and as the Israelites children of the promise This understanding must he saith be cast out also and he supposeth he hath a speciall reason for it for Ioh. 8 sayth he this implyeth as if they had beene free by nature Sure the man dreamed they were free as Isaac was by promise being a part of the seed to whom the promise was made the Israelites they were so free by promise as they could tell our Lord but they were not so free but that they must become bond unlesse they were further Rom. 11. made free by the Sonne that maketh men free indeed Rejecting of him they of free became bond and are unto this day and cut off but shall be loosed againe when their hearts shall be turned to the Lord and they grafted into their Olive tree againe But this R. B. saith is a manifest contradiction of the Apostle let that bee made appeare thus hee doth it The Apostle hee sayth by the bond-woman understandeth all them that were borne as Ishmael by fleshly generation hee then as I said must meane Isaac also for he as before is shewed was so borne by fleshly generation though Abraham was old and Sara stricken in yeeres the intent and meaning of the Apostle is far otherwise as before is shewed though he see it not and so rudely to father his erroneous conceit upon the holy Apostle So hee concludeth that all that are not as Isaac by promise c. the Galathians bein Gentiles were as Isaac by promise as before the Gentiles being grafted into the stock of Abraham the Church their seed though lineally descended is owned of God as of old and after the manner of Isaac Children of the promise I suppose the indifferent reader will bee able to see how far R. B. is from making good what he so boldely affirmed And that the Children of the faithfull and such as are of the Church are yet still true and lawfull Members and such as are not to bee denied to come unto Christ of such being his Kingdome The rest of what I set forth in my discourse touching this second positive ground in as much as R. B. happily was in his deepe reducing to some of the three heads before mentioned I shall hold him excused for passing it by If any reader studious of this controversie desire to see further thereof he may please to peruse the discourse And so I proceed as doth R. B. saying my next ground is the Apostles exhorting Parents to bring up their Children in the nurture of the Lord therefore by consequence they were of the Church and so baptized I said indeed the Apostle writing to the whole Church distributeth the same into parts and maketh one part Children which he willeth to be obedient and these were young and to be brought up in the feare of God Now the Apostle writing to the Church would not meddle with them if without I alludeing to that place 1. Cor. 5. whether the allusion were so proper yea or no I leave the reader to judge But about this R. B. taketh paines and travelleth about it and inferreth this and that as absurdities to little purpose following thereof in the meane time never clearing that which followeth of the Jewes Children being left out when they shall be called and grafted into their stocke againe as no more capable to be of the Church which were greatly to lessen their comforts and to diminish of the grace of God to them But minding his promise of reducting he passeth over and commeth in his further proceed to take notice that I said it was an uncomfortable doctrine the excluding the Lineall seed of the faithfull from the Church estate and Covenant as of old for from thence I said it will follow that Parents doe beget beare and bring forth children to the devill c. To this he answereth that by nature we are all the children of wrath Ephe. 2. â— To which I say that indeed the Ephe. were the the Children of wrath before their calling and ingrafting into the Church And further it is true of the seed of the faithfull and of the faithfull themselves that nature considered according to their fallen condition and unregenerate part they may be so minded yea Isaac the particular son of promise was so also But by Covenant and promise neither Isaac nor yet the Israelites were the Children of wrath as were the Gentiles and their seede But were the people and children of God Eze. 16. Hee sayth further that our being of the Church dependeth on our regeneration which I say is a Familistcall strain But he further sayth if all that are not borne members of the Church shall be damned I ask who sayth so Doth R. B. know no difference betwixt these two that in his judgement the one must needs follow the other being out of the Church and so Relatively without God in the world then they must be damned and there is no other way If it were so children would be in a poor case according to his judgement that excludeth them all the church But his drift is to inforce some absurditie on me I shall take notice of it he saith there is in my judgement no true visible Church in the world This fable we had enough of before so he Argueth on thus no church no Children borne in the Church no Salvation He asketh mee if this doctrine of mine be not verie comfortable he may take it to himselfe for sure he is the Master of it And by this fayned retortion he thinketh to heale and comfort the sad thoughts of Parents against that dolefull consequence that their children are not now as of old the children of God but are borne the children of the Devill and so hee skippeth over what I inferred by way of question which it seemeth he had no list to answer R. B. taketh notice of another Argument which hee sayth must needes be answered for hee taketh it I place great confidence in it and indeed so I doe he setteth it downe thus Children of Beleevers are holy therefore they may be baptized 1. Cor. 7. 14. To this scripture opened and applied as in my discourse may bee seene R. B. answereth that the Apostle doth not say the children of beleevers are holy sure he hath little modestie he might as well deny the light at Noone day doth not the Aposay now are they holy v. 14. But what then doth the Apostle say that the unbeleeving wife is sanctified to the beleeving husband that is to his use so as his ox or sheep and other goods are I suppose he so meaneth Could the Corinthians question that a poor Exposition It is likely rather they questioned their lawfull continuance with them because of old the Israelites were to put away their strange wives and the children which were Esra 10. begotten of them which children God did not own for his so they might have conscience of doing so also The partition wall being now
