Temple nay filled everie corner and everie high place And because una birundo non facit ver I would inquire yet farther Where was the visible Church of Iudah whereas Manasseh restored Idolatrie as lykewyse vnder Amon If our Adversaries would except heere That there remained still a Church throughout all those dayes and times to wit in some certaine persons as Prophets and others of the same note the answere should prooue easie The quaestion is not of the Church simplie for there remaineth still a Church while there remaine anie two or three qui Patrem in CHRISTO per Spiritum invocent but of the Church as to her externall policie If shee remaine alwayes so visible as to her externall forme as that shee may bee straight discerned or internosced by the eye from other companies whether acclaiming or not acclaiming to them this name for our Adversaries cannot away that anie Church receiue the name of a true Church which is not instructed with this externall policie furnished with this outward visibilitie eutaxie and constitution If you could bee pleased heere to eye a little with mee the Church throughout her whole marching from Families to the Tabernacle and from thence to the Temple as lykewyse throughout her whole estate before the Law vnder the Law and vnder Grace you should see her still to haue suffered eclipses and deliquies as to her externall forme or visible face so that our Adversaries denying That a Church can turne invisible quoad externam ' 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 politiam and yet continue a Church bewray an inexpiable anistoresie or ignorance of the sacred historie Reade you not in the third Chapter of Genesis of the fall of our first Parents and at the closure of the fourth Chapter howe men began to call vpon the Name of the LORD as Enoch was borne to Seth which importeth a prior suppression of Religion How long continued the true Religion vnviolated Etiam in sanctâ illâ gente even in that holie posteritie of SHEM Were not ABRAHAMS Fathers Idolaters and himselfe called out of VR of the CHALDAEANS being an Idolater Againe Did not the people followe Idolatrie the space of two hundreth yeares in AEGYPT without so much as anie open opposite Ezechiel 23. Vers 3. and 19. Heere both the Daughters IVDAH as ISRAEL or SAMARIA idolatred and committed Fornication as is cleare from the alleadged place What will our Adversaries say heere where the whole people idolatred and worshipped the golden Calfe etiam ARAONE duce Exod. 32. For as to that That MOSES was free heere it is nothing for hee is Ecclesiae but non Ecclesia BELLARMINE here affirmeth yet farther That the whole Levites remained pure and free from this contagion because that the whole sonnes of LEVI are sayde to haue gathered themselues vnto him Vbi ultionem pararet poenas exigeret Idolomanias illius For aunswere BELLARMINE playeth the Sophist heere for the Text serveth to show indeede who they were that adjoyned themselues to MOSES that they were Levites but it sayeth not that the Levites were all to one pure and free from this contagion nay it is not probable that all the sonnes of LEVI gathered themselues to MOSES for so if omnes sese ad ultionem accinxissent majorem indubiè edidissent stragem for a little after Habito eorum censu they are reckoned foorth about nine thousand Alwayes the first answere serveth the turne What can our Adversaries say to their manifolde and most frequent revolts vnder the IVDGES Nay What can they possible except heere whereas wee reade Iudg. Cap. 8. Vers 27.33.34 of the generall revolt of the Iudge and people in common whilst even GIDEON one of the Iudges of no slender note made an Ephod and put it in EPHRATH his Citie where all ISRAEL went a-whoring after it Yea and not staying heere after his death went a-whoring after Baalim and made Baal-Berith their god By the waye heere it is observeable what aunswere that ARCHI-RABBI BELLARMINE returneth to this exception of our men to wit Of the generall inveighing of the Prophets against the generall defection of the whole bodie in common of the whole people head and tayle as it were to wit That that is directed to all oratorio more which pertayneth but to the greater part that is per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nowe then to take but what hee giveth it holdeth then still true Ecclesiam deficere saltem secundum rationem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or in respect of the greater part Aufugiente subducente se interim muliere in desertum the Woman taking her flight in the meane time to the Wildernesse ubi à DEO mirabiliter pascitur rationibus nobis saepe occultis sibi autem ut notissimis ita facillimis But to come a little nearer I would learne of our Adversaries Where the visible face of the Church was whereas CHRIST came into the worlde If this was to bee measured ex visibili illa Sacerdotum successione from