when you haue a long time taken on you yéeld the whole matter vnto Master Doctor Some For what hath he said more then that it was and is true Baptisme touching the outward washing Doth he euer say that all which had the true sâ—ale had also the inward grace And for warding the blow of flat schisme it is a very weake blow The Romish Antichrist vsurped an vniust power and tyrannie and brought in many most wicked abominations cannot the Churches cast him foorth with his inuentious but they commit Schisme Can any thing be more friuolous Are all seuerall kingdomes tied vnto Rome or shall we be tied to ioyne where there be some remnants of a Church with Idolatrie And concerning the rest your self do in effect now confesse that some part of Christs ministry remaineth in the popery when you say that their Baptisme concerning the outward washing is true Baptisme And moreouer what should be we dispute not but this proueth that the true seale of Gods couenant is giuen to open Idolaters For the seale is the same in it selfe but the Idolater hath not the fruite of it vntill he come to true faith And so your next absurdities fall off themselues séeing the hauing of the true seale that is the outward washing in Baptisme dooth not make the papists true Christians nor proue that Gods couenant of peace and loue dooth belong to the Romish harlot so many among them as come to true faith receiue that vse of the seale All this I say dooth follow vpon your owne confession who build with the one hand and breake down with the other But it passeth all the rest that then Christ must néeds haue diuers seuerall bodies or else he cannot stand an head to thrée so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England and the Church of Geneua Why Master Barrow you wil not deny but that to the elect in the Church of Rome Christ is the head And this is further to be noted that when we speak of a visible Church we speake not of men alone but of Gods ordinances And so touching the holy Sacrament of Baptisme in the Church of Rome and so much of the truth as remaineth Christ is the Author of them and so standeth the head of his own he is not the head of the Apostasie or to the wicked inuentions So then in all Churches Christ is the Author and head of that which is his ordinance and of those which belong vnto him What blasphemies are then hereby allowed And if the Papists haue quite ouerthown the one Sacrament by turning it from a Sacrament into a Sacrifice propitiatory what reason is it therefore to say Baptisme is ouerthrowne We must yet a little further deale about the Church of Rome because you make all our people to be but as heathen without the couenant and not rightly entred to become a visible Church but all receiued in at the sound of her Maiesties trumpet I say our people stood vnder the couenant before as a part of the visible Church and that our soueraigne Quéene did not compell those which before were not vnder the couenaÌ„t to become the church but by her regall power giuen vnto her of God banished the vsurped power of Antichrist abolished Idolatry and compelled her people hauing receaued the seale of the couenant and professing Christ to receiue also the true doctrine This was not to begin a Church but to reforme a Church hereupon it falleth out in question whether the Church of Rome were the visible Church of Christ in time of Idolatry It is vsually said that the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church I said we may rather say to speake more plainely the papacy was in the Church because Antichrist who brought in all the papacy erected his throne in the Church You begin with this Master Barrow and say that I hold it not enough to affirme with the learned deuines that the inuisible Church of God is in the papacy as in all other places of the world because God hath his elect there and in all other places but to be singular I haue inuerted the proposition and say that the papacy is in the Church O Master Barrow it is your bold ignorance as in all other matters Who be those learned diuines that when they say the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church doo meane no more but that there be Gods Elect as in other places of the world If you haue any modesty bring forth some one learned deuine which is of that iudgement I did like rather to say the papacy is in the Church then to say the Church is in the papacie because I sée diuers doo mistake it as though it were onely meant that in the papacy there are Gods Elect and no further that is no outward visible Church in any respect I doo not differ any iot in the spéech from the sense which Master Caluine and others doo giue for when I say the papacy is in the church but the papacy is not the church by the papacy we must néeds vnderstand that vsurped tyranny of the Pope and his Clergy with all their abominable inuentions By the Church we may not vnderstand only Gods Elect but also so much of Gods ordinances as remaine not only in the points of doctrine and publike profession of the name of Christ but also in the holy Baptisme the seale of the couenant which all haue and may so farre be called the visible Church That the papacy should inuade the visible Church remaine in it and not vtterly or quite destroy it I did alleage that Saint Paule saith Antichrist should sit in Gods Temple Now let vs see whether this bée not the meaning of the most learned diuines when they say the Church is in the papacy Master Caluine handleth this point in the fourth booke of his Institutions Chap. 2. section 11. 12. Which booke though it be in our language yet is it little read and studied of our people as the weakenes and readines of many to be seduced by hereticks and Schismaticks dooth euidently declare I will set downe his words for such as haue not the booke But yet as of old time saith Master Caluine among the Iewes there remained certaine peculiar prerogatiues of the Church so doo wee not at this day take from the papists those steppes of the Church which God would haue to remaine among them notwithstanding the dissipation God had once made his couenant with those Iewes that same couenant did continue vpholden by the stablenes of it selfe as it were wrastling against their impietie rather then kept of them Such therefore is the certainty and constancy of Gods goodnes that there remained the couenant of the Lord neither could his faith giuen be made voyde by their vnfaithfulnes neither could circumcision be so prophaned by their impure hands but that it was still the true signe and Sacrament of his couenant Whereupon
