at anie defiance with the persons of the Bishops much lesse with the kings civill authoritie whereof they are possessed whether in matters civill or ecclesiasticall Of their persons their own Lords shall judg to whom they stand or fall There have been of that ranke who in our Marian daâ—es have preferred the profession of the truth of the gospell before their lives I hope there are also of their successours who if pressed with the same necessitie which God forbid would give the same testimonie though at the same rate unto the same truth of God revealed unto them Now as concerning their civill authoritie albeit we do not beleev that the same is at all competent to the true ministers of the gospell especially in that eminencie externall glorie and pompe of this world in which they far exceed manie worldly princes and rayther seem to represent the tryumphant then the militant church yet for so much as they both obteyn the same by the gift of the king and exercise it in his name we do not unwillingly yeald honour and obedience unto it and to his majestie in it But whereas it seems unto manie plain and evident that we may adjoin our selvs to the Church of England without any subjection or relation unto the spirituall government and governers thereof that is altogether beyond our capacities neither can we comprehend it how it may be that he who subjects and joyns himself to anie publique and politique bodie or communitie whether spirituall or civil becomes not in so doing ipso facto subject to the publique government and governers thereof and undergoes not a relation and respect actually unto them They raither are with all seriousnes to consider how faythfully and sincerely they quit themselvs and their consciences before God and men who contending and proving in and by so manie words and arguments that the hierarchicall government is papall and Antichristian do neverthelesse submit themselvs thereunto both in the respect and relation politicall formerly mentioned and also in acts properly ecclesiasticall into which the ecclesiasticall government and spirituall policie of the church doth necessarily diffuse it self Now I do earnestly entreat thee whosoever thou art acquainted with Belgick or raither Christian libertie and either free from the mists of prejudice or if anie way prejudiced yet not chusing raither to serve a preconceaved opinion then to follow an apparent truth that thou wouldest truly ingenuously tell whether if the Magistrates here from which they are far should by publique edict under severe penaltie constreyn all and everie the native subjects of the countrie into the bosom of the church without anie difference made either in respect of fayth or manners according to the place of their habitation and should set over this church so collected and constituted an Hierarchicall Bishop provinciall or diocesan in whose hands alone with his Officials Chauncellours Commissaries Archdeacons and other Court-keepers canonicall authoritie should be placed to constitute and depose ministers excommunicate and absolve both ministers and people yea whole churches yea with the living the dead that they may obteyn Christian buriall whether now in this confused heap and under this spirituall Lordship thou wouldest endure to remain either Pastour or member I suppose not You brethren have not so learned Christ whom you acknowledg both for the author of your faith and instituter of your order ecclesiasticall Neyther yet we having learned otherwise by the grace of God Christ the king doth gather and form unto himself another kinde of kingdom amongst men and the same to be administred by other officers and according to other lawes And if no place upon the face of the â—ruth should be free for us poore creatures refusing upon meer conscience of God as thou God the judg and searcher of hearts knowest to commingle and prostitute our selvs in and unto this confusion and domination hierarchicall we have most assured hope that heaven it self is open for us by Christ who is the way and whom in this dutie also we do serve in which we shall at the length be fully free from this and all other incumbrances Our adversaries bear in hand not onely others but even us our selvs also that we do for certain trifleing matters as they speak circumstantiall corruptions sequester our selvs from the Church of England And as nurses use to lisp with children so they that they might discend to our capacities do oft and much instruct us that unworthie members must be born in the church especially of private persons that some corruptions at least in the discipline and externall rites are to be tolerated that there may be the temple of God though prophaned the holy cittie though without a wall the feild of the Lord though the enemie sowtares amongst the wheat also a heap of wheat though much chaffe commingled therewithall And that we dul-bayards as we are may at the length conceav those things they verie seriously inculcate whet upon us in these the like considerations as that the Israelitish church in its time was steyned with almost all enormities both for manners and fayth that â—nto the same all Israelites and Iewes whatsoever without difference were violently compelled by King Iosiah and others as also that in the parable all were compelled to come to the mariage good and bad that the house might be filled Lastly that in the Apostolick Churches themselvs there were not wanting some who practised and others who taught vile and evill things that in one place the discipline was neglected in another the verie doctrine of fayth corrupted and manie the like