the Waldenses to bee the first fruites to God so he confidently denieth the continuednesse of the Church-State in the World especially under the defection but let his reasons be weighed first is because it was given to him namely the man of sinne that sitteth in the Temple of God to make Warre with the Saints and Thes 2. Rev 13. 7. to overcome them a weighty reason thus must needs die or cease to be because overcome a person is overcome when he yieldeth submitteth himselfe so a Kingdome and a Citie yet they cease not to be Beside it was about particular Saints that were overcome what is this to the ceasing of the whole Church this reason is so lame it had need of another to support it which he addeth to as little purpose if to overcome then they could not coÌ„tinue wonderfull so before yet further he saith if the Church continued he did not overcome them and kill them with the sword Rev. 13. 15. Answer Some of the Members might bee killed Rev. 3. as Antipas was that faithfull Martyr the Church-Estate or all the Churches of Christ killed with the sword and so overcome is reason without sence such as R. B. himself will not believe when he hath better considered of it if some of the Members of R. B. Church were killed with the sword yet he would thinke his Church might continue yea if all of them were so killed yet he cannot but think the Church might continue some where else but belike feareing his reasons to be weake he hath a further reason to prove the Church did not so continue Those that worshipped the Beast were such whose names were not written in the Lambes booke of life therefore the Church Rev. 13. it could not continue what the strength and force of this reason is is beyond my capacity till it be explained reprobate men worshipped the Beast so they worshipped the Calves of old and Idolls of Gold and Silver and their Gods â—â—se 13 2. Psal 106. 36. 38. â—er 2. 28. were as their Cities what is that to the ceasing of the Church R. B. had need goe to Schoole to learne stronger reasons it is no marvell he should be so confident he fulfilleth the Proverb none so bold as bâ—ind Bayard but he goeth on further in this his perversenesse and speaketh of the Greeks and would make his Reader beleeve I hold no Church-Estate remaining among them because I said there is little difference in their defection and the Romanist and they will stand and fall together being measur'd by a like measure Answer they will so stand together as that the Church-Estate will remaine in the one and other whatsoever R. B. is able to say to the contrary after this hee taketh notice of what else where he consealeth of the Chuches continuance else where might have added in a pure way I said I supposed none was able to make appeare such a continuednesse to have been in the World if any could I said and say still I should be glad and were it not a matter to be glad of it would not R B. be glad also happily he would be sorry because his new way would bee disparaged yea indeed overthrowne and he foreced to be baptised a fourth time But having thus gone on he saith who can beleive his exposition of Esay 9. seeing he to witt his opposite testifieth that none is able to make the truth thereof of what of the Church in purity her continuance but in defection under the Greeks Romanist it may be made appear where will R. B. be then among those false Prophets he speaketh of but further here he saith it must follow right or wrong that I have given a false Interpretation of Esay 9. and also of all the Scriptures to prove the perpetuity of the Church and none shall bee able to cleare me But where is that true Interpretation of R. B that might informe his Reader he hath not studied it yet unlesse it be that the Church is ceased let the Scripture say what it will because otherwise his opinion cannot stand so he proceedeth that thus having confuted my self he thinketh it needlesse to spend time in the confutation of it It was time spent indeed vainely for him to meddle unlesse he had better understood what he tooke in hand after he falleth a complaining of wrong done for being blamed for not beleeving the Churches continuance in the World then it seemeth they doe not beleeve the continuance but the cessation they doe they had need of better ground to beleeve against so many cleare Scriptures then yet R. B. hath found out but how ever I did not mistake their judgement in that I said there was no ground for their practice till they did beleeve such a cessation which they doe and so their practice is grounded on a grosse errour and a flat denyall of the Scripture cleare it if they can but having so marvellously quited himselfe as he thinketh he complayneth further for being accused for making Christ a Widower Answ If the visible Church was Christs wife and it died as you beleeve and hold and remained without being for a long season was not Christ a widdower then and all that time if he would but be pleased to minde the 5th of the Ephes he would confesse it Christ sometime had a Church but he lost it is he then to day as hee was yesterday observe what tautologie hee here useth or non-sense perpetuity and succession which I would not mention for I thinke he is no great Artist as well as my self save only he ubraided me with it in his Epistle he asketh me whether â— would have them to beleeve that I cannot beleeve my selfe Ans I can beleeve and doe the Churches continuance in the World under the defection of Antichrist if they did beleeve so too it would please me well and sure there would be no place for their unwarranted proceed But this of being charged with making Christ a Widower sticketh neere his stomack hee cannot digest it therefore he hath a lame consequence about it ere he let it passe If Christ be a Widdower if he have not alwaies a visible Church in the World then hee inferreth that there is no salvation out of the visible Church Indeed ordinarily the learned have held there is not but extraordinarily there may but what then thinking belike there was litle in this he addeth none can be saved which are not first united and made one with Christ whether he meane union of Faith or Order is hard to be said suppose union of Faith what is that to the question in hand and I would aske R. B. what shall become of Infants but because he propoundeth it as an inconvenience attending the holding the perpetuity of the Church and so asketh me the question which he might have spared till he could resolve what should become of Children dying in Infâ—ncy I shall answer that John Hus and Ierome of
suppose any indifferent Chapman can see into it I shall onely make a short reply to what is excepted against in my discourse First he excepteth against this that Christ should be said to be a widower if his visible Church died and ceased to be any more in the world to this I have answered before and referre the reader to it Christ the husband of his Church must be a Widower if his Church died To this hee sayth wee differ not in the matter or substance No that is strange what is his reason He saith the Church is either in heaven or earth so I say is a mans wife when she is dead either in the world or out of it But hee saith Christ hath a Church though no visible one but our question is of the visible that is Christs wife Ephe. 5. If that die or died Christ must be a widower sure But he saith his Church became Invisible then it changed the nature of it But he thinketh it is cleare that some time it was so invisible Reve. 6. 13. 14. but sure he wanteth a cleare judgement as in other things so in this Scripture heaven departed away as a scrole when it is rolled together A scrole is a visible substance when it is rolled up though not so visible as when unrolled heaven the estate of Christ Church departed away no otherwise then as a scrole which is the same and continueth it being rolled as unrolled indeed he is visible rolled more visible unrolled R. B. his inference namely that the Church is not alway visible is unsound Till the eight seale was powred forth Heaven or the Church was as a scrole unrolled so as the things therein written might be seene so was the Church while it remained now pure But after that time it departed as a scrole rolled up so was the case and in some sort is still of the Church under deepe defection The restoring of the Church to puritie is the unrolling of the scrole begun and yet a doing he addeth but to what purpose I suppose he knoweth not Reve. 11. 