that visible succession of the Priestes Againe I would vnderstand heere What shall bee the visible or externall forme or face of the Church whereas CHRIST shall come to judgement whiles Hee hath fore-prophesied Himselfe Hee shall scarse finde Fayth on the Earth This I vrge onelie ad sensum currentem I grant indeede that there may bee such a visible Church as our Adversaries require and holde to wit As consisting of members devoyde of Fayth Hope and Charitie for I would haue you to remember heere that of BELLARMINE de Ecclesiae Lib. 3. Cap. 2. Sect. ultima where hee sayeth Non requiri ad hoc ut quis sit membrum Ecclesiae ut habeat Fidem Spem Charitatem And yet Si diis placet this Church shall bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Whereas the Church rested as some of themselues even acknowledge in the person of the blessed Virgine where was then the visible face of the Church I would farther pose our Adversaries If the Kingdome of GOD may not admit and suffer translation from one Nation to another nay and if it hath not indeede suffered the same What follie or yet madnesse is it then so pertinaciouslie to pretende heere That a Church cannot suffer such eclipse as to her externall forme as that shee may not bee espyed Wherefore to deale a little more presslie here I would vnderstand if What hath behappened to anie one part of the Catholicke Church that is to this or that particular Church may not befall another or else the reason of the difference heere But so it is This or that particular Church may suffer this eclipse yea admit this translation as the Church of EPHESVS to mention it exemplarlie for Nonne CHRISTVS hoc ipsum interminatur in Epistolis ad Asiaticas Ecclesias tollam Candelabrum doeth hee not thus menace the Church of EPHESVS Revel Cap. 2. vers 5. that hee will come against her shortlie and remooue her Candle-sticke out of his place except shee amende Then it remayneth
the matter prooveth easier with our Adversaries who haue CHRIST with them bodilie still present in the Hostie for-sooth vpon the Priestes intention and the Sainctes and Angles semblablie in their representing Images Nay to deale heere well liberallie with our Adversaries and giue them that that which is but the most ignoble part of the Church which repit or serpit humi which is but a edolating exasciating effigiating or efforming heere but by piece-maile may bee called by the name of the Catholicke Church I pray you may all these particular Churches so diverslie dispersed throughout the whole world gathered of every Trybe Nation Kinred Language bee together and at once pointed at by finger for it is headilie to bee observed how our Adversaries confound in this argument 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 visibile 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 videri taking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 visibile non de potentia sed de actu c. As to that their Palmarie or maine Argument heere Quod cujus partes omnes sunt visibles ipsum totum tale sit and so that the Catholicke Church must needs bee visible because of the visibilitie of all the particulare Churches Truelie this argument non tam habet paralogismum quam sapit redolet helleborismum as if all the particulare Churches throughout the world Locorum intervallis tam dissitae simul semel digito notari possent But to binde our Adversaries heere I argue thus Quod desideratur vel in toto Physico illud frustra requiritur malè exigitur in toâ—o mystico That is What is found wanting or is not findable in a physicall bodie is ill required and sought for in a mysticall But so it is vel in toto Physico even in a Physicall bodie quantitatis scilicet ita discretae ut partes longissimis locorum intervallis à seinvicem distent partes omnes simul semel digito notari non possunt Ergo farre lesse is this findable in a mysticall bodie yea in such a bodie quod simul continuum discretum praedicatur esse in Scripturis as which is named by the names of things quantitatis utriusque continuae discretae as of an House of a Flocke c. I leaue to show How the Church may bee called visible and invisible in different regards respectis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 materialis or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 formalis respectu formae internae or externae which externall forme againe variis mutationum vicibus ac gyris obnoxia ac infesta est Quartum Meletema IF so bee That the Church may suffer such eclipse as to her externall forme or visible face as that shee cannot bee espyed and discerned there remaining but a remanent through the election of Grace then it followeth that this demand of our Adversaries Concerning the being of our Church before LVTHER as to that her externall forme or visible face is but idle But wee may see the possibilitie of this hypothese vnder both the Testamentes in the dayes of Eli