matters which it were to long to repeat Surely foolish were we if we knew not these things impudent if we denyed them to be true for the most part and lastly unequall if we acknowledged not that manie the same or like blemishes after a sort will and do creep into the Churches of our dayes which yet to disclaym as unlawfull for the same stood neither with wisdom nor charitie But the prudent Reader may plainly observe by the premises that they are other matters and of greater weight for the most part wherewith we and our consciences are pressed We do not judg it an evill intollerable though greatly to be bewayled that evill men should be suffered in the church but that all of most vile and desperate condition that such and so great a kingdom affoards should thereinto will they nill they be compelled nor that the discipline as they call it or ecclesiast call government instituted by Christ is neglected or violated but that another plain contrarie unto it is set up by law and fully and publiquely everie where exercised Neither lyes our exception against any personall or accâ—dentarie profanation of the Temple but against the faultie frame of it in respect of the causes constitutive matter and form Neither strive we about the walles of the cittie but about the true and lawfull citizens the policie
A IVST AND NECESSARIE APOLOGIE OF CERTAIN CHRISTIANS no lesse contumeliously then commonly called Brownists or Barrowists By Mr. IOHN ROBINSON Pastor of the English Church at Leyden first published in Latin in his and the Churches name over which he was set after translated into English by himself and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own Countrimen Psal. 41. 2. O Blessed is he that prudently attendeth to the poore-weakling Printed in the yeere of our Lord M.DC.XXV A Iust and Necessarie APOLOGIE THE cryme of Heresy none ought patiently to indure sayd Ierom of ould and that not without cause For whereas in other accusations eyther a mans goods or good name or bodily life at the most is indaungered in this the life of the soul which fayth is commeth in question But well it is for the servants of Iesus Christ that they have him their gratious Lord and Saviour for their Iudg by whose alone judgment notwithstanding all mens prejudices they shall stand or fall for ever And if any others any where surely I and they with me have need to get this divine comfort deeplie printed in our hearts whose profession giues occasion to many as doth our condition liberty unto all to spare no severitie of censure upon us Four sorts of heavie freinds we have found and felt in sorrowfull experience wheresoever we have become The first whereof is the unhallowed multitude who living without God in the world and walking themselvs perversly and in the workes of darknes cannot but hate as the light it self so all those who haue receaved grace of God to walke therein with good conscience And as the Apostles in their dayes were everie where most vexed with the hatred of the unbeleeving Iewes their own countrymen so are we by the like of ours like mynded Of whom whilst the most do want their countrie for causes so unlike unto ours no marvayl though there be no better concurrance of eyther affection or action between us The second is of them who are enamoured on that Romish Hierarchie as on a stately and potent Ladie Against which and for the holy presbyteriall government as Christs institution by his Apostles whilst we doe in word and deed give a free full testimonie alasse with how many and how great waves of affliction are we overwhelmed by their â—atred and power Demâ—trius of Ephesus with his Silver-smiths was of all other men to the Apostle Paul opposing himself to the Majestie of Diana and theâ—â— profit withall the most infestuous And who will marvayl if we nothing obsequioâ—s to the Hierarchicall Diana in her self magnificent enough enough advantageable unto hers be abhominable unto this kinde of people aboue all others even Atheists Papists and most flagitious persons not excepted whom they haue devout enough and over unto that Goddesse A third kinde is of those who so servily inbondage themselues and their consciences either to the edicts of Princes or to the determinations of certaine doctors or to both these jointly as that they think nothing well done in case of Râ—ligion which eyther these teach not or they commaund not and on the other side almost any thing warrantable which is commended by the one of them or commaunded by the other And as of these some are so transported with waâ—pish zeale as they can scarcely without a fit of an ague eyther speak to or think of him who a litle steps out of their troad so others of them are so cunning and wote so well how to make their market that though they be indeed almost like mynded with us in all things yet do they vehemently affect unchristian emnitie with us not because they themselues judge us so deserving but others whom therein they think it a poynt of their wisdom to gratify The fourth and last sorte are they who through credulitie and lightnes of beleif haue their ears open to the false and feigned suggestions of slaunderous tongues These men whilst they are over good and easie towards the evill and injurious unto whom they give credence become injurious themselus to the good and innocent though in truth it be hard to say unto which of three they doe the greatest wrong whether to their brethren of whom they causelesly conceaue amisse whilst either they greedily devour or easily receave such false reports vituperies as venemous tongues spit out against them or to their own souls which