7. 12. Further he saith the Church was hid in the wildernesse for a time and times and halfe a time But from whom is it that she was thus hid from the Serpen I but if she be hid she is preserved and hath her being and having a being she is visible nothing can be more plaine She is hid from the rage of the serpent from the crueltie of the enemie but visible to her friends and to the members and those that in good will doe seeke her If E. B. in some danger of the enemie as in the time of the Bishops should have retired to some place of secresie and there have hid himselfe was he therefore to his wife and other friends a man invisible because so hid Truely any man of reason may see to what purpose these Scriptures serve his turne and that they are fully against him and his opinion which he bringeth them for and do prove the continuednesse of the Church and visibillitie of it which he opposeth In the wildernesse the Church continued if by wildernesse hee will not understand the state of defection he must then understand by wildernesse private places for other sence I suppose he cannot finde I he choose the latter as I suppose he will If he had taken or would take paines to traverse the world If he could not finde the Church remaining in Europe in Asia Affrica or America he might finde her for in the wildernesse she is to be preserved as before and there finding of her he might have lighted his candle and beene baptized and added to the Church And he should not have beene put upon such a necessitie as to begin Baptisme by an unbaptized person acting of it without any Commission or warrant from Christ But hee and others of his minde had rather spare his paines and labour of seeking and searching the wildernesse for her and without Scripture or word of God beleeve and hold she is seased out of the world and gone to heaven and must be so raised and restored in the earth againe by this way of their own devising which never came into the minde of Almightie God His second exception is to what I propounded that if Rev. 7. 31. Baptisme was lost and fallen out of the world none but a Christ a Moses an Elias or at least a prophet from heaven might restore the blinde Jewes could see this that it was unlawfull for any other To this hee sayth that he granteth that an ordinance lost and fallen out of the world none but a Christ a Moses Elias or a prophet from heaven can raise it Baptisme was thus lost hee acknowledgeth when did Christ Moses Elias or any Prophet from Heaven come to raise it againe where are they or who be they that we may doe them reverence Sure he can shew none such But this hee rhinketh may serve beleevers having Christ the Word and Spirit so he sayth may doe it Indeed they that have Christ Moses Elias or prophets from heaven may doe great things but alas these being in heaven are not at their beck It is likely he meaneth they have their word there was never any held any error so great but did assume to have that and the Spirit also But supposing to have Christ the Word and Spirit how then doth he prove such may raise a lost ordinance without speciall Commission he quoteth foure Scriptures Matth. 18. 19. 20. 11. 11. Luke 17. 28. Rom. 10. 6. We will view the Scriptures Matth. 18. 19. 20. If two of you agree and againe where two or three are gathered in my Name c. To which I say that it is not meant two or three unbaptized persons such have no warrant Commission or promise in this kinde Cornelius and his family and friends were two three such yet they must send for Peter Two or three is Acts 10. 2. 5. Ast. 2. 41. or usually and I judge truely taken for the Church two or three unbaptised persons I deny to be a Church let E. B. that would have an example of baptising Infants shew an example or any ground from Scripture of a unbaptised Church There is cleare examples of Beleevers being Baptized and added to the Church where there was a Ministrie of Christ however where there were Baptized persons to Baptize them but alas for beleevers so called to become a Church being unbaptized is without all warrant of scripture I conceive I shall â—ot neede to wade further in answer for doubtlesse this Scripture will be judged by the reader to bee impertinent to his purpose The 11. Matth. 11. Luke 7. 28. both which containe one matter are the next They speake of John and that the least in the Kingdome of God is greater then he though he were great indeed The force is suposed to lie here greater and so may baptize as hee did without Warrant or Commission though he had
so that upon his ground nor tender conscience shall ever be able to satisfie it selfe in a stayed condition and if by a lye R. B. shall goe about to satisfie any as he pretendeth that was the cause that moved him to answer my discourse it will never doe it such are not much beholding to him for neither they nor the truth needeth any mans lie but I will forbeare to trouble thee further Courteous Reader Thine in the service of Love R. B. A SHORT ANSWERE TO A Passage in R. B. his Epistle to the READER IN his Epistle he telleth the Reader that there needeth nothing to be said to overthrow the matter of the discourse then what is contayned in it and this he saith is in a matter wherin the whole building consisteth but what now if R. B. misse in this and be found to be deceived as he was in his former Baptismes then the whole building may nay must be granted to stand It is in the perpâ—tuity of the Church-Estate under the New Testament and so of Baptisme by which I difference the matter thereof The further saith I make Baptisme to depend on the Church but what then then he inserreth that unlesse I be able to shew the continuednesse of the Church of Christ till these dayes I cannot be assured that the Baptisme there is the Ordinance of God But what if I can shew this where is R. B. then but he saith pag. 2 3. I confesse I know none nor doe I beleeve that any can shew any such continuance But is worth the observing the evill dealing of the man his willingnesse to deceive hee knoweth and the Reader may observe I produced Scriptures to prove the perpetutie of the Church in the World such as he nor any other are able to avoyde or shew another sence of them than that for which they were produced I made an Inference from that in the 13. Heb. whereat he and others were much offended Then I distinguished thus that this Estate of Christs-Church continued under Antichrists exaltation or else it continued somewhere else as a part from under that deffection for somewhere it must continue that it continued any where else as in a pure way I sayd I did beleeve none could make it appeare and therefore it must need continue under Antichrists exaltation and that it did not continue other where than under the deffection of Antichrist I alleadged those Scriptures of the Universalitie of the defection and the Waldenses being the first fruites to God which could not be if