he had prostrated himselfe before the relikes

as from a corrupt instrument I answere that my letter beareth not that it is necessary of right but that this was found wanting in our first pastors this was not any want but to acknowledge the fault to amend it our chiefe perfection consisting to acknowledge to correct our imperfectiōs seing we be neither Anabaptists who acknowledge not the Churche where there is a great notable want in maners neither Papist who maintaineth that their Church cannot erre in the faith an error or rather a receptacle couertour goulf of al the errors of the world which carry away with it not only the feeling of the disease but also the hope of their healing He that furnished to you this point should consider that in throwing it against the Church reformed he might verie well retorqueted against the Romane church in the which we finde the Popes thēselues to haue bene made by instrumēts very corrupt among others the Pope Simmachus was cōfirmed by King Theodorick who was an Arrian leauing to speake of those that were rather monsters then Byshops or men hath giuen the sending or calling to the whole race of their Hierarchie And as cōcerning the feminine Papesse Iane ye haue learned in your voyage that in Rome they holde not the whores there for corrupt instruments by the testimony of Cardinal Bellarmine the magistrates sin not in assignīg to them to haue a quarter within the Cittie for theyr dwelling albeit he knowe perfectly that they would abuse it to an euill purpose The Clergie of the holy citie not being so superstitious as were they of Grece in the time of Theodorus Studites who said that it was a dāgerous thing for the soul of a Frier to haue but one beast of the feminine kinde And to the second point of your Reply I say that wee avowe that there was sacrifices in the time of S. Cyprian that there shall be sacrifices to the consummation of the world But yet that concludes no thing for the Sacrifice of the Masse pretended reall propitiatorie for the liuing and for the dead for their sinnes paines and satisfactions good to coniure stormes to heale diseases to winne Battels to purge the great crimes to draw the soules out of purgatorie to finde things lost c. The word sacrifice is taken sometime for the whole office and diuine seruice Saint Paul saith that he sacrificed the Gospel And he called sacrifice the faith of the faithfull also their prayers to God their almes for the poore their collecting for the Ministerie the offerings that were made to the holie assemblies and from whence they tooke the Euchariste was called Sacrifices this is one of the occasions for the which the name was attributed to the holy Supper The same answere may serue to your last Reply As touching that which I spake of the testimonie of the Fathers whereon you conclude seing that I accept then on the questiōs of fact in matters of their time I ought thē accept the Masse which S. August witnesseth to haue caused to be celebrated in his time I say that the same equiuocation which is in the word of sacrifice is in the word of Messe albeit the vsage of this heere is farre more new in the Christian Church then that was of theirs In diuers Fathers it is not found at all onely but touched in S. Augustine that but in a writtē work which the most learned holdeth to be counterfeit that alwayes in a farre different signification than it is taken for nowe adayes I counsell you to take it into that same sence which S. Augustine doth by the proper confession of of Bellarmine that is Promissione for one dismissing and that you giue one fare well to the Masse which is called in Lattine Missam facere missam Touching that newe question which you make in your letter to wit seeing that the way to saluation hath beene open in all Ages to all those who will apply vnto them the mirrit of the death of our Lord. What doctrine I pray you professed they who were of the choosen number three or foure hundred yeeres since and if I had beene in those dayes in what vessell should I haue cast mee into for comming to the port of saluation I answere that the great Doctor of the Elect in all Ages is the holy Spirit for they are taught of God as witnessed Iesus Christ and all their doctrine in all times is that of the olde and newe Testament which neither Sathan neither his Vicar the Antichrist could