vnder the olde Testament 1. King 19 and in Sainct Pauls time vnder the newe Covenant Rom. 11. vers 5. Then the question turneth to this to see When and where this case hath behappened the Church wherefore from hence thus I reason In the dayes of Eliah there was a true Church in Israel which the LORDS owne answere returned to Eliah vpon that his complaint instructeth to the full except that seaven thousand Numerus definitus pro indefinito can not make vp a Church with our Adversaries heere who can cut her shorter at tymes to their owne advantage as in their private Communion But so it is this Church suffered eclipse as to her outward forme or visible face for howe could shee else haue escaped even the sight of the Prophet cui erant ad videndum oculi Ergo a Church ceaseth not to bee simplie whilst eclipsed as to her externall forme or visible face Thus you may perceiue evidentlie how our Adversaries heere deceiue the simpler sort vrging still the visiblitie of the Church for what hath alreadie behappened the Church the same case may againe befall her and so their quaestion resolveth in the winde Our Adversaries heere perceiving and feeling themselves straited as touching the Church in Israel are forced to bethinke with themselues of some escape here whitherto to haue their refuge wherefore they grant this to bee true of the Church of Israel or of Samaria but they pretende that there was then a flowrishing Church in Hierusalem vnder the reigne of Asa and Iosaphat godlie Princes and so that this instance proveth nothing for the whole Church vnder the Law For answere First wee alleadge not hitherto that instance that therevpon wee may conclude the generall or in the generall of the whole ancient Church vnder the Law but onlie to proue that these may suffer yea and haue reapse suffered divorce that is That a Church may remaine simplie a Church though eclipsed as to her externall policie outward forme or visible face which our Adversaries flatlie deny because of the errand in hand Next it is sufficient for probation of our Theme and decyding the quaestion betwixt them and vs to prooue this of anie particular Church for why may not the same case befall anie sister Church So frustra sunt Adversarii whereas they except that this alleadged instance by vs prooveth nothing for the Catholicke Church or for the whole Church vnder the Law for wee are not so swollen vp as to acclaime to vs the name of the Catholicke Church but humblie acknowledge our selues but Daughters of that Mother Last ut dejiciamus eos hoc praesidio that wee may driue them from this starting hole I would pose our Adversaries if the Church of Iudah had anie farther Priviledge heere Truelie wee may see Iudah to haue surpassed her Sister Samaria in her abhominations nay to haue exceeded Sodome and her daughters Ezech. 16. yea wee finde her revolts so generall as that Prince Priest and People all in common abandoned the Law of GOD declined from His service fell away to Idolatrie and followed after the same Ezech. 7. vers ultino But because that generals cannot binde nor worke with our Adversaries let vs instance the matter more particularlie Whereas King Ahaz set vp a strange Altar after the fashion of that of Damascus in the house of GOD nay the Priest himselfe Vriiah made it and set it vp at the wicked Kinges commaundement and sacrificed therevpon vnto the gods of the Damasconians yea last whereas this wicked King gathered together the Vessels of the House of GOD brake them and shut vp the doores of the House of the LORD made him Altars in everie corner of Hierusalem and in everie Citie of Iudah made high places to burne Incense vnto other gods 2. King 16. Item 2. Chron. 28. vers 23.24.25 I would pose our Adversaries heere where was the visible face of the Church of Iudah whilst Idolatrie thus occupied and filled the
That the lyke case may befall anie Church else To vse yet a fewe particulare instances for the fuller and clearer conviction of our Adversaries Vbi Mahumetismus omnia in Oriente obtinuit nay Vbi totus orbis ingemuit sese Arrianum factum esse miratus est ubi visibilis illa Ecclesiae facies quaeso videris Whereas Mahumetisme obtayned throughout the whole East nay and the whole worlde groaned vnder the heavie Yoake and Burden of Arrianisme vvhere was the visible face of the Church Truelie there is nothing more certaine than that there were manie most flowrishing Churches in the East which are to daye proh dolor transformed in Muscetas Mahumetanorum Nay I haue it of those who had it ex 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they saw in Greece manie flowrishing Cities wherein there was not so much as the least trace of anie Church nor vestige of anie Christian doctrine omnia quippe occupaverat Mahumetica colluvies But lest I might seeme heere vel è sinu proferre testem as is ordinarie with our Adversaries I sticke not to deferre this to