the Church had continued any where pure which it did not but in defection it continued without being made null what ever R. B. thinketh to the contrary now what could be more plaine than this as in my discourse may be seen With what face then doth R. B. feed his Reader with such a fable and so abuse his opposite and triumph in his owne folly and cry victorie truly he in this dealeth with his opposite as the Divell dealt with our Lord keeps back a mayne part and so shewing a mind to smother the truth and keep it in unrighteousnesse I will appeale to any indifferent Iudgement if it be not fully declared what is before said and that I hold the continuednesse of the Church-Estate under the defection but not in a pure way and if R. B. or any other thinke this a new opinion it will but shew their Ignorance for as learned and godly men are my Leaders herein as those hee catcheth at for advantage touching Baptisme of Children being a humane Ordinance namely Mr. Junius Duplices Lord of Morney the harmony of the Churches confession and others The holy Scriptures I shewed did hold forth the continuation and perpetuity of the visible Church a plant of Gods owne planting not to be rooted out for ever as it had continued from Abraham to Moses from Moses to Christ so it should continue for ever for proofe whereof I set forth sundry scriptures as in my discourse may be seen To which R. B. in stead of granting or denying entereth upon a discourse to prove a matter neither in question nor yet ever by any denyed and in the end without shewing any right sense or meaneing of those Scriptures the better to informe his Reader he flatly denieth the sense of his opposite and calleth him false Prophet and on that hath spoken presumptuously in the name of the Lord a heavie charge he onely instanceth in those two Scriptures that are propheticall Esay 9. 7. 59. 27. happily hee might feare there might be something in the other so he passed them by But thus he proceedeth to reason that if the visible Church of Chrrist hath not had a perpetuall interrupted succession in the World ever since the first planting of it till these dayes though the Prophesie bee true yet the sense of his opposite is false here by the way I note how R. B. corrupteth his opponents conclusion with words of his owne coining which words indeed are contradictorie and plaine non-sense in regard of the thing in hand the matter in hand is the perpetuity or continuednesse of Christs Church in the world he commeth with perpetuall interrupted succession this succession he hath often in his answer wherein hee just speakes like a Parret perpetuity and succession cannot stand together for where there is perpetuity of a thing there is no place for succeeding succeeding or succession may be in regard of an Office one giveth place another succeedeth and taketh place but cannot be so with the Church as in my discourse may be seen it may increase and decrease but it alwayes abideth for ever so as his succession is an Ignoramus if not a Bull But he commeth to answer hee will Psal 121. 1. make my owne matter confute mee I said the defection was universall I so say still as said the Waldenses in regard of purity were the first fruits unto God he saith so too But it is much he will acknowledge them so to be hee may wrong his cause ere he is aware they were not Disciples by totall dipping the French Churches proceeded of them R. B. might have been baptised by them they were the first fruites as he confesseth so as he and his toall dippers cannot be it or them but where did I speake of and prove the universality of the defection not to prove the utter cessation of the Church-State R. B. cannot be so blind but to manifest that it continued not in a pure way as a part from the defection but under the defection I said it must needs there continue and the errour and absurditie of such an opinion I desired any to shew if they could so as had not R. B. been a vain Caviler he would not have left the plaine matter and drift as he hath done and by leaving out the distinction with the drift made a part as if it were some other thing But now further as he granteth the largenesse of the defection and
Frague and other holy Confessors of Iesus Christ they had union with Christ by Faith which is first and maine yea they had relation to the Church though in deep defection so as he publisheth his hope in vaine he saith further if they were united to Christ then Christ may have a spouse although no visible Church in the World but he doth but say it wee may chuse whether we will beleeve him It is as much non sense as if we should say Christ may have a Spouse though hee have none sure R. B. grew dull and much forgot himselfe The next Section containeth for the most part tautology the man delighting to sport himselfe like a foole with his owne bable onely he had a minde to aske me a question which I shall answer in convenient place R. B. Proceedeth further and hath another bout concerning the perpetuity of the Church carrying along with him his devised fable which he still fathers on mee without which he can say nothing he tells his Reader that I say seeing none can make it appeare elsewhere he might have added in purity he saith I say it is likely it continued under Antichrist so it seemeth he knew my drift and did of purpose wrest and pervert my words But he here demandeth how it can bee probable why because a little before I spake of the universality of the deection I did so to shew no Churches remained a part in a pure way therefore I said there that which hee also mentioneth here that in that regard the Waldenses were the first fruits to God they comming first out of defection into purity but the 2 Thess 2. troubleth the man much and that I alleadge it to prove the Churches continuance under the defection of Antichrist This is a riddle to R. B. and he is as a in a maze but hee answereth plainely here that Temple here spoken of where the man of sinne sitteth and is worshipped cannot bee taken for the Church of God but what is his reason because it is said verse the 3. the man of sinne is not revealed till first there be a departing then v. 9 10. he speaketh of his deceiveablenesse in the way of his comming he asketh himselfe a question and maketh himselfe answer such as it is in whom saith hee not in the Church but in them that perish as if many of the Church might not perish sure he forgetteth the Parable of the ten Virgins that five were wise and five foolish Mat. 25. but doth R. B. indeed thinke that the mystery of iniquity rose not in but out of the Church that is a rare opinion and singular judgement which I never heard of before and most contrary to the truth for the Churches might have continued till now in purity but for the working of that mysterie and beside I would faine learne how it should be a mystery if simply in the World not at all in the Church I had like to have passed by his reason the falling away is first the revealing is after what of this when the man of sinne which began to worke in the Church in the Apostles time had got some strength then he shewed himselfe more fully but he saith it must needs follow that seeing the persons the matter of the Church are departed from the Faith therefore it must needs follow they are not in any wise to bee