euer destroy Of this doctrine God hath alwaies reuealed as much as was necessary for thē to saluatiō whether they did read by themselues or that they vnderstood it by others you haue an notable example in the Historie of S. Barnard who being a little while before the time which you set downe perceiuing the corruptions of his time at the very houre of his death rempted by Sathan he clensed himselfe of that filthinesse confessing that he could not obtaine saluation by his merits which was the doctrine publiquely taught in the Schooles at that time neither pretending it but by grace declaring that our Sauiour possesseth it by a a double right by the inheritage of the Father and by the merit of his Passion and that contenting himselfe with the one he gaue him the other if you desire a more particular clearing of this question see the Book of the Cathologue of the witnesses of the troth and you shall finde that there hath beene no age so darke wherin the troth hath not spread some beames amids the smoakes which arise out of the bottomles pit of Rome And if God had giuen me life in those times I beleeue assuredly that he would haue giuen me the grace either to abstaine from this Papisticall poyson or to vomite it vp in time preseruing me frō this infection as hee preserued his children from the fire of the Babylonian Furnace In briefe I would haue done that which afterwards I did in Spaine and at Rome and that which I wish you had performed in the same place by the example of some of your followers making their prayers and exercises of godlinesse in priuate without defiling themselues with idolatrie which is committed in publique to goe out of this Babylon in heart though they found them as touching the body there engaged The totall summe is to saile in the sea of this world which is visible and materiall is required a ship visible and materiall but to arriue at the hauen of saluation as this port is spirituall in no wise of this world so many enter there without materiall and visible vessell that is without being locally and corporally in any certaine materiall Temple or visible Church And this I maintaine is happened to many during this great and generall reuolt vnder the tyrannie of Antichrist foretold in the Scripture which like a long and furious tempest hath rent and strangely disfigured the ship of the visible Church by the wines and waues of humaine inuentions which haue made many both Pilots and passengers for to loose the Loadstarre of Gods ordinances But suffer mee I pray you Sir to aske you to what port or hauen you pretend to attaine in this ship of neutralitie in which you stay so long in the roade betweene the two barques of Preaching the Masse And if he who iudgeth men such as he findeth them calling you vnexpectly to appeare before his throne finde you thus disposed what sentence would you hope from his mouth I beseech him with al my heart to cause you to thinke vpon it and so to prepare and direct you rather by change of life then Religion In the meane time I rest SIR Your most humble and affectionate Seruitour D. TILENVS FINIS Lib. 9. cap. 5● Dist 3. C. 4. Is qui non habet Caus 12. q. 1. c. dilectissionis Act. 19. 19. 2. Cor. 11. Ephes 4. 7. Heb. 18. 38. Apoc. 12. 14. Math. 2. 13. Bellar. li. 3. cap. 2. de eccl Annal. tom 6. an 484. §. 4. tom 7 an 530. §. 5. 2. Thes 27. Acts. 20. 2● Mat. 13. 25. Sur. tom 1. die 8. Ian. Bar. Tom. 9. Anno. 805. §. 3. 2 Conc. Chal. de Laicis cap. 20. Praef. in lib. de Pontif. 3 Lib. 1. Epist 4. 4 Mark 8. 24. 2. Cor. 4. 5. 5 Orat. 2. in Arrianos 2. Tom. 3. 6. The 21. 9 O art 8. Mat. 28. 6 D●ft 9. C. uoli meis 1 Cor. 13 9. Ephe. 4. 7. Luk. 24. 48. Act. 1. 8 Annal. tom 1. an 34. An. 39. §. 22. Didy de Spirit S. Virgil. cont Sabel c. August ad Dard. De consocrat dist 2. C. ego Bereng Bellar. de Imag. l. 2 cap. 22. Cic 1. Off. Rom. 14. 13. Ioh. 11. 29. Mat. 13. 46. Psa 119 Cal. lib. 4 sect 3. 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 1 2 Tom. 5. an 399. s 19. 20. 3 Theodor. lib. 16. 23. 24. 4 Oauph In vita marcil lib. 2. non video q̄uōmodo quolocum hunc altissimūtonent slu●ri possunt I see not how those which hold this high place can be safe Theod. le ior lib. 3. Bell. de a miss in grat statum pro 2. 18. Beron tom 9. Ang. 26. verse 54. Rom. 15. Philips 3. Iohn 6. ver 11. In the life of S. Barnard neere the mids therof