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
the Lord called the Children which were borne vnto them his sonnes Ezech. 16. which nothing at all perteined vnto him but by a speciall blessing So when he hath left his couenant in France Italie Germany Spayne England since these Prouinces haue beene oppressed with the tyrannie of Antichrist yet that his Couenant might remaine inuiolable he first there preserued Baptisme the testimony of his couenant which being consecrate with his owne mouth retaineth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlines of man then furthermore he hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there should other remnants also remaine least the Church should vtterly perish And as oftentimes buildings are so pulled downe that the foundations and ruines remaine so hee hath not suffered his Church to be subuerted by Antichrist euen from the foundation or to be laide euen with the ground howsoeuer to punish mens ingratitude which had despised his word he hath suffered horrible shaking and dissipation to chance but euen after the laying wast hee would haue the building remaine halfe pulled downe Whereas therefore wee will not simplie graunt to the Papists the title of the Church we doo not therefore deny that there bee Churches among them but onely wee contend about the true and lawful ordering of the Church which is required both in the Communion of the holy things which are the signes of the profession also of doctrine most chiefelie Daniel and Paule foretold that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God among vs wee account the Bishop of Rome the Captaine and standerd bearer of that wicked and abominable Kingdome That his seate is placed in the Temple of God thereby is meant that his Kingdome shall be such as may abolish neither the name of Christ nor of the Church Hereby therefore it is manifest that we denie not but that there remaine Churches also vnder his tyrannie but yet such as hee hath prophaned with sacrilegious impietie such as hee hath afflicted with outragious dominion such as he hath corrupted and almost killed with euill and deadly doctrines as it were with poysoned drinkes in which Christ lieth halfe buried the Gospel ouerwhelmed godlines expelled the worship of God almost abolished furthermore in which all things are so confused and out of order that there appeareth the face of Babylon rather then of the holy citie of God Briefelie I say they be Churches in as much as the Lord dooth there merueilouslie preserue the remnants of his people howsoeuer miserably dispersed and scatred and in as much as there remaine some badges or seales of the Church and these especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the diuell nor the wickednes of men can destroy but on the other side because those notes or markes are blotted out which wee ought chiefely to respect in this controuersie I say that euerie one of their assemblies and the whole bodie wanteth the lawfull forme of a Church Thus farre be Master Caluines words tell me now Master Barrow is Master Caluine to be accounted among the learned Diuines Dooth he say the Church is in the papacy that is no more but that the Elect are among them as in other places of the World Looke also what I haue said touching this whole matter which he dooth not here say yea euen from that which is in Ezechiel 16. Where you aske who but this peruerse fellow speaking of me could thus stumble and cauill at those words my sonnes and my daughters c But if it bee not plaine enough which Master Caluine saith in this which I haue recited to proue that you would beare the simple in hand that the learned Diuines are of another minde and yet vnderstand not their minde I will adde a little more out of the same Author In his Epistle 404. thus hee writeth Quòd ecclesiae reliquias manere in papatu dico nō restringo ad electos qui illic dispersi sunt sed ruinas dissipatae ecclesiae illic extare intelligo Ac ne mihilongis rationibus disputandum sit nos pauli autoritate contentos esse decet qui Antichristum in temple deisessurum pronuntiat quamquam hoc rationibus satis validis me probasse puto ecelesiam licet semiruptam imo silubet diruptam ac deformem aliquam tamen manere in papatu In that I say the remnants of the Church remaine in the papacy I doo not restraine it to the Elect which are dispersed there but I meane that the ruines of a dispersed Church are extant among them And that I may not dispute the matter with reasons at large it becommeth vs to be content and satisfied with the authority of Paule which pronounceth that Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God Albeit I suppose I haue proued this with reasons strong enough that there remaineth neuerthelesse some Church in the papacy although halfe broken downe or if you will broken downe and deformed Also Master Beza Epistle 81. page 356. For the remnants of the Church in the papacy is of the same minde affirming that there remaine not onely Gods Elect but also the Sacrament of Baptisme and sundry poynts of sound doctrine Now let vs see what horrible