esteemed the Church of God he doth but say this also we need not beleeve him Psal 106 28. Eâ—â—ch 16 unles we will but sure this departing was not totall like their dipping Iudah was departed from God and followed Idoles yet with Iudah was Gods Church so it may be and Eze. 16. is under the defection for all his saying in no wise it cannot be he would further inforce it from my judgement about the Beast and because they that wonder after the Beast and follow him are such as are not written in the Lambs booke of life It may be I am dull sure I understand not where the force of this reason lieth in regard of the matter in hand what if I doe hold the Church may consist of such many of whom may perish I thinke the Scripture will maintaine me in it But he hath a wonderfull conclusion I doe not say it is presumptuous but sure it is blasphemous his exposition of 2 Thess 2. He saith the Temple there is no more the Temple of God than Antichrist that sitteth there is God nor no otherwise to be esteemed nor hath any on more reason to affirme the one than the other see if he doe not taxe the Spirit ir selfe for the Spirit with more reason affirmeth it then R. B. hath reason so arrogantly to speak as he doth It were good for all sober minded men to beware of such desperate contradictors of the word of God weigh but the matter seriously is there no more reason to affirme the one than the other why doth the Spirit say he doth sit in the Temple of God what Temple hath God in the World but his Church and that is called his Temple every where The mystery of inquity it rose up in the Church how 2 Thes 2. â— long it was before the Church was destroyed by it R. B. cannot tell at the first it was of the same nature being weake as after when it was strong and was exalted to that height all which weighed it will appeare that R. B. had little reason to speake presumptuously as he hath done he taketh what he hath said for a full confutation and that it cannot bee any such continuednesse of the Church and most impudently fathering a lie upon me he concludeth this matter It must bee as R. B. pag. 2. saith that under the defection of Antichrist it could not continue but where are any such words in page 2. or in any part of my discourse no marvell he that durst be so bold with the Scripture should deale so by me sure his Church if it continue till they know it will deale with him for it for without not within is place for all liers Thus I have Rev. 22. 15. followed him to and fro in this particular of the Churches perpetuity and continuednesse in the World particularly under the defection of Antichrist I doubt not but it will appeare to be a truth for all R. B. hath said or is able further to say to the contrary that he beleeveth it not I suppose it doth plainely appeare that they in their way have no ground to goe on till this beleeved namely the cessation of the Church that their practice is grounded upon the denyall of a truth fully held forth in the Scriptures of the Churches perpetuity let them shift it if they can and in their next let them informe the Reader the true sense and right meaning of those Scriptures by mee alleadged and I only advise they take heed of falling into some familisticall straine I have done Now he proceedeth to
Baptisme and saith suppose the Church hath continued then Baptisme by which the matter is difference't coÌ„tinueth also so it is probable his Baptisme is the Baptisme of Christ derived from thence R. B. hath forgot his question he asked me before and merrily said it was a bull but what thinketh hee is not the derivation good and rationall he would have it taken notice of that the best ground his opposite hath is but probability But it were well if he would once leave his fabling I said it was more than probable and I thinke that is certaine if I mistake not But further he saith seeing I hold Baptisme dependeth on the Church he addes true and so maketh a hinge for his doore to goe up on I would faine know where he learned in the Scripture this true and false with reference to the Church and Baptisme it will trouble him much to finde it the Church is either the Church of God or it is not and so Baptisme is either Christs Baptisme or it is not but of this by the way in the next hee will happily shew it then he proceedeth and taketh notice that I hold not the Church of Rome the Church of God but that State I hold to be the mother of fornicaetion Sodome and Egypt he thinketh it must needs follow that the Church of Rome hath not the Baptisme of Christ he is so frequent in the change of Termes as I might make a booke of it I write of the Church and Baptisme the Ordinances of God continuing under that Roman State in that defection hee is alwayes up with the Church of Rome and the Baptisme thereof hee cannot reach higher in his understanding but it must bee the same and from that that I hold the Church of Rome not the Church of God hee will make it follow whether it will or no that the Church of Rome hath not the Baptisme of Christ will he make it apappeare that Baptisme doth not remaine the Ordinance of Christ under that State who hath said the Church of Rome This he will make to appeare by a lame Argument thus if the Church of Rome hath not continued what meaneth the man it never was the Church of God although God had a Church in the Citie of Rome therefore Baptisme by which the matter of the Church is differenced hath not continued in the Church of Rome sure this is a bull the Church I indeed hold continued in the defection and under the Roman State though R. B. fathered a lie upon me and said I held it could not there continue and as tâ—e Church so Baptisme by which the matter of the Church is differenced not pure matter from corrupt but matter from that which is none at all as for true and false they are words of his own coyning as before not found in the word of God So as here hee taketh occasion to answer a passage in in my discourse wherein I desired any to shew â—he errour or absurdity huâ—t or damage tâ—aâ— commeth oâ— holdiâ—g the Church and ordinances to have continued under the defection c. as in my discourse may be seene R B here saith I may easily see it from whaâ— I have written my self well what is it This it is that Baptisme differenceth the true matter from the false notorious fabler and falsiner againe in his inference if the Bapâ—isme of Rome instead of in the defection and thus he goeth over and over in his termes be the Baptisme of Christ which differenceth the true matter from the false yet more of this coyne It should be which differenceth the matter of the Church from that which is no matter and the matter bejng so laid downe Where then is R. B. his great absurdity that I may so easily see sure hee may more easily see his folly and base dealing without true and false and such words of his owne foysting in his inference and pretended absurdity vanisheth in the ayre but what Tautologie he here useth of this true and false it is much to see men love the bratts of their owne braine The summe of that great absurdity that R. B. can shew of holding as before is set forth is only this Baptisme under the defection differenceth the matter thereof the Church from that which is no matter at all such as are the Iewes Mahometans and other Heathen and doth it not and