their owne testimonie or the testimonie to themselues I pray you then what letteth mee to reason heere by way of Analogie and so conclude That what hath behappened this or these particular Churches may befall others their Sisters nothing more heere priviledged against the same danger That wee may come yet nearer and strike home let mee demande of our Adversaries Whether or not the Church vnder Grace should haue her flight to the Wildernesse and that with Eagles wings not onlie for pernicitie in flying but for continuing of the flight in respect of tract of tyme and so lurke there for a goodlie space I hope our Adversaries dare not so farre foorth rubbe their fore-heads heere as openlie to disavow this the Scripture beeing heere so expresse and formall Now this beeing laide the answere to the maine quaestion prooveth easie Our Church was lurking in the Desert fleeing the persecution of the Dragon as that Church of Israel lurked vnder that persecution of Achab and Iezabel Nay this affordeth vs an infallible demonstration for vs and against our Adversaries to this sense That must needs bee the true Church which according to Sainct Iohns prophesie hath had her flight to the Wildernesse But so it is such onlie is ours and not theirs according to their owne confession and concession whereas they stand to the constant visibilitie thereof Ergo with vs still is the true Church Thus who seeth not except a borne-blinde that our Adversaries wrong their cause mightilie through imprudencie or impudencie whereas they contende That their Church was not onlie visible but still actuallie seene for differunt haec duo quantum actus potentia adeoque non statim desinit esse visibile quod non actu videtur it ceaseth not straight to bee visible which is not actuallie seene which our Adversaries still confound in this argument as who deny straight the visibilitie of a Church except shee may bee still actuallie pointed at by the finger as if the Sunne ceased to bee visible whiles the sight thereof is intercepted from vs by the interjection of a Cloude or through the weaknesse of our seeing facultie vnseene of vs. Thus you see how variable a Church is and may bee us to her outward policie so that our Adversaries haue heere no just matter offered them of offence whereas tracing heerein the Fathers in whose words else they sweare yea their fayth resolveth wee liken the Church to the Moone propter varios labores defectus eclipses deliquia Hitherto Sainct AUGUSTINE Ipsa est quae aliquando obscuratur tanquam obnubilatur multitudine scandalorum aliquando tranquillitate temporis quieta libera apparet aliquando tribulationum tentationum fluctibus operitur atque turbatur But let vs heare the Church of her selfe and for her selfe Micab Chap. 7.8 Rejoyce not against mee O mine Enemie though I fall I shall aryse when I shall sit in darknesse the LORD shall bee a light vnto mee c. Heere this is spoken in the person of the Church which calleth the malignant Church her enemie Now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 praesupponeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Est of the third adjacent Est of the second Then the true Church may fall and sit in darknesse Hitherto reade we Isaiah Chap. 1. vers 8 where the Daughter of Zion is likened to a Cottage in a Vine-yarde to a Lodge in a Garden of Cucumbers and to a besiedged Citie c. which if committed with these other places importing at least poynting at her conspicuitie and visibilitie serue to shew foorth her variablenesse and shadowing by turning I know that our Adversaries except against the former part of my Discourse where I concluded from the Iewish Church to the Christian because of the great oddes heere and diverse priviledges of the Christian Church aboue the Iewish wherefore it standeth vs vpon to eye a little into these alleadged Priviledges as wee would haue my prior Discourse to remayne in its full vigour The Priviledges of the Christian Church aboue the Iewish at least alleadged vnto in this Argument I finde in speciall to bee these two The first The vniversalitie of the one aboue the other and this to this sense As that there is no salvation without the Christian but was not so of the Iewish The seconde is That the Christian hath farre fayrer and larger promises made to her As to the first taken from the vniversalitie of the Christian Church lest they might seeme heere to stand but to a bare and naked Assertion they thus instance the matter from Iob and some yet from Melchisedecke That I may proceede heere the more orderlie first I will treate a little in the generall of the whole matter and then come to the particulare exceptions and their probations To the generall then I would first inquire and learne of our Adversaries Whether the Church vnder the Law and vnder Grace bee two different Churches or but one and the same in matter and substance though differing in