they thereby make accessorie to others mallice or to the calumniators themselus whom they put in heart to go bouldly on in reproaching the innocent whilst they know where to finde receavers for their slaunders as do theeues for their stoln goods Now alasse what sufficient bulwark of defence haue we poore people to oppose unto the violence of so many and mightie adversaries First and most as a brazen wall 〈◊〉 consâ—â—ence before God and men so farre as humain frailtie will permit pure and unsteyned Next thine equanimitie joyned with wisdom godly and christian Reader for whose cause we haue peâ—â—ed and published this our just and necessarie defence lest being circumvented by prejudice thou mayst happen to hate that whereof thou art ignorant then which nothing in Tertullians judgment is more uniust no not though the thing in it self iustly deserue hatred By this we do earnestly crave that as thou safely mayst so thou wilst ingenuously passe sentence upon us and our profession and not by the unsavourie reportes eyther in word or writing of our adversaries whomsoever who do most commonly take libertie to suggest against us underlings not what in truth conscience they should but what eyther fame reporteth or ignorance suspecteth or mallice inventeth or proud contempt deems suiteing with our meannes and simplicitie Two opprobries amongst others infinite haue beene of late by our adversaries cast upon us by which we are not onely occasioned but after a sorte necessitated to the publishing of this our Apologie lest by not resuting such criminations so great and greivous we should seeme to acknowledg a cryme as Cyprian speaketh The former by some of those who in our owne countrie are reputed the cheif Masters and Patrons both of Religion truth by whom there hath been not a flying bruit spread amongst the multitude but a solemn accusation to them in speciall authoritie framed against us First that we lewd Brownists do refuse and reject one of the Sacraments secondly that we haue amongst us no ecclesiasticall ministrie but doe giue libertie to everie mechanicall person to preach publiquely in the church Thirdly that we are in errour about the verie Trinitie Fourthly and lastly that being become so odious to the magistrates here as that we are by violence to be driven the countrie we are now constreyned to seek some other and farr parte of the world to settle in The other contumelie is in a Duch Rhime without name framed it may be and as commonly it comes to passe between the cup and the
or Sea diveâ—sly called according to the divers regions by whose shores it passeth and that therefore this matter is not worth labour spending about it I answer First that the Catholick church neither is nor can be called visible since onely things singular are visible and discerned by sence whereas universals or things catholick are either onely in the understanding as some are of minde or as others think better are made such to wit universals by the understanding abstracting from them all circumstanstiall accidents considering that the kindes intelligible have their existence in nature that is in the Individuals 2. The Catholick church with due reverence unto learned ned men be it spoken is verie unskilfully said to be one as the sea is one For first it is expressedly said Gen. 1 9 10. that the waters which were under the heauens were gathered into one place or conceptacle which God called Sea or seas But the Catholick church which is said to comprehend al particular congregations in her bosom is not gathered together into one place nor ever shall be before the glorious coming of Christ. 2. The Ocean is a body so continued as that all and everie part thereof is continually fluent so as the self same waters which in their flux do make one sea do in their reflux by contrarie windes make another and so contrariewise But thus to affirm of particular churches and their materiall constitutive cause were most absurd 3. If some one particular sea were drawn drie or should fail his course a disturbance of all the rest would necessarily follow But and if the sea should in divers places at once happen to be exhausted or drawn drie there would then be a fayling of the Ocean neither were the waters now gathered into one place neither made they one sea and body of water either continued or conjoyned But now on the other side upon the defection or dissipation of this or that particular church no such impediment should come in the way but that the rest might hould their full course as before Yea I adde moreover if all and everie particular assembly in the world should languish and fall away one onely excepted that onely one did still remain the true entire Church of Christ without any either subordination or coordination or dependencie spirituall save unto Christ alone The reason is plain because this singular and sole assembly may under Christ the head use and enjoy everie one of his institutions the communion of Saints combyned together in solemn and sacred covenant the word of God Sacraments Censures and ministrations whatsoever by Christ appointed and therewith the same Christs most gratious presence And upon this ground it is that the Apostle Paul doth intitle the particular congregation which was at Corinth and which properly and immediately he did instruct and admonish to the body of Christ the temple of God and one virgin espoused to one housband Christ. We may not therefore under pretence of antiquitie unitie humain prudence or any colour whatsoever remove the auncient bounds of the visible and ministeriall church which our right fathers to wit