this is his great absurditie It were well for R. B. if no greater did follow of his holding the visible Church of Christ to be ceased out of the World his close this Section a is seeming contradiction he supposeth in my tenent wherein he still abuseth me and my Reader he saith I affirme Rome is the Mother of Fornication I doe so and also that Rome is the true Spouse of Christ where have I said so in all my discourse he cannot end one Section without fathering some false matter on me But with the leave of R. B. for more full satisfaction to the Readâ—r I shall shew that there is a different consideration to be had of the Church in defection and that it may be minded diversly either in a good sense or in an evill though he happily cannot see it so as in on considerasion according to the coâ—rupt defiled condition it may be called Sodome and Aegypt the Mother of Fornication and yet in some other sence and minding the Church of God R. B. will hoâ—d himselfe both a Saint and also a sinner but this in a diverse consideration and respect Iudah was the Church of God and yet she is called Sodome and Gomorrah and an Harlot and Laodicea the Church of Christ Esay 11. Eâ—e 16. Râ—v 3. yet in an other weighing such matter as was fit to be spued out the great absurdity before lieth in R. B. his lame understanding And now he commeth after his great travell to conclude this matter thus that seeing true Baptisme differenceth the true matter from the false observe that without true and false he is aground and cannot stir but he still impudently will father this on P. B. and yet further saith I say so in my Epistle where there is no syllable to any such purpose he proceedeth in his conclusion the Baptisme of the Church of Rome is not the Baptisme oâ— Christ that differenceth the true matter from the false a very worthy conclusion a bratt of his owne braine pleaseth him well and so I leave him to hug his true and false I shall now desire the indifferent Reader to mind whether R. B. hath said any thing to purpose against the perpetuity of the Church yea or no or against the sence of the Scriptures by me alleadged to prove the said perpetnity And also neither I did not say right that there is no ground for their practice till they hold this that the Church is ceased and not to be found in the World which it seemeth to be very playne by R. B. that they doe hold and so lay for
the foundation of their practice and proceed a foule errour no marvell they bee no more stable and setled but still in their changes how forcible are right words but what doth wrong reasoning profit it will never satisfie any tender conscience certainly R. B. Proceedeth to Baptisme and taketh notice of Iob. 6. 25. what I said that if the Church be ceased then Baptisme is ceased here now he is something more calme he wants his true and false to help him out to that he answereth that although Baptisme were ceased so as there were no baptised person in the World yet as long as Baptisme is found in the word with a Commission to doe it he doth but beg the thing in question never answering to what I objected in this case here the 28th Matth must be alleadged but to what purpose I suppose none can tell Baptisme he saith may be obtained without any such speciall Commission as had Iohn if an unbaptised person shall doe it R. B. will excuse him of running before hee is sent though God never speake one word to any such so to doe But he saith it will follow no more to be unlawfull so to doe then it will follow that because Abraham might Ier. 23. 21. 7. 22. not circumcise himselfe and Males before circumcision was instituted and he commanded so to doe therefore the Israelites see the weakenesse of the man in his Argument he should say therefore the Philistimes or other Heathen might not circumcise themselves after Indeed so he had overthrowne himselfe for they might not though Circumcision was instituted and commanded yet they must goe to Israel as I urged the going to Sion and there lighting their candle as the Heathen of old did to Israel which he passeth by with silence here is R. B. his Argument Circumcision is instituted and commanded therefore the Philistâ—mes Aethiopians and other Heathen might circumcise themselves and their Males I suppose hee holdeth not so if he doth hee holdeth contrary to the truth and this is the very case which R. B. pleaseth himselfe withall but hee proceedeth further and argueth upon the point of necessity It was necessary for John to have Commission as it was necessary to have a patterne for the first building of the Temple but here hee evadeth from the Commission to the Pattern and so deceiveth the Reader I would faine know of R. B. whether they had not a speciall Commission to build the second time It is sure they were not onely stirred up but bid goe up Hag. 1. 7. 8. and build the house and God would be â—ercifull to them But now R. B. tell me because there was a Temple described in the word and that was ruined and overthrown might they build it againe before God bid them might they build it in any place and which is more and indeed to the life of the matter might any but those of Israel build it I am sure it was said to others it was not foâ— them so to doe though the patterne was in the word as in like manner it belongeth not to unbaptised persons to baptise Esra 4. 3. though the patterne be in the word it is onely for such as are baptised To that objected that the Commission 28th Mat. It was onely to baptised persons and intendeth none other R. B. answereth it requireth all persons as are made Disciples or shall be to be baptised if hee had inferred that it is most likely there shall bee a continuance of baptised persons in the World that so his pleasure might bee observed he had said something but he saith Christs voyce must be obeyed therefore he concludeth a necessity to doe as they doe run before they are sent baptised they must be why have they not a little patience baptised persons there are none in the World yet another lie must be fathered on P. B. to make good the matter hee believeth none in a pure way but under the defection there might be some alwayes found R. B. might know I reasoned from their ground and practice and not from my owne judgement if he were not blind or a vaine Caviller as I told him before But it appeareth to be true that R. B. indeed holdeth so that at some time lately there were no baptised persons in the World And yet Baptisme might be raised againe well enough there being none how then why saith hee in the. Time 2. â—6 The Scripture is profitable and serveth for instruction in all righteousnesse to perfect the man of God unto all good workes as is there declared if to all saith hee then to this of Baptisme R. B. upbraided me for misapplying the Scripture but it were well if he had first seene the beame in his owne eye and cast it out truly this is a wonderfull thing that so rare a practice should have no better ground the Scripture did not furnish the Heathen to circumcise themselves to erect a Church among themselves to offer Sacrifice yet these were good workes It was a good worke to build the Temple yet the Heathen were not furnished to doe it as before God is the God of order which when it is neglected for breach of due order he is offended he is displeased as in the case of Vzzah it was not for Saul to offer sacrifice though it were a good 2. Sam. 6. 