respect of the externall scheme or Vesture Iewish or Christian as still the grace dispensed vnder both the Covenantes was but one and the same the manner of dispensation but varying Next I would vnderstand Whether or not Eadem fit analogia partium similarium so that what behappeneth anie one part may befall another and so all in common are lyable to the same dangers Last the Apostle vvideth this processe heere to our advantage Rom. 11. where hee showeth That the Christian Church of the Gentiles is capable of excision incase shee persevere not as was the Iewish Synagogue nay hee reasoneth from rhe more to the lesse Now to the particular exceptions As to the first I avouch That the Iewish Church ceedeth not the least heere to the Christian and That without her there was no salvation For proofe heereof besides diverse other passages making heerevnto let vs advise the Apostle Ephes
Cap. 2. Vers 11.12 where wee shall see what is his construction of the vncircumcision during that their state to wit People without CHRIST aliants from the Common-wealth of ISRAELL strangers from the Covenants of Promise yea without hope and without GOD in the worlde From hence thus I reason If there was anie salvation for those of the vncircumcision or for those without the Iewishe Church for Circumcision was their Sacrament of Initiation then was there salvation for people without CHRIST for aliantes from the Common-wealth of ISRAELL for strangers from the Covenants of Promise yea for people without hope and without GOD in the world But I hope our Adversaries dare not averre that there was or could bee anie salvation for such Ergo There was no Salvation or yet could bee without the Iewish Church As to the instances from which they goe about to instance this exception in the particular of Iob and Melchisedecke first of the first I grant indeede that it were well hard divining about the tyme or of the tyme wherein Iob lived but even from off of this vncertaintie I collect That this instance drawne from his person cannot prooue of great force and demonstratiuelie conclude this their point Next giving hee lived vnder the Law and yet was not circumcised were it safe argumenting thus to reason from one particular exemple against the constant tenour of the whole Scriptures denying salvation to those who were not inrolled amongst the people of GOD by Circumcision Yet if it should not offende I would gather for my selfe that hee was so farre from living in the dayes of Moses that at the least hee lived before Abraham out of the last of his Booke at the vp-shot from that his age where it is sayde And after this lived IOB an hundreth and fourtie yeares and saw his sonnes and his sonnes sonnes even foure generations c. Now what convenient tyme can wee assigne to him before this If we assigne to him but some fiftie or sixtie yeares his whole dayes shall amount to some two hundreth yeares or there-about Now wee see not anie in the dayes of MOSES to haue come neare this age nay wee reade not of anie after ABRAHAM that came to such yea hee lived not so long himselfe Last the whole narratiue of his historie would seeme to make him more ancient than MOSES But I take not vpon mee to define ought heere onelie I would showe that our Adversaries can argument but well weakelie from so slender and so vncertaine a warrand As to the other instance of MELCHISEDECK I am ashamed so much as to mention it but the least for hee is sayd expreslie To haue blessed ABRAHAM before his Circumcision or receiving of the seale of the aliance or Covenant and To haue teethed LEVI in ABRAHAMS loynes Truelie magnum hic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hiatus multus betwixt MELCHISEDECK and MOSES wherefore this instance is altogether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or impertinent Our Adversaries beeing now thus deboutted from their first Exception let vs see into the seconde if it bee of anie greater force which concerneth the Priviledge of Promises I would learne of our Adversaries If the LORD tendered lesse that His Church vnder the Law than Hee doeth this vnder Grace and If the Promises were not semblablie made to her as to the Christian Church by GOD of His gracious assistance and praesence Hîc haeret iis aqua the Apostle beeing so expresse For amongst the manie Priviledges of the IEW aboue the GENTILE Rom. Cap. 9. hee reckoneth this as one That vnto them the Promises were made Nay the Apostle Sainct PETER in the seconde Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles at the thirtie and ninth Verse witnesseth disertlie That the Promises first and especiallie concerned the IEWES and the GENTILES but in the next rowme For the Promise is made vnto you and to your Children and vnto all that are afarre off even as manie as the LORD our GOD shall call c. Did not one and the selfe same Spirit still informe this one and the same mysticall