the Apostles have set in comparâ—son of whom the most ancient of those which are so called are but infants and beardlesse as one truely and wittily sayth There is indeed one church and as the Apostle speaketh one bodie as one spirit one hope of our calling one sayth one baptism that is of one kinde and nature not one in number as one Ocean Neither was the church at Rome in the Apostles dayes more one with the Church of Corinth then was the baptism of Peter one with Pauls baptism or then Peter and Paul were one Neither was Peter or Paul more one whole intire and perfit man consisting of their parts essentiall and integrall without relation unto other men then is a particular congregation rightly instituted and ordered a whole intire and perfit Church immediately and independently in respect of other Churches under Christ. To conclude since the Pastor is not a minister of some part of a Church but of the whole particular Church Act. 20 28. Attend to the whole Flock or Church whereof the holy Ghost hath made you Bishops c. if the ministers office be to be confined within the circle of a particular congregation then also the ministeriall church it self Now the Pastors office is either circumscribed within these bounds or els the Angell of the Church of Ephesus was also the Angell of the Church of Sâ—â—rna and so the Pastour of this Church is also the Pastour of that and by consequence of all that is everie Pastour is an universall Bishop or Pope by office if not for exeqâ—ution yet for power according to which power we are to judg of the office What then will some man say Is it not lawfull for a Pastour to exequute his pastorall office but in the congregation over which he is set I answer with the Apostle No man taketh this honour unto himself but he thatâ— is called of God as Aaron Hebr. 5 3 4. It is not lawfull for thee reverend brother to do the work of a Pastour where thou art no Pastour lest thou arrogate to thy self that honour which apperteyns not unto thee Thou art called that is elected and ordeyned a Pastour of some particular Church and not of all churches It is not onely lawfull but requisite that the Pastour of one Church or â—aither he that is the Pastour and so any other member imparte the gift either spirituall or bodily which he hath receaved to other churches out of the common bond of charitie in which he is obliged not so to exequute a publique office over them by the prerogative of authoritie which he hath not but onely over his owne We will illustrate this by a similitude Any citizen of Leydâ—n may enjoy certain priveledges in the cittie of Delph by vertue of the politick combination of the united provinces and cittie under the supream heads thereof the States generall which he is bound also to help and assist with all his power if necessitie require but that the ordinarie magistrate of Leyden should presume to exequute his publique office in the cittie of Delph were an insolent and unheard of usurpation The verie same and not otherwise is to be said of Pastors and particular Churches in respect of that spirituall combination mutuall under their chief and sole Lord Iesus Christ. CHAP. II. Of the administration of Baptism THE Dutch Reformed Churches as is evident by their practise compared with then profession are neither so true unto their own grounds as they ought neither do they so well provide for the dignitie of the thing whilst they administer the Sacrament of Baptism to the infants of such as are not within the Covenant nor have either parent a member of any Church because 1. Baptism now as circumcision of ould is the seal of the covenant of God with the faythfull and their seed
Church of England THere remains one and that a great matter of exception against us and the same the fountain well nigh of all our calamitie to wit that we seem evill-affected towards the church of England and so averse from the same as that we do no lesse then make a plain secession and separation from it I answer First that our fayth is not negative as Papists use to object to the Euangelicall churches nor which consists in the condemning of others and wipeing their names out of the bead-â—oul of churches but in the edifying of our selvs neither require we of anie of ours in the confession of their fayth that they either renounce or in one word contest with the church of England whatsoever the world clamours of us this way Our faith is founded upon the writings of the prophets and Apostles in which â—o mention of the church of England is made We deem it our dutie what is found in them to beleev with the heart to righteousnes and to confesse with the tongue to salvation Secondly we accord as far as the Belgick and other Reformed churches with the Church of England in the Articles of faith and heads of Christian religion published in the name of that church and to be found in the Harmonie of the Confessions of fayth Thirdly if by the Church be understood the Catholick Church dispersed upon the face of the whole earth we do willingly acknowledg that a singular part thereof and the same visible and conspicuous is to be found in the land and with it do professe and practise what in us layes communion in all things in themselvs lawfull and done in right order But and if by the word Church be understood a spirituall politick body such as was in her time the Church of Israell and in hers the church of Rome Corinth the seven churches of Asia and others with them partaking of the same Apostolicall constitution and as unto which do apperteyn the Oracles of God Sacraments Censures Government and ministerie ecclesiasticall with other