blasphemies you say will followe of this that I say Antichrist should sit in the Church and yet the same remayne still the visible Church so farre foorth as Master Caluines words and Master Bezaes doo import For when you will needes haue it that God hath giuen me vp into a reprobate sense the matter toucheth not me so much as Master Caluine and Beza and many other most worthie men which so expound it Nay if God open your eyes you shall see whether you doo not like Rabsaka reproach the Lord God who hath vttered it by his Apostle The first is this If Antichrist may be sayd to sit raigne and remayne in the Church of God then Christ is not made heire and Lord of all and set as King vpon Mount Sion A worthie collection is it not because God in righteous iudgement for the punishment of those that receiued not the loue of the trueth giueth power vnto Satan and Antichrist to seduce the multitude in the visible Church Christ is not heire of all things nor raigneth as K. vpon Mount Sion Wil you say if the diuell haue a kingdome in the world Christ is not Lord of the whole world Mount Sion may be vsed for the visible Church but most properly for the inuisible which is the Communion of Saints of which are none but the elect Satan and Antichrist are not able to pluck one of these out of his hand he raigneth ouer them and in them Moreouer he raigneth ouer the whole visible Church and ouer the whole world for hee is ascended and filleth all things so that Satan Antichrist and all Tyrants can proceed no further then his will The next is If Antichrist sit in the Church then Christ is either cast out of his house made subiect vnto Antichrist or els deuideth with him Christ
themselues to the Priests Luk. 17. 14. which were also to offer according to the law And this was not long before he suffered You do very fondly imagine the if the Priests the Scribes and Pharisies and Saduces and the multitude which claue vnto them were the visible Church then were there two Churches vnles we will denie that our Sauiour his Disciples were the Church For at y◠time they were all in the same visible Church euen those open wicked and the good Our Sauiour doth reprehend them and layeth open their wickednes to the end that men might beware and not be seduced and kept from truth by them But why are they not cast forth The Prophets in olde time did sharply reprehend the wicked of all sorts in the Church but they had not the ordinary power to execute the censure of excommunication no more had our Sauiour himselfe There be diuers testimonies and examples of the holy scriptures which I alledged to proue this thing which you knitte vp short but in your other booke you deale in them at large And because Master Caluine hath written strongly and plentifully in these matters against the Annabaptists and such as most wickedly did condemne the Churches in his time you take vpon you to confute him as if he were the author of these things and you tearme vs his wretched disciples Whereas in very déede M. Caluine followeth but the steps of the auncient writers Augustine and the rest agaynst the Catharists and Donatists And you lighting into their Tents set very freshly vpon the worke euen as a chiefe Captayne to repayre and fortifie the ruines of that auncient Catharisme and Donatisme and yet can bring nothing which they brought not Touching the reformation by Princes which compell their subiects that professe Christ and haue the seale of the couenant to forsake Idolatrie and to imbrace the holy word and Sacraments I haue spoken before and therefore I come to the 17. page of your booke where you write after this sort The next shiftes these Balaamities haue for the aministring vnto and Communicating with and retaining the prophane in the bosome of their church are certaine arguments drawne by Master Caluine from Matth. 13. against the Annabaptists comparing the church to a corne field where the good seed and the bad grow together to a net and in Matth. 3. To a floar where the corne and the chaffelye together In deed Master Barrow these were speciall places which the auncient Fathers stood vpon against the Donatists and Master Caluine against the Annabaptists and which we in as great right vrge against you and your sect If we bee Balaamites then what was Master Caluine what was Augustine and all the rest Against whome haue you powred foorth your railings Take héede it be not against our Lord Iesus himselfe being against his expresse word for let vs sée how you can auoyde these places Touching the parable of the séed you oppose as you say against Master Caluine and his Disciples first the interpretation of our Sauiour himselfe who saith not that the field is the Church but the field is the world And so the good séed and the bad are together in the world but not in the Church And then you shew an absurditie of flat contradiction of the holy Scriptures which would follow if we take it that the good séed and the bad should grow together in the Church The contradiction is this there is power and commaundement giuen to the Church to cast forth the open wicked and here he bids let them alone Therefore this let them alone let them grow together vntil the haruest must néeds be expounded let them alone and let them grow together in the world but not in the Church In déed your exposition Master Barrow is the very same which the Donatists made and obstinately stoode vpon The field is the world our Sauiour hath said it the truth hath saide it accursed be he that shal gainesay it but to gather from hence that the good séed and the bad shal not be together in the church but in the world is directly to ouerthrow the whole parable For first what is it which is resembled or likened The words are plaine it is the Kingdome of Heauen The Kingdome of Heauen saith he is like c. What is it which is here called the