bodie Quintum Meletema THat wee may the more happilie verse in this businesse and travell in this matter we would heere headilie distinguish betwixt the essentiall and integrant partes of a Church for a Church may remaine and consist whiles constant ei sua essentialia though lamed or maimed in respect of her partes integrant I know the integrant partes to receiue their subdivision heere into those which are more or lesse principall or into the principall and secundarie partes as it is with a naturall or yet artificiall bodie so that it followeth not straight That a Church ceaseth to bee there where shee is not visible but onlie this That shee is not quoad sua integrantia so that shee ceaseth onlie to bee in a certaine regarde remaining alwayes simplie a Church quantisper constant ei sua essentialia supersunt duo aut tres Patrem in CHRISTO per Spiritum invocantes there remaine vocatio activa passiva which are the essentials of a Church It resteth then that the want of externall policie or outward visibilitie praevaileth not so farre as to abolish simplie a Church But yet as to this wee deny not but that it ought to bee de jure But the quaestion is de facto and of the force of this actuall want if it bee such as prooveth destructive of the subject simplie and not in a certaine regard onlie c. Sextum Meletema AS to the promises made by CHRIST to his Church throughout the Gospel they would bee vnderstood aright which are indeede heere misvnderstood and misconceived by our Adversaries for they draw straight whatsoever promise is made to the whole bodie of the Church in common to the Romane Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nay and require the accomplishment and fulfillment of the same in everie particular Church or in everie part of the whole Now from hence it is cleare that this consequence is verie inconsequent that the Church ceaseth simplie to bee visible because this or that particular Church or yet both are devoyde of this visibilitie for first the Church may bee visible elsewhere and next the Church may remaine even there where shee is eclipsed of her visibilitie to wit as to her essentials Againe our Adversaries yet deceiue heere whilst they tye these promises of CHRIST as De firmitate Petrae De continua spiritus sui assistentia and others of the same note to the externall forme of the Church and so will haue them onelie to concerne that externall Policie for so CHRIST should cease to bee the Head of His Church and to His Church whereas the Woman subduceth her selfe and taketh her flight to the Wildernesse and lurketh there Thus that House-holder Matth. Chap. 21. Vers 33.34 should haue casten off all care of his Vine-yarde whiles hee letteth it foorth to those wicked and perfidious Husband-men Nay did not CHRIST well often subduce Himfelfe
to those holie Fathers gathered at that Councell Thirdlie giving heere liberallie for the tyme That a constant and vninterrupted succession of Bishops were an infallible note of a true Church wherefore should not this militate aswell for the three other Seages of ALEXANDRIA ANTIOCHIA HIERVSALEM as for the Sea of ROME seeing as EVSEBIVS witnesseth in his Ecclesiasticall Historie Lib. 3. that they haue this succession Why then should the Church of ROME bee more instyled by the name of the true sole Catholicke and Apostolicke Church than the Church of ALEXANDRIA ANTIOCH c What can this succession to PETER in sedem Romanam import and rapport beyond the succession to anie Apostle else into anie other Seage or Seat I would bee glad to bee instructed heere where I promise to follow the light as docilem me praebere Fourthlie If this sorte of Succession to wit personall and locall which is the onelie Succession vrged and requyred by our Adversaries were simplie necessarie to the constitution of a true Church and lawfull Ministrie and were an infallible if not constitutiue at least oftensiue note of a true Church then wee behooved to acknowledge that Church straight for a true Church where this were to bee found For nota debet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or retrocommeat with the subject noted as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 risibile doeth cum homine but I hope our Adversaries shall not stande heerevnto for then they behooved to acknowledge the GREEKE Church for a true and lawfull Church which they most pertinaciouslie heere denye for haec bâc Successione gaudet possent hi longam seriem texere Catalogum instituere EPISCOPORVM Nay then the ARRIANS should haue made vp a true Church because of this Succession obtayning lykewyse with them Our Adversaries heere finding themselues strayted are driven to seeke to some posture whitherto they affirme That the Argument proceedeth heere but negatiuelie that is That it serveth not so much to showe vvhere the Church is or What is the true Church as Where shee is not Where-vpon it