6. 1. Sam. 13. 12. worke as it is not for an unbaptised person to baptise though R. B. doe foolishly inforce it by vaine confidence the Iron was dull that he needed to put to his strength But let us see what it is he thus confidently affirmeth that as at the first Iohn Baptist at the command of God baptised others though unbaptised himselfe even so according to his example written for our learning we are taught what to doe in like case of necessitie he at length is arrived at a faire haven necessitie hath no law being in a great straite indeed brought upon themselves by their erroneous ground of holding no baptised persons in the world after the example of disobedient Saul being in great straite they are bold to baptise others being unbaptised themselves our Lord did not so though he were the King of the Church as I told them before which he tooke no notice of but yet further he saith according to Rom. 15. 4. A disciple at the command of Jesus Christ where is that command in the 28. of Matthew this serveth at every turne as true and false did before it is foure times alleadged in this short section be like to fill up that he might seeme to say some thing but it may not be counted Tautologie but doth the 28. of Matthew command unbaptised disciples to baptise others sure R. B. is mistaken and never able to make any such thing appeare If any say Johns example is extraordinary and so not exemplarie he answereth theirs is an extraordinary case truely so it is without the rule of the Scriptures but it may
be Davids eating of the Shew-bread will stand them in stead Indeed in the case of extreame hunger to preserve life it might in exstravagant courses such as cannot be warranted by the Scriptures some have done as here R. B. doth catch at Davids example upon some case of necessitie to doe that which is not lawfull this is their case he saith and hereby he saith they justifie their practise but how well let all men judge But sure R. B. forgot himselfe in this or otherwise he dissenteth from others of his judgement There were baptised persons in Holland of a hundred yeeres discent and more to have repaired thither were more easie then for the Eunuch to Acts 8. have gone to Jerusalem as easie it was for them to have gone thither as for our Lord to have gone over Jordan to Matth. 3. 13. John If R. B. question their baptisme it is much happily he may because they practise not totall dipping then sure it is likely the restoration is but of two or three yeeres standing a very rare businesse and how rare are baptised persons he concludeth there needs no new commission to raise it againe we may beleeve him if we will All the rest of what I wrote concerning this matter R. B. passeth over not finding as is likely what to answer in speciall that which I declared concerning corruption not making a nullitie he concludeth this matter with saying their practise is not like that of Nadab and Abihu and setting children against persons of yeeres he would make as if his opponent were against the baptising of beleevers or persons of yeeres because he holdeth the baptising of Infants a fallacie and fond conceit as if such of old as should hold the circumcision of males at eight dayes must needs be against the circumcision of men of yeeres But I must tell R. B. that it was unlawfull to rircumcise those of the ten tribes when they were of yeeres that had beene circumcised though in Apostacie in their infancie And this is indeed the true case betweene R. B. and his opponent if he could or would see it New things are very pleasing and many are much taken with them as is R. B. with dipping about which he taketh great paines produceth many Scriptures and would seeme to be so strong as nothing is able to withstand him First he saith I am greatly offended he doth but surmise for he cannot gather it out of my discourse he sheweth what dipping he meaneth total dipping of the whole man over head and eares he pretendeth this is the commandement of God wherein the 28. of Matthew this now must serue the turne as true and false did before but sure it is a rare thing to gather it thence for if dipping were there injoyned yet sure totall dipping cannot be It is not said goe dip all nations totally or over head and eares certainely this totall dipping is some voluntary religion Cor. 12. Rom. 6. Matth. 28. 10. Mar. 1. 9. Mat. 3. 16. Ioh. 3. 23. Act. 8. 38. having a shew of wisdome as mens owne wayes have he quoteth many places and sundry examples but sure the man is as one that looketh through a greene-glasse he seeth all of the same colour all and every of these Scriptures and examples are for totall dipping the whole man in matter and burying of him under water and I appeale to the judgement of the indifferent Reader whether there be any the least syllable to any such purpose no marvell he should check me for not beleeving of it and so confidently to father his fancie and erroneous conceit on the holy Scriptures and which is more to hold all the Churches and Christians in the World to be unbaptised but those two or three that have been thus totally dipped he is in a high straine if he can keep it I hold not dipping so necessary but that a person baptised by sprinkling must needs therefore be esteemed unbaptised I indeed acknowledge I hold washing the maine as before I declared in my discourse and washing by the way of dipping or by the way of sprinkling to have in them the substance of the Ordinance being wayes of washing he is pleased to take notice of the Reasons I alleadged which is first that springling can be but a defect in the quantity of the Element I said it is a wonderfull thing a nullity should follow thereof and is it not to this he saith that he wondereth any should esteeme that an Ordinance of Christ which Christ never ordained but this is only to beg the matter unproved but the 28. Ma. 19. serveth still Christ hee saith never ordained sprinkling but dipping therefore sprinkling in Baptisme is none of Christs Ordinance and so by consequence a nullitie Thus easily in his conceit and fully in his opinion he hath made the Baptisme of not a few persons in the world If I should make the like against his totall dipping he would not receive it though it be his owne Christ never ordained totall dipping by an unbaptised person Ergo it is none of Christs but a nullity and by consequence R. B. is yet unbaptised He taketh notice of a second reason I set forth and that is of placing the substance of an Ordinance in the Criticknesse of a word to this he answereth that he placeth the substance of every Ordinance in its conformity to the word so as defect and corruption make a nullity I suppose he holdeth but he propoundeth a case for discovery sprinkling is no more to bee esteemed Gods Ordinance then to prick the finger was to bee esteemed Circumcision and he that would not take that for Circumcision might as well bee accounted a Critick as hee that will not take sprinkling for Baptisme sure R. B. hath but little aime in his paralell sprinkling at the most is but a defect in the quantitie of the Element for all this I will make a case and leave the Reader to judge of it if any unskilfull Circumciser should have left some little part of the foreskin through oversight should it have been a nullity and no circumcision I suppose nay so if any shall misse in washing by shortnesse in the quantity of the Element yet it may bee Christs Ordinance notwithstanding for that such a defect or corruption doth not make a nullity thereof And if any dipper in R. B. his way should through some neglect or other accident not dip the Crowne of the head as well as all the rest of the body under water I suppose R. B. had but little reason if he should not account it true Baptisme in his way notwithstanding he proceedeth and here I note how fairely I dealt with them and how fouly hee hath dealt with me I set downe their opinion so right as that hee doth not goe about to mend it he for the most part fathereth this and the other falsity upon me and by change of phrases altereth often the whole matter for dipping in Baptising and