Kingdome of Heauen is the world so called Who dare say so It is the Church in which there is the Gospell of the Kingdome and in which Christ dooth raigne If our Sauiour had ment to sec forth and to resemble the state of the world by the good séed and the bad mingled together as he saith the enemy did sow the tares ana mes◠tou sitou in the middest or among the wheate and that they grew vp together or to say looke how in a field good séede and bad grow together so in the world good men and bad it could not then be saide the Kingdome of Heauen is like but the state of the world is like Was it euer heard of that a man would expound a parable that is a similitude and exclude that which is resembled by the similitude For if the good séed and the bad sowen and growing together in the field do not resemble and set forth the state of the visible church while it is also in the field that is to say in this world mingled of good and bad men shew what there is in the whole parable whereunto the Kingdome of Heauen is likened Moreouer in the exposition of the parable our Sauiour saith as the tares are gathered and burned so shall it be in the end of this world the sonne of man shall send his Angels which shall gather out of his Kingdome all offences and those which worke iniquitie c. If they shall be gathered out of his Kingdome which is his Church peculiarly so called though he be Lord of Heauen and earth then are they vntill the end of the world in his Church I doubt not Master Barrow but that simple men yea poore Children looking vpon this parable and considering what it is likened and how Christ dooth expound it shall bée able to sée what a spirit of giddines God hath in iudgement cast vpon yée for the loftines of your mindes And now for that absurdity of flat cóntradiction in the Scriptures which you imagine if wee expound it that the good and the bad shall bee mingled in the church so long as it is in the field There is no such thing as I will shew by as great an absurdity which will follow of that sense which you giue for speaking of the wicked in the Church if he should say let them alone it would ouerthrow the censures Ecclesiasticall which are expressely commaunded then speaking of the wicked in the world and saying let them alone let them grow together least ye pluck vp the wheat it should ouerthrow the power of Kings and rulers in putting euil dooers to
⧠A short Reply vnto the last printed books of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatists in England VVherein is layd open their grosse ignorance and foule errors vpon which their whole building is founded By George Gyfford Minister of Gods holy worde in Maldon Imprinted at London by Thomas Orwin for Tobie Cooke and are to be solde at the Tygers head in Pauls Churchyard 1591 To the Reader THere were good Christian Reader foure haynous accusatioÌ„s laid against the Church of England for which the accusers haue condemned her all her publique assemblies as most wicked Antichristian Idolatrons synagogues of Sathan I shewed how falsely they doo accuse and howe presumptuously agaynst God they doo condemne And that indeede they are the very same with the auncient Donatists They haue replyed and published in print their defence but their bookes are intercepted yet some few haue escaped and are dispersed among theyr fellowes Wherefore I hold it needfull to publish some answere not dealing with euery error and absurditie for that would aske the trauaile of some yeares but onely with the chiefe grounds of their Schisme In this I trust euery simple man that hath a Christian heart shall see the effectuall power of Sathan when he turneth himselfe into the likenes of an Angell of light to seduce ignorant men which are lifted vp in their mindes with opinion of their knowledge For being men vnlearned onely some little froth excepted I speake thus because they peruert that little which they haue read in other means writings in sundry poynts yet as if they were sent from heauen with reuelations or as great Apostles they take vpon them to confute and controll and condemne all Churches and all the most worthy Instruments which GOD hath raysed vp in these last times For knowe this good Reader that the foure accusations which they haue brought agaynst the Church of England to condemne her â—â—â— also though with some differences brought against all Churches in Europe and that in expresse wordes in these their last bookes For the prescript formes of prayers which all the Reformed Churches doo vse they condemne as most horrible and 〈◊〉 blasphemie The people they say are prophane multitudes They say that in all Europe in all these knowen partes of the world there is no minister of Christ The gouernment by Elderships they condemne as a most proude thing as being without any warrant of Gods word Doo but readeouer these fewe things which I haue noted out of their bookeâ— and iudge how fit they be for such a work as they haue taken in hand whether it be like that GOD hath sent them euen as it were Moses and Aaron to conduct his people out of Aegipt from vnder the bondage of Pharaoh for so they take it as appeareth by their owne wordes speaking of those which cleaue vnto them Many they see by Gods mightie hand say they escaped and marching with the banner of the Gospell displayed before all the inchaunters of Aegipt and Pharaoh his troupes pag. 5. of the Epistle And if it seeme lost time to stand vpon such grosse things yet take this profit as to see how needfull it is not to be high minded and presumptuously bolde in Gods matters but to feare and tremble with Humilitie To Master Barrow and Master Greenwood YE complaine much of hard dealing offered you and say ye are blasphemed with odious tearmes And if ye doo erre your desire is to be reduced by a Christian manner It is certaine when men are cleane awâ—ye