of Grace and Knowledge and the word plainly shews that they did all at first appear to be Saints though they afterwards degenerated and fell to disobedience yet they retained the Name till actually excommunicated Now more particularly to your Argument The Antecedent of your first Syllogism I deny The Minor also of the 2d if you adde as you must or else you do nothing in their first constitution The Major in the 3d. I own in the first branch but deny the Minor in both branches To your Minor in the 4th which you say cannot be denied I have these things to say to the former branch of it first That there may be some truly in Gods favour in your Parishes I grant but this doth not prove those societies wheresoever they are visible Saints except those others had formerly visibly been in that condition for some of Gods people have been and may be in Babylon Rev. 18. 4. yet Babylon no society of Saints 2ly You say the Apostle bids ns account men ignorant and wicked if they be not obstinately and wilfully so brethren it is true but whether were they to be accounted brethren as ignorant and wicked or as having been first visibly holy and still in hopes of recovery this latter is evident Now these in your Parishes who are ignorant and wicked though not wilfully obstinate never were visible Saints as these Thessalonians were such who were in God the Father ver 1. Elect of God ver 4. Followers of the Apostles ver 6. and of the Lord such as had received the word of God Chap. 2. 13. Followers of the Church of God ver 14. such whose faith grew exceedingly and charity of every one to each other abounded 2. Epist 1. 3. c. Now of these worser sort of your Members there could never be any such thing affirmed they never being in that condition therefore this Scripture doth not prove the worser sort brethren 3ly Far wide is it to say the worst of all be Professors of the true faith because they profess in words that Christ is the Son of God c. for that profession with the Mouth joined with denial in practice is a lie 1 John 2. 3. A man cannot serve two Masters but his servants they are to whom they obey now the worst of your members following the works of the Divel he is their Master I wonder that you wander so far about keeping such a coyl about the Churches that were fallen from what they were at the first when you well know that before ever you can apply any of these Scriptures rightly to your purpose you must make your Parishes in the first forming like those viz. visible Saints either resolve to speak home to your question or say nothing Either you must say that a Church may be formed up in its first Constitution of visible Saints and visible wicked or else of visible Saints the former I think you will never affirm if you own the latter as I think you do I earnestly intreat you to shew prove that all the Parishes of this Nation in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints except you do this all parallels between you Sardis Corinth c. will never help you if you say they were all Professors of the true faith at their first constitution and so fit matter which I think is all that can be said I answer those that at their first constitution were for the most part abhominable disobedient and to every good work reprobate they were not all Professors of the true faith but the 8432. as I think Parishes of this Nation at their first constitution were for the most part such Ergo the Major is undeniable for works words are to be joined together to the making up of a true profession The Minor I prove thus If the greatest part of the men in the mentioned Parishes did at their first constitution onely profess to know God and in works deny him then they were abhominable c. but they did so Ergo the Minor is manifest the consequent is the Apostles Titus 1. 16. more shall be said of this in answer to the next Argument Now to the latter branch touching the Parochial Assembly being conjoined in Covenant which is evinced by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicite Covenant Though I might well let this pass for I deny a Covenant to be the form of the Church and therefore you have little reason to say this is our definition of a Church for though I own it in the first branch yet not in the second yet notwithstanding seeing you undertake to prove your Churches by this to be true in form they fall short of what they who make this definition intend by it and what it holds forth I shall speak something to it thus This combining or conjoining c. is by them who are called though falsely independently the form of the Church whereby first they know themselves from all other societies in the world and 2ly whereby they are ingaged to a special watch over each other Now this which you speak of that you have viz. A constant meeting every Lords Day c. is neither of these for first this meeting thus together carries with it no note of the Church from the world at all for seeing that all may come to hear and many in the world that are not of the Church may come to one place constantly to serve God how is this possible to distinguish the Church and the world asunder they can never be known either by others or themselves and 2ly this combining conjoining c. ingages them together as members of one body to a special watch over each other c. Now to meet together every Lords Day c. is no such thing for if that be an incorporating into the Church if that be the form of the Church there needs no more to enter a man into the Church but comming to worship God every Lords Day which is ridiculous for then a man may make himself a Member of any Church whether they will or no neither doth this ingage them to any watch at all over each other for if it ingage one then all that so come and then a man meerly of the world out of the Church is ingaged to watch over the Church and they over him which is not true Thus it appears that for ought that you have said you have not had at the constitution of your Churches a right matter viz. visible Saints neither such a form as you indeavoured to prove You teach me what I should have proved as if my argument concluded not the question not considering that it is our Churches present not Reply Dr. B. Primitive estate which I undertake to vindicate what the men in the Parishes of this Nation were in their first forming I have not now to say you say they might consist yea you rise higher and
way finally the Apostle Peter commands us all to be ready alwaies to give an answer to every Man that asketh us a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear if Gods honour and the good of those who ask require it both which I apprehended were concerned in my yielding to your motion and therefore embraced it leâ—ving the issue to God and for the same reason have I yielded to your secod motion made in the close of the third or fourth days disputation viz. that your Arguments and Answers and Replies and Rejoynders upon the first question might be put in Print and to your Proviso that at present I should make no Reply unto your answer to the Ten last Arguments as you would no Rejoynder to my Reply upon your Answers to the Nine first and if you have a mind you may rejoin your engagement to the contrary I free you from yea and give you liberty which you have already taken all along without check to oppose what you please and to take in also the help of Master Morley and those other seven who assisted you in disputation that the utmost you and they can object further against our Parish Churches may come under our view onely for your Readers sake I could wish you would forbear instead of arguing to make any more excursions by tedious impertinent Declamations against our Ministers and Members wherein all your Answers for the most part spend themselves which yet the Men of your own way will admire seriously but all others of any competent understanding ironically using Jobs words to Bildad Chap. 26. 