Gods Church for mocking did Type out the unbeleeving Jewes that rejected the Son of God as indeed it did if R. B. held so I agree with him but sure he meaneth some other matter and therefore he goeth on further and sayth The free woman Sarah pointing out the new Covenant and Hierusalem But can R. B. put no difference betweene the new Covenant and the Church in his judgement that is from above and her Sonne Christ Some of the Covenant or Church meaneth he sure Christ came of the Church of the Jewes as it is written Rom. 9. 5. R. B. will not account that Hierusalem from above he will confound himselfe and lose all if he take not heed before he get out of the Allegorie or bring his manifest declaration to light he addeth Christ the promised seed Gala. 3. 16. R. B. doth not take Christ here personally for then it must be exclusively I suppose Heb. 2. 13. to all others but he taketh it I judge mystically and so inclusively for him and all his the Children which God hath given him whether Jewes or Gentiles males or females young or old For his saying in this place not to seeds as of many but to seed as of one that is Christ Is as I conceive not of Iewes apart as on seed Gentiles apart as another so seeds but both together in one to wit in Christ as it is written Rom. 4. 16. I paralell this place with that in the 1. Cor. 12. 12. where the Apostle speaketh after a like manner I leave the reader to judge of it But to go on he saith as Christ verse 2â— the seed so believers born from above or by promise sure he meaneth actuall beleevers so as to be capable of totall dipping certainely Isaac was not so borne from above when he came first into the world and yet then he was the sonne of promise and Abrahams spirituall seed v. 29. 28. He further urgeth that we as Isaac was are children of the promise we Gentiles we Galathians are as Isaac children of the promise how was he by descending from Abraham of Sara Lineally can any thing be brought more plaine for the manifest right of Children to be of the Church and within the Covenant then that which R. B. would bring to exclude them Isaac the sonne of of Abraham by Sara before he came into the world when he was an Infant of aday old was the childe of promise aed so were all the seed of the Iewish Church of old witnesse the Apostle Peter Acts 3. 25. In like manner we Gentiles are as Isaac so children of the promise and have Abraham for our father and the father of all our seed the blessings of Abraham being common the Gentiles through Rom. 3. 36. faith as the Iewes lost it through unbeleife God to be the God of the Gentiles by speciall relation and Covenant and the God of all their seed as of old he was to Isaac of Abraham to all the generation that followed But R. B. supposing the matter not to be yet cleare enough travelleth further in the businesse and saith that to close up the full intent of the spirit the Apostle ver 29. 30. saith that the carnall and fleshly seed Ishmaell for persecuting was with his mother cast out out of Abrahams house the Church Well now R. B. draweth nigh to his manifest declaration which is that by their casting out was foreshewen that when Christ the true Isaac should be born here he seemeth to understand that place Gala. 3. 16. personally so exclusively And the barren Esay 54 1 woman the new Covenant or Gospell A rare understanding The barren woman I had thought had been the Gentiles and sure so it is and not the Gospell or new Covenant for did not the Gospel alwayes in the sence R. B. is now in opening his Allegorie alwayes bare Children to God sure it did witnesse the Catalogue of the faithfull Heb. 11. Further he saith then shall the bond-woman which he calleth the old and carnall Covenant with all the Carnall ordinances thereof This is a very rare sence also the covenant of Almighty God by Moses he calleth Carnall certainly it is a Carnall expression and unsavorie so to call that gracious Covenant of Almightie God which hee of love and free Grace gave or made unto his people Deu. 33. 6. and to call those spirituall ordinances of Gods own Instituting how ever some way Ceremoniall to call them Carnall after the manner of Carnall or Common Generation But further he saith that all her sonnes the Carnall and fleshly seed Ishmael and all because begotten and borne of the flâ—sh shall bee cast out of the house It doth not say cast out Children out oâ— the Church for the matter so far travelled in is where it was if not worse and further off Cast out Agar and Ishmaell Abraham out of thy house for they shall not inherit with Isaac and Sara as indeed they did not And therefore as the sum of all R. B. saith that though Children of old were of the Church and within the Covenant before Christ yet they are not now if we please to beleeve him Children it seemes are great losers by Christ coming But Alas is this the manifest declaration that R. B. fathered so confidently on Almightie God in rejecting Children from being of the Church Truely I suppose he and such of his way had more need to be pitied for their ignorance joyned with presumption then to be envied for any rarenesse in their opinions he further saith my exposition of this scripture page 22. in my discourse is also to be rejected and cast out and his rare exposition is to bee received and taken in For hee saith in my discourse I make such onely to be the sons of the Bond-woman as actually refused and rejected Grace as Joh. 7. 35. 36. He meaneth Joh. 1. 11. and so became bound I said there as the reader may see that these two sons which Abraham had by two women were two Types And the Apostle saith it is an Allegory and they did Type out two states of people and had reference Mat. 21. 4 3. to the time of Grace when Christ came unto his own and they received him not Joh. 1. 11. but to such as did hee gave power to be the sons of God But such as did not as the greatest number of the Iewes did not they became bond and were cast out the kingdome being taken from them and given to others namely the Gentiles c. as further Iohn 8. 36. Gala. 4. 28. may be seene which rejecting and casting out the holy Apostle so greatly bewayleth Rom. 10. 11. The Iewes for unbeliefe were cast out as was Ishmael and Agar for mocking But such of the Iewes and Gentiles also that did beleeve were made free by the sonne that maketh men free indeed I said thus this Allegorie is fulfilled and we Gentiles are as Isaac