in simplicitie the matter toucheth but themselues they are to be dealt withall without seeking their disgrace But when they be publike and notorious seducers defacing Christs Ministers and many poore sheepe of Christ are in hazard to be spoyled They that take it to be vncharitable dealing to disclose and to paynt out such seducers in their colours and to disgrace them vtterly to the end that the simple may not be spoyled by theÌ„ as a praie doo want some iudgement For as it is Christian charitie in the Shepheards to deale meekely with the sheepe so is it high treachery and vnfaythfull dealing to Christ and his Church when the VVoolfe dooth come in sheepes clothing not to pluck it off and to let the sheepe see that he is a VVoolfe VVhy else did our Sauiour call the Pharisies hypocrites Serpents and generations of Vipers VVhy sayd S. Paule of the false Apostles beware of dogges Ye haue drawen many into an outragious presumption against God and his people flat contrary to the rules of his holy word as shall appeare in the discourse Ye hauerent out of the hearts of many all reuerence and loue towards the preachers of the Gospell and led them into such a presumptuous opinion of their owne vnderstanding that if they become not heretikes yet experience doth teach that many of them growe into irreligious prophanenes Master Barrow and Master Greenwood I doo not know your persons and I protest vnto ye there is no priuate thing hath moued me to seeke your disgrace but indeede the care of Christs sheepe And let it appeare by the things which follow whether I haue done ye any wrong A short Replie vnto the last printed Bookes of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatistes in England I Did lay to your charge M Barrow and Master Greenwood a matter very haynous and detestable yea most odious in the sight of euery good man as namely intollerable pride presumption and wicked intrusion into Gods office for that ye vtterly condemne and abandon all our assemblies as haynousty faulty and so wilfully obstinate in such principall transgressions as that they haue forfayted the couenant and are separated from the fayth and communion of Christ I set downe reasons from Gods word to conuince yee in this that if it pleased God ye might repent for this sauage crueltie by which ye indeuour to rend and teare vp all the Lords tender plants If not yet that others might see tremble at your inordinate and outragious boldenes Vnto this ye haue replied stifly affirming and labouring to maintayne that ye haue rightly condemned and cast foorth our assemblies as most wicked Antichristian Synagogues Adding moreouer that ye lie in prison as Christs poore afflicted seruants the Lords witnesses agaynst vs that your bonds and sufferings are glorious and that I as a wicked false Prophet and as a marked seruant of Antichrist haue vncharitably reuiled ye both for those former wordes as also that I that tearme you Donatistes Schismatikes c. If ye be Christs seruants and haue iustly accused condemned and cast forth doing no more that Christ hath sent ye for and authorised ye to doo then haue I vnchristianly and as a false Prophet indeede reuiled ye and your glorious sufferinges But then take this withall by the way that the Donatists in olde time and the Annabaptists of late daies were Christs poore afflicted
is not cast out of his house nor made subiect these be most friuolous and fantasticall imaginations but in his most high and soueraigne power he vseth Antichrist and Satan as the instruments of his wrath not vtterly to rase and destroy his Temple but miserably to afflict the chosen and so seduce the reprobate euen all wicked hypocrites which are in the visible Church I knowe not what you will vnderstand by diuiding but the diuell may in some sense be sayd to diuide with God in that he receiueth one part vnto damnation The third is If Antichrist sit in the church then the church of Christ may remayne subiect vnto and be gouerned by Antichrist Here we must distinguish First the visible Church consiseth of men and of Gods ordinances The men are of two sorts the elect and the reprobate He exerciseth a sauage tyrannie and oppresseth the elect whome yet he cannot bring into his subiection to make them hang their faith upoÌ„ him or his lawes For God did miraculously preserue a remnant in the poperie which were not vtterly poysoned He corrupteth the lawes and ordinances of Christ but yet had not power giuen him to destroy all His full dominion is ouer the reprobate which receiue his marke and worship him The fourth is If Antichrist sit in the Church then the Church is subiect vnto two heads and Christ then is not the onely head This is fully answered in the former for his tyrannie and vsurpation dooth not make him head but vnto those whose head Christ is not more then by hypocriticall profession of his name The fift is If Antichrist in the Church then Antichrists ministers and marked seruants may be brought into and set ouer the Church of God then is not Christs ministrie which he hath ordeined in his Gospell and his Church permanent vnto the worlds end but variable at the will of man and then may the Church of God cast out Christs ministrie and receiue Antichrists This is also most friuolous for as Antichrist did almost destroy all but yet not all in other things so in the ministrie for the ministrie of Christ was not vtterly destroyed Agayne the Church if you vnderstand Gods true people did not this but Antichrist did it The sixt is That if Antichrists lawes may be brought and set vp and remayne in the Church then Christ is not the onely Prophet and law giuer and then may the Church be built vpon another foundation then vpon Gods word Christ is the onely true Prophet whose lawes onely are wholesome Antichrist hath vsurped a power to make lawes and to set them vp in the Church