3. How hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is suffer me to speak my thoughts and hopes when all is that can be said by their self or any other to overthrow the Parochial Assemblies of this Nation they will stand like Mount Sion which though it may be moved in its place cannot be removed out of its place and the Presbyterian Government which we are endeavouring to settle in our Congregations will prove like the Palm tree quae non cedit ponderi sed surgit adversum pondus Nor do I doub but when Christ our King hath turned his hand upon us and purely purg'd away our dross and taken away all our tin he will set up his throne and keep a standing Majesty in the midst of these golden Candle-sticks then they that are our enemies shall see and shame shall cover them which said unto us where is the Lord your God mean time we will bear the indignation of the Lord because we have sinned against him untill he plead our cause and execute judgement for us yea though he suffer you to kill us after three days and a half we shall revive and stand upon our feet and many out of all languages separate Societies shall relinquish their dividing principles and practices and take hold of the skirt of a Gospel Presbyterian saying we will go with you for we have heard that God is with you this is the hope and shall be the Prayer of Your loving friend and servant in the Lord JOHN BRYAN That the National Congregations of England are the true Churches of Christ saith Dr. John Bryan Minister in Coventry and these are his Arguments to prove it as followeth Denyed by Mr. JOHN ONLY with the grounds of his dissent in Answers to his Arguments WHether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Quest Churches Those Societies which the true Churches of Christ Argument 1. Dr. B. generally throughout the world own and acknowledge to be true Churches they are true Churches but the Parish Assemblies of England are so own'd and acknowledged therefore the Parish Assemblies of England are true Churches The Minor is undeniable for all the Reformed Churches of Europe gave us the right hand of Fellowship when we were much more corrupt then now and so have all the Churches of New-England done in their Treatise of Church Covenant and Answer to 32. Questions I put you to name one Church in the world that doth not acknowledge the Church of England to be the Spouse of Christ The Major is thus proved if the Judgement of the Churches See the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers published by W. Rathbad p. 7. of Christ ought to be taken for the Judgement of God then those Societies which they own and acknowledge to be true Churches are so but the former is true therefore the latter of the first Proposition there can be no doubt The second Proposition is evident from Mathew 18. 17. 18. He that will not regard the Judgement of that particular Church whereof he is a Member is to be esteemed as a Heathen or Publican Of how much sorer censure shal he be thought worthy that despiseth the Judgement of all the known Churches in the world Again Christ hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce of a particular man that he is in the Estate of salvation and that infallibly therefore he hath made it much more able to pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true Church which is a matter of no such difficulty as the other 1 Tim. 3. 15. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth but this it could not be if it should be ignorant of a Truth so necessary as this viz. what people are to be accounted a true Church That these societies by you mentioned may bear Testimony to yours to be true may be undeniable but then the Queâ—â—ion will Answ I. O. be whether these by you mentioned be true Churches rightly coÌ„â—ituted according to Gospel order that which is the very question betwixt us is by you taken for granted before it be proved and brought in by you as an Argument to prove it self the Question you are to prove is that the Parishes of that Nation be generally true Churches which I deny and so consequently all other that be of the same Matter and Form Now those Churches which you bring to prove yours to be true are of the same Matter and Form with you and if you be false then they also and if they should differ either in Matter of Form from you they could not possibly confesse you to be true Now to say you are true Churches because other societies who are one for matter of substance with you say so is as much as if you should say we are true Churches therfore we are true Churches That the Testimony of such a Church as is by you mentioned Mat. 18. 1 Tim. 3. is to be taken according to the intent of those Scriptures I grant but then you must first prove that those Churches by you mentioned are such not so confidently beg the question till that be first done these Scriptures will not support your Conclusion Wheras you desire me to name one true Church in the world that does not acknowledge the Churches of England to be the Spouse of Christ that I shall doe in
Visible Church From the two ends of it neither of which you say are attained by our Peoples constant meeting c. which is untrue for first our Assemblies are hereby known from all other Societies in the world Heathenish jewish Mabometan Popish c. who joyn not together in Gods true Worship 2. The Godly of our Congregations declare themselves hereby ingaged to watch over each other and actually do so yea the whole Body come to be instructed reproved and watcht ever by their Pastors and are admonished of their duty which they yield assent unto and are convinced though the most fail in performance But let our Brethren whose cause you manage speak and they readily acknowledge that we have the same Covenant for substance which themselves have and consequently are as true Churches Read reverend Mr. Hookers survey Chap. 4. thus the People of England in their Parishes constantly hold them to the fellow ship of the People in such a place attend all the Ordinances submit thereto c. by such actions c. they declare by their practises which others by open profission an implicite Covenant preserves the true Nature of the Church because it carries the formalis ratio in it by which a Church is constituted animplicite Covenant in some cases may be fully sufficient as if it consist of such who were children to parents confederate deceased c. The like and fuller acknowledgement you shall finde of all the Elders of New England in their Treatise of Church Covenant where they give the same Reason which you so slight Quoting Mr. Parker whose words in his third Beck of Ecclesiastical policy are these Non abest ea râ—alis Et substantialis quamquam Magis quam par erat implicita Coitio in foe tus eaque professio fidei substantialis quae Deo grata essentialis Ecclesiae idque visibilis huc usque sartam rectam in Anglis conservavit You see how little you have gained by undertaking anothers Cause which though you disclaim as yours in this yet you seem clearly to own in your Answer to the next Argument whichas to gratifie you who cry out sovehemently against the gathering of our Churches concluding that we are no true Churches because we cannot prove that we were at first rightly gathered whereas it is clear enough that we might be true Churches though it could not appear that we were at first rightly gathered as men may be true Christians of whose Baptism and first conversion there can no clear accempt be given and some socities may be named who were doubtless true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found in Scripture The Argument proceeds thus Our Churches had a right gathering both out of Heathenism and out of Popery therefore they are true Churches Argu. 3 1. Out of Heathenism we were gathered 500. years before Austin the Monk by the preaching of the Gospel and not at all Dr. B. by compulsion this is proved out of approved Antiquaries 2. Out of Popery I thus reason If the Churches of this Nation were gathered or rather recalled out of Popery into the true Religion by the means that are approved and appointed in the word of God then they were rightly gathered out of Popery But the former is true which is thus made good the means approved and appointed by God to gather or recall a back slided People are preaching and the command of the Civil Magistrate this latter is evident by sundry examples of good Kings 2 Chron. 14. 4. 15 12 13 30 34 32 33. that these were the means of recalling our people out of Popery is acknowledged by all Answ It s true I say you are no true Churches because you cannot prove you were at first rightly gathered and I say it s also Answ as true some may be true Churches of whose first gathering nothing can be found but what is this to your purpose the question I. O. is not whether they be true Churches whose first original cannot be known but whether those be true who can know and finde it and yet are unable to prove it true I question not but was it to your advantage you could quickly tell us of the first original of your Parishes To the first branch of your Argument that these 8432. Parishes of which the whole land is were gatheted by the preaching of the Gospel I desire to see proved I deny not but here might be Churches gathered but I desire to see it proved that they were gathered as now they stand a whole Nation divided into Parish Churches generally If they were thus gathered by the Preaching of the Gospel then they were called from the World after a sort from themselves and united together as one body as all the Churches in the Gospel were Now this whole Nation was never called out of the World visibly what was the World out of which they were called when they were all accounted Members And for others in other Nations they were never amongst 2. The World the lusts thereof they retained in their hearts coveteousness pride malice every evil work visibly seen in many of them 3 So far were they from being united as one Man as that they were many of them deadly enemies one to another sure if the Gospel did