sacred institutions of Christ I cannot but confesse and professe though with great greif that it is to us matter of scruple which we cannot overcome to give that honour unto it which is due from the servants of Christ to the Church of Christ rightly collected and constituted And that there may be place left in the eyes of the prudent Reader for our defence in this case so far forth as equitie and reason will permit he must once and again be intreated by me seriously to weigh with himself and in his heart this one advertizement following That a man may do a thing truely pleasing and acceptable to God it sufficeth not that both the door in his person be accepted of God the thing done commaunded by God and that he do it with good and holy affection before God except withall and first he be possessed of that state condition of life which may affoard him a lawfull calling to that work That a man though never so good with never so good a minde should exercise the office or do though the best works of a Magistrate father of famillie housband steward citizen or messenger except he were first lawfully called and preferred to the state of a Magistrate maister of samâ—lie housband or the like so far were he from deserving anie praise for so doing as on the contrarie he most justly incurâ—ed the censure of great rashnes and violation of all order in familie and common wealth as taking unto himself that honour unto which he was not called of God The same houldeth and that specially in course of Religion which is the specially state of mans life so as if anie either as a Pastour dispence the holy things of the ministeriall Church without a lawfull pastorall calling going before or participate in the same out of a just and lawfull Church-state neither that dispensation nor this participation can be warranted but both the one and other are usurpations and in which is seen not the use but abuse of holy things and confusion of order And as it behoveth everie person first to beleev and know that he is truly a Christian and partaker of the grace of Christ before he can hope to please God in the performance of this or that particular Christian work so doth it also concern everie Christian to provide that he be first possessed of a just and lawfull Church-order before he so much as touch with his least finger the holy things of the Church thereunto proper and peculiar Proper I say peculiar amongst which I do not simplâ—e reckon the hearing of the word which both lawfullie may and necessarily ought to be done not onely of Christians though members of no particular church but even of Infidels prophane persons excommunicates and any others as being that in which no communion spirituall passeth either ecclesiasticall or personall between the teacher heater but according to some union ecclesiasticall or personall going before seeing that Christian saith comes by hearing the gospell by faith union from union communion This thus prem sed I will speak a few things of the Church of England not by way of accusation of it but for our own purgation in the eyes of the godly and equall Reader of the imputed câ—ime of Schism so far as truth and equitie will bear And first seeing that the people of God is materially as they speak the church of God it is required to the constitution of a holy Church of God that the people be holy or saints and sanctified iâ— Christ Iesus truely and internally in regard of God and their own consciences externally and in appearance in respect of others whom it concerns to discern and judg of them according to the word of God and rule of charitie And considering that our question is about the Church externall and visible as it is called we are not so fond or raithaâ— frantâ—ck as to require in respect of others other holynes in the members thereof then that which is visible and externall Now how marvaylous a thing is it and lamentable withall that amongst Christians anie should be found so far at ods with Christian holines as to think that others then apparently holy at the least deserved admittance into the fellowship of Christs church and therewith of Christ Do or can the gratâ—ous promises of God made to the Church the heavenly blessings due to the Church the seales of divine grace given to the Church apperteyn to others then such Are others to be admitted into the familie of God the kingdom of Christ and as it were the suburbs of heaven The Church of God is by him called and destinated to advance his glorie in the holynes of their lives and conversations what then have those to do with it or it with those who as Calvin saith live not but with Gods dishonour For they as the same author both truly and holily affirmeth
and government of the cittie of God and essentiall administration of the same But to give more ful satisfaction to the indifferent reader it seems worth the labour to descend particularly to a few and the same the cheifest objections made on the contrarie behalf And of them that which may and ought to be said touching the Church of Israel its condition compared with the christian churches seems to deserve the first place And touching it first the constitution of the Church of Israel is not to be considered in that whole much lesse apostaticall nation but in holy Abraham from whom it came in whom it was holy as the lump in the first fruits the branches in the holy root and that by vertue of the gratious covenant I will be thy God the God of thy seed first contracted with Abraham himself after renued with his seed whole Israell But now to affirm any such thing of the whole English nation were foolish to prove