The elect though some of them for a time haue gone a stray and followed Antichrist vntill it pleased GOD to open their eyes and many of them holding Christ haue been infected and stayned with sundrie errors of Antichrist yet their saluation being onely through faith it cannot be sayd that they were built vpon any other foundation then that which the Prophets and Apostles haue layd The reprobate which haue worshipped the beast though in respect that hauing been borne vnder the Christian profession and had the true seale of the Couenant and professed the name of Christ they might bee the visible Church or of the visible Church yet they were not built vpon Christ vnto saluation but vpon the lawes of Antichrist vnto destruction The seuenth is That if all Antichrists abominations heresies and Idolatries may bee brought into and remayne in the Church of God then no blasphemie heresie Apostasie or any thing that man can commit or deuise can break the couenant If the fayth of God might be made of none effect by the vnfaithfulnes of men it were a wofull case The couenant of God is founded vpon free grace The Lord would not euen because of his Couenant suffer the deuill and Antichrist vtterly to deface his Temple but preserued the holy seede preserued some of his ordinances yea so farre that in some sorte the Couenant was not disanulled to the very reprobate but that outwardly they stoode vnder it in their Apostasie and it might bee said of them though indeede they were no true Children as Saint Paul sayth of the rebellious Iewes theirs is the Couenant and the Adoption The eight is That if those that worship the beast and his Image may be sayd to be in the Church and their seede outwardly within the Couenant then the most abominable and execrable in this estate may be sayd members of Christ washed and purged with his blood sainctified and led by his spirite in assurance of saluation for none can be sayd to bee within the Church but the members of the Church And whosoeuer we may affirme to be within the Church those so long as they continue in that estate we are also to iudge assuredly saued for any thing to vs reuealed or knowen to the contrary These â—re things easily spoken by such as are bolde to vtter whatsoeuer they imagine The Prophets complayned that the great multitude both of Iuda and the ten Tribes were rebels and that the Lord had but a remnant among them shew when that multitude of open wicked ones and their seede were cast out from being the visible Church then shew when they were receiued in agayn For both these you must do because the whole nation when Christ came were the children of the Couenant it is sayd that Christ came among his owne and his owne receiued him not You must prooue that the Scribes and Pharisies the high Priests and all the Capitall enemies of our Sauiour Christ were deemed vndoubtedly saued euen when they shewed their enmitie against him For they were then in the Church They could not sit in Moses chayre and not be in the Church The Uineyard was not taken from those wicked husbandmen which had slayn the seruants vntill they had slayn the sonne and heire himselfe These things are so manifest by the Scriptures Master Barrow that if it shall not please God to open your eyes to see your palpable grosse ignorauce and bolde presumption yet others may see and tremble least God giue them ouer also for the pride of their hearts Whereas I sayd that the Apostasie is in the Church but not the Church you think it strange repugnancie Yet indéed there is none as may appeare by that which I haue set down before and should appeare vnto you if your minde were not so deepely infected with the principles of Donatisme You runne still vpon this Rock that because none ought to bee in the Church but such as appeare godly therefore no open Idolaters can be sayd to be in the visible Church to stand outwardly and their seede in any respect vnder the couenant I haue plainely prooued the contrary What ought to be is one thing and what hath béen or what is is another To your other question I answere that it is no Schisme to depart from the Church of Rome although in some respects they were
death which is expressely commaunded for I trust Master Barrow ye will not deny Christian Kings to be one part of the seruants of the master of the house Then whereas you reason thus the power of excommunication which is giuen to the Church and which the Church is commaunded to execute may not be ouerthrowne but if Christ will to let the tares grow in the Church he forbiddeth to execute that power and soâ—t is ouerthrowne therefore he doth not speake of open wickednes in the Church but in the world I will reason agaynst your exposition thus The power which God hath giuen vnto the ciuill Magistrates to put murtherers and other wicked malefactors to death is not to be ouerthrowne but if Christ will men to let the wicked ones in the world alone will haue theÌ„ grow to the haruest least in plucking them vp they destroy the wheate hee taketh away that power from the Magistrates Therefore this parable must not bée taken of the good and the bad together in the world And mark how he sayth not let them alone because it belongeth not vnto ye but let them alone least ye pluck vp the wheate What then shall we neither take it of the Church nor of the world because of an absurditie which seemeth to followe on either side Of the world indeed it cannot bee taken as I haue shewed before because he sayth not the world is like but the kingdome of heauen is like but of the Church it is sayd that as the good seede and the bad are sowen and grow together vntill haruest in the mans field so the good and bad men are mixed in the Church so long as it remayneth in the world How then for these words let them alone let them growe vnto the haruest It is plaine if we will auoyd