gather its effects would be seen To the second branch This Argument is the same with your former only you alter the term from constituting to gathering which in effect is all one for you apply it to your first gathering out of Heathenism which might be understood of constitution so that I do not well know whether it be added as a proof of the former or as an Argument of it self but to follow you in your scope First I cannot see that you have had any constitution at your coming from Popery for there was no alteration of either matter or form which are the essential constitutive principles and if you had any constitution you had it from Papists for before you had none as now you stand or if you had it could do you no good as I shall shew Popery had so deeply infected those that had been true Churches and this among the rest which was one with Rome that the name and nature of your Church was lost yea past recalling for where the Church was called the Spouse the wife the body the house the garden the Temple the Zion of Christ they come to be called A whore a mother of harlots a Babylon an habitation of Divels an hold of every foul Spirit and a cage of every unclean and hareful bird and whereas before the Church was peaceable and meek and kindly affectionate gentle c. Now they come to be a blood thitsty adulterous whore drunk with the blood of Saints for in her was found the blood of all that was slain upon the earth insomuch that the Lord cries out Come out of her my people Now we know whilst that People are in a capacity of
to confirm this are at large related 2. Though Popish Apostacy did afterward for many Ages overspread all the Churches in England yet they believe God still reserved a remnant for whose sakes he preserved the holy Scriptures amongst them and baptism in the name of the Trinity only and when God of his rich grace was pleased to stir up the Spirit of King Edward the sixth and Queene Elizabeth to cast off the Pope c. though at first some Sbires and sundry Parishes stood out against that Reformation for a time yet afterwards they generally received the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. which are published and consented to by all the Ministers endowed with the silent consent also of the People and Subscription of the hands of the chief of them containing the Marrow and Summe of the Oracles of God which are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Eloquia Dei concredited only to the Church We doe therefore acknowledge that where the People doe with common and mutuall consent gather into setled Congregations every Lords day as in England they do to hear and teach this Doctrin and doe profess their subjection thereunto and doe bind themselves and their Children as in Baptism they doe to continue therein that such Congregations are true Churches much more you may read in their Treatise of Church Covenant in their Answer to the eleventh Objection where they shew that if Christian Congregations in England were at the first combined by Covenant the Eternity of Gods Covenant is such that it is not the Interposition of many Corruptions that may arise in after-time that can disanull the same c. That Objection also that the Members of our Parishionall Assemblies were not brought in by their own voluntary profession but by the Authority and Proclamation of the Prince as also that Rome and the Assemblies of Papists may go for true Churches also you shall find there very fully answered The Name of Parish I perceive all along is stumbled at as Popish as are the names of Parsons Vicars and Curats which is the main if not the only Reason why some of you cast off both the English Churches and Ministers and yet the thing signified by the name is owned by Scripture and upon that account Mr. Hollingworth proves Parishes to be of Divine Right to whom I formerly referr'd you and reason it self evinceth it most expedient for the better performance of those duties which arise from Church-Membership that the Members should cohabit or dwell as neer together as conveniently they may It 's falsely charged upon as that we hold Parish Precincts give a man right or make him matter fit for a visible Congregation but the Question is of a Nation or City Christian whether the bounds of Parishes discreetly measured may not rationally be fixed as most expedient for Religious Meetings seeing all cannot meet in one place and if the Members of a Parish be visible Saints you will not say it is not lawfull to limit the Congregation unto such read the Review formerly cited and that our Congregations generally consist of such though not in your yet in a Scripture sense hath been in part and shall be more fully proved In your Answer to the first Branch I see nothing worth replying to 1. The World out of which this Nation when made Christian was called every mans Eyes but yours easily see 2. Many Members of the best Churches retain the lusts of the World in their hearts and 3 May be deadly Enemies one to another bite and devour one another yea and be Enemies to their faithfull Ministers for telling them the truth and yet the effects of Gospel gathering seen well enough To the second branch 1. You say we retain the Constitution which we had from Popery which is very false for we rejected Popery embraced Gods holy truths and joyned together in true worship and so were Matter and Form distant far enough from Popish Rulers you mean we retain the same Parish bounds which Papists left us to which sufficient hath been spoken 2. You deny the Command of the Magistrate assisting the publick Preaching of the Gospel to be a means appointed and approved of God for the gathering or recalling of a back-slided People That the Magistrates duty is to command yea and compell men that have forsaken their God and the true Faith to return again to God I proved by the approved examples of the good Kings undor the old Testament which you throw off very lightly as if old-Testament-Proofs were of no force whereas the Apostle expresly teacheth that the Gospel Churches are built upon the Prophets as well as the Apostles Ephes 2. 20. And that I may farther convince you of your Errour and Folly in slighting these Examples 1. You cannot but grant that what these good Kings did was by vertue of divine warrant Deut. 13. 5-11 17. 2. Exod. 22. 20. 2. It will thus appear that these Rules and Patterns are binding under the New Testament 1. Because we find no Repeal of these Precepts no Prohibition of these Practises 2. This Power is of Common and Naturall Equity and that which is answerable to the Morall Law binds under the Gospel 3 This Power was established and exercised upon Morall grounds and for Moral ends Deut 13. 5. 11. 4. We find this very thing prophesied of the times of the New Testament Es 49. 23. Zech. 13. 3. 5. The Apostle makes Rulers a terrour to evill works and Revengers to execute wrath upon Evil Doers without limitation or exception and you will not deny transgressions of the first Table to be evill works Moreover you cannot but remember that it is a Gospel-expression Compel them to come in Your first Argument from the Apostles gathering Churches without the Magistrates help there being no Christian Magistrate proves the Power of God who can make his Word alone Effectual but it proves not that had there been Christian Magistrates they ought not to have aided by their authority or that the Apostles would not have called for their assistance The consequence of your second Argument is absurd If I have Bread and Water to preserve my life must I not make use of these because I want those other means which God hath appointed and which when he sees good he will add to these to make my life more comfortable Your conclusion of this Answer is a triumph before the victory My following Argument which you say will melt like Snow before the Sun may make a floud which will sweep away your refuge of lyes James 3. 14 15. Those Assemblies wherein Christ dwells by the special presence Arg. 4. Dr. B. of his Grace are true visible Churches but Christ dwells in the Parochial Assemblies of England by the special presence of his Grace Ergo the Parochial Assemblies of England are true visible Churches The Major proved Rev. 1. 12 13 Psal 132 13 14. Exod. 25. 31. 1 Tim. 3. 15. 2 Cor. 6. 16. The