followeth That this Succession shall bee nota non nota or nota non notificans a note not notifying or poynting foorth the subject which is to convell the fundaments of all true and sound Philosophie But to trace them yet heere and deject them from this refuge Thus there shoulde not haue beene a Church in the beginning neyther shoulde there bee one at the consummation of the worlde as where utrobique hic defectus comparet haec successio desideratur this Succession is vvanting Wherefore the Argument proceedeth not so much as by way of negation Fiftlie The practise of the Primitiue Church standeth heere to the contrarie where wee finde a double sorte of Vocation where-of una fiebat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nowe I woulde vnderstande of our Adversaries their judgement of and about those Ordinations vsed by those olde ancient Fathers which were called absolutelie If they bee to them or with them eyther for null or for vitious But so it is This Succession which they presse to wit personall and locall was heere wanting where-in they place the verie essence of Succession c. Sixtlie I would inquyre of our Adversaries Whereas CONSTANTINOPLE vvas made a Patriarchall Seate tempore THEODOSII Magni which Citie before was still subject HERACLENSI Episcopo tantum abest ut CONSTANTINOPOLITANVS Episcopus fuerit Patriarcha ut ne Metropolites quidem Whether or not they vvill take vpon them heere to condemne this because of this defect of a personall and locall Succession in Caput although else it was a cooptation in commune corpus tagma Collegium systema reliquorum Patriarcharum according to those absolute Ordinations vsed of olde by those auncient Fathers c. Seaventhlie If this Succession personall and locall were simplie heere necessarie then it shoulde followe to their great praejudice heere quòd nulli novi Episcopatus possent condi institui That no newe Bishoprickes could bee erected so that heere they praejudge through imprudencie and inconsideration their so due and just deserved prayse of their so fruitfull labours amongst the INDIANS where they haue builded and created so manie newe CHURCHES c. Last of all Where-as our verie Adversaries conclude this poynt from that Succession of the Iudges of ISRAEL vvhy may they not admit heere That this Succession may fuffer interruption as wee see that to haue beene reapse diverselie and eft-soones interrupted vnder their diverse enemies MOABITES CANANITES AMORITES and so foorth and that nowe for longer and nowe for shorter space as nowe for the space of twentie yeares nowe of seaven yea nowe of whole fourtie Truelie this Argument heere militateth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus I hope I haue improven to the verie full the necessitie of this Succession to wit personall and locall vvhich our Adversaries heere vrge and presse so much As to the second I promised to prooue that is That this Succession is not to bee found with our verie Adversaries I shall GOD vvilling prooue this by infallible demonstrations No Haereticke hath jus ordinandi or power of Ordination even according to some of their owne Canons Thus I argue not by position but of supposition onelie ad hominem vvhere I denye not lykewyse BABEL to bee confounded c. But so it is that manie and diverse of their Popes haue proven such Ergo for the least during this space this Succession hath suffered interruption nay it followeth from hence That there hath beene no lawfull Church or Ministrie vvith them since so much as vvarrandable by their owne Canons For probation of the minor Our probation shall not stay it selfe heere in the Scriptures which were indeede sufficient but of surplussge and for the clearer conviction of our Adversaries and to take from them all effuge means to escape heere I offer mee to prooue That diverse Haeretickes haue possessed that Chaire and occupied the same even according to that way which themselues call Haeresie where I may reckon foorth a great traine of them as were LIBERIVS FOELIX the second LEO the first GELASIVS the first VIGILIVS GREGORIE the second ZACHARIE the first ADRIAN the first NICOLAS the first IOHN the eight NICOLAS the second COELESTINE the third INNOCENT the third IOHN the twentie-two and INNOCENT the eight all which haue erred in that which concerneth the Fayth else our Moderne Doctours prooue heterodoxe as who holde not nor maintaine the same doctrine with them But for shortnesse sake I will content mee to poynt at those who haue beene condemned for such by lawfull Councels First then I would pose our Adversaries what they can say to HONORIVS the first condemned in two generall Councels the sixt and the seaventh and anathematized as an Haereticke for a Monothelite Our Seraphicke Doctor BELLARMINE can tell vs heere that HONORIVS erred but as a private man heere and not as Pope A braue eschappatoire forsooth ficulneum ADAMI praesidium a fine