it impossible 2. God doth not now a daies select seveâ— from others as his peculiar anie whole nation or people as sometimes he did the people of Israel both ecclesiastically civilly but in everie nation they who feare God work righteousnes are accepted of him These in what natioÌ„ soever combyning together in holy covenant and worshiping God after the prescript of his H. word are that holy nation the common wealth of Israel the Israel of God the temple tabernacle of the living God in which he hath promised to dwell these he would have scattered in all places of the world to hould intercourse with the men of the world in the common affairs of this life for their gaming if it may be unto Christ God adding dayly unto the church such as should be saved Whereas on the contrarie unto the church of England whereof all natural English are together at once made members it can hardly be if at all that anie at anie time should be added 3. The verie land of Canaan was legally holy the land of the Lords inheritance whose fruit was to be circumcised her sabbaths kept by the Lords appointment in which alone by divine â—â—ght 〈◊〉 were to be payed And as holy things are not to be mingled with or prostâ—tuted unto prophane so neither was anie place in this land to be permitted unto prophane persons to dwell in The seven prophane nations which formerly had inhabited it were altogether to be destroyed by the Israelites being to possesse it for their inheritance neither was mercie to be shewed them After if any whether born in the land or strangers did ought with an high hand he was to be cut off from among his people Herewith accords that of David the king I will betime destroy all the wicked of the land Lastly â—e that did not seek the Lord God of Israell with all his heart was to be put 〈◊〉 death whether small or great whether man or woman Far be it from Godly princes other potentates in the world to think that it behooveth them in this rigorous manner to deal with their subjects although there want not who partly from a preposterous Iudaizeing zeal partly to serv their own ambition cease not to inculcate unto the kings of the earth above that is meet the examples of the kings of Iudah 4. It is not true that the kings of Iudah or Israel did constâ—â—yn any into the church by force or compel them to undergo the condition of members but only being members to do their dutie All the Israelâ—tes and posteritie of Iakob had their part in the Lords covenant unto which also they were bound to stand under perill of cutting off from the Lords people both spiritually bodily according to the dispensation of the ould Testament in the land of Canaan But of this our question is not for the present That neither is to be considered whether king David Salomon Iehosaphat others did force circumcision other Mosaicall institutions upon the Edomâ—tes Ammonites and others by them subdued held in civill subjection or whether they compelled them by coactive lawes would they nould they fit or unfit into the Church of God That this was so cannot be affirmed with modestie which yet except it so were hath nothing in it which eâ—ther can hurte our cause or help our adversaries Lastly he who well weigheth with himself what legall and typicall holines was in use of old in Israel shadowing out the true spâ—ritual holines and withall by how much both the more clear revelat on of heavenly things more plenteous grace of the spirit â—s afforded to the churches since Christ then was formerly to Israel he shall see manie things making for the tolerating of much in Israel which in us 〈◊〉 plainly intollerable and that God will not use that patience long-suffering towards any church now nor permit or wink at those things in it which for the hardnes of their hearts he bore in that ancient people The parable of the tares Matth. 13. followeth with which as with some thunderboult men both learned and unlearned think us beaten all to fitters But first these words Let both grow togither till the harvest v. 30. froÌ„ which alone they do dispute Christ the Lord doth not expound nor meddle with in the opening of the parable from them therefore nothing firm can be concluded 2. Christ himâ—elf interprets the feild not the Churh but the world v. 38. as also the harvest not the end of the Church but of the world v. 39. And if by the world you understand the Church you must needs say that Christ in the expounding of one parable used another 3. Both the text it self reason of the thing do plainly teach that he doth not speak at all of excommunication which servs for the bettering of the tares but of their finall rooting up to perdâ—tion Lastly admit Christ spake of men apparently wicked in the Church either not to be excommunicated in certain cases which with Gellius Snecanus I confidently denie or not excommunicated as they ought to be therefore to be born of private members the former of which is too ordinarie especially in Churches enjoying peace prosperitie the latter of which the Church not being desperately bent on evill I easily assent to yet doth this place affoard no medicine for our grief which ariseth not from any corrupt or negligent administration of the Churches discipline thorough the carâ—lesnes or want of wisdom it may be too much wisdom such as it is of the administers thereof which are personall things but from the verie constitution of the church it self subject of ecclesiasticall both government and power Yea I ad unto all these things that we for our parts are willing in the busines and controversie in hand to appeal unto the tribunall of this verie parable and that