Minor thus Where ever the word of God is faithfully and constantly Preached to the Ears and Eyes of people and by them attended and submitted unto there Christ is present by his grace But the word of God is faithfully and constantly preached in the Parochial Assemblies of England c. Ergo. Again Where Christ by his Spirit in the Ministry of his word converts confirms and comforts his people there is the special presence of his Grace But in our Assemblies Christ converts c. Ergo he is present with us Lastly Where there is a settled meeting together in the name of Christ for a true worship of Christ there is Christ present But there is such a meeting by the Assemblies of England Ergo. The Major I grant id est 1 Where Christ dwells by the special Answ 1. 0. presence of his Grace as they be golden Candlesticks a house of God a Sion there must needs be a true Church for it is no more but as if you should say thus where the presence of Christ is with a society as they are a true Church there must needs be a Church for all those expressions Candlestick Sion house are but special tearms emphatically to set forth the nature of that one thing the Church for the Candlesticks are the Church Rev. 1. 20. The House of God is the Church 1 Tim 3. 15. But now I deny the Minor I deny that God dwells in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I deny not but that God may be present with some who walk in the sincerity of their hearts to what they know but that God dwells with the Parishes generally of which the Question is as a Church I deny And now to the proofs of your Minor you argue thus Where ever the word is faithfully c. I deny that the word is faithfully preached in the Parishes of Answ 1. this Nation generally 2. I deny that the word such as it is is generally submitted unto except by assent and by submitting you understand a bare acknowledgment of the things taught to be true then the consequence is abundantly false for the wickedst men in the world perhaps the Devils themselves may assent and submit so far and no man will say such may make a true Church Lastly I deny the Consequence that wheresoever the word is truly preached there the presence of Christ is as it is a Church A bare denial might be sufficient to a bare assertion for you have given neither Scripture nor reason for your Argument But I answer first thus If in many Parishes of this Nation there be ignorant idle dumb doggs for the Ministers of those places then the Word cannot be faithfully preached there But in many of the Parishes of this Nation there are such Ergo the consequence is undeniable The Minor is your own words For the first time I heard you Preach and excepted against you you applyed those words of the Prophet Esay 56. to some of the Ministers of this Nation Secondly That word that they do Preach such as it is is not obeyed nor submitted to upon your own grounds for if the word be generally truely preached and generally truely submitted to it must unavoidably follow that all the men in all the Parishes of this Nation are faithful people which is false because in their works they do evidently deny it and to say they be faithful people is first to Preach plain contradictions one while denouncing Gods judgements against them as wicked unbelievers another while when you are put to prove them Churches tell them they be faithful people to sow pillows under their elbows and to say Peace when there is none and making them to trust in lying words that will not profit Jer. 7. 4. Ezek. 13. 10. Thirdly I deny the Consequence Though the word should be truly Preached and assented and submitted to that will not prove that place to be the place where the presence of Christ is as it stands related to the Church according to your Scriptures because the presence of Christ in the faithful Preaching of his word and also submission to may be separable sometimes from the Church and therefore cannot be a note seeing that which is a note of a thing to know it by must agree to it and to it only and at all times You argue further Where Christ by his Spirit Converts c. Answer The special presence of Christ may be considered two ways Either with Believers simply as such being fit matter for a Church or Secondly as they be a company of Believers joyned together in Gospel-order being a Temple built up by God for an habitation for himfelf through the Spirit Ephes 2. 21 If the presence of Christ be by you understood in this last sense which is only to your purpose your first Argument standing in that form then I deny the Consequence because that both Conversion by the Ministry of the word c. may be separable from the Church and performed out of the Church as is so evident it needs no proof Lastly you reason thus Where there is a meeting together c. Answ I deny that there is such a meeting by the Parishes of England as that in Matth. 18. for the presence of Christ there spoken of is that when two or three that are truly Godly are met together to desire something of the Lord he will grant their requests because he at that time is present with them but what is this to the general meeting of the Parishes of this Nation where many nay the most are openly wicked some meeting for fashion because others do some for Custom because they have done so to hear a Sermon a Prayer and then depart not knowing what the power of Godliness is what I say that meeting in Matth. 18. is to this is a riddle to me and truly Sir I wonder why you left your Minor so helpless adding neither one Scripture nor Reason to help it You grant my Major but in such a sense as is to me non sense when Reply Dr. B. I say those Societies where Christ dwels by his special presence are his Church you say true if he dwels in them as they be his Church You might have done better to have waved your Asses and given us an instance of any one Societie where Christ was ever so present that could be evicted by the Word not to have been his Church Where ever the Kings Personal presence is there is the Court and so where Christs special Gracious presence is there is his Church the Scriptures which you speak nothing to plainly hold forth this doctrine that the Assemblies where Christ is peculiarly resident and gives out speciall tokens of his grace are his Churches and that he is in such a manner present no where els in all the world I reason thus Christ is only visibly present in his visible Church therefore where he is discerned so present there is his visible Church
for they have right to be an actual Congregation the Assumption is proved so abundantly by others that I need say no more till they be answered the sum is this we have the word ourselves and the blessing of the Covenant Ergo we are in Covenant with God I deny the Antecedent That the Parishes of this Nation generally Answer I. O. are Saints who have made a Covenant with God by sacrifice according to Ps 50. 50. is most abominably false the very naming of it is confutation sufficient he that justifies the wicked in their wickedness is abomination before God and who those are that have proved that the Parishes of this Nation generally are Saints that have made a Covenant with God by sacrifice I never yet saw attempted the truth is you have neither had the word as you ought to have had nor yet the Seals rightly administred neither yet the blessing of the Covenant and that this is so is so abundantly proved by others that I need say no more till they be answered Those Societies that answer the Kingdom of Heaven in those Parables of our Saviour where he declares what the visible Church Arg. 15. D. B. is they are true Churches for his scope is to teach us by those similitudes how to know the visible Church on earth but so do our Assemblies I will instance in two or three of those Parables first of the good seed sown in the field Mat. 13. 24. which because our Saviour says is meant of the world ver 38. you with many others deny the visible Church to be thereby intended but interpret it of the wider world But that Christ means his Church his Field scattered throughout the world appears evidently by the servants wondring at the tares ver 25. there had been no place for this wonder if that were his meaning for who can wonder to see the world full of wicked persons I argue thus Those Societies that have good seed sowen in them and mixture of good men and wicked hypocrites united in external Communion and Profession of Religion are true visible Churches but so have ours and so had the Apostolical Churches in Corinth for example A second is that of the Draw Net ver 47. Many in the Church not of the Church 1 Joâ— 2. 19. this is apparent that in the Church sincere and hypocrites are gathered to profession and external Communion and where they are so there is the Church to the same purpose is the Parable Mat. 22. of him that had not on a wedding Garment and that in Mat. 25. of the 10. Virgins Finally the Church is compared to a flower where there is Chaf mixt with Wheat that which is objected that the Church is a society of Saints called to be Saints is easily answered the denomination is taken from the better part i. e. all should be some are real Saints To the first of these Parables it is apparant it is not meant of the Answer I. O. Church at all but the world ver 38. Christ himself interprets it now whether it be believed of Christ or you Let all men Judge Whereas you say we interpret of the wider world I desire you in your next to shew if you can where Christ makes any distinction of wider or narrower world or whether the Church is not a people called out of the world visibly known from it if you cannot you do not well in making such distinctions where the Scripture makes known you say Christ means his Church his Field Answer That is as much as you should say his Church his World for Field is world ver 38. so you confound the Church and world together as one that hath alwaies been so distinctly separated nay this is also to confound your self who say the word Church signifies a Company called out of the world You say it appears by the servants wondring at the tares and if meant of the world there had been no place for this wonder Reply This it seems is that weighty reason that perswades your judgement contrary to Christs exposition of his own words There is never a such Word as Wonder in the Text they only askt the Question if he did not sow good seed in his Field and from whence came the tares and that they might well do from the consideration of that precious Gospel of Peace Christ cast into the world and that deadly enmity hatched against is when declared or if there could no reason be given of this their Question we must not therefore frame an exposition of our own contrary to Christs express determination for similitudes carry not an equal Parallel in all things but very many times That Christ means not the Church I thus evince That which makes void the Doctrin of Excommunication and makes Christ speak plain Contradiction is not the meaning of Christ in this Parable but to interpret it of the Church doth so Ergo. The Major is undeniable the Minor is manifest from the whole scope of the place for when the tares i. e. wicked Men ver 38. did visibly appear ver 26. the servants said wilt thou ver 28. that we go and gather them up the Master said nay ver 30. Let both grow till the Harvest which Harvest is the end of the world ver 39. now what can be more plainlyer laid down in the world then this that if it be meant of the Church no Min is to be cast out of it till the day of judgement though visibly wicked and how doth it make Christ speak plain contradition one while commanding ungodly persons to be cast out of his Church and an other while commending them to be kept in Let them alone c. thus the interpretation of this Scripture by you being false the Argument that you draw is from a groundless Construction of the words and so useless now for all the rest if they be to be understood of the Church it s such a mixture as is not severable till the day of judgement and so undeniable not discernable to the eys of Men seeing those that appear to be nought are to be separated before that time 1 Cor. 5. 2 5 7 11 13. 2 Cor. 6. 14 15 16 17. With many other places to the same purpose evident it is for that of the Draw net ver 49. to the end of the world was the time of severation and so the time of discerning and of him that had not the wedding Garment on it seems the Master of the Feast only discerned and for the ten Virgins the time of discerning the wise from the foolish was when the Bridegroom came I readily grant that in a true Gospel Church there may be many in it that are none of it many Hypocrites gathered to profession and external Communion c. but then they must be such as to the eys of the Church undiscernable for we see all along the Scripture by Christs own command Mat. 18. 15 16 17. If thy Brother
trespass against thee go and tell him of his fault betwixe him and thee alone and if he will not hear thee take with thee one or two more and if he will not hear them tell it to the Church and if he neglect to hear the Church let him be to thee at a Heathen and Publican and thus the Apostle was carefull to keep the Church visible purer Purge out from you the old Leaven saith Paul know you not that a little Leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump see and consider Haggai 1. 11 12 13 now you being such as are and ever were for the most part visibly nought cannot Answer those Parables if understood of the Church true it is that many Churches in the Apostles times had amongst them visibly bad they being degenerated from what he was but they were to remain but for a considerable time of tryal to see if they would be restored and if they would not be reclamed but prove contumacious they are to be delivered to that Kingdom from whence they For those which you so harp upon that was bad in the Apostolicall Churches and as bad as you say as yours these were not fit matter for a Church as such for such they were commanded to excommunicate 1 Cor. 5. 5 6 7. and forbad to have Communion with ver 11 12 13. sure was unfit matter for the Church came and for the objection that you say is so easily answered the Church being called Saints the denomination being taken from the better part I answer if you mean this if a Church at its first constitution it s abundantly false and you have spoken it without the least colour of Scripture or reason I challenge you or any Man in the World to produce one example in all the New Testament of any one Church that at its Constitution received one visible wicked Man and if not but all appeared Saints then undeniable it is that the denomination arose from the visibility of sanctity that appeared in all and so it was as the Scripture plainly declares to all that are willing to see If you mean it of a Church when degenerated from what they were it s nothing to your purpose because you for the most part were never visibly Regenerated it appears that the Churches after corrupted retained the name of Saints from that visible sanctity once they had and yet not past recovery to their former Estate for after they appeared past recovery see what they may be called Mat. 18. 17. all you say should be answer true therefore those that are not are as they should not be Some you say are true but that doth not shew that those that never were are to be accounted so nor that those that never were are to be accounted Church Members though amongst the other for then Babylon is a Church and a society of Saints for some Saints may be and have been there Rev. 18. 4. Those societies from which it is a Sin to separate are true Churches Arg. 16. D. B. but it is a Sin to separate from our Assemblies Ergo. That Church for separation from which there is as little reason as there was for separating from the Church whereof Christ professeth himself a Member John 4. 22. and so from the Church of Corinth it is a sin to separate from but there is little reason to separate from our Assemblies compare our Churches with the Church of the Jews in Christs time for Teachers and Rulers and you shall find as bad of both as with us if you say these Churches had a right Constitution and gathering I have proved ours have both The Minor of the first and also of the second Syllogism is denyed Answer 1. 0. and were our separation from you onely for the evilness of you it might easily be made appear that there is more reason to separate from you then either the Church of the Jews or Corinthians You have been so far from proving that Constitution true that after you had indeavoured it and see my answer to it you then deny that you were to prove any such thing see page the 2d Argument 2. and then page 6. at the Reply but the truth is you yet never were a Church at all you never having had any Gospel Constitution and where you say you have proved it there I have disproved it and proved it false where unto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words Those Churches that have brought forth a multitude of Martyrs Argument 17. Dr. B. for the Causes of Christ against Anti-Christ are no Anti-Christian but true Churches that ours have so is superfluous for me to prove Sir I desire you in your next to prove that the bringing over Answer 1. 0. of men to yield up their lives in the defence of some truths for these did no more is sufficient to prove the societies that so taught them true Churches go throughout all the diversities of Religions almost in the world and you shall find some so taught as were they called to it would yield up their lives and Seal some truths of Christ with their blood Rome it self I am confident would yield many Martyrs for the Cause of Christ in many real truths and though they could not be concluded Anti-Christian in that yet they might in many other things that they might hold that might be erronious Here are many societies in England that deny the Baptism of water to be practised upon any subject without which no society in the world can be accounted a visible Church and yet I am confident had they occasion rather than they would deny they would seal many precious truths of Christ with their blood and now upon your Argument they in so doing might be proved true Churches if what you say be true though they deny that without which no men can be esteemed so Secondly I desire to see it proved for yet you have not that the Parishes of this Nation did bring forth these Martyrs I rather think that the Parishes of this Nation were as willing to have them Martyred as those bloody men themselves that did it for that Parish that brought forth some that were Members of her to profess and dye for some truths must needs profess the same things themselves and so they should all have been Martyred for such was the blood-thirstiness of those men that all that would not submit to their abominations must dye But we see no such thing for only some few in some Parishes and in any one were Martyred and the rest not toucht which shews that the Parishes except some few were of the mind of those bloody men and so the edge of the Argument may be turned into your own Neck thus Those Churches that have consented to the Martyrdom of a multitude of those that dyed in the defence of the Cause of Christ are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation have so consented Ergo. Thirdly were all
its proper place where I shall have occasion to vindicate the truth of those Churches which you deny to be true The summe of your Answer is st fir by way of Concession that all the Churches mentioned by me which are all the known Churches Reply Dr. B. in the world own and acknowledge our Parochial Assemblies to be true Churches this savours of Ingenuity 2. By way of Exception against the validity of the Testimony of these Churches because they are the same for Matter and Formwith ours according to the Proverb ask my Brother if I be a Thief this seems to savour of Arrogancy The Testimony of two or three men was wont to be taken for truth by Warrant both of Law and Gospel John 8. 17. Mat. 18. 16. 2 Cor. 13. 1. Heb. 10. 28. Now put the Case you were accused of these or two known Enemies by one were able to bring the Testimony of two hundred honest men to assert your Integrity I presume you would not take it well that their witness should be slighted upon no other ground but this because they consisted of the same Matter and Form with you It is just our Case a very inconsiderable number for so are all the Anti-paedo-Baptistical societies Comparatively and our profest Adversaries draw up a Charge against us that we are false Churches we being for Justification of our truth more then a million of men approved unto God and all good men in whose Approbation we do yea and will rejoyce because we beleeve and are sure that they are the true Churches of Christ and the Judgement of such you deny not to be the judgement of God himself but all Churches besides those of your way which are but of yesterday you plainly though implicitly in the Close of your Answer deny to be true Churches whereby you proclaime M. Mar shal unity of Saints your selves to be the greatest Schismaticks in the world if the Scripture reason that a burning and shining Light in our Church hath given be of any weight which I refer to your serious Consideration as also the weight of this inartificial Argument to the judgement of the people Our Parish Assemblies have a true Church Constitution therfore Argu. 2. they are true Churches The Consequence is granted by you all for this is the Main if not only Reason why you deny the Truth of our Churches because they want a right Constitution The Antecedent I thus prove Those societies that have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches have a right Constitution Matter and Form being the only constitutive Principles and making up the Essence of every Body both natural and Political But our Parish Assemblies have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches therefore they have a true Church Constitution The Minor I make good from your own definition of a visible Church viz. A company of visible Saints combined or conjoyn'd in special bond consent or Covenant to partake of all Gods Ordinances and to perform all duties which they owe to God and each to other I argue thus those Societies that consist of visible Saints so combin'd are true Churches ours are such therefore The Major is your own the Minor is thus proved in both branches our Parish Assemblies are Societies of visible Saints Those societies where some are Real Saints the worser sort Brethren in a Gospel Account and the worst Professors of the true Faith they are Societies of visible Saints But such are our Assemblies therefore The Minor you cannot deny there are with us many that are men of understanding and not only blameless but pious also in their Conversations The Apostle commands us to account men ignorant and wicked if they be not wilfully and obstinately so Bretheren 2 Thes 3. 14 15. and you grant that the worst among us profess in word the true Faith viz. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God that we are justified by faith alone c. The Major is thus proved The Apostolical Church Societies were Societies of visible Saints but they had in them some reall Saints the worser sort Brethren the worst visible Professors therefore Societies that consist of such are true visible Churches That Christ owns for his Church such a Society where all profess the Faith though the greater part be wicked if there be a few names that are Reall Saints is evident by the example of the Church of Sardis Revel 3. 1. 4. the like may be said of the Church of Corinth c. We have therefore true Church Matter 2. They have a right Form for they are conjoin'd in a Church Covenant this is manifest by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicit Covenant our Adversaries being Judges That which was to be proved was that the Parishes of this Nation Answ J. O. in their first Constitution consisted of visible Saints and all that you have here said is void the mark for notwithstanding any thing that you have said the greatest part of the men in the Parishes of this Nation in their first constitution might consist of visible wicked men and so all that you have said is to no purpose for if ever you say any thing to purpose you must first prove that which you have undertaken viz. That you consisted at the first constitution of visible Saints and of this you have not spoken one word you rake back into the degenerated Estate and Condition of Churches striving to equalize and shroud your selves under the sins of others which are degenerated from what they were at first which is nothing to the purpose for I utterly deny that ever any of those Churches in their first forming did consist of such disobedient Persons as the Apostle speaks of 2 Thes 3. 14. For such with whom the Godly in that Church were forbidden to keep company with were sure unfit to be joyned with them as one Body if they appeared such at first and the like may be said of the Church of Sardis Corinth c. Now because these Churches were called Saints and that they had such among them as bad as any in yours you would infer that you may be called so too I grant that these were called Saints but it was not as they were disobedient Persons these never received the name of Saints as they were disobedient but as they being once visibly holy and Saint-like and not so farre degenerated but in a capacity of Recovering their former Estate they bore among others the name of such Now except you first prove that you in your first constitution were Saints visible which in the least measure you have not done there can be no Argument drawn from the Name of them to you I desire if you can to produce one Scripture where in the constitution of an Apostolical Church there was any such distinction made of best and worst and worst of all as you make though there might be a difference in the measures
Psal 63. 1 2. You deny my Minor with the same limitation as you granted the Major God dwels not you say in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I will to gratify and if it be possible to convince you make good that Christ dwels in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church by those three Reasons evidencing his presence amongst us For the fortifying whereof I was sparing in bringing Scripture-proof or farther reason not because I had not store of both but because I judged it needless to light a Candle to the Sun but seeing you tax me for bare Asserting you shall see me strongly Confirming each of the Reasons taking in your own restriction First I prove the Faithfull Constant Preaching of the Word to be a note of Christs presence with a people as a Church Deus 4. 7 8. So nigh unto them this speciall neerness of God is proved because they had the Law set before them i. e. fixed among them Psal 147. 19 20. By Word he means his will revealed in the Scriptures given to his Church as a most precious and peculiar treasure Zech. 8. 23. The reason why the Gentiles should joyn themselves to the Jews is because the Word was with them we have heard by your Preaching this was the great and glorious prerogative of the Jews which afterward they lost and as soon as they lost it ceased to be a Church Acts 13. 46. the Apostle witnesseth this to be the greatest privilege the Jews had Rom. 3. 1 2. If this be a peculiar privilege to the Church of God to have a standing fixed preaching of the Word among them and if no People in the world can be named that had this ordinance of preaching which were not Gods Church then this is a sure sign Secondly it appears that his working saving Grace by this Ordinance is as a sure sign 1 Cor. 14. 24 25. he will report that God is in you as a Church of a truth John 4. 22. Christ proves the Jewes to be a true Church Because Salvation might be had there out of the Church there is no salvation ordinarily If you can shew that Christ is present to Convert c. in any Societie where his word is faithfully and constantly Preached that is not his Church this Reason shall stand for invalid Thirdly the meeting mentioned Matth. 18. you deny not to be a Church-meeting therefore where a Societie meet to worship God by Prayer as you expound it or for the Administration of Church Censures as the place carries it there Christ is present as his Church Now that the Word is faithfully and constantly Preached in our Assemblyes and that Christ Converts c. by our Preaching and that our People meet together to pray in his Name is manifest to all the world that we have idle ignorant Ministers in many Congregations and a great multitude that want the power of Godliness among us c. is acknowledged but it s well known as bad of both sorts were in the Church of the Jewes and in the Apostolicall Churches which notwithstanding remained true Churches while he continued his presence and they met and joyned in his true worship till God gave them a bill of divorce and withdrew his presence and they cast off Gods true worship through obstinacie Those Assemblies that are built upon the Foundation of the Arg. 5. Prophets and Apostles are true Churches Ephes 2. 19 20. But ours are so built for they have the whole Doctrine of the Old Dr. B. and New Testament for the infallible and immoveable ground of their Faith whereby they subsist in Church-Communion I deny you Minor What you mean by these words they have Answ J. O. the whole Doctrine c. is doubtfull if by having of it you mean Christ hath left this Old and New Testament in the world for the immoveable ground of mens Faith that 's true but nothing to the purpose for if so it 's left to all men and many men may also beleeve it to be so and yet be so far from being built upon it as they walk and build directly from it If you mean that they have it in the practise of it so as they practically build upon it that 's false for such Persons are built upon it as the Apostle holds out in that Chapter such who were dead but now alive saved by Grace such who were made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Now the greater part of the men in your Parishes are such as were never spiritually alive lying in their sins still unquickned therefore they are not built upon that Foundation practically When I say our Assemblies are built upon Propheticall and Apostolicall Reply Doctrine I mean there is no other Doctrine taught or own'd with us but what hath warrant from the Old and New Testament Dr. B. if there be shew it now that hence it followes we are therefore Gods true Church is apparent from the Apostles Scope proving the Ephesians to be the Houshold of God because they were so built for that by building is meant Owning and Confessing the truth I prove from that of our Saviour Mat. 16. 18. nor can you shew any Society Confessing the whole truth of God that was not a true Church The want of Practise which you allege in the greatest part of our Members weakens not at all the force of the Argument for the very same is taxed by our Saviour in the Church of Sardis Rev. 3. 1. Thou hast a name to live and art dead the generalitie of the members of that Church were voyd oâ— Grace and ungodly men and yet Christ owns it for his Church in the beginning of that verse and how far the Church of Corinth and other Gospell Churches were from being built practically in your sense you have heard sufficiently and yet blessed be God we have in our Parochiall Churches a competent number of practicall Christians that walk exactly according to the rule of the Gospell for whose sakes if you had the Spirit of Christ you would I suppose acknowlege our whole Societies to be his visible Churches That Church that is the pillar and ground of truth is the true Arg. 6. Church 1 Tim. 3. 15. but so is the Church of England in respect of the profession and maintenance of true Religion which it both Dr. B. supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions whatsoever Revel 2. 13. You subtilly alter the termes of the question that the folly of your Argument may not appear instead of these words the Parishes of this Nation you say the Church of England which you ought not to have done the Argument from these words if it include the Question must proceed thus That Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth is a true Church but so are the Parishes of this Nation in their maintaining and professing true Religion supporting
dexterous dividers of the Word of Truth in our Assemblies and of such whose Ministery God hath blessed with Conversion of Souls it might suffice to prove Gods approving the Ordination which you so vehemently inveigh against you will not own one of all our Ministers to be sent of God how able and holy and successfull soever which shewes your miserable shifting off the force of the Argument because the word General is in the question which you as miserably Misunderstand as if it included all The Text in Timothy cleerly shewes that by dividing the Word of Truth aright Gospell Ministers approve themselves to God and that such as do so are called of God And that in 2 Cor. 3. is a like manifest declaration of a lawfull mission for as much as the Apostle brings it to prove his extraordinary calling of Apostleship to which I add Gods own Word Jer. 23. 22. Nor can you give an instance of Gods honouring any Prophets or Ministers not sent by him whose labours he ever blessed with the winning of souls Those Christian Congregations that seeing their defects and Arg. 9. Dr. B. Corruptions labour after Reformation are Christs true Churches but so do the Congregations of England Ergo I deny your Minor I deny that the Parishes of this Nation Generally Answ I. O. see their defects and Corruptions For first there is amongst all diversities of Religion in the World but one that is onely right Secondly There is in this Nation a great many perhaps half of the Ministers and Parishes that stand in their hearts for the Goverment of Bishops that is now put down and the reason why both these Ministers and People are not so active as others is not for want of will but power to execute their will for had they power according to their will you should find the Parishes of this Nation so far from being generally for that which you call Reformation as I believe you should see Presbytery as well as all others besides their own as soon put down as their Common Prayer Surplice Hood Tippit and Altar c. This being so evident that it needs no proof Common sense proves it from whence against your Minor I thus Reasonâ— although I utterly deny that Presbyterian Government which you would establish to be right yet in this place I will give it to you to see of what advantage it will be to you thus that which you would reform those defects and Corruptions that you would mend are such as prevailed in the time of Prelacy when Bishop were in their pomp and as you would reform it to that which is commonly called Presbytery now those that were commonly called by the name of Cavalliers of which there were many whole Parishes Generaâ—â—y these think which you Reform from is Truth and that which you Reform to is false your Reformation is their deformation and that which you count to be Corruption and defect that they count to be truth and would as willingly have all that they have had as you to have the contrary this being evident your Minor is apparently false for how can the Parishes of this Nation Generally see their defects and corruptions and endeavour a right Reformation Generally when that which one Parish would reform from that another Parish would reform to if it be said that many whole Parishes really see their defects and desire to mend I answer whatsome Parishes of this Nation see is nothing to our purpose the Question in dispute is of the Parishes of this Nation generally You discover much Ignorance in making every diversity of Replie Dr. B. Judgment and Practice in point of Church-Goverment a diversity of Religion difference among Christians in higher matters and much neerer the foundation hinders not but they may be of one and the same Religion and so Episcopal men Presbyterians and Independents nor do any of these cast off Antipoedobaptists as men of another Religion but pitty their folly in cutting themselves from Gods Churches by denying all besides their own Societies to be true Churches You mistake much if you think I intend in my Argument the desire and endeavor of the whole body of our People in all our Parishes for a right Reformation the greater part in all times have been backward to good but if you go thorow all the Parishes of England you will find very few where there are not some whose faces are Sion-ward and these with a very great number of Ministers in all quarters earnestly desire that in every Congregation there might be set up a Gospell-government You seem to me cleerly to grant my Major proposition and to yield that there are some of our Parishes who see their defects and corruptions and labour after Reformation If you will acknowledge that these yea but one of these are true Churches I will say it argues ingenuity in you and farther give you satisfaction that through the tender mercy of our God it is with England at this day as it was with those fields our Saviour speaks of John 4. 35. That they are white already to harvest ready to receive a Gospell-Reformation and had been ere now in a more blessed case had not those of your way hindred the work which I pray that God would lay it to your heart that it may not be layd to your charge Drawn from Cant. 1. 7 8. They that walk in the footsteps of Arg. 10. Dr. B. Answ J. O. Christs antient flock are true Churches but ours do so Ergo. If you mean Christs antient flock recorded in the holy Word of God your Minor is denied this is the cause we separate from you because you have and do tread in such steps and pathes as we cannot find in Scripture but in by-paths of the inventions of man and I cannot but wonder why you left your Minor destitute of all proof seeing you cannot but know that it is always denied whether you think it is without dispute or whether you think if you should have compared the Parishes of this Nation with the Churches of Christ mentioned in the Scripture your proof would appear weaker than your bare affirmation or whether you thought barely to affirm was best that so a bare deniall might be returned truly I cannot judge sure I am those that write to satisfiâ— do not in disputable matters only say it is so without proof for to me a bare affirmation without Scripture or reason is proof but weak had you but proved your Minor the Controversie had been ended but seeing you have not I must yet say they that walk not in the footsteps of Christs Antient Flock are no true Churches this is your own by Rule of Contraries but the Parishes of this Nation walk not c. Ergo as is already proved from Acts 2. I thought it superfluous here to compare our Churches with Reply the Churches of Christ mentioned in Scripture having done it already if you look upon the Flock of Christ
And when I see it I will return you an answer To the second viz. that we rob Gods people of their right c. I answer The expression Rob is as unsuitable as untrue for we take not away that in the night nor secretly in the day that which we are afraid to be taken with in the light but what we withhold we proclame and give nay invite all to bring in their evidence That if they for Infants can lay just claim thereunto they shall be admitted Sir take heed you pronounce not sentence of Condemnation against your selves for I think was it material it might easily be made appear that you rob Goa's people of their right and that in many things But that we do not rob Goa's people of their right you shall be witness and your self shall answer your self and that may the soonest give your self and others satisfact on thus from the notation of the word Church which signifies you say argument thirteen a company called out from the world unto Christ come together upon that call c. Whence I thus reason If the word Church signifie such a company so call'd so come then it 's impossible for such who were never thus called thus come neither yet are in a capacity to be of that company For words significant arisâ— from the nature of the thing to which they are applied and where the answering of the signification of a word is not to be found there that word is improperly applied as I think all men will grant and Scripture example is full but the word Church so signifies This is your own Ergo. Now that Infants are not called out of the world by the Word come together upon that call c. is undeniable Therefore Infants are not of that Company Thus if to deny Infants Church-membership be rebery it 's the Notation of the Word Church and your thirteenth Argument that is the theef Sir you must either repeal this thirteenth Argument or it will utterly repeal Infants Church-membership and put you to prove where and when it was done and for Acts the 2. and Romans 11. where you say it 's Confirmed I answer When you have reconciled this thirteenth Argument and Infant-Church-membership together and drawn your Arguments from Acts 2. Rom. 11. to prove it I will return you an answer And for your third reason where you say we want a true form c. I answer we make not an express Covenant the form of a visible Church as you well know therefore this makes nothing against us we may be true Churches for all that if what you say be true Either our Congregations are true Churches or there were none Arg. 12. Dr. B. since Christ and the Apostles for what Churches can be shewed that have come neerer the rule in respect of Doctrine and for Government the Jus divinum regiminis Ecclesiastici And Provincial vindication have sufficiently evinced the Presbyterian government to lay just claim to divine Right But the latter is false for the gates of Hell never did never shall prevail against the Church 1. To say that if you be not true Churches there have been none Answ J. O. since Christ c. is confidently to dictat and Magisterially to set down without the least colour of proof that which is so principal a Question betwixt us for we have abundantly offered to make good that we come neerer the rule first in Respect of doctrine than you and for government which you say is sufficiently evinced in the Jus Divinum c. I shall pay you with your own coyn and that may soonest satisfie thus your Presbyterian government hath been abundantly confuted and the Independâ—â—cy of Churches in Relation to a sufficiency in herself for the performance of all the Ordinances of Christ by the learned Mr. Hooker in his survey of Church discipline Secondly I deny that the latter is false by vertue of that Scripture if you understand it of the visible Church which is only to your purpose for the gates of Hell may nay hath prevailed yea overcome the visible Church as the Revelations abundantly makes manifest Sir I wonder you have not so much foresight as to see how upon your own * He that can make it appear that this place is meant of the visible Church and that which is a true Church shall alwaies visibly appear will do the Pope essential service he no doubt will return him many thanks he will undeniably prove Rome a true Church because Rome once only visibly appeared keeping down all others principles your own arguments wound your self For where was the visibility of your Presbyterian Church in the midst of Popery except you will say Rome was it where is the line of your succession I doubt it is utterly lost and so upon your own interpretation of Scripture you prove your selves false Churches From the notation of the word Church which signifies a Company Arg. 13. Dr. B. called out of the world unto Christ by the word come together upon that call all are called externally and some effectually This Argument fiâ—rcely fights against nay cuts the throat of the Answ I. O. Causes it should defend for the word Church signifying such a Company so called so come doth utterly exclude all not so called so come being of that Company now beyond dispute it is that the generality of People in the Parishes of this Nation were never visibly called out of the world c. Therefore not possibly to be concluded of that Company I had alwaies thought there had been a World in England what are all the Carnal wicked covetous persons in the Parishes of this Nation called out from the world to Christ if they have not as any man that hath but the least spark of godliness may easily see how dare you apply this notation of the word to them if this be not to sow Pillows under all Arm-holds making them trust in living words saying the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord so you the Church Church-Members faithful people c. I am much mistaken Sir take beed lest that fall upon you spoken of Pro. 17. 15. all you say called externally some effectually Answer if by external call you mean a bare call by the Preaching of the word without a visible submission thereunto you are contrary to your self which is not of a verbal call simply but of a calling Oâ—t and a comming thereupon unto Christ if you say they are visibly called out c. nothing can be spoken more falsly common sense proves the contrary and what the effectual calling of some is to prove that all are externally called out according to the notation of the word is to me a Paradox Our Churches are in Covenant with God Ergo They are true Churches the consequence is evident from Psal 50. 5. where the Arg. 14. D. B. Prophet implies that by being in Covenant with God Men are really a Church