absurdities on both sides that our Sauiour doth not here meddle either with the Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall power but as it is the manner in parables to vtter some sayings which are onely to shew some poynt of doctrine not to be taken stricktly according to the letter As for example when our Sauiour would shew in that place Luk. 16. which is partly a parable that such as cannot be brought to repentance by hearing Moses and the Prophets will not repent if one should rise from the dead to bring in this doctrine the damned soule is sayd to intreate Abraham that hee would send Lazarus vnto his fathers house to warne his brethren least they should come into that place Shall we think that damned soules haue such a care that others may repent and be saued Nay as I sayd it is onely to bring in a doctrine What is the doctrine then which our Sauiour doth bring in by these words let them alone let them grow together vnto the haruest This it is that when the Christian Princes haue done what they can in reforming the Church and put the wicked malefactors to death and when the censures ecclesiasticall bee most diligently and wisely executed yet will there bee heapes of vngodly ones in the Church and that seeing it cannot be auoyded men are not to make Schismes and so to rend vp the wheate but meekly to expect the haruest when the full separation shall be made Be not therefore Master Barrow so absurd as by an imagined absurditie to ouerthrowe the doctrine of a parable so cleerely expressed The next place to prooue that the open wicked shall alwayes be mixed with the good in the Church is the parable of the draw â—et out of the same chapter You say this is graunted to be vnderstood of the planted Church Who are they which graunted this Indeed the Donatists granted this and it is some gentlenes that you will graunt so much For if in this parable the kingdome of heauen be the visible Church which is compared to the net which draweth together good and bad why is not the kingdome of heauen in the former parable also the Church and so the estate therof likened while it is in the field vnto the wheat and the tares growing together You say the euil fishes are not open sinners but hypocrites and so sayd the Donatists And I meruaile you shewe no reason for it seeing the diuell did suggest this friuolous shewe of reason vnto the Donatists that hypocrites are very fitly resembled by fishes in the net vnder the water which the fisher men cannot see vntill the net bee drawne to land This I haue answered in my former booke There is no doubt but that close hypocrites which outwardly appeare holy are one great part of those euill fishes which the net of the Gospell draweth together but to exclude all the rest there is no reason The place in Math. 3. He shall purge his floar and gather the wheate into his barne but hee will burne the chaffe with vnquenchable fire dooth manifestly shewe that as the corne and chaffe for a time lye vppon the floar so the good and the bad lye mingled together in the visible Church Here you make an exposition of your owne and then take on grieuously that Christs Church should be compared to such a floar as the chaffe and the corne lye together And aske what the Church then differeth from the world It is certaine that both the ciuill and ecclesiasticall power ought to bee imployed with all diligence and care that may bee to purge the Church that albeit the floar cannot be cleane rid of the chaffe yet it may bee rid so farre as men are able That is not the question but when these dueties of men haue been neglected and that there he heapes of chaffe in which the graynes of corne doo lye couered whether it bee not still the visible Church It is a most cléere case that in the Church of Israel which at that time was the visible Church there were very great heapes of chaffe and very fewe graynes of good corne in comparison of the whole multitude Iohn Baptist threatneth eternall iudgement vnto those hypocrites wicked and faithlesse people shewing that the place they held in the Church for a time should nothing helpe seeing the Lord will fanne them out like chaffe which for a time lyeth with the corne but defileth not the corne nor cannot turne it into chaffe You thinke you haue great hold that hee speaketh of separating the chaffe from the corne but answere this one question was it not his floar that is his visible Church out of which he would purge the chaffe Doth he make it his floar by purging it or was it his floar before it was purged The words are cléere hee shall purge his floar c. whether the open wicked pollute the holy things of God or the conscience of the faithfull which doo communicate with them I referre the reader to those things which I haue noted betwéene the ancient Churches and the Donatists where euery thing hath been as strongly vrged by those Donatists as you are able or any of your sect Seeing
which would not yeeld to receiue any fruite or comfort by their prayers I take it Master Barrow you haue the letter If you haue it shew it vnto some honest man that may speake for you and defend ye not to be past shame in forging such a sense If ye haue it not I can let ye haue the perfect copie of it and will let any friend ye haue see it They are so far off in the letter from giuing the least suspition that they doubt of our Church and ministrie as that they pronounce it your heathenish opinion whereby ye denie vs to be Christians What preachers sent vnto ye I know not but that they refrayned to haue conference with ye perceiuing vpon the sight of your little paper as yee say that they could not defend their estate doe yee indeede think still that they tooke it to be the roaring of a Lyon could they not discerne thinke ye betwéene rudere and rugire Your multitudes and armies of wordes being but vayne â—anglings I will passe by and come directly to the substance of the matter And because our ministrie is ordayned by Bishops which is by one part of their gouernement your third and fourth accusation shall bee handled ioyntly as it were vnder one In page 104. Ye wonder as ye say that in this florishing estate of our Church which ouerfloweth with so great learning aboundeth with so many writers that not one of them should vndertake to proue the ministry of their Church directly by the rules of Gods word in their office entrance administration and maintenance These may very well be some of those swelling words of banitie which Saint Peter speaketh of for who if he know not before the vaine insolencie of Master Barrow and his fellow reading this wonder would not iudge them to bee men very deepely read Haue they not read ouer thinke ye all the learned writers of this age wondring that there is not one among them all that hath vndertaken to proue our ministrie directly by the rules of Gods word Is it not pitty that there be no moe learned writers that these men might search them also to haue this poynt handled If you haue now done wondring Master Barrow giue vs leaue a little to wonder The Papists denying that the churches which haue reiected popery haue any ministry and requiring proofe thereof many learned writers both of other Churches and of our owne nation haue vndertaken this matter and haue so directly proued our ministry by the rules of Gods word as that the Papists haue no cause to glorie Now there be two things here which we may wonder at the one how it should be possible that such swelling insolency could be found in the hearts of men grosely ignorant as that hauing read almost nothing and vnderstanding lesse by sundry degrees yet openly vaunt as if they had read all and could finde no such matter The other how men of so contrarie disposition should vse the very same weapon against the Church for this is one weapon of the Papists and now in your hands Ye haue no ministrie of Christ If the reader shal here thinke that I grate too hard vpon Master Barrow who directeth his spéech but against the ministry of our Church the matter is farre otherwise as I will make it appeare for first he denieth the ministry of all Churches in expresse words affirming that there is no ministry in all Europe nor in all these knowne parts of the world Secondly we are to note that although the reformed Churches doo differ sundry of them each from others in the manner of the calling and ordination of ministers yet the defence which the learned writers doo make is generally for the ministry of all those Churches as well for the ministry of the Church of England as of others which haue forsaken Antichrist and preach the Gospell Therefore Master Barrow read all the learned writers which haue stood to maintaine against the Papists that Master Luther Master Caluine Master Bucer Martyre the rest were ministers of Christ and seeing ye will needs fight against God and his truth try your strength and see how ye can gratefie the Church of Rome in ouerthrowing that which all her learnedest patrons are not able to shake more then they be able to shake or remoue a mountaine The ministry of our Church is not you say the ministry of the Gospell or the ministry of Christ but the ministry of Antichrist comming in the life and power of the beast Your reason is that we are the children of the Bishops the Bishops are the creatures of the Pope Against this I did alleage that the popish Bishops haue their consecration and power from the Pope they sweare obedience vnto him to maintaine his dignity religion lawes and ceremonies And also with him doo exercise a power ouer the faith and conscience of men But the Bishops of the Church of England haue not their ordination consecration or power from the Pope but from our Church which hath renounced Antichrist The Bishops of England acknowledge no subiection to the Pope but by anoath haue renounced his vsurped power and tyranny The Bishops of England are not ordayned to vphold and maintaine the religion or lawes of Antichrist but quite contrary they promise and professe to aduaunce the Gospell of Iesus Christ c. They vsurpe not a Lordship ouer the faith and conscience of men Let vs see now what ye bring against this It helpeth not our Bishops ye say any thing that they haue broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope renounced his yoake euen his vsurped power and tyrannie seeing they vsurpe and retaine if not the same yet as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope exercising their authoritie and commaundements contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and of their prince page 113. If it be thus our case is hard but Master Barrow remember the old Prouerb a lier needeth to haue a good memorie for in page 181. and 182 you haue quite forgotten what ye had set downe here for there yee doo affirme that the Bishops which died for the Gospell were godly blessed Martyres of whose happie and blessed estate ye doo not doubt Your reason is for that they were not conuinced but did exercise that power ignorantly I pray ye tell me Master Barrowe could they bee godly and had but broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope Could they be godly men exercising as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope Yea could they bee true thristians exercising their commaundementes and power contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and man Or could ignorance excuse them in these matters Then tell vs why the Pope might not be a good Christian also before he was conuinced Which way dooth the whéele turne now Master Barrow Ye can neuer be able to bring both ends together in these yee must either condemne those Martyrs or else make the
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry