presses all men to endeavour after perfection in every grace and vertue and especially to be much in works of mercy and charity but yet she does not fright people with stories of Purgatory to bring in their wealth to the Church nor teach them that there is any great perfection in leaving their honest callings to run into a Monastery bringing their riches along with them thither She requires constant temperance and sobriety and sometimes imposes fasting and abstinence but then whether men eat a little flesh or fish oyl or butter she thinks it not a matter of the least moment but leaves all men to their own choice and prudence In a word she does not with the Pharisee teach for doctrines the commands of men but diligently inculcates the express commandments of Almighty God delivered to us in his holy Word And tho' she would not have us so foolish and proud as to think of meriting Heaven by our own good works yet she teaches that upon our patient continuance in well doing we shall through the mercies of God and the merits of Christ certainly obtain eternal life but upon no others terms does she encourage any man to hope for it And thus you see how our Church teaches us to take that same safe and narrow but sweet and pleasant way to salvation which is proposed to us in the Gospel L. I am fully perswaded she does so God grant me grace ever to walk in this holy way and then I shall not doubt of an happy end Pray proceed to his last argument T. I shall so and this it is That Church is not to be heard which has no solid reason for her keeping the Sabbath-day on the day she does keep it but no Church or Congregation of Sectaries has this and therefore none of them ought to be heard What say you to this L. I say that we of the Church of England whom he unjustly calls Sectaries have good reason for our keeping the Sabbath on that day we do keep it even as good reason as the Church of Rome it self has T. He goes on to prove the contrary thus No Church of Sectaries has Scripture for keeping the Sabbath-day on Sunday and no longer on Saturday as God commanded it and yet they reject tradition upon which ground the Roman Church keeps the Sunday in lieu of Saturday and therefore they have no solid reason for what they do c. L. I answer we have Scripture for keeping one day in seven viz. the fourth Commandment And we read that after our Saviours Resurrection the Apostles and Disciples commonly assembled together on the first day of the week which is called the Lords-day Revel 1. 10. And then we have tradition to assure us that this day was observed by the Christian Church ever since which tradition we may plead for our practice I trow as well as the Church of Rome T. Yes certainly we may for though we reject a great many ill things which they would thrust upon us for old traditions many of them being meer novelties of their own devising yet we do by no means reject such traditions as have sufficient evidence of their having been generally received by all Christian Churches from the very times of the Apostles down to our days and of this nature do learned men generally affirm the observation of the Lords-day to be And what you alledg from Scripture may very well serve to recommend to us so ancient and general a practice To all this besides the great equity and reasonableness of the thing in it self you may add the authority of those whom God hath set over us in Church and State all which being put together leaving the nice disputes that have been about this matter is a sufficient ground for our observation of the first day of the week as a Christian Sabbath a day of rest from our common employments devoted to the more solemn worship and service of God both in publick and private As solid reason therefore do we give for our practice herein as the Church of Rome it self can do or any other Church in the world And thus we have done with his five mighty arguments in which upon a little examination there appears nothing of strength or solidity He next musters up some weighty objections as he reckons them against those whom he calls Sectaries which he says ought to make them very much doubt whether they be secure in the way they are in And here according to his usual vain way of bragging he makes this large offer which yet he will never make good that all Priests Jesuits and Catholicks over all the world will turn to their way if they can but get from their Ministers a clear and satisfactory resolution of the following doubts L. It was cunningly done of him to call for a satisfactory resolution since though it be as clear as the light at noon-day yet they may still pretend that it is not satisfactory T. They may so though I question not but it will appear such to all that are impartial and judicious These doubts I shall propose to you in order and hear what you your self can say for the resolving of them L. I shall give in the best answers I am able and where I am at a loss shall still desire your help CHAP. II. A resolution of some doubts and questions proposed to Protestants T. FIrst he demands whether it can be clearly shewn that our Ministers were sent by Almighty God to preach and to reform the Roman Catholick Church or whether they are not some of the false Prophets who say The Lord saith when the Lord hath not sent them Ezek. 13. 6. L. There seems no great difficulty in resolving this doubt since our Ministers had lawful Ordination and thereby had authority to preach the Word of God And by the light of this word they discovered many errors and abuses in the Roman Church wherewith we were foully polluted and by Gods blessing and the assistance of lawful authority they were very instrumental in reforming us from the same Now whilst they proved their Doctrine by this Word of God they are not to be compared to those false Prophets who taught the people lyes and vanity as we have it Ezek. 13. 7 8. T. Your answer is sufficient and very clear For since our first Reformers did not publish a new Religion but rather restored the old by removing those corrupt additions that had been made to it they did not need any extraordinary commission from Heaven such as Moses had from God when he delivered the Law and as the Apostles had from Jesus Christ when they were first sent to preach the Gospel But it was sufficient that they were duly qualified by Gods Spirit for the work of the Ministry and were lawfully called to it by those who had authority in the Church to ordain them to that Office Such as these are truly said to be sent of God and are therefore
Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead and Indulgences p. 65 CHAP. VII Of Transubstantiation p. 75 CHAP. VIII Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. p. 102 CHAP. IX Of having Prayers in an unknown Tongue p. 105 CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of Sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them p. 109 CHAP. XI Of Invocation of Saints p. 119 CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images p. 129 CHAP. XIII Of Praying by Beads p. 142 CHAP. XIV Of Distinction of Meats p. 148 CHAP. XV. Of withholding the Scriptures from the Common-People p. 152 PART II. CHAP. I. COntaining an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants p. 167 CHAP. II. A Resolution of some Doubts and Questions proposed to Protestants 190 CHAP. III. An Answer to some Propositions said to be unanswerable by Protestants p. 200 CHAP. IV. An Answer to a pretended Demonstration That the Roman Church is the True Catholick Church p. 225 CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole p. 239 A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries PART I. A DIALOGUE BETWIXT A Teacher and a Learner CHAP. I. Concerning the true Church and the marks of it and first of its Unity Learner SIR I live in a place where there are many of those who call themselves Roman Catholicks and though I care not much for disputing with them for I seldom find any thing comes of it but anger and ill words yet I cannot always avoid it For some of them are my near Relations and they sometimes put Books into my hands and sometimes bring their Priest along with them to convince me and are still earnestly urging me to change my Religion and to forsake the Church of England telling me plainly that no Salvation is to be had out of the Church of Rome Teacher That I know is their common Doctrine but it is so very unreasonable and so horridly uncharitable that this alone were enough to keep a man from becoming a Papist since if he thorowly embrace their principles he must condemn all but those of their own way And believe it they had need to consider well how they can hope for mercy themselves who pass so severe a sentence upon others But thanks be to God whatever they talk of St. Peters Keys they are not hereafter to be our Judges nor are salvation and damnation at their disposing That God who will judg both us and them according to his own Gospel will one day justifie and acquit thousands whom they have condemned And therefore never be daunted by their insolent language and heavy censures The very same you may sometimes hear from Quakers and others of the vilest Sects For still the less reason the more wrath and considence that by bold and threatning talk they may fright people into their way when they want good Arguments to perswade them L. I believe it is so yet I 'le confess to you I am sometimes a little puzled with some of their subtle discourses and therefore I would desire you to furnish me with plain answers to the chief of those arguments which they commonly insist on These I think I can pretty well remember having heard them so often but to help my memory I have brought with me a little Book wherein they are contained and from thence shall propose them T. I shall readily give you my assistance herein Let me hear then how do they use to assault you L. Those I have met with do commonly begin with telling me as I find it here also in some of the first pages of this their book That there is but one Lâ—rd and one Faith one Religion and one Church wherein a man can be saved as there was but one Ark of Noah wherein he and his family were preserved T. We easily grant that there is one true Religion even that which Christ hath revealed and is therefore called the Christian Religion and there is one Catholick Church viz. the whole body of Christian people who embrace this Religion But there are many particular Churches which hold this same Faith as of old the Church of Ierusalem of Antioch c. so now of England of Scotland c. What then can they infer hence to their purpose L. That as Turks and Jews cannot be saved so no more can Hereticks T. It still beseems us to be more careful for the saving of our own souls than hasty in condemning of others Wherefore let us leave the condition of such who never heard the Gospel nor had any opportunity of hearing it to the wise and just Judg of all the Earth who will do right to all As for Hereticks they are such as deny some essential part of the Christian Faith and therefore properly speaking are not Christians But what 's all this to us L. They say that we of the Church of England are Hereticks out of the Catholick Church and therefore cannot be saved T. Say it they commonly do but are never able to prove it since we believe the whole Religion of our blessed Saviour contained in the holy Scriptures We receive the ancient Creeds of the Church wherein is contained the summ of this Religion How then are we Hereticks L. Because we are not of the Roman Church which is the congregation of those who own the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar and the visible Head of his Church upon earth which congregation they say is the Catholick Church and the only true way to salvation and they who are not of this communion are Hereticks and Sectaries T. This is the current Popish Doctrine but had it been the opinion of the Primitive Church in the Apostles days or soon after surely they would have given some such a definition as this of the Catholick Church or at least have call'd it the Roman Catholick Church as Papists now do but it s neither so called in the Creed nor this Article so explained by any Christian Writer in those days or long after L. Who then are to be reckoned as members of the Catholick Church T. Even all good Christians through the whole world that do sincerely believe and obey the Gospel of our blessed Saviour These are the true members of his Church and all who profess to do so are the outward visible members of this Catholick Church And in this sense we acknowledg with your Author that Christ hath always had a visible Church on Earth and will be with it to the end of the world nor shâ—â—â— the Gates of Hell be able to prevail against it Nor do we say as he charges us that the whole Church has been lost or put out but particular Churches in this place or that as at Ierusalem at Rome or any otherwhere may fall into great decay and at length into utter ruin Yet still Christ will have a Church upon earth still there will be men professing Christianity to whom
the Iewish Church by the solemn rite of Circumcision and since our Saviour hath no where given the least intimation that this priviledg should be taken from them I can see no reason why the children of Christian Parents may not be solemnly consecrated to God by Baptism and so admitted members of the Christian Church And to omit many other Texts which speak in favour of infants this without any wresting of the words may be fairly drawn from that commission given to the Apostles and their Successors Mat. 28. 19. Go ye therefore and teach or disciple all Nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost They were to make Disciples of whole Nations which surely comprehends both Parents and Children First the Parents were to be instructed in the Christian Faith and upon their profession of it to be baptized And then they themselves being devoted to God and entred into Covenant with him since Parents have power over their children to dispose of them for their good and to lay engagements on them for that end surely it was lawful for them to devote their children also to God and to enter them into Covenant with him by Baptism thereby laying a strict obligation upon them when they come to years of discretion to perform their part of this holy Covenant if ever they hope for any benefit by it the Parents also being bound to acquaint their children with their duty so soon as they are capable of learning it Thus when any one from among the heathens became a proselyte to the Iews when he himself was circumcised so were his children also Yea learned men tell us that it was also the custom to wash these proselytes in pure water and that very probably our Saviour was pleased to accommodate himself to this same usage of theirs in his instituting of Baptism for the more solemn admission of members into his Church Now as an excellent Writer argues suppose that our Blessed Saviour instead of the word Baptizing should have used that of circumcising and have said Go teach all Nations circumcising them in the name c. would not all men have been apt to think that the same priviledg which the Iews had of admitting their children into Covenant by Circumcision that Christian Parents also should have the like why then may not the same be reasonably argued from the words though Baptism be here named and not Circumcision Very probable it is that the Apostles thus understood it and that they practised accordingly when we read of their Baptizing such and such persons and their housholds as Act. 16. 15 33. amongst whom there might be some children for any thing that can be shewn to the contrary And certain we are that very early in the Christian Church insants were admitted to Baptism and thence hath it continued to this day to be the general custom of all Churches throughout the world And pray take good notice that though our Church allows nothing to be imposed upon our belief or practice as necessary to salvation but what is contain'd in Gods holy Word yet she hath great regard to antiquity to the customs of the truly Catholick Church and the current Doctrine of the Fathers and requires Ministers to have due respect thereto in their Exposition of Scripture And therefore without any contradiction to her self may very well admit the observation of such customs that having so much ground from Scripture are recommended also by the early and general practice of the Christian Church This I say she may very well do but is by no means thereby obliged to receive all the traditions and customs of the Roman Church for many of which nothing can be truly pleaded either from Scripture or antiquity but very much against them from both L. This is very plain and satisfactory Pray let us have his next question T. It is this Can you make it appear to me how your Sectaries can with reason and sufficient ground condemn all the Catholicks that were so many ages before Luther and Calvin for being no better than heathens and convince me that by adhering to you I shall be more secure of my salvation than if I joyn my self to them that have been held time out of mind in most parts of the world for the men that have the true and only saving Religion What answer give you to this L. First I know no body that does thus condemn all Catholicks before Luther and Calvin For as to those Christians in the first ages of the Church who truly deserve the name of Catholicks whether of the Roman Church or any other we are so far from condemning that we admire and applaud them we approve of their Doctrine contain'd in the ancient Creeds and do imbrace and profess it we honour their memory and endeavour to imitate their example But as those of the Roman Church in latter ages whom he means I suppose by his Catholicks though we do not say they are as bad as heathens yet we do truly say that they have very much corrupted Christian Religion by false Doctrines and Superstitious usages and therefore we think it a much safer way to salvation to adhere to the ancient certain truths of Christianity every where received and to worship God in that pure and holy manner which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles both taught and used than to embrace those additions made by the Roman Church which are no parts of true and saving Religion nor have ever been so accounted by the generality of Christians And though our ancestors might have some excuse from the state of this Church in their days yet we their posterity should be utterly inexcusable if now that our Church has so justly reformed her self from Popish corruptions we should break off from her communion and go over to the Church of Rome that hates to be reformed This were to add the guilt of Schism to that of Superstition T. Your answer is very clear and full and may well enough serve for the solution of his fifth Query which is to the same purpose with the former viz. Can you make evident at least that in your little flock or in Luther and Calvin their guides more holiness and virtue was to be found than in the Catholicks And that it is this little flock of yours not the Catholicks that go the narrow way that leads to life L. To this may easily be answered as you have formerly instructed me that though Luther and Calvin were learned and good men who in their own times and places did much service for the Reformation of Religion yet they never had authority in our Church nor do we own them as our guides The blessed Iesus is the Author of our Religion and after him the holy Apostles were the teachers of it being no other than Christianity it self and consequently the true way to eternal happiness even that narrow way of truth and holiness which the whole flock of Christ
from it This also is the practice of the Romish Church whilst she requires men to profess their belief of that which by God's Word they know to be most false and to practise that which from the same word they are assured is unlawful and abominable By all this it appears then that the Church of Rome whilst she cries out against all others as Schismaticks is her self most Schismatical in that she sets up her self above all other Churches and will hold Communion with none but those who enslave themselves to her draws away people from their own Pastours and imposes unlawful terms of Communion upon all her Members Now by this means she hath departed from the way of the Ancient Catholick Church which never allow'd any such Usurpation but strictly forbade it in the Canons of the most Ancient most general and orthodox Councils By this means she broke off from the Eastern Church which would not submit to this her Usurpation And by this means she made it necessary for the Western Churches to withdraw from her that they might not be defiled with her Errors and Corruptions and to reform themselves so far as they had been defiled and most unjust it is in her to refuse Communion with them on account of their Reformation Yea by this means lastly she hath in some sort departed from her self I mean from that integrity and purity of Faith and Worship which once was in the Church of Rome and did for some Ages continue in it But by degrees she did more and more degenerate till at length she became so polluted that it was altogether unlawful and unsafe to retain Communion with her lest partaking in her Sins we should also partake in the Plagues that were due to them The gradual Apostasie of their Church is so evident that few of their own most famous Historians have the impudence to deny it Even Baronius himself as well as many others makes heavy complaints of that corrupt state it was faln into about Nine hundred or a thousand years after our Saviour when he confesses that impudent Strumpets had got such an interest in Rome that Church preferments were disposed of at their pleasure yea the Popedom it self So that he says our Lord seem'd to be a sleep in the Ship which was in danger of being overwhelmed with waves with much more to the same purpose And what sort of creatures were then made Popes appears full plain by the History of their Lives written by their own Followers Many of them such Monsters of men for all manner of villany and lewdness that they seem to exceed the very worst of the Heathen Emperors And can we think it impossible or unlikely for these men to fall into error and superstition who wallowed in all vice and wickedness Can their Infallibility be secured when their virtue is lost Will the Spirit of Truth whom the wicked World cannot receive dwell in such impure defiled minds No certainly this Blessed Spirit is only promised to those who love our Saviour and keep his Commandments Some of these Popes are accused not only of the most bruitish sensuality but of Blasphemy Infidelity and even Atheism it self And what a Clergy was the Church like to be filled with when the very Heads of it were thus corrupt And alas what a sad influence was this like to have on the minds and manners of the people How like would their state be to that of the Jewish Church Isa 1. 4 5 6. The head sick and the heart faint from the soal of the foot even to the head no soundness in it but wounds and bruises and putrifying sores Or as in Ier. 5. last The Prophets prophesy falsly the Priests bear rule by their means and the people love to have it so No wonder then if whilst the Watchmen slept the enemy came and sowed Tares Plainly it 's no wonder in such times of ignorance and profaneness that manifold errors and abuses both in Doctrine and Worship should creep into the Church especially such as made for the interest and reputation of the Clergy who having little of sanctity and true worth left they take other methods to recommend themselves to the people and having an ignorant credulous people to deal with their chief business was to gratify their fond superstitious humour and to advance themselves in their esteem And most of those things in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome do plainly serve to this purpose either to promote the wealth and honour of the Clergy or to please the senses and amuse the fancies of a carnal superstitious people to keep them in ignorance and indulge them in their sins rather than to bring them to sound knowledge and true repentance and godliness as the instances oft before given do plainly shew You see then into what a corrupt state the Church of Rome hath degenerated in these latter Ages and therefore how great Reason there was to Reform our Church from Popish corruptions and how little reason you have to desert this well-reformed Church whereof by God's Mercy you are a Member to run over to Rome which abhors all thoughts of a Reformation Nay you would have no reason to betake your self thither though that Church was at this day as pure and orthodox as when it was first planted by the Apostles L. So little reason do I see for my going over to the Romish Church that had I till now lived in communion with it I durst not for a world continue any longer therein And by what you have said I plainly find that this Evident Demonstration my Author so boasts of is a piece of as meer sophistry as any other of his Pregnant Arguments and Unanswerable Propositions of which he has mustered up a great number to little purpose And whilst there is no more strength in his Reasons I give little need to his censures how bitter soever For he uses much what the same harsh and uncharitable language in the conclusion of his Book that he did at the beginning That no Salvation is to be had out of the Church of Rome that if we will not have her for our Mother we must not expect to have God for our Father quoting St. Austin for it T. But without all Reason whilst he applies to their particular Church what is said of the Catholick Church of Christ. But nothing more common in their mouths than the Roman Catholick Church as if there were no true Christians or Catholicks in the World but those of their own party which how unreasonable as well as uncharitable it is we have before seen L. Certainly it is both in a very high degree whilst he dare boldly doom all men to damnation except his Roman Catholicks whom he looks upon as the only favourites of God and heirs of Heaven For he says they cannot be in the least danger of missing the inheritance of God's Children in the next Life if they have lived as they believed T. What
both Heathens Jews and all Infidels ought to joyn themselves L. Since then the Catholick Church signifies the whole society of Christian people where ever scattered over the face of the earth it hence appears that they who assert the Church of Rome to be this Catholick Church do thereby declare that there are no true Christians in the world but the Papists as we use to call them which seems to me very strange Doctrine But yet may not a particular Church be in some sense stiled Catholick T. Yes pâ—operly enough as it is a part of the Catholick Church holding the same faith with it and not schismatically dividing from it And thus of old the Church of Rome might be stiled Catholick and so might the Church of Ephesus of Antioch or any other place to distinguish them from Hereticks and Schismaticks that made factions and parties in their several Churches and separated from their own lawful Bishops and Pastors L. Are not those Christian Churches which are commonly callâ—d Reformed Churches parts of the Catholick Church T. Yes they are the best and soundest parts of it L. But why are they called Protestant and Reformed T. Not to trouble you with the first particular occasion of the name Protestant they are now generally stiled so because they protest against the errors and corruptions of the Roman Church and have Reformed themselves from the same according to the primitive pattern laid down in holy Scripture So that when you hear tell of the Protestant Religion or Reformed Religion you are not to understand thereby any new Religion distinct from Christianity but only the old Christian Religion in its native simplicity and purity separate from all Popish additions Nor do we say as I have told you that the Church was lost and now lately found out but this we say that it was greatly corrupted especially in these Western parts of the world over which the Bishops of Rome had by ill arts usurped an authority From which Usurpation our Rulers most justly and regularly delivered themselves and afterwards with great care and consideration reformed our Church from those corruptions which were chiefly introduced and supported by that authority L. But they of that Church use to tell us and so does my Author here that all who are not of their communion are Sectaries to whom by no means do agree the marks of the true Church which yet they say are all of them evidently to be found in theirs T. Nothing more common than for adversaries to give one another very ill names and that shall serve for half a confutation amongst ignorant people But names alter not the nature of things And as zealously as they of Rome do affect the name of Catholicks I doubt not but upon search they will be found as notorious Sectaries as any in Christendom whilst many of those whom they brand with that infamous title will appear to be true Catholick Christians if there now be or ever were any such in the world And in order to the proof of this pray let me hear what are those marks of the true Church L. They are said to be chiefly four that it is One Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church and this say they cannot be said of any Protestant Church and therefore not of our Church of England which is by them reckoned among Sectaries T. By these marks let us be tried Only take notice that no one particular Church can be stiled the Catholick Church as if a part was the whole But I say the Church of England which we are now chiefly concern'd to vindicate is a true and sound part of this One Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church and all the marks of a true Church do much more clearly and fully agree to it than to the Church of Rome But let me hear what they object to the contrary L. First they say it is not One that is it is not united because there are so many divisions in it Some will be Protestants some Presbyterians others Independents Anabaptists Quakers c. Nor can they be one whilst they acknowledg not one Head to determine controversies Whilst on the other hand the Papists pretend that they have this one Head one Faith the same Sacraments and so are all of one Religion and therefore having so much unity are to be own'd by this mark for the true Church c. T. In answer to this consider 1 That it cannot with any pretence of reason or Scripture be made the mark of a true Church that there shall be no divisions in it For were there not some to be found in the best and purest Churches immediately planted by the Apostles themselves As particularly in the Church of Corinth for which they are severely reproved 1 Cor. 1. 10 11 c. 2 Much less doth it become those of the Church of Rome to accuse others of divisions who have more and greater amongst themselves than can be found I believe in any other Church in Christendom They talk of one Head but sometimes they have had two or three Popes at once and that for several years together They are divided in points fundamental to their own Church as whether the Pope be above a General Council or the Council above the Pope Nor are they any more agreed where the Infallibility of which they boast so much is seated than about the Supremacy whether it be in the Pope or in a General Council or in both together Yea some say 't is neither in one or the other nor in both united as considered apart from the rest but in the whole body of the faithful as by them Religion is convey'd from one generation to another And are they not much better for an Infallible Judg of controversies whilst they are not yet agreed who he is and where this Infallibility is to be found In a multitude of other points are they divided as learned Writers of our Church have shewn at large and with great probability have some asserted that they hardly agree universally amongst themselves in any Doctrines but those wherein they agree with us 3 But again were they never so well united amongst themselves yet is this but the agreement of a Sect with it self and is far from proving them to be therefore the Catholick Church or any sound part of it As if suppose all the Quâ—kers were perfectly agreed together in all opinions and imagin their number was as great as the Papists are they therefore to be reckoned the Catholick Church because forsooth they are One amongst themselves Surely no since by their errors and their schism they divide themselves from all other Christians Thus whilst Papists are united in owning the Pope to be Christs Vicar on earth and the supreme visible Head over the whole Christian Church they do hereby only make a sect or faction let their number be never so great And by this means as well as many other ill opinions and practices which are imposed on the
members of their Church they do separate themselves from all other Christians in the world who disown this Universal Headship of the Pope with the rest of their errors L. But they boast much of the Union of their Church because say they go where you will you shall find the same Worship the same Mass and this frequented in all places where their Church is owned by the members of it T. Still this is but an Union amongst themselves such I say as any party may have Quakers for instance may go to Quakers Meetings where ever they travel and yet still remain a Schismatical party And though I lay no great stress upon it yet formerly even in the Church of Rome however it is now with them they have had much variety in their publick Offices according to the different Usages of different places But still I say be they never so perfectly agreed in their own way of worship as well as in Doctrine there is nothing in this to prove them the One Catholick Church Nay it does not so much as prove them to be One with it as a sound part thereof except their Doctrine and Worship be such as agrees with that of the Catholick Church in all ages For any party I have told you may agree amongst themselves even whilst they are schismatically divided from others L. But they say our Church of England is not thus united because many separate from her Prayers and Sacraments T. And what is there no Unity therefore amongst the members of our Church because there are some who through peevishness weakness or any other cause separate from it Does not the main body of the people of this Kingdom through Gods mercy joyn in Religious communion and can freely resort to any Parish Church where they happen to be If some that live in the Nation will not thus joyn is that an argument against the union of those that do In some Popish Countries are there not many thousands who separate from the Church of Rome And do they take that for a good reason to prove them not to be united who joyn with it I trow not but yet it may do much to prove there is little true union amongst them to consider by what means they are held together viz. partly by force and violence at least in many places and partly by keeping the people in ignorance And is it not a fine kind of union think you to have men chain'd together in Iron fetters and kept in a dark Dungeon where they are not able to stir a foot from each other had they never so much mind And had the people in Italy and Spain but more light and more liberty you would quickly see what vast numbers would depart from their communion there as they have done in other places But ignorance is the bond of their union as well as the mother of their Devotion L. Yet is there nothing more common with them than to cry up the Unity of their Church and to exclaim against the divisions which they say are in ours T. They exclaim against them whilst more ways than one they endeavour to promote them They use also their utmost arts to aggravate and enhance them and make them be thought much greater than they are whilst they cunningly endeavour to lessen and conceal those amongst themselves which yet I reckon to be far greater than even those betwixt our Church and the generality of such as dissent from it And sometimes these their differences have been managed with as much heat and violence and have produced fighting and bloodshed as you will find largely related in the most learned Dr. Stillingfleet's Discourse on that subject But besides this certainly the Papists of all people have little reason to cry out against Schismaticks and Sectaries since they themselves will be found to be as great Schismaticks as any at this day amongst us and as dangerous too if we may judg of them by their principles For besides that the whole Popish Church may justly be accounted Schismatical in dividing it self from the rest of Christendom of which more hereafter those of them who live amongst us do wholly separate from our Church and pass a much more heavy doom upon us than I think most of our other Sectaries do For these do generally acknowledg the Church of England to be a true Church and grant her Doctrine to be sound and good and profess to hold communion with us in faith and love whilst they withdraw from us on account of some Modes and Ceremonies in Divine Worship Thus it is with many of them but now the Papists do plainly declare against our Church and Ministers that we have no true Faith nor Sacraments nor Christian virtue or piety but are cursed Hereticks in the most miserable state of damnation And all this chiefly because we submit not to the usurpation of a foreign power that of the Pope which at least in Spirituals they prefer before the power of our own Governours whether in Church or State So that in obedience to the Bishop of Rome who hath no more to do in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem they make no scruple of disobeying the King and Bishops and all the Laws of the Land at least I say in all matters that relate to Religion And whilst the Pope himself is Judg in the case what may he not hook in under that pretence And therefore may the Papists amongst us justly be reckoned as Schismaticks whilst they refuse communion with that Christian Church where they live which is a sound part of Christs Catholick Church and requires nothing unlawful of its members And very dangerous they are because they prefer a foreign Usurper before all the power of our own Church Especially if you also consider the current Doctrine of their Church that this same Usurper the Bishop of Rome has power to depose Heretical Kings as they account ours and to absolve their subjects from their Allegiance and dispose of their Kingdoms to others And this most intollerable tyranny over Princes have sundry Popes exercised when they have had power in their hands and have more than once attempted it in these Kingdoms Yea to this day many of the rigid and stricter sort of Papists refuse to take the Oath of Allegiance wherein this extravagant power of the Pope is denied Judg then whether I had not reason to say that men retaining these principles and on that account rejecting our communion are themselves such notorious and dangerous Schismaticks as have little reason to accuse others of schisms and divisions L. But though we own not the Pope to be an Infallible Iudg of Controversies have not we sufficient means for union in our Church T. Yes we have so whilst we acknowledg the Holy Scriptures to be the Infallible Rule of Faith in which all things necessary to salvation are plainly revealed and do also grant that the Governours of our Church have power to compose all differences
in Religion amongst our selves by proposing Articles of peace suppressing disputes about obscure and unnecessary matters and by determining of things indifferent in the worship of God according to the general rules of Scripture which principles being heartily embraced and honestly practised will procure as much peace and union in every Church as can be expected in this state of imperfection And by this means thanks be to God there is more true Christian unity to be found in our Church than amongst Papists themselves notwithstanding their Infallible Judg Pope or Council or they know not well who And what appearance of union there is amongst them is to be ascribed rather to the peoples ignorance than to the Popes knowledg yea to the Inquisition much rather than to his Infallibility L. I am well satisfied in this matter But before I proceed to the next mark pray tell me what is that unity which is required in a particular Church to make it lawful for a man to hold communion with it T. Plainly it is this that it be in union with the Catholick Church by holding the same faith which it has always held and using the same worship in all things substantial which it has always used And thus doth the Church of England whilst it owns the Holy Scripture as the Rule of Faith and receives the ancient Creeds wherein this Faith is briefly comprized which Scripture and Creeds have been generally received by the Catholick Church in former ages as well as this And in our Church is established the solemn Worship of the true God in the name of Jesus Christ and here the holy Sacraments are administred according to this rule of Holy Scripture and after the pattern of the Catholick Church in all ages from which the Church of Rome is most grossly degenerated as you may anon be more fully informed L. But does not the Church of Rome receive the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Creeds that we have and worship the true God in the name of Iesus Christ T. Yes they do so and thereby they do plainly approve of and confirm what we hold But then they have made additions of their own to this Faith and have brought many corruptions into this worship and thereby have occasion'd one of the greatest schisms that ever happened in the Church and are themselves the Schismaticks because they make unlawful terms of communion and exclude those who comply not with these terms So far as they are One with the Catholick Church we are One with them So far as they retain that Faith and Worship which has ever been approved of in the Church since the days of Christ and his Apostles we are ready to joyn in communion with them but the errors and corruptions which in latter times have been added and imposed these we utterly reject In these we must dissent from them that it may appear we are one with the ancient Catholick Church which never own'd many of those things which they now impose and we renounce as I shall after shew But let us proceed if you please to the other marks CHAP. II. Of the second mark of the true Church viz. Holiness L. THE next mark of the true Church is that it 's Holy which they say agrees to their Church not to ours Their Doctrine they pretend is holy not ours in their Church are multitudes of holy persons to be found whole Orders of them but out of it they say there is no true holiness no holy people nay nor can be T. It is a matter to be sadly lamented by all good men that among Christians of what profession or Church soever there is no more true piety and holiness to be found and that generally they are more zealous for promoting their own party and private opinions than holiness and righteousness without which we cannot be saved let the Church we are of be never so true and our opinions never so sound and orthodox But in this respect I do verily think there is no Church in the world more guilty than the Church of Rome nor any that less deserves to be stiled an Holy Church For proof of this I intend not to insist on that general loosness and impiety which abounds in Popish Countries and no where perhaps more than in Italy and Rome it self the Seat of his Holiness as they stile the Pope and yet a very sink of all sensuality and profaneness But that which I would have you chiefly to consider is this that several of those Doctrines of their Church which are properly stiled Popish and in which they differ from us do manifestly tend to the prejudice and hindrance of an holy life and do rather serve for an encouragement to sin and wickedness As for instance whilst they abuse the people with idle stories of Purgatory where they may make satisfaction for their sins and where they shall sometimes find much ease and at last be delivered out by the prayers that are said for them by Priests after their death to whom good store of money must be left for that end How does this tend to harden men in their sins and to prevent their timely reformation whilst the hope of a Purgatory takes off the fear of Hell Thus also they teach that Attrition that is being sorry for their sins for fear of punishment will procure their pardon if they make confession and are absolved by a Priest And at most easie rates do they grant Absolutions and Indulgences which must needs make men much more careless of their lives more bold to venture upon wickedness for which they have a pardon so ready at hand But besides these and other hurtful opinions we may plainly discern that in the several branches of Religion their gross corruptions have done much to destroy all true piety and goodness For instance instead of a serious spiritual affectionate worship of God which might help to conform the souls of men to the holiness of that God whom they worship they have invented a world of useless ridiculous Ceremonies which turn it into a kind of bodily exercise that little profits the soul. They have publick prayers in an unknown Tongue where it s enough for the people to be present though they scarce understand a word and what benefit can this afford to their minds Here also contrary to Gods express command they have brought in the worship of Images the Invocation of Saints and Angels especially of the Blessed Virgin as also the adoration of the Host that is of the consecrated Bread in their Mass all which are horrid impieties And even a great part of their private Devotions consists in saying over their Pater Nosters and Ave Maries so many times by rote of which they keep count by a sett of Beads And is this a due worship of God in spirit and truth with affection and reverence such as our Blessed Saviour enjoyns and as the very nature of God requires from all reasonable creatures Moreover as
there is little of true devotion in their worship so they have done much by other false Doctrines of theirs to destroy righteousness truth peace and charity from amongst men to pass by their Doctrines of Equivocation and mental reservation many of great note in their Church have taught that no faith is to be kept with Hereticks and it s well known they have sometimes put it in practice They exempt their Clergy from obedience to the Civil Magistrate and teach that it is in the power of the Pope to Excommunicate and Depose Heretical Princes and to absolve their subjects from Allegiance to them who after this by their principles may lawfully rise up and rebel against them Yea in some of their Councils they have decreed that the Rulers who will not root out Hereticks as they account all that are not of their Church shall be deprived of their Dominions And when they have had power in their hands they have exercised the most barbarous cruelty upon those they call Hereticks that ever was heard of in the world both in our own and other Nations especially where their bloody Inquisition is allow'd They burn their bodies and censure their souls to Hell and this is Popish charity This is the Church that boasts so much of her holiness and good works But should I go about to tell you what is the Divinity of many of their famous Casuists especially of the Jesuits as it 's laid open by some of their own Church and is to be seen in their Books and in the present Popes condemnation of some of their grossest Doctrines if this I say should be laid open you would be amazed to find how there is scarce any sin but with one distinction and evasion or other you might be allow'd to commit it scarce any duty but you might have a colour for the neglect of it Amazed one may well be to find men calling themselves Christians yea Doctors of the Church to allow and defend such practices as a sober heathen would abhor Yet this is the Church that is to be known by her Holiness above all other Churches L. Many of these things which you object against their Church I find my Author afterwards to vindicate but in the mean time he says we Protestants have no holiness in our Church that the first Reformers were very wicked men and so are their followers and a great many ill things he says of those he calls Sectaries as guilty of Rebellion Murders Adultery Sacriledg c. T. As to those who have been really guilty of these or the like crimes let them bear all the blame which they most justly deserve As to our own Church it s no way concerned in this charge no but let the shame light upon that Church which first taught and practised Treason and Rebellion Plots and Conspiracies murdering of Kings and massacring of their Subjects under pretence of Religion And if any that are called Protestants have been guilty of such Villanies they may in respect of these practices and the principles whence they flow justly be stiled the Jesuits Disciples whatever abhorrence they may pretend for other points of Popery L. But he says we take away all fear of God and obedience to his commands and all good Doctrine with more to that purpose T. A plain sign it is that they themselves have no fear of God before their eyes whilst they are guilty of such malicious slanders and reproaches Some good pretence they might have for these censures if we took away the Scriptures from the people wherein all good Doctrine and Gods holy commandments are contain'd and instead of these should put into their hands lying Legends devised by idle Monks full of feigned miracles and ridiculous stories which tend to nourish superstition and error But on the contrary it s well known that we not only allow to common people the use of holy Scripture but do most earnestly exhort them to be diligent and constant in the reading and meditation of it How then dare they say that we take away all good Doctrine And is not this the chief design of the Sermons so plentifully preached amongst us to explain these holy Scriptures to shew the people thence their duty both to God and man and to enforce the same upon them To this same end are also written many excellent Books by the Divines of our Church Yea some done by the more devout Writers of their Church which do chiefly aim at the promoting of good life have been translated into our language are commonly read and well esteemed among us such as Thomas à Kempis Drexelius Sales and others Nothing is more frequently prest upon us than that above all things we ought to live in imitation of our Blessed Saviour and his holy Apostles in the exercise of true devotion and piety to God of righteousness truth and mercy to one another and of purity and sobriety in our own persons which we look upon as the very summ of Religion and the great design of the Gospel according to Tit. 2. 11 12. With us is taught the great obligation that lies upon all men whether Clergy or Laity to be obedient to the King as supreme and to all that are in authority under him That we ought to love our neighbours as our selves keeping faith and truth with all men whether good or bad Orthodox or Heretical avoiding all equivocation and mental reservation With us is taught the excellency and necessity of charity both in doing good to all that need our assistance and in forgiving those who have done evil to us if ever we hope for mercy and forgiveness from God And as many publick good works have been done in this Kingdom since the Reformation as can be shewn within the same compass of years in times of Popery though upon better principles In our Church we are taught to flie from whoredom drunkenness and all riotous sensual courses and that not as slight and venial faults but as most dangerous and deadly vices And for the more effectual promoting of holiness our Religious worship is framed according to the rules of holy Scripture directed to God only in the name of his Son Jesus not to Angels or Saints Our prayers are in a known tongue that the people may be affected and edified and as the Apostle requires may be able on good grounds to say Amen We have the Holy Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords-Supper administred according to our Saviours own Institution and these still urged as most solemn obligations to all piety and holiness of living without which the outward performance will stand us in no stead We declare that no pardon for sin can be obtain'd but on condition of sincere repentance and that no repentance is sincere but what produces reformation and amendment of life if opportunity be afforded So that our Doctrine you see is the Doctrine of the Gospel and the precepts of it are daily inculcated on the people Our
Prayers and Sacraments are framed and ordered according to the rules of it and all most evidently tend to the producing of that holiness which the Gospel most strictly requires being a Doctrine according to godliness as the Apostle stiles it And through Gods blessing on his own Ordinances and the endeavours of his faithful Ministers there are great numbers amongst us who do live truly religious Christian holy lives as many I am apt to think as are to be found in any Christian Church throughout the world of the same largeness with ours As to the wickedness of others which we justly lament as good men in all ages have sadly lamented the same this is the fault of particular persons and not to be charged upon the Church which owns no Doctrines that promote wickedness much less does she require of her members the embracing and professing of any such false and mischievous Doctrines nor does she impose upon them any thing which God has forbidden nor restrain them from any duty which he has commanded This therefore may sufficiently shew the Holiness of our Church to be such as that we may lawfully hold communion with it yea and are bound so to do since there is nothing sinful required of us in order thereto but here we may be as pious and holy as in any Church whatever and I think have as great helps and encouragements thereto L. My Author grants that there are some in our Church who appear modest and charitable and so there are among the Heathens but he says its all but outward appearance since we have no true Religion as he pretends and therefore can have no true virtue T. How utterly groundless and unjust is this charge whilst as hath been said before we do most firmly believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God and from this our belief in him and his holy Gospel do our works proceed and out of true love to God and to our brother Judg then whether they who have that faith in Christ which works by love are to be reckoned amongst Heathens and Infidels Or rather are not they destitute both of Christian charity and common modesty and ingenuity who talk at this absurd and most malicious rate L. Indeed I see not how they can excuse themselves herein but yet I hear them boasting often what numbers of Saints and Martyrs they have had in their Church both in former and latter ages and will allow no Saints in any other Church but theirs T. As to Saints of latter ages they keep up the names and tell fine stories of some of whom its much doubted whether they ever had a being in the world But which is far worse there are some whom they cry up for Saints and Martyrs who died as Rebels and Traytors against their Prince in a blind furious zeal for their great Master the Pope Such was their Thomas à Becket formerly and Garnet lately with others of the like stamp But as to the true Saints of former ages though some of them might live in the same places in which they of the Romish Church now do yet are they not to be accounted members of that Church according to its present constitution since they were utter strangers to those falshoods and superstitions which are now establish'd amongst them only they embraced that same pure plain Christian Religion which is at this day profest with us and are therefore rather to be reckoned of our Church than theirs L. This is plain enough but what say you to the great numbers of Religious people still amongst them viz. those of their several Orders in their Monasteries and Nunneries that live single lives being retired from the world that they may wholly give up themselves to Gods service for they talk much of these when they boast of the holiness of their Church T. For my part I hope there are some amongst them who deserve the name of Religious and where there is one truly so I wish there were an hundred Yea I would to God that both with them and all other Churches every man who is called a Christian may walk worthy of his holy profession I have no desire to make any party of men worse than indeed they are nor any delight in representing how bad they be or are commonly censured at least And therefore I shall say nothing of all that filthiness and lewdness which in former times their Monks and Nuns have been severely accused of by some of their own Church for I care not for raking in such a channel Nor shall I take notice how much they are degenerated from the first institution of a Monastick life in which men were wont to be very diligent and industrious in some honest and useful employment But yet that you may not be abused by fair shows and specious pretences I would not have you think that men and women are ever the more holy and religious for leaving their families and callings and shutting up themselves in Cloisters there to repeat over so many Creeds and Pater-Nosters in a day For there is no encouragement given in the Gospel for our entring into such a lazy retired course of life Nor is it at all like to the life of our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles neither do they hereby bring that honour to God nor that good to the world which by a more free and active life they might do So that I doubt not but that in thousands of pious well ordered families there is more true devotion yea more purity and chastity than in most of these their Religious Houses as they call them But beside all this there is one thing I would have you seriously to consider that though I grant there may be and I hope are some Papists truly religious whether in their Cloisters or out of them yet it is not as they are Papists but as they are Christians of the same faith with us who are reformed from their errors So that whatever holiness is amongst them it makes nothing for the honour of Popery that is of those Doctrines wherein they differ from us but of Christianity in its purity and simplicity as it is profest amongst us To speak yet plainer if need be any of them that are truly good become so through the grace of God by their firm and effectual belief of the Christian Religion viz. that Jesus Christ is the Son of God that he died for our sins and rose again for our justification that he will come to judge the quick and the dead and will sentence the wicked to everlasting punishment and receive the righteous to life eternal Such as these are the great truths of our Religion which being heartily believed and seriously considered do by Gods blessing thoroughly change mens hearts and lives and make them truly pious and good But no body becomes so by his believing that the Bishop of Rome is Christs Vicar and has power over all the Princes on earth that their Church is
infallible and the Mistress of all other Churches that there is a Purgatory with the rest of those Doctrines which they embrace and we reject Nay these opinions with their consequences rather tend to make men much worse than otherwise they would have been Some of them make them more loose and careless in the leading of their lives and some make them most cruel and uncharitable to such as differ from them yea render them many times disobedient to their rulers and furious disturbers of the peace by Plots and Treasons and Rebellions for the advancing of their cause True Christianity puts men upon no such courses but these are the natural effects of Popery as has often been verified by sad experience L. I understand you well and am fully perswaded that we in our Church do embrace all those Christian Doctrines that tend to the promoting of good life and do retain none that are an hindrance to it But what say you to their objections against Calvin and Luther who as my Author says were very wicked men and strange stories he tells of them out of Bolsec and other Writers of their Church T. To this I answer that it sufficiently appears how bad their cause is which must be maintain'd by the most odious lies and forgeries For there are no Books in the world less to be credited than those which their Monks and Priests have written in praise of those they have Canonized for Saints and in dispraise of such as they have damned for Hereticks making the former somewhat more than Angels and the latter worse than Devils But as to Calvin and Luther some of the more ingenuous even of their own Church have given a fairer character of them than their lying Bolsec and such Authors And had they but been as zealous for Popery as they were against it no doubt but they had past amongst them for great Saints with all their faults But in the mean time were they really as bad as they falsely accuse them to be yet are we little or nothing concerned herein since they were not the Reformers of our Church Nor yet if they had is it the goodness of this or that person which we are obliged to defend but the truth of our Doctrine and the lawfulness and necessity of our Reformation Thus they make a great out-cry against Henry the Eighth what a bad man he was and what ill designs he had in throwing off the Popes Supremacy which was the most he did toward the Reformation but let his designs be what they would the thing it self was justifiable and good VVhat if a bad Emperor upon carnal designs should have supprest Heathenism and promoted Christianity as Constantine himself was accused by some is this any dishonour to the Christian Religion But little cause have Papists of all men to talk of ill instruments whilst they may remember from what a Trayterous Murderer and Usurper the Pope first received the title of Universal Bishop for which he had been long quarrelling with the Bishop of Constantinople And however they slander Calvin and Luther we might with much more reason and truth object what kind of creatures multitudes of their Popes have been whom they own as Heads of their Church even such monsters of men for all manner of impiety filthiness and cruelty as the world hath scarce ever heard of the like And this we have from those of their own Church who have written their Lives and their greatest Champions such as Bellarmine and Baronius cannot deny it L. But it s further objected against Calvin and Luther and the first Reformers that they never wrought miracles to shew they had a commission from God T. Our first Reformers never pretended to bring in any new Religion only they cast out Popish Innovations which had corrupted and defaced it and for this they needed no extraordinary commission from heaven nor any miracles to warrant the same For they preached no other but the same old Religion which was taught by Christ and his Apostles and was abundantly confirmed by the miracles which they wrought long ago And with us the Reformation was begun and carried on in a just and regular manner by our Rulers in Church and State who had full authority to make the same even as the Kings and High-Priests of old had to reform any abuses and corruptions which at any time were crept into the Iewish Church And as these needed no new commission from Heaven no new miracles to authorize them to rectifie disorders and reform the Church according to the rules of Moses's Law no more did our Reformers need them for the removing of those errors and superstitions which had by degrees been brought in contrary to our Saviours Gospel L. I see no reason indeed why miracles should be expected from them who only cast out new inventions and keep fast to the old Christian Religion which hath already been confirmed by so many and great miracles But yet my Author says that in their Church they have had miracles wrought in all ages such as curing the blind and deaf raising the dead and casting out of Devils which he accounts to make mightily for the honour of their Saints and of the Church to which they belong T. In the Primitive times indeed such miracles were wrought for proving of the Christian Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and all that he taught most certainly true and this Doctrine so confirmed is the Religion which we at this day do openly profess in our Church But then I utterly deny that ever such miracles were wrought to prove the truth of Popish Doctrins properly so called as of Transubstantiation Pargatory Invocation of Saints c. for these were never taught by Christ or his Apostles and therefore could not receive confirmation from the miracles of their working As to any that are pretended to be done in the Church of Rome for the attesting of these they are meer cheats and forgeries or lying wonders agreeable to the nature of those false Doctrines which they are designed to confirm And though your Author talks of healing the sick raising the dead c. I can hear of no such thing done by any of them amongst us whatever they may pretend to in Popish Countries where it s an easie matter for cunning Priests to impose upon credulous people But were indeed any such miracles wrought for the proof of Popish Doctrines one would think they should be done amongst those they call Hereticks who stand in need of such arguments for their conviction rather than amongst their own people who need them not Great Stories they often tell of their casting out of Devils and for this knack are their Priests mightily magnified by their deluded followers and prefer'd before the Ministers of our Church who pretend to no such matter But that this is a gross cheat seems plain enough from hence that what their Priests pretend to in this kind for all that ever I could
Romish Church But for the Papist the happy man that has had the good luck to hit into this true Church they have so many tricks and quirks to secure him in his life at his death and after it that let his faults be what they will it s very strange if he miss of Heaven at least after he has taken Purgatory in his way if he was very poor for rich men may easily escape that too or get soon out of it if they 'l follow the Priests directions Such fine devices they have to give men a lift to Heaven without putting them to the trouble of walking in that narrow way of serious holiness which alone leads thither So that I cannot but say and without any prejudice or partiality I speak it notwithstanding all that noise and talk of holiness in the Church of Rome nothing but Holy Mother Church Holy Father the Pope Holy Altars Holy Images Holy Water Holy Crosses Beads Agnus Dei's Reliques and a thousand holy trinkets more yet I think there is as little true holiness of life and conversation to be found amongst them as in any Church of the world Yea we shall often find that when those of that way are told of the holy Lives of many Protestants or are themselves exhorted to strictness and piety of life as that wherein true Religion chiefly consists they will be ready presently to make a puff at it as if this was of no value in comparison of being of the true Church of the infallible Catholick Church as they fondly call their own Sect as if being in a good Church would secure a bad man when we are so plainly taught that without holiness no man shall see God let him be of what Church he will Wherefore to conclude this remember that since in the Church of England the holy Gospel is most purely taught and the holy Sacraments duly administred according to our Saviours own institution and the members of it are neither required to profess any falshood or practise any evil in order to their communion with it but on the contrary are most strictly enjoyned to be holy in all their conversation and do here enjoy all manner of helps and advantages thereto therefore I say this is such an Holy Church as that you may and ought to hold communion with it Proceed we now to the following Marks of the true Church CHAP. III. Of the third mark of the true Church that it's Catholick L. THE next mark he lays down of the true Church is that its Catholick And here they make great boasting and triumphing for they say none else call themselves Catholicks but they nor as they pretend have any reason so to do since they tell of vast numbers belonging to their Church in all places of the world far and near and how they convert Heathens whilst Protestants they say are but a little handful here and there in corners amongst a multitude of Catholicks T. As to what they call themselves it matters little for be sure they 'l give themselves good words Neither is it true that none but they lay claim to that name for we of this Church do esteem our selves true Catholick Christians as professing the ancient Catholick faith of Christ and so do frequently stile both our selves and our Doctrine and with good reason as I doubt not to demonstrate As to their great numbers compared to other Christians suppose what they alledge were true as it is most false yet is this no sufficient argument of their being true Catholicks for that 's to be judged by the truth of their Doctrines and not by the number of Professors For if we should at this rate go to the Poll and judg of truth by most votes then might the Mahometans carry it from Christians And heretofore the number of the Arrians was said to be greater than of the Orthodox But that 's to be accounted a true part of the Catholick Church which professes the Catholick faith even the same Christian Religion which all good Christians in all ages former as well as latter and of all Nations have ever constantly profest And by this rule you will find that the Church of England is a most true and sound part of the Catholick Church as professing this same Christian faith contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Here you may remember what I have before told you that it is most vain and unreasonable for any one particular Church to stile her self the whole Catholick Church as if there were no Christians in the world but themselves And yet in this sense doth the Church of Rome stile her self Catholick the absurdity of which I have before shewed And there needs nothing more to manifest it than this single consideration that there are thousands and millions of Christians in several parts of the world who neither now do nor ever did own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome which is the great fundamental article of their faith to pass by all others at present and yet all these whilst they embrace the whole Christian Doctrine taught in the holy Scriptures are to be lookt on as true Catholick Christians though they do not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar upon earth invested with Supremacy over all Christian Churches for this is a Doctrine which our Saviour never taught his Disciples Now without owning this false Doctrine a man cannot be of the Church of Rome according to the Decrees of their Popes and Councils and yet without this I say a man may receive the whole Christian Religion as it was delivered by Christ and his Apostles and therefore he may be a true Catholick Christian though he be not of the Romish Church nor yields subjection to it L. This seems to me very plain and clear T. But it will appear yet more plain if you consider what is a most certain truth that there can be no manner of good evidence given that the Church of Christ for some hundred years after our blessed Saviours time did ever receive this Doctrine of the Popes Supremacy or his Infallibility Nay our learned men assert that there is not so much as any one Christian Writer for at least three hundred years after that time some say four or five that did ever so much as teach any such strange Doctrine as this How then I beseech you can the owning of it now be necessary to make a man a Catholick when the whole Catholick Church for some ages after its first Plantation was a meer stranger to it L. I think there is no appearance of reason for it T. To this add that the whole Greek which was much larger than the Romish before it was over-run by the Turks ever disown'd these same new opinions of the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility with many others of the same stamp neither do they generally embrace them to this day though sometimes the Romanists have used all manner of arts and devices
to draw them into a submission and therefore especially do they account the Greeks to be Hereticks and Schismaticks though I know they lay some other things to their charge But besides the Greek Church there are multitudes of other Christians in several parts of the world who submit not to the Bishop of Rome So that this boast of their vast numbers in comparison of others is as false as it is weak For according to the computation of many learned men if all the Christians in the world were divided into four parts those who belong to the Romish Church where ever they are scattered would not make one quarter of them With what face then can they pretend that they alone are the whole Catholick Church As if there were no Christians in the world but themselves all the rest being Hereticks or Infidels or what they please to call them L. But they say these Churches are not Protestants T. Whether that name be proper to them or not it 's enough that they joyn with us in the most substantial points against the Papists As to the name of Protestants I before told you we do commonly understand by it those who have reformed themselves from the errors of the Romish Church and have cast off her authority which before she unjustly usurped over them And in this sense there are a great many large and flourishing Churches of them in these Western parts of the world besides numerous Plantations in the East and West-Indies especially in the latter where many of the Native Heathens have been converted by them But as to the Greeks and those other Churches who never were enslaved to the Bishop of Rome though the name of Protestant may not so fitly belong to them yet do they agree with us in utterly disowning the Supremacy of that Bishop which is the very fundamental Doctrine of the Romish Church by which especially they are distinguished from those of all other communions As to other points wherein the Romanists and the Reformed differ in some of them the Greeks agree with us in others with them But that which is most material to my purpose is this that all these Churches do hold the same essential Articles of Christian Doctrine with us They receive the same holy Scriptures and the same ancient Creeds in which our faith is contain'd but then they reject many of those additions which in latter times have been made by pretended General Councils of the Roman Church Particularly I say they deny the Supremacy and Infallibility of that Church the chief of their new Doctrines By this therefore judg whose faith is most Catholick or Universal whilst many of their fundamental Articles as they esteem them are rejected by all Christian Churches besides themselves who are not a fourth part of Christendom whereas all the Articles of our Faith are embraced by all these Churches yea even by the Church of Rome it self for as I have often said the sum of our Faith and Religion is in the Apostles Creed and this hath been received by the whole Catholick Church in all times and places and the Roman Church also retains it though she has added new Articles to it But if she has any good pretence to the title of being part of the Catholick Church it must be upon account of her receiving and professing this same Christian Faith which we together with the whole Church of Christ do hold and not on account of those new Articles she has added which are so generally disown'd both by us and all other Christians in the world except their own party and which were utterly unknown to the Catholick Church for many ages after our Saviour Judge then I say whose faith is most Catholick theirs or ours L. I confess there seems little difficulty in the case but yet I have heard them oft object that ours is for the most part a Negative Religion made up of Negative Articles as that the Pope is not Head of the Church that there is no Purgatory no Transubstantiation c. Now they say we find no such Negative Doctrines in the Catholick Church of old and therefore we do herein differ from it T. To this the answer is exceeding easie that we hereby only reject those corrupt additions which the Romish Church hath made to the ancient Catholick Faith And their obtruding these falshoods on the world gave occasion for such Negative Articles as those you mention which we now look upon as very necessary to shew that we keep close to the ancient Rule of Faith delivered by Christ and his Apostles which Faith we keep entire and do express it most positively and plainly as we have it in the Creed But the Novelties which the Romish Church hath added to this we do utterly deny and reject As for instance when the Bishops of that Church many hundred years after our Saviour make a new claim of an Universal Jurisdiction over all Christian Churches we think it most just and necessary to disown all such his Supremacy as being no where taught in the Gospel nor mention'd in the Creed nor own'd by the Primitive Church The same we declare concerning their other Doctrines of Purgatory and Transubstantiation that we believe them nor So we also teach that there ought to be no worship of Images no Invocation of Saints or Angels c. and all this for the same reason because no where injoyn'd by our Saviour or his Apostles nor establish'd in any of the four first General Councils which we readily embrace but rather the contrary to these is either expressly taught or plainly enough insinuated And if the Church of Rome shall still go on to coin new Articles we shall as occasion is offered still be as ready to reject them declaring them to be no part of our Faith And by this means we do best manifest our conformity to the Catholick Church in all ages contenting our selves with that Faith which she hath ever profest and transmitted to posterity And here it is a most ridiculous thing for them to bid us shew where the Church of old held such Negative Articles as we now do since these were not like to be heard of before the errors that occasion'd them were introduced As when the Judaizing Christians taught the necessity of keeping Moses Law then the Apostles denied it and establish'd the contrary Now suppose this error had not been broach'd till some hundred years after had it not been sufficient for the Christians then to say that the Apostles never taught it who revealed the whole Counsel of God and therefore certainly it could be no part of their faith And so say we of the Doctrines before mention'd the Popes Supremacy the worship of the Blessed Virgin and the like if these had been so necessary as Papists hold we should hear of them in our Saviours Sermons or in some of the Epistles written by the Apostles to several Churches or sure we should meet with them in the writings
Bishop to succeed him and so hath the succession continued to this day and therefore sure they must needs be an Apostolical Church T. In answer to this I shall wave the dispute whether indeed St. Peter was ever Bishop of Rome or no and shall pass by all that may be said of the frequent Schisms which have happen'd amongst them by their having sometimes two or three Popes at once and that for many years together nor shall I tell of the fine tricks and politick intrigues of the Cardinals at the Election of a Pope nor of those vile arts which are frequently used by such as aspire to that dignity all which tends very much to abate their honour and shews how unlike they are to the Apostles whose Successors they boast themselves to be But waving these things let me only desire you to consider how little force there is in this argument to prove their Church to be now Apostolical that once there was an Apostle Bishop of it except there still continue with them the same truth of Doctrine and purity of worship which the Apostles did at first teach and establish For let us grant that St. Peter and St. Paul with other holy men planted a Church at Rome yet is it not possible that here as well as at Ephesus might afterward arise men who should teach perverse things as we find it exprest Act. 20. 30. and thereby corrupt the Doctrine of the Gospel Was it not thus in many other Churches And may it not be so at Rome too yea most certainly we know it is so For though we grant that Church to have remain'd for a considerable time pure and uncorrupted yet for many ages by-past to this very day there have been such Doctrines and practices currently received and established in that Church as the Apostles never taught to them nor to any others And with respect to these I say they deserve not the title of an Apostolical Church meerly because an Apostle at first planted it and presided over it The Papists themselves will not now allow this title to any of the Greek Churches which were planted by the Apostles because they look upon them as erroneous and schismatical and certainly they themselves have as little reason to challenge it as any of their neighbours being at least as grosly degenerated as any though they may have more prosperity and greater numbers of people adhering to them It is not then so much the sitting in the same Chair as teaching the same Doctrines with the Apostles that makes a Bishop to be a true Successor of them Wherefore those Churches which were planted by holy men after the Apostles were dead and gone if they receive the same Doctrine and retain the same worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did these may most justly be accounted Apostolical Churches sound members of the One Holy Catholick Apostolick Church of Christ. L. I think there is great reason so to account them but it seems very unreasonable that any one Church should stile it self the Apostolick Church so as to exclude all others from that title especially so unsound a Church as that of Rome which is at this day so very unlike to what it was in the times of the Apostles T. It is indeed every whit as unreasonable as to arrogate to themselves alone the name of Catholick which we discoursed of before Nay let us suppose that the Bishops of Rome to this very day followed the example of the Apostles preached the same Doctrine led the same good lives and used the same holy worship and discipline so that their Church indeed deserved to be own'd as Apostolical yet what in reason could be infer'd from hence more than this viz. that the people in their own Diocess should be subject to them and that all other sister Churches ought to give them due respect and maintain such communion with them as those at a distance are capable of But it does not in the least follow that the Bishop of Rome is Christs Vicar upon Earth and their Church the only Catholick and Apostolick Church so that none must have this title but those who inslave themselves to the Pope L. You have said enough to convince me how very absurd it is for the Church of Rome to stile her self the Catholick Apostolick Church as if there were no other Christians in the world but Papists yet pray tell me may not the Church of Rome be reckoned a part of the Catholick Church T. At the best it is but a small part as I have before told you and also a very unsound part Yea I will not doubt to add that take the Church of Rome even in the largest sense as comprehending all those that submit to the Pope as Head of the whole Church under Christ they may justly be reckoned a Schismatical party dividing themselves from the rest of the Catholick Church setting up a false Head and Governour and appointing unlawful terms of communion And though in this respect the Masters and leaders of the faction are in the greatest guilt yet the people who are seduced are also more or less guilty according to the capacity they are in of geting better information But yet notwithstanding this schism they are in and notwithstanding the many errors and abuses that are amongst them whilst they profess the Christian Religion and own their Baptism they may be allow'd the name of Christians such as belong to the visible Church of Christ. And how uncharitable soever they are to us I hope there are many good Christians amongst them who do heartily believe the Gospel and live in obedience to it according to their knowledg and who on that account may be stiled true members of the Catholick Church as all honest true hearted Christians are notwithstanding those errors and faults they may be guilty of which do not utterly violate their Baptismal Covenant nor destroy that faith and holiness by which we are united to Christ the Head and so are living members of his body the Church But still I say this title belongs not to them as they are Papists embracing the peculiar tenents of their own Church but as they are Christians holding the essential Articles of the Christian Faith together with our own and all other Churches For as to Popery it is really a disease a corruption of the Christian Religion Yet as a diseased man may have his vitals so sound that even the Plague or Leprosie may not kill him so may there be some amongst the Papists in whom the great and common truths of Religion may be so deeply implanted and so faithfully retained and improved that the disease of Popery may not prove mortal Whilst they hold the foundation Jesus Christ and his Gospel though the hay and stubble which they build upon it shall be burnt yet may they through the mercy of God in Christ be saved so as by fire that is with great difficulty 1 Cor. 3. 11 12 c. And
their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
may the King of France do the same in his as if the Pope should provoke him probably he might and so may all others if they please By which means at length the Bishop of Rome would be confined to his own Diocess and his Spiritual power be shut up in much the same limits with his Temporal But alas what an utter ruin would this be to the Papal dignity and honour How would their treasures be drain'd their glory sullied and their power abated yea even reduced to nothing No wonder therefore if Bellarmine in the Preface to his Books of the Romish Bishop stiles this Doctrine of his Supremacy the very summ or chief point of Christianity Had he said of Popery it had been true enough For 't is plain they look upon this as one of the most weighty articles of their faith Let this be denied our conformity to their Church in all other things will signifie little or nothing As it appears in Henry the Eighths case for though he still retain'd the main Body of Popery yet because he rejected this power of the Pope he was reckoned and treated as an Heretick and Apostate Whereas let this be but own'd and you shall be dispensed with in many other things As our Historians tell us it was offered to Queen Elizabeth that we should have our Service in English Communion in both kinds c. provided she would submit to the Popes authority and own his Supremacy L. This is I perceive so useful an opinion that they have great reason to be zealous in asserting it but it doth so apparently serve their own ends that were it for nothing else I should mightily suspect the truth of it but by the very slender proof they bring either from Scripture or Reason I am sufficiently assured that it is notoriously false T. Good ground you have so to be yet pray consider what mighty stress they lay upon this idle opinion whilst they confine the Catholick Church to those who embrace it and Excommunicate all others as Hereticks and Schismaticks Yea such homage they pay to this their great Master that even in things of an indifferent nature they will rather yield obedience to his commands than to those of their own Prince And that 's plain from this instance amongst others that for a considerable time in Queen Elizabeths days the Papists came to our Churches but after the Pope had sent order to the contrary they generally desisted And I have heard some eminent Papists alledging the Popes Prohibition as the chief reason of their not taking the Oath of Allegiance So certainly true it is that a Papist acting according to the rules of his own Church can be no further a good Subject than the Pope will give him leave Nor has any Doctrine been more destructive of the rights of Princes and the duty of subjects than this of the Popes Supremacy In pursuance of this or for the promoting it has the peace of the world in these latter ages been greatly disturbed Kings and Kingdoms Excommunicated and endeavoured to be destroy'd Yea for the disowning of this according to their mercyless tenents must we poor Protestants be made utterly miserable both in this life and that to come Here we must be condemned to fire and faggot and hereafter to everlasting burnings even because we will not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar on Earth L. For the sake of this I am more apt to suspect the rest of their Popish Doctrines But though the Pope be not Christs Vicar yet is it not too severe to stile him Antichrist for so it seems many of our Writers do at which my Author is very angry and says it is a calumny and a lye and most intollerable stupidity to assert it T. Certainly not greater than to assert his Supremacy But pray what reason does he give for this his anger and his confidence L. He says that Antichrist shall be a Jew a particular man at the end of the world whereas the Popes be successively many of divers Nations and many ages ago T. Whilst he gives you only his bare word for all this there would need no more confutation than a bare denial Nor shall I give you or my self the trouble to search into the Revelation or any other obscure places of Scripture thence to prove the Pope to be Antichrist Only you may call to mind the saying of Pope Gregory even now quoted That he who should take on him the title of Universal Bishop is the forerunner of Antichrist And so far as Pope Gregory's Infallibility may be allow'd they may serve to prove his Successors to be an Antichristian generation of men But without going about positively to define what is meant by Antichrist in the New Testament that which I would chiefly recommend to your serious consideration in this matter is this That though the Bishops of Rome were at first very pious and good men and so generally continued for some ages yet as they grew in wealth they did by degrees strangely degenerate from the virtue and piety of their Predecessors till at length they with the Grandees of the Clergy who are the Governing part of the Popish faction have most apparently set up and pursued a design exactly contrary to that of our blessed Saviour which design of theirs may therefore well enough be stiled Antichristian and so may the abettors of it who have by the most vile and unchristian methods carried on the same To make this manifest in a few words consider that our blessed Saviour hath expresly told us that his Kingdom is not of this world does not consist in riches honours and worldly dignity but his whole business was to promote the glory of God and the salvation of mens souls by bringing us to the love and practice of piety and humility righteousness and mercy purity and sobriety and all true virtue and goodness But now on the contrary he who stiles himself Christs Vicar plainly enough declares that his Kingdom is of this world For what is it they seek after and so earnestly contend for but worldly greatness and power pomp and glory to make all men pay homage and obedience to them And under this pretence of being Vicar of Christ and Successor of St. Peter have the Popes for many ages exalted themselves above all that is called God I mean above all Civil power above Kings and Emperours who are indeed Gods Vicegerents on earth They have set their feet on the necks of Princes and kickt off their Crowns at their pleasure deposed and destroy'd Kings absolved their Subjects from the Allegiance due to them and disposed of their Kingdoms to others so far as they had power For their own secular interests they have often stir'd up Wars amongst Christian Princes yea themselves have maintain'd and prosecuted the same They have excited the people to Civil Wars and Seditions and sometimes even drawn the Son to rebel against his own Father They have set
their not discerning the Lords body vers 29. And to receive these Holy Elements without reverence thankfulness and true devotion was to be guilty of dishonouring the Body and Blood of Christ which were here represented and exhibited to Believers But all this while we have no reason hence to fancy that the natural substance of Christ's Body and Blood are present in the Sacrament Had the Apostle thought of any such thing surely he would have exprest himself in another manner and have said somewhat to explain so Mysterious a Doctrine And had he and his Brethren taught the same as the Church of Rome now does surely the unbelieving Iews or Gentiles would have poured forth their Objections against it whereas we hear not a word of that nature neither in the Apostles Days or the next Ages after In all the Apologies that the first Christian Writers set forth in defence of our Religion we find nothing said in vindication of any such Opinion as this whilst they give large Answers to many other Objections for which there was nothing like so good a pretence Nor do we read of any controversy amongst Christians themselves about this matter for many Ages whereas in latter times since this Opinion was first broached there have been many Volumes written for and against it L. But they pretend that this was the Ancient Opinion of the Fathers and first Christians T. Pretend it they do but as in other points of Controversy betwixt them and us so here it is a very vain and false pretence For we read nothing of it in the old Creeds or the Canons of General Councils or in the genuine works of any Father for many hundred years after our Saviour L. Yet they alledge that the Fathers commonly stile the Holy Elements the Body and Blood of Christ and will frequently quote places to that purpose T. No doubt but they may easily do that though without any advantage to their Cause since its plain enough in what sense those expressions are to be understood from other places of the same Fathers For they themselves do sometimes tell us that Christ's Words of eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood are to be taken Spiritually that in the Communion there is a commemoration of his Death and a representation of his Body and Blood yea sometimes they expresly call the Bread and Wine the Figures thereof Now these and such like sayings cannot possibly be reconciled with the Popish opinion of Transubstantiation Therefore when they speak of Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament we may most reasonably understand them in the very same sense that I have told you our Church frequently uses the like expressions So do our Writers very commonly in their Books of devotion and in practical discourses on the Communion speak at the same rate whilst they intend nothing more but that these Holy Elements are made Christ's Body and Blood Mystically and Spiritually But how far this opinion of Transubstantiation is from being an Ancient Doctrine of the Christian Church hath been made sufficiently evident amongst many others by the Learned Bishop Cozens who in his History of it gives us an account about what time it was first publickly taught what opposition was then made to it by sundry Learned men of that Age and how long it was before it could be established by any Council even amongst Papists themselves or could obtain to be the general avowed Doctrine of their Church Nay to this very day their chief Writers are strangely divided in the accounts they give of it setting their Wits upon the rack to explain and defend it some this way and some that having so very little help from Holy Scripture in the Case as some of them are so ingenuous as to acknowledg L. Methinks its strange that they should with so much eagerness maintain and with so much violence impose a Doctrine which to me seems impossible to be understood or firmly believed T. Strange it is and very unreasonable but yet some account may be given of it for beside that natural pride which inclines men to defend the opinion which they have once espoused especially a Church which boasts of Infallibility besides this I say we may consider how mightily the admitting of this opinion makes for the Honour of the Priest who can thus with four words speaking work one of the most wonderful Miracles that ever was known in the World indeed such a one as can neither be seen felt nor understood But the people who can be perswaded to believe it must needs have a mighty veneration for the Priest that works it and be almost ready to make a god of him who can so easily make a god for them by turning the Bread into the very person of our Saviour his Divinity and Humanity whom therefore they worship and adore as God though after that they eat him L. This may seem indeed to make for the Honour of the Priest that he can work such wonders but surely it makes little for the honour either of Priest or people to be guilty of such false and absurd opinions and of such corrupt practices which are the natural consequence of them For are they not guilty of Idolatry in Worshipping the Bread as God though I know they say there is no Bread there after Consecration pray let me know your judgement because I find my Author endeavouring to vindicate their Church from this heavy censure T. I do not see how they can possibly excuse themselves from this charge if the Bread still remains Bread in its natural substance as we may most certainly conclude it does from what hath been alledged both from Scripture Reason and our Senses Wherefore whilst they worship that for God which is not God giving to the creature what is due alone to the Creator they may justly be reckoned guilty of Idolatry L. But will it not serve to excuse them that they worship that which they take to be God and therefore do design and direct their Worship to God and not to the Bread which they believe not to be there after Consecration though they see it before them T. What allowances it may please our good God to make for the ignorance and mistakes of honest well-meaning men I still say it doth not beseem us to determine But as to the thing it self for my own part I cannot see how this pretence will any more excuse a Papist from Idolatry than it would excuse an Heathen for his Worship of the Sun that he did verily believe the Sun to be God or that God did in some extraordinary manner dwell in the Sun the substance of it being turned into God whilst only the accidents of Light and Heat and the like do still remain Nay one would think the Heathen in some respect more excusable of the two since the Sun looks much liker a God than does a Wafer or bit of Bread But ' there is no great need of disputing against them in this
Case since several Writers of their own Church do freely grant that if this Doctrine of Transubstantiation be not true then they may justly be charged with as gross Idolatry as ever was practised in the World And most certainly this Doctrine is not true if any regard may be had to God's Holy Word to clear Reason to our own Senses or to the most Ancient Christian Writers and what they would have more I cannot tell L. I am perfectly satisfied with your Discourse on this point and shall therefore proceed to some other particular T. It 's high time you should and I shall take care to be briefer in the rest only I was willing to insist the longer on this because they reckon it so weighty and important a Doctrine of their Church for the denial of which they look upon us as damnable Hereticks and when they have had power in their hands have treated us accordingly even with all that bloody rage and cruelty which the Idolatrous Heathens of old used toward the Primitive Christians Hereby also you may be convinced how utterly unlawful it is to hold Communion with the Church of Rome which is guilty of Idolatry in this her worship of the Host and imposes the same upon all that joyn with her and therefore what great Reason there was for the Reformation at the first and for our refusal to this day to pollute our Souls by a compliance with such abominations which for ought I can see is as utterly unlawful even though a Man lived in the Dominions of a Popish Prince as it was for the three Children to fall down and worship the Golden Image at Nebuchadnezzar's command And as chearfully might any good Christian venture upon the fiercest flames in this Cause as they did in theirs resting assured if not of a deliverance yet of the Crown and Glory of Martyrs which is a Thousand times better And to conclude when by this instance you are so plainly convinced what a gross and palpable errour is expresly taught and stifly maintained by the Roman Church and as a judgment upon them they seem fallen into it for a discovery of their falshood you may thence easily inferr what opinion is to be had of the Infallibility of that Church and so will be better prepared for the receiving a discovery of any other of their Errors as it shall happen to be made to you To which purpose let us now proceed CHAP. VIII Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. L. THE next point mentioned in my Author is that of the Mass which he says little about but that it is the unbloody Sacrifice which Christ offered at his last Supper and which he commanded his Apostles to offer for the commemoration of his death T. This belongs to what we have just now been so largely discoursing of Only you are to take notice that the common Doctrine among them is that at the Mass as they call it or at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper there is a true Sacrifice offered which is propitiatory both for the quick and the dead viz. such as are in Purgatory that is tends to procure the pardon of their Sins and freedom from punishment And this they call an unbloody Sacrifice to distinguish it from that which our Blessed Saviour offered on the Cross when he sned his Blood for us Though how it can be unbloody whilst the natural Substance of Blood is there according to their principles is not easie to understand nor how that can be fitly called a commemoration of his death which they say is a Sacrifice of Christ who is there corporally present But in the mean time this notion of a Sacrifice if taken strictly and properly is a meer fiction not having the least countenance from Holy Scripture where we read only that Christ offered up himself a Sacrifice for us on the Cross but not a word of his doing it the night before when he instituted the Holy Communion nor of his being dayly offered up by the Priest to make atonement for sins Nay we expresly read Heb. 9. 26 27 28. that he only once offered up himself and is now gone to appear in the presence of God for us but there 's nothing said of his being offered up to God by others We do indeed freely grant that in this Holy Sacrament we make a solemn commemoration of that Sacrifice which Christ offered up and so may be said to represent to the Father what his Son hath suffered on our behalf that he may graciously incline to bestow on us those Blessings which were so dearly purchased for us And we do in some sort Feast upon this Sacrifice by our eating and drinking of these holy Elements Here also we do make a Sacrifice or an Oblation of our selves both Souls and Bodies unto God as is exprest in our Liturgy in the Prayer after Receiving and here lastly we do offer up our Thanksgivings and Praises as also our Silver and Gold in Charity and Almsgivings which are the Christian Sacrifices still to be used under the Gospel and with which we read God is well pleased Heb. 13. 16. And in some of these senses are we to understand the Ancients when they speak of a Sacrifice or Oblation made to God at the Holy Table Especially if we consider that the Custom amongst them was as Learned Men inform us for the richer sort to bring good store of provision to this Table which they presented as their Oblation or Christian Sacrifice And out of these was taken the Bread and Wine which were Consecrated and made use of in the Holy Communion and the rest was either spent in their Love-feasts or went to the Poor and to the Clergy L. As there seems little reason to stile the Lords-Supper a Sacrifice save in the sense you have explained it so there seems yet less why they should call it a Sacrifice for the dead as well as the living T. Indeed there is no Reason at all for it nor so much as any colour from Scripture But this depends upon their dream of Purgatory of which we have already spoken an Opinion I told you very gainful to the Church on many accounts and particularly this custom of having Masses for the dead though it yields no profit to the dead themselves yet it brings in much to the living I mean to the Priests who receive great store of Money for these their Masses which is sometimes left by the deceased person himself and sometimes given by his Friends on his behalf this being generally looked upon in their Church as a work of extraordinary Charity and you may be sure warmly enough urged by the Priests and earnestly pleaded for from the very same principle that made the Silver smiths so zealous for Diana even because their Trade and Gain depended upon her honour Act. 19. 27. But whatever there may be of seeming Charity to a dead Friend or of real profit to the living Priest in this device most
mans right and yet will not allow him the benefit of having the Will to plead on his own behalf And this is plainly the course of the Roman Church in the present case for the Rulers withhold the Scripture from the people that they may the more easily detain them in a blind obedience to those Doctrines and commands of their own which are contrary to it and which they will not have examined by it And you may well suspect the man has bad wares to put off who will expose them no where but in a dark shop It 's much to be feared that Guide means not well who would have my eyes put out or fast closed that I may follow him blindfold He that teaches falshood as well as he that does evil is afraid of the light that will discover his error But to conclude this whatever Papists may talk of the obscurity of Scripture the true reason why they keep it out of the peoples hands is because it is too plain I mean because it so plainly contradicts several Doctrines and practices that are now current in their Church So plainly does the second Commandment forbid all worship of Images that by their good will they would not have it come into the peoples sight And as plainly doth the holy Scripture in other places forbid the worship of Angels or Saints having Prayers in an unknown tongue the taking away the Cup from the Laity plainly it confutes their Doctrine of Transubstantiation whilst it calls the holy Elements bread after Consecration In these and several other instances doth Scripture so plainly make against them that no wonder if therefore they are so much against the Scripture as that they will not commonly permit the people to read it but keep back from them this key of knowledg L. This seems to be the true reason but so bad a one that they are ashamed to own it And now I return you unseigned thanks for the pains you have taken to confirm me in the truth and to shew me the vanity and weakness of those arguings wherewith they of the Church of Rome do endeavour to excuse and palliate their gross errors and to impose upon common people who are sometimes easily misled T. No great wonder if with their subtilties they impose upon such as cannot well distinguish betwixt specious pretences and solid reasonings And indeed they do in some measure deserve to be imposed upon who will so far trust to their own weak judgments as not to seek direction and assistance from those who are able to give it but do presently conclude that if they themselves cannot answer a cunning Priest no body esse can and thereupon without more ado become his easie proselytes especially when some worldly interest draws them to it which is an argument quickly discerned but not easily resisted Yet it 's strange to see how these same persons when they are gone off from our Church presently seem so humble and modest as to suspect their own judgments they commonly refuse to discourse with our Ministers pretending they are not fit to meddle with controversies nor hold disputes They now refer themselves wholly to the Church their own Sect the Romish Church that must be their Judge and their Guide They might before dispute and yield and be Judges for themselves when they left our Church but now forsooth they are got as the Priest tells them whose word they must take for it into an infallible Church whose Doctrines and commands must never be questioned or examined nor any thing heard that can be objected against them All must be swallow'd without chewing they must believe as the Church believes though what that is they do not well know This is the way that Romish Priests commonly take with them and a cunning way it is for securing of the Converts they have once made but so grosly partial that a man of ordinary discretion may readily discern it and no sincere lover of truth will be drawn to comply with it For how can any man answer it to God or his own conscience to depart from that Church wherein he has been baptized and educated without a fair hearing what can be said for it and when he is drawn away into another Church becomes so fixed and resolute that he 'l hear nothing that can be said against it But you I confess have acted at another rate and I cannot but commend your ingenuity and diligence herein which I pray God to succeed for your establishment in that holy Religion in which you have hitherto been instructed and from which I hope you 'l never be perverted For it is the very truth of God taught by his Son Jesus in his holy Gospel the only infallible rule of Faith and Manners L. I do stedfastly believe that it is so and by the grace of God will never depart from it T. Does your Author meddle with no other points of controversie betwixt us and the Church of Rome L. He mentions no more that I find looking upon these I suppose as most material but toward the end of this Chapter he heaps up many bitter invectives against our Ministers as if they spoke ill of the Romish Church out of meer malice against their consciences only to make Papists envied and hated and that they often cite the holy Scripture to no purpose or to an ill one and do also falsifie and cut off what is not to their liking yea and have put whole Books out of the number of Canonical Scriptures in fine that they do all as the toy takes them without thinking of any judgment or hell to come after T. This is very severe indeed but so grosly false and spiteful that it deserves no more notice or answer than the revilings of an angry scold Only to the last heavy charge of putting out whole Books of Holy Scripture I shall answer a few words and leave you to judge of the rest by what truth you shall find in this accusation Know then that as to the New Testament we receive for Canonical all the same Books which the Church of Rome it self does and all other Christian Churches in the world so far as ever I have heard And as to the Old Testament we receive all those Books which were acknowledged for Canonical by the Iewish Church who are very competent witnesses in this case or by the Christian Church for four hundred years after our Saviour as learned Writers of our Church have demonstrated and particularly Bishop Cozens before named in his History of the Canon of Scripture As to those Books which are called Apocryphal though we have them not in the same esteem with the Sacred Writings of the Old and New Testament yet we have a just value for them as the works of pious men and of great antiquity and our Church appoints Lessons out of them to be publickly read though not on the Lords days thereby recommending them to the people who have them in their
hands and may read them as much as they please And especially those two Books Ecclesiasticus and that of Wisdom are well worthy to be read again and again as containing most excellent moral rules for the direction and guidance of our lives Consider then what an impudent thing it is for Papists to accuse our Church for putting out these Books of Apocrypha which yet are in so much use amongst us whilst they themselves endeavour in some sort to make the whole Bible Apocryphal I mean by their hiding it so much from the common people putting away not only some but even all the Books of Holy Writ very much from their sight And some of their Authors do speak so meanly and contemptibly of these holy Books which do so little service to their cause that they seem not to have so much respect for them as we have for the Apocrypha it self So that they of all people have least reason to condemn others for slighting or rejecting the holy Scriptures and our Church hath as little reason to be condemned as any other in the whole world As to his other spiteful suggestions I leave it to your self or any other impartial person to judge whether I have said any thing against the Doctrine of their Church without giving good reason for it And I can assure you I have not in this whole Discourse said one word against my conscience neither would I have you envy or hate any mans person be he Papist or what he will whilst you abstain from their errors For though I do not believe the Popish fiction of Purgatory yet I do firmly believe there is a future Judgment and an Hell prepared for the wicked and ungodly particularly for lyers and slanderers and for such as hate their neighbours upon any pretence whatever And is this all that your Author has to say L. He adds nothing more in this Chapter but advice to those who are seduced as he calls it that they should beg light from God and weigh what he has said and seek more instruction from good and learned Catholicks meaning I suppose Popish Priests chiefly T. There 's little doubt of it Now to prevent your being seduced by those who call themselves Catholicks but are not truly so I shall wish you to follow his advice so far as it 's good Humbly beg of God to enlighten your mind with the knowledg of the truth and be ever careful to do the will of God so far as you know it that so you may be the better qualified for the assistance and direction of his good Spirit which delights in men of pure hearts and humble minds Moreover I advise you to weigh impartially what is said on both sides and then be true to your own judgment and conscience in following that which has the plainest and fullest evidence of its truth I would not have you out of pride and vanity thrust your self upon disputes but when you cannot well avoid the discourses of their Priests or Gentlemen if you happen to be at any time somewhat puzled with their arguments do not hastily conclude them to be unanswerable but consult with your Minister or such as may be best able to inform and satisfie you And you may do well to furnish your self with some of those Books that are written by our Divines in defence of the Church of England against the Papists But above all Books let me earnestly request you with great diligence to study and search the holy Scriptures for in them you shall find the true way to eternal life Read there our Blessed Saviours own most Heavenly Discourses who spake as never man spake and particularly read often his most admirable Sermon in the Mount where you have the summ of Christian Religion Read also the several Epistles of the Apostles with the rest of those Scared Writings as you have opportunity and then honestly and impartially compare the Doctrines of our Church and those of the Church of Rome which differ from ours with what is taught in these same holy Books and what you shall find to be most plainly agreeable thereto that own and embrace and evermore firmly adhere to L. The Council you give me is most fair and reasonable which hitherto I have endeavoured to follow and by Gods grace will continue so to do For I can truly say it my chief design is to please God and save my soul And I cannot imagin any surer way to attain this than by studying well the Word of God wherein he hath revealed his will and the way to eternal salvation And certainly God is so good and gracious that he will not fail to direct and guide those into the right way who with sincere and honest minds do above all things desire and endeavour to know his will that they may do it Yea I look upon it as an instance of his kindness and good providence that I so happily met with you from whom I have received such full satisfaction And as for the subtle arguments of Papists I hope by that assistance which you have already given me and yet further will do I shall in a-good measure be able to answer them In the following Chapter my Author produces several of these subtilties which he calls pregnant arguments against Sectaries and these I shall desire you to consider and give an answer to T. I am very willing to do it but that I may not tire you we 'l refer this to our next meeting L. I am well content only one favour I shall request that in the mean time you would please at your leisure to send me in writing the summ of what you have now discoursed that I may have the benefit of perusing it and fixing it better in my mind T. I shall readily grant your request and praying God to lead you into and settle you in the truth shall for this time bid you farewell L. Farewell Good Sir The Second Part. CHAP. I. Containing an Answer to some Arguments against Protestants T. WELL met Friend L. I am heartily glad Sir to meet you again so soon and do return you many thanks both for the pains you took in your late Conference with me and that you was pleased as I desired to send me the summ of it in writing which I have read over again and again to my fuller satisfaction T. I shall reckon my self very well recompenced for what pains I have taken if you reap any advantage thereby L. That I have done very much I thank God For upon the review of my Popish Author so far as we have proceeded I meet not there with any objection against our Religion nor with any argument for Popery but what I can easily answer Nay more than this since I was with you I have read over the last Chapter of his Book the consiâ—eration of which you defer'd till this our second meeting and truly I have not been much gravel'd with any thing in it but can
tolerably well give answer thereto from what I have already heard from you Nor do I find here much that is new but many of the same things in other words drest up with much art and cunning T. I am glad you are so good a proficient and since you tell me this let us if you will for a while at least take a new method in our following discourse Give me your Book and for the trial of your skill I 'le propose thence the arguments which your Author makes use of and you shall return answers to the same L. I shall do my best but must crave your assistance when I am at a loss T. That you may be sure I shall readily give and if we meet with many the same things which we have had already we shall the quicklier dispatch them Only something I have to premise before I come to his arguments In the beginning of this his last Chapter he brings in his Scholar desiring to be furnish'd with some pregnant arguments for the reducing of Sectaries to the Catholick Church which he says they have groundlesly forsaken and cruelly persecuted Now what ground we whom he unjustly calls Sectaries had to forsake the Romish Church not the Catholick we have already shewn and shall do more but whilst he would insinuate that we Protestants have been grievous persecutors of Papists this I am sure is a very groundless charge and I wonder he had the impudence to fasten it upon us especially considering how infamous their own Church hath long been for the most cruel bloody persecution of poor Protestants meerly upon account of Religion and that in this Kingdom to go no further Whereas it 's very rare that any Papist hath suffered the loss of his life amongst us purely upon that account nor should I desire ever to see such severity used toward them or any other Sect if they will but live peaceably and not disturb the Government But most certain and undeniable it is that many of them have suffered for downright Treason and Rebellion as in the Gunpowder-Plot and at several other times And indeed our Laws make it Treason for any of the Kings subjects to go to the Church of Rome for Orders and then come over to draw away the people into communion with that Church this being look'd on as a seducing of them from their Allegiance to his Majesty which no wise Prince will suffer And with good reason is it so look'd on since few of these Priests will take the Oath of Allegiance and do reckon themselves exempt from the Civil power and both they and their deluded proselytes are taught to prefer the power of a foreign Potentate viz. the Bishop of Rome before that of their own Prince Some of them indeed say not all that this his power is only in Spirituals but whilst the Pope is judge in his own cause what either is spiritual or has a tendency to it may he not under this pretence extend his power as far as he pleases as you heard before But though in this and other instances the principles of Papists are extremely dangerous to the Civil Government yet I wonder whether Protestants may be permitted to live as quietly in Italy or Spain as thousands of Papists do here in England Nay at this day even in France it self what disturbances and persecutions do poor Protestants meet with and that chiefly as is said through the malicious instigations of fierce and furious Clergy men whilst yet we hear not that they can in the least charge them with any seditious or unpeaceable behaviour What impudence then is it for Papists to cast such dishonourable reflections upon our Government whether of Church or State as if we were guilty of I know not what rigorous proceedings against them Whereas it will be hard to find any where in Christendom more mildness than in the Church of England nor any where more cruelty and severity than in that of Rome whose bloody Inquisition has been long talked of throughout the world But to follow your Author yet before he brings forth his Arguments he tells us that Christ sends us to the Church quoting Matt. 18. 17. That if we neglect to hear the Church we must be counted for no better than Heathens and Publicans What this makes to his purpose I do not well understand For this seems plainly to be meant of that particular Church whereof we are Members in peaceable communion wherewith we ought to live rendring chearful obedience to all its lawful injunctions But what 's this to the Church of Rome which neither has any Authority over us in England and whose impositions are notoriously sinful He next quotes that of St. Paul 1 Tim. 3. 15. That the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Which is true both of the Catholick Church and of every particular Church that is a sound Member of it For hereby is declared that the truth of the Gospel that is the Christian Religion is carefully preserved openly profest and taught in the Christian Church The expression here made use of is commonly thought to allude to the fixing up of Writings upon a Pillar in some publick place that they may be seen and read of all like that in Iosh. 8. 32. But still I am to seek what this makes for his advantage If he only intend by these Quotations to prove that a Man ought to live in communion with the true Church of Christ and to behave himself peaceably and obediently in that particular Church of which he is a Member Who denies it Or what will he gain by it Since this tends nothing to prove it our duty to become Members of the Romish Church to believe all her Doctrines and obey her commands Well but this is that he will now demonstrate we are all bound to and that by five Arguments all of them as he fancies most strong and unanswerable which we shall particularly survey and examine the strength of them His first is That Church is to be heard in which there is most assurance that one is in the way to Salvation but in the Roman Church there is most assurance of this and therefore she is to be heard and obey'd What say you to this L. I deny that there is most assurance of our being in the way to Salvation in the Roman Church T. And well you may but thus he goes on to prove it Protestants grant that one living and dying in the Roman Church may be saved else they condemn all their Ancestors to the pit of Hell and therefore those of that Church have most assurance of their Salvation since it 's granted by all that they are in the way to it and thus he says it has been held by all the World time out of mind And to give full strength to his Argument we must add what he has in other places that Papists deny that a Protestant can be saved whilst Protestants grant that a Papist may and
therefore does not the Papist seem to be of the surer side L. No but the quite contrary I think may be concluded from this very Argument since as I have before heard from you this very uncharitableness of the Papists in condemning all that are not of their way makes their own Salvation to be very hazardous Judge not saith our Saviour lest ye be judged whilst the Protestant by his Charity shews himself to be a better Christian and consequently in the surer way to Salvation And had I no other Argument against turning Papist this alone would keep me from it that I should then stand bound by the Decrees of Popes and Popish Councils to look upon all men in a state of Damnation who are out of the Romish Church for so they have determined as I have often heard and my Author seems plainly to assert it T. There is a great deal of Truth and Reason in what you say For this is the current Doctrine of their Church though some of the common people will not own it But beside this it is to be considered that though a Protestant may have charitable thoughts of an honest Papist yet this makes nothing at all for the commendation of Popery since it is not for this that he is saved not for his embracing of Propery I mean but for his belief of the Gospel and his obedience to it In the mean time Popery is his disease and makes his condition very hazardous only we hope that possibly he may be saved notwithstanding it As a man that has the Plague or has taken poison it 's possible he may recover but yet his condition is very sad and full of danger and no man in his wits will venture upon Poison or a Pesthouse because there is a possibility of escaping Whatever Charity then we may have for a well-meaning Papist I 'le assure you we have no good opinion of Popery but do with great reason assert that they who embrace it do run a great hazard of their Salvation whilst they entertain Doctrines not only false in themselves but very pernicious in their effects being great hindrances to piety and holiness without which no man shall see God And beside their bad Doctrines great is their danger whilst they corrupt Religion by their Idolatrous worship and here in this Kingdom disobey their Rulers and Schismatically withdraw from that Church with which they ought to hold Communion and this meerly in compliance with the usurpation of a foreign Power These and many other ill things they do which we would not for a World be guilty of yet after all we are not rash to pass a Sentence of Damnation upon them to their own Master let them stand or fall to whose mercy we leave them whilst they deliver us up to Satan But this while our Charity gives small encouragement to a wise man to turn Papist L. If the rest of his Arguments be like this there 's no such strength in them as he boasts of T. You must not expect good Arguments for a bad Cause As to what he talks of condemning our Ancestors to Hell it no way follows though we should be of opinion that Salvation is not ordinarily to be had in the present Church of Rome For those Ancestors of ours who first embraced Christianity were no Papists paid no homage to the Bishop of Rome neither in those days had that Church defiled it self with those corruptions which were brought in by degrees in after Ages And withal the ignorance of our forefathers in those corrupter times may do somewhat to excuse them but should we continue in their errors who now enjoy the clearer light of the Gospel we were utterly inexcusable Whilst we have charity for our Ancestors we ought to take care of our own Souls Neither yet was there any time when the whole World own'd the Romane Church to be the only way to Salvation as he boldly and falsly asserts L. Surely no For when Religion was most pure in the Church of Rome no doubt but the Members of any other sound and orthodox Church might be saved as well as those of that Church which did not then claim jurisdiction over all other Churches as you have formerly told me nor was it looked upon as necessary to Salvation for a Man to own the Popes Supremacy in those early days T. Most certainly it was not nor is there any more reason that now it should I am sure this is none which your Author has produced viz. That Protestants generally grant it possible for a Papist to be saved whilst Papists will not grant that a Protestant can On which I shall bestow a few more words And pray take notice that this is a very deceitful way of arguing and has little of strength in it if it be well examined A Protestant is never the worse for a Papists hard thoughts of him nor a Papist the better for our greater charity to him We have other Rules and Measures by which we are to proceed in the present case and are to consider whether the Papist has any good reason for his uncharitable opinion else he himself may be hurt by it but not we nor our Cause Sometimes I grant in matters of difference a Man may be inclinable to yield to that which he perceives both parties are agreed in but this will by no means be found in the case before us For the Protestant does not grant the Papist to be in a safe way to Salvation nor yet that Popery truly so called is at all the way to Salvation but rather a great hindrance to it the utmost he grants is only this that possibly a Papist notwithstanding the dangerous errors and corruptions of their Church may be saved But in the mean time he asserts and he proves that the belief and practice of the Holy Christian Religion which is most purely profest amongst Protestants is the surest and safest way to Salvation Now when a Papist shall come and tell you that Protestants are no Christians have no Faith no Holiness are out of the Catholick Church and therefore cannot possibly be saved all this noise and nonsence ought no more to affect you than the ravings of a Mad-Man or the like rude and insolent Language of furious Quakers who like Mad-men indeed at their first coming up used to cry aloud to any Man that opposed them Thou art damn'd Man thou art damn'd And at this rate I have heard do the wretched besotted followers of Muggleton talk at this day And truly herein both they and the Papists deserve to be regarded all alike That is the Men pitied and their Censures slighted and despised And yet to shew you more plainly if it may be the folly of this way of Arguing let me give you a like instance whereby you may judge of it which with others of the same nature I find made use of by some of our Writers to this same purpose Suppose we then a Man sick
of some dangerous Disease and seeking to an able Physician for advice which when he has received and is about to follow it in comes a bold Mountebank and tells the Man it 's utterly impossible he should ever recover by hearkning to his Physician but if he will be guided by him all shall be well for he has an infallible Cure at hand that will certainly do the work Now suppose the Physician be so modest that he will not answer this impudent Quack in his own language nor say it 's impossible for his Medicines to do any good only he deals honestly with his patient and tells him of the danger of trusting himself in such a Mans hands who takes very desperate courses and where he cures one kills Twenty but for himself he shall prescribe nothing but what he can demonstrate to be safe and good and which through God's blessing hath often been very effectual Now in point of prudence what ought the patient to do in this case What must he reject a skilful and safe Physician because he speaks with modesty and caution and chuse the daring ignorant Mountebank because he talks big and boldly and boasts of Infallible Receipts of a certain and speedy Cure L. No surely by no means T. Yet so he should do by this Authors Argument for the choice of their Church because forsooth she condemns all others and commends her self talking as much of Infallibility as the most cheating Mountebank is used to do and with much what the same reason and truth The Case is so like that I need not trouble you with applying it L. No you need not For I understand it well enough and as well do I discern the weakness of his Argument T. And yet for your fuller satisfaction if need be I would have you read that Sermon I formerly told you of on 1 Cor. 3. 13. by a Reverend Divine of the Church of England where you will find this piece of sophistry so shamefully bafled and exposed that he must be a very silly and shameless Priest that will ever offer to make use of it more Wherefore to all that hath been said on this subject I shall only suggest one thing more to your consideration viz. that so far as this Argument hath any force in it it may with great advantage be retorted on Papists themselves For if that way be safest to be chosen in which both parties are agreed then are we Protestants clearly on the safer side For they themselves own the Scriptures which we embrace they approve of the Creeds which we hold they cannot but allow of the Worship of God in the name of Jesus Christ with all other the substantials of our Religion which as I have often said is nothing else but Christianity it self But now we do utterly disown the additions which the Romish Church has made to the Ancient Creeds many of their traditions we also reject as being plainly repugnant to the Holy Scriptures we condemn their worship of Images of Angels and Saints as being neither commanded by God nor practised by the Church of Christ in the Primitive times Hence then you may be informed what is safest to chuse and follow whether the plain and pure Religion of Jesus Christ profest in our Church and acknowledged by all Christians in the World even by the Papists themselves or to swallow down all those new Articles which their Church has added to the Christian Faith and defile our selves with those superstitions with which they have corrupted the Worship of God Many of which Doctrines and Practices are disapproved by all Christians but those of their own Sect and which upon good grounds we believe to be so utterly unlawful and pernicious that they make the condition of those in the Romish Church very hazardous and for our selves should we embrace them we could have no hopes of Salvation Judge then upon the whole what is safest to be chosen L. I confess I see little or no difficulty in the Case wherefore pray proceed to the second Argument T. I shall repeat to you what he calls so though for my part I find nothing in it that may deserve the name of an Argument Thus it runs That Church is not to be heard whose Authors and chief Doctors are meer Cozeners and Impostors and such he says are all but those of the Roman Church and therefore are not to be heard L. I deny that the Authors and Doctors of our Church are Cozeners and Impostors T. Thus he goes about to prove it They all say that they will reform the Roman Church with the pure Word of God and yet they have never done it nor will ever be able and therefore they are all meer Cozeners and Impostors This is all the proof he gives L. This all seems to me just nothing for I reckon that the Author of our Religion was no other than our Blessed Saviour and the first Teachers of it were the holy Apostles and Evangelists who taught it by their Preaching and then committed it to Writing in the Holy Word of God which we most readily embrace and in which our Religion is wholly contained And surely these were no Cozeners or Impostors but rather they who have corrupted Religion by their own novel inventions contrary to this Holy Word T. This is very true that you say but here by the Authors of our Church he means those Learned men who were instrumental for the reforming it from those inventions which he pleads for as a part of Religion L. This I believe to be his meaning But since these good men by Gods assistance did actually reform our Church by the pure Word of God from those Popish corruptions wherewith it was before polluted I admire why he should say they were Cozeners and Impostors for not doing what they pretended they would when as they have really done it T. And admire you still may For I cannot guess at his reason except by the Roman Church he means that particular Church which is at Rome or else the whole Sect of Papists all who own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and so stile themselves the Romish Church Take it in either of these senses and I confess this Romish Church is not yet reformed But this rather shews their obstinacy than any thing of deceitfulness in those who have attempted their Reformation If the Prophets and pious people of old would have healed Babylon and she would not be healed was this any dishonour to the Prophets Neither surely were any of the first Reformers so vain as to say that they would certainly reform the whole Church of Rome though they might heartily desire it and in their several places diligently endeavour it And thanks be to God through his assistance and blessing these their endeavours have been most happily successful in many Nations of the World and particularly in this our Kingdom of England for the delivering of our Church from the Usurpation of the Pope and
from the corruptions of Popery the Blessed Fruits whereof we do at this day enjoy and hope we shall still continue so to do through the same Divine Grace and favour which first bestowed this mercy upon us though most unworthy of the same But leave we this shadow of an Argument and pass to his third L. Pray do so T. It is this That Church is only to be heard which â—â—s all the marks of a true Church but the Roman Câ—urch has them and no other therefore she only is to be â—â—ard These marks as he goes on are Antiquity Miracles Holiness of Life and Doctrine Universality Uâ—â—ty Succession of Bishops from the Apostles these he calls Infallible Marks of the true Church which belong to none but that of Rome L. These marks of the Church or most of them I do well remember you spoke largely to in the beginning of our â—â—st conference and from what you have there said I 〈◊〉 furnished with a sufficient Answer to this Argument viz. that the Church of Rome as it is now corrupted with â—hose Doctrines wherein Popery consists such as the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility Purgatory Transubstantiation c. it cannot truly plead these marks he lays down For these Popish Doctrines are not of the same Antiquity with pure Christianity there never were any true Miracles wrought to confirm them they are not Holy in themselves nor do tend to promote Holiness of Life but rather the contrary they are not nor ever were Universally received by all Christian Churches nor is there much Unity amongst themselves in their explication of them though if there were this signifies nothing as being but the Unity of a Sect within it self and though their Bishops may live in the same City that the Apostles once did yet they did not receive these Doctrines from the Apostles but have introduced them since some at one time some at another and therefore in respect of Doctrine they are not the Apostles Successors nor are to be hearkned to as such T. What you alledge is most undeniably true And let me further add that suppose the Church of Rome were now as pure in its Doctrine and Worship as in the very days of the Apostles it was so that these marks did really belong to it yet this is no good Argument that we must all therefore be of the Church of Rome if ever we hope to be saved since many other Churches might plead the same even all that received the Christian Religion in the same purity and simplicity whose Members therefore might have as good grounds to hope for Salvation But when we further consider how that Church has degenerated from its Primitive purity beside that it has no dominion over us there is still much less reason that we should for the embracing of her Communion desert our own Church of England which is a most sound part of the Catholick Church as any this day in Christendom To her agree all the marks of a true Church as I have formerly shewn She hath these mention'd by this Author Antiquity c. For the Doctrines of our Church are as old as the times of our Saviour and his Apostles This is that true Christian Doctrine which was confirmed by all those Miracles which are recorded in the New-Testament These Doctrines are all Holy as well as True and have a natural tendency to make men Holy and Good These are Universally received by all Christian Churches that now are or ever were in the World being the very same you find summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Thus are we at Unity with the truly Catholick Church and thus whilst our Ministers Preach the very same Doctrines use the same Worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did they are in that respect truly their Successors Yea beside this those Bishops of our Church whom God made use of for the Reformation of it did receive their Orders from those who were of the Church of Rome so that if their Ordination be valid so is ours if they have a succession from the Apostles so have we To say nothing of what is commonly related in History that some of the Apostles or Apostolical men sent by them first planted Christianity in these parts from which time it was never utterly rooted out But I think I need add nothing more on this Head having already said so much in another place L. No Sir but rather proceed to the fourth Argument T. It is this That Church is to be heard which takes the narrow way that leads to Life Matt. 7. but the Roman Church takes it and therefore she is to be heard And this he proves because she takes as he says not only the way of Gods commands but also the narrow way of Christs Counsels What say you to this L. Even the same in effect that you lately said upon the former Argument viz. that supposing it to be true that the Church of Rome does take this narrow way yet it is not she alone that takes it and therefore there is no necessity that I should renounce all other Churches for Communion with her I am sure there is no reason why I should on this account forsake our own Church wherein the precepts of Christ are most plainly taught and strictly urged upon the people and in the very same way to Heaven are we dayly exhorted to walk in which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles have led us by their Example as well as Doctrine even the way of Piety Righteousness and serious Holiness T. Your Answer is solid and true L. But I have yet somewhat more to say against his Argument and do directly deny that their Church takes the same way to Salvation in all things which our Saviour hath proposed in his Gospel For whatever he talks of their following not only his Commands but his Counsels yet sure I am that their Church requires many things to be believed and done in order to Salvation which our Blessed Saviour never commanded counsel'd or taught and therefore in these things they do not take the way of the Gospel but one of their own devising For in the Gospel we no where find that a Man cannot be saved except he acknowledge the Popes Supremacy believe Transubstantiation worship Images c. These things I think are directly contrary to the Doctrines and Precepts of the Gospel and yet these with many more of like nature are required in the Roman Church with all strictness imaginable in doing of which she takes not the way of the Gospel nor therefore in this ought she to be heard T. Most certainly she ought not But you have all the reason in the World to remain fixed in Communion with your own Church which requires nothing to be believed or practised as of necessity to Salvation but what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures Herein following the direction which our Saviour gave to his Apostles and in them to their Successors Matt. 28. ult that they should
means he then by saying that none of the Ancients consent with us in all things In every little oppinion it 's scarce likely there were or ever will be two men in the World that do exactly agree No such agreement I am sure is to be found amongst the Divines of the Roman Church But as sure it is that we agree with the Apostles and Ancient Churches in all things material and substantial in all points of Faith necessary to Salvation For we embrace the same Holy Scriptures and the same Creeds which they did What means he again by saying that the Apostles were not of the Lutheran or Calvinistical Sect What that they were not followers of Luther or Calvin They were not like indeed but it 's enough I hope if Luther and Calvin were followers of the Apostles Thus what if he should say that the Apostles were not of the Church of England Is it not sufficient that our Church embraces the same Faith which the Apostles planted in all places where they came Wherefore we may with great reason conclude contrary to his extravagant and most uncharitable inferences that we have the true Christian Faith in our Church and not any new-fangled invention c. If the Apostles Creed be a Summary of the true Faith I am sure we have it since we do most heartily embrace this Creed and those Holy Scriptures whence it 's taken and therefore we are none of those false Prophets foretold in Scripture For whilst we keep close to God's Word as the rule of our Faith we are safe enough from deserving any such charge But how will they of the Romish Church acquit themselves from it whilst they have brought in many devices of their own to which the Apostles and Primitive Christians were meer strangers and therefore cannot be said to consent with Papists therein Such are their Doctrines of Purgatory Transubstantiation c. Such are their customs of praying in an unknown Tongue having private Masses where the Priest only receives in their publick Assemblies their half-Communions giving only the Bread to the people when they do Communicate c. None of these things were anciently taught or used in the Church and some of them but lately established amongst themselves These therefore we may justly say are new-fangled inventions devised of their own Brain contrary to Holy Scriptures And they who broach and maintain them are in this respect false Teachers and probably some of those who are foretold in Scripture at least they and their false Doctrines are condemned by it and that 's enough for our purpose L. It is so indeed and enough have you said to weaken and refute this his first Proposition If the rest have no more strength they are far from deserving that great title he gives them I shall rehearse the next if you please T. Presently you shall only take notice from what hath been said how plain the Answer is to that captious Question of theirs Where was your Religion before Luther Where was it Even there whereever the Gospel was received whereever the Christian Doctrine was own'd for that is our Religion and nothing but that It was therefore in the Primitive Church that was planted by the Apostles and in the whole Catholick Church in all succeeding Ages Our Religion was both in the East and the West even in the Roman Church it self For we grant they still retain'd the Christian Faith they kept and do still keep the Apostles Creed though they have added several new Articles to it and that especially in their Council of Trent which appear'd not in the World quite so soon as Luther Now the truly Catholick Ancient Christian Faith we receive but their new-coin'd Articles we reject So that before the Reformation our Religion was in their Church as Gold in a heap of Dirt or as one long since exprest it as the pure Flower amongst the Bran or as Corn among Tares And by the Reformation we only wash'd away this Dirt sifted out the Bran and plucked up the Tares But the old Religion the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles remains pure and entire L. But say they where did the Apostles teach that there is no Purgatory no Transubstantiation c Yet thus the Protestants teach and therefore they consent not with the Apostles T. Yes certainly but they do for as I have formerly told you we therefore say there is no Purgatory c. because the Apostles say no such things which be sure they would have done had they been true since they are such weighty and material points as the Church of Rome now accounts them What the Apostles taught that we receive what they taught not we refuse as knowing they were faithful in delivering all that they received of the Lord. Judge then which of us consents most with the Apostles we who receive all their Doctrines but reject what they never taught of they who teach these new Doctrines which neither the Apostles nor any of their first followers ever delivered nor were they for some Hundred years after generally profest so much as in their own Church Yea these Novelties were never directly and formally established as Articles of Faith and made necessary for all men of their Communion to believe till in these latter Ages some of them as I take it not till the very Council of Trent not yet an Hundred and fifty years since which they call a General Council though packt up of Bishops of their own Sect and the major part the Popes own creatures who used all the foul arts imaginable to carry things according to his humour as is plainly to be seen in the History of that Council written by some of their own Church Now in respect of these Articles in which Popery chiefly consists we may with great reason retort the question and demand Where was your Religion before the Council of Trent And were the Apostles of the same opinion with these Trent Fathers Compare their Creeds together and it will easily appear Yea compare that of Trent with any other of the old Creeds such as the Nicene or Constantinopolitan and it will easily appear what additions they have made to the ancient Faith whereas our Church receives those very same Creeds without addition or diminution To conclude this though we readily grant their Popish Errors to have been before our Reformation from them for they could not be cast out before they were brought in yet the great truths of our Religion were taught and received in the Church some Ages before those Errors were ever heard of Our Religion then did not first appear in Luther's days when the Reformation was wrought but is as old as since the time of Christ and his Apostles being nothing else but pure Christianity resormed from the errors and abuses of Popery These things I have already oft mentioned but could not well avoid the repetition of them on occasion of this his first Proposition which by this time you see
therefore whilst the people take the Flesh under the species of Bread this may very well serve without taking the Wine too But if this be a good reason Why then need the consecrating Priest take the Wine Or why need our Saviour have appointed both Bread and Wine to be made use of in this his Holy Supper Here then you have a plain instance of their practising contrary to the Scripture in so weighty a matter as the Administring the Holy Communion To this may be joyn'd their custom of private Masses or Communions if that be not a contradiction the Priest himself many times receiving alone and none of the people who are present partaking with him contrary to the first institution of this Holy Sacrament and to the very nature and design of it as it is a Communion and contrary also to the practice of the Primitive Church To these may a great many more easily be added of which we have formerly taken notice Such as having their Prayers in an unknown Tongue contrary to the Apostles direction 1 Cor. 14. Their Worshipping of Saints and Angels which is forbidden in all those places that command us to Worship God alone in the name of Jesus Christ our only Mediator and most expresly Col. 2. 18. Rev. 22. 9. Also their Worship of Images and of the Host contrary to the second Commandment And for an instance of their false Doctrines many of which we have often mentioned we need go no further than that palpable one of Transubstantiation which he mentions as agreeable to Scripture that says This is my body But how little these words make for his purpose we have before shewn and that their plain meaning is This is the Sacrament of my Body or the representation and commemoration of it and the way of conveying the benefits that come by it according to the constant use of the like expressions in the matter of Sacraments even as the Paschal Lamb is called the Passover of which it was only a solemn Memorial But that the natural substance of Bread and consequently of Wine remains after Consecration we have proved from the Apostle who again and again calls it so 1 Cor. 11. How then can he say that without ground we separate from the Romish Church Since if there were nothing else to be blamed this alone were sufficient reason to keep out of their Communion since in order to it they require our belief of a Doctrine most apparently false namely that of Transubstantiation and enjoyn a practice founded upon this Doctrine which is notoriously sinful viz. the Worship of the Consecrated Elements as if they were now turned into the substance of Christ's Body and Blood yea into whole Christ both as to his Divine and Humane Nature Now they themselves as you have heard do grant that if there was no such change made by Consecration this Worship would be idolatrous and therefore we being upon good grounds assured that no such change there is do utterly abhor the very thoughts of such Idolatrous worship and do believe our selves bound in Conscience to Almighty God to undergo a Thousand deaths rather than be guilty of it yea though we lived in Popish Countries But besides this we here in England owe no manner of obedience to the Bishop of Rome nor are under any obligation to forsake the Communion of our own Church for that of the Romish but should be guilty of that hainous sin of Schism by so doing as the Papists amongst us are at this day of which more in another place As to what he talks that they who go from their Church can give no reason why they should rather turn to Luther than to the Calvinists c. it concerns not us in the least who neither turn to the one or the other but continue in Communion with our own Church in which we were Baptized and live in obedience to our own Rulers in Church and State whom God hath set over us Nor do I discern by what reason he makes this silly inference nor yet for what purpose But let me hear his next Argument L. It cannot be proved that ever at any time were admitted any Priests that were not first duly consecrated by Bishops Wherefore we rightly infer that all Lutheran Ministers Calvinists or any other Sects not Consecrated according to the old custom of the Holy Church are for both from the name and reality of the Divine Priesthood and so that in their Cene or Supper as they call it they give but a meer piece of Bread as also that they have no power to Absolve from Sins but send away people as entangled and defiled with Sin as they were when they came to them T. As to this Argument we of the Church of England are nothing concerned in it since our Priests receive Ordination from Bishops and therefore have as full authority for the exercise of their Ministerial function as those of any Christian Church in the World Some other Reformed Churches also do embrace Episcopal Government As for such who want it we shall not enter into a dispute concerning the validity of their Orders But this I think we may safely assert that if the people be duly qualified for the Lord's Supper as St. Paul himself calls it 1 Cor. 11. 20. by a firm belief of the Gospel and sincere love and obedience to our Blessed Saviour they shall not want the benefits that are promised to worthy Communicants through any defect or irregularity in the Ordination of their Ministers And if they do truly repent of their sins and forsake them they shall for Christ's sake obtain forgiveness from God though never any Priest should give them Absolution But on the other hand our Writers have shewn that according to the common principle received in the Romish Church That the truth of Sacraments depends upon the intention of the Priest the people cannot be certain at any time that they have true Sacraments no nor whether he be a true Priest that Administers them But I shall trouble you with nothing more on this Argument L. There is no need since it reaches not our Church in the least I shall therefore proceed to the fifth which is this It cannot be found in the whole Holy Scripture that nothing is to be believed but what clearly and expresly is contained written in the same whence follows the ruine and overthrow of the ground-work on which Lutherans Calvinists and other Sectaries rely when they affirm that nothing is to be believed but what is expresly set down in Holy Writ T. I wonder who says so Every thing is to be believed that has sufficient evidence of its truth whether it be in Scripture or not But this we say and this I suppose he means to argue against that nothing is of necessity to be believed in order to Salvation but what is contain'd in Holy Scripture Which in effect is the same as to say that the Holy Scripture contains all necessary
that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much
either by Apostasie Heresie or Schism 1 Apostasie is a renouncing not only the Faith of Christ but the very name and title to Christianity No man will say that ever the Church of Rome fell thus 2 Heresie is an adhesion to some private or singular opinion or error in Faith contrary to the general approved Doctrine of the Church If the Church of Rome did ever adhere to any singular or new opinion disagreeable to the common received Doctrine of the Christian world I pray you satisfie me to these particulars 1. By what General Council was she condemn'd 2. Or which of the Fathers wrote against her 3. Or by what authority was she otherwise reproved for it seems to me a thing very incongruous that so great a Church should be condemn'd by every one that has a mind to condemn her 3 Schism is a departure or a division from the unity of the Church whereby that bond and communion held with some former Church is broken and dissolved If ever the Church of Rome divided it self by schism from any other body of faithful Christians brake communion or went forth from the society of any Elder Church I pray satisfie me to these particulars whose company did she leave From whom did she go forth Where was the true Church which she did forsake For it appears a little strange to me that a Church should be accounted Schismatical when there cannot be assign'd another Church different from her which from age to age hath continued visible from which she departed Hence he infers That the Church of Rome is the only true Church that leads to an eternity of bliss T. This indeed they commonly boast of as an unanswerable demonstration which they often scatter abroad in papers for the deluding of silly people Now though I see nothing in it but what has already been answered again and again yet for your fuller satisfaction Consider 1 suppose that we should grant his whole argument and every word in it to be true yet will it do little service to their cause nor will by any means yield that inference he would draw from it viz. that the Church of Rome is the only true Church and therefore to her communion we must betake our selves leaving the Church of England if ever we hope for salvation For pray what if we shou'd grant which yet he will never be able to prove that the Church of Rome is at this day as true and sound and flourishing a Church as we own it once to have been and should yield that it never fell by Apostasie Heresie or Schism what follows hence I beseech you What that she is the only true Church and the whole Catholick Church No by no means but only that she ought to be look'd upon as a sound part of the Catholick Church and therefore that her members viz. the Christians of that Diocess ought to live in strict fellowship with her and all other neighbouring Churches ought to give her due respect in maintaining such communion with her as sister-Churches are capable of holding one with another But it does not I say in the least follow that she is the supreme Mistress and Governess of all other Churches and therefore that all Christians in the world must render subjection to her and her Bishop otherwise they are to be look'd upon as no members of the Catholick Church nor at present in a capacity of salvation For such a supreme Mistress as this she never was when in her best and purest state nor therefore ought she to be esteemed so at this day neither do we of this Church owe obedience to her nor ought we to leave our own Church for her sake or at her command L. I cannot see how his argument proves us at all obliged thereto nor consequently how it reaches his purpose T. That it does not will still appear plainer if instead of Rome you name any other ancient Church suppose that of Ierusalem which was once very glorious and flourishing and deserved above all others to be stiled a Mother-Church now suppose that at this day it remain'd as sound and good as ever it was and to use his language that it never fell by Apostasie Heresie or Schism pray would it hence follow that all other Churches and particularly this of England must therefore yield subjection to the Church of Ierusalem That our Bishops must pay homage to the Bishop of that Church owning their dependance upon him and living in obedience to him And if they should refuse to do thus must our people therefore forsake their own Bishops and Clergy and withdraw from the Churches where they officiate and entertain Bishops or Priests that are sent over to us from Ierusalem and run into corners with them for the worship of God Surely there is not the least reason for any of this and not a whit more is there for our being thus subject to the Bishop of Rome or for our receiving and joyning with the Priests which are sent over to us by his authority There never was nor is now any reason why we should be thus enslaved to the Romish Church For in the very days of the Apostles and some hundred years after when that Church was in its best and purest state we of the Church of England rendred no such obedience to it own'd no such dependance upon it Neither indeed did the Bishops of that Church then claim any such power and Supremacy over us and other foreign Churches Wherefore as our ancestors the British Christians did not subject themselves to the Bishop of Rome nor ever thought such a subjection necessary to their salvation no more have we reason to do Whatever power or precedency the Bishops of Rome might afterwards have in these Western parts either by favour of the Emperor or by consent of the Bishops amongst themselves or most of all by their own daily encroachments by the meer advantage of their Seat without either law or reason this I say nothing at all concerns us at this day since all his power here is utterly abrogated and taken away by just and lawful authority in a most mature and deliberate manner as you before heard And I then told you how in Henry the Eighth's time before our happy Reformation it was generally own'd and declared by the Popish Clergy themselves that the Bishop of Rome had no more authority over us in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem Antioch or any other foreign Bishop And long before that our Laws limited and restrain'd the Popes power as it seem'd good to our Rulers And so do Popish Princes themselves at this day suffering him to have no more power or priviledg amongst them than themselves think fit Since then the Church of Rome in the very days of its primitive purity and glory had no power over us in this Church no more hath it at this day nor ought to have though it were still as pure and good as at first it was
which we are far from granting And even this much may well enough serve to shew the weakness of his argument L. Very weak it is indeed when though it should be granted yet makes little or nothing to his purpose T. But in the next place I would have you further consider what has often before been suggested and proved that the Church of Rome is at this day so degenerated and corrupted that supposing you lived under a Popish Government even in Rome it self where the Pope is in effect King as well as Bishop yet there it would be utterly unlawful for you to hold communion with that Church upon the terms now required by it For this Church I say is foully degenerated from its Primitive purity both in Doctrine Worship and Discipline and is thereby guilty in some sort of Apostasie Heresie and Schism even so far as to make her communion unlawful since it cannot be had without a most sinful compliance with her in gross errors and corruptions 1 I say she is guilty of Apostasie and have before made it evident in that she teaches such false Doctrines as were not own'd and uses such a corrupt way of worship as was not practised in the first ages of the Christian Church Hereby therefore she has Apostatized or departed from that purity and integrity which she was once honoured with when her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1. For pray consider a Church may be guilty of a great degree of Apostasie though she does not renounce the very name and title of Christianity Those Churches of Asia to which the Messages were sent in the second and third of the Revelation did not renounce the name of Christians but yet we read that they had faln from their first love and were so far declined that of some of them it s said they had only a name to live and were dead and are severely threatned that without repentance and reformation they should be destroy'd How the Church of Rome has vilely degenerated from the Primitive Church has already been shewn in many instances particularly as to their way of Worship whilst they pray to Angels and Saints make use of Images worship the Consecrated bread take away the Cup from the people in the Communion have their Service in an unknown Tongue c. Now because she is guilty of such Apostasie and corruption in her Worship every good Christian who makes conscience of worshipping God according to his will reveal'd in his Word may justly refuse to joyn with her therein 2 And not only in her Worship but in her Doctrine also she hath apostatized from the Primitive integrity even from the true rule of Faith the holy Word of God And on this account she may justly be reputed guilty of Heresie if by that word you understand very soul and gross errors apparently contrary to the holy Scriptures and to the Doctrines of the Primitive Church Such for instance are their Doctrines of the Popes Supremacy and power of deposing Princes for Heresie and of their Churches Infallibility be it in Pope Council people or where you will for they are not agreed amongst themselves about it Such also are their Doctrines of Transubstantiation Purgatory with others the like Now here it 's a vain thing to ask by what General Council were these Errors condemned what Fathers wrote against them c. since there never was any true General Council called since the Church of Rome broached and maintain'd these Errors And those who are commonly honoured with the title of Fathers viz. the Christian Writers for five or six hundred years after our Saviour were dead and gone before that time Though some of the most holy and learned men of those ages wherein these Errors were first published did with great zeal and diligence oppose and testifie against them as against Transubstantiation Image-worship c. But it 's enough for us that these Doctrines are contrary to Scripture and to the writings of the most ancient Fathers and were never established by those famous Councils of old which best deserve the name of General On account therefore of these false Doctrines also I reckon it utterly unlawful to hold communion with the Romish Church since we cannot be admitted to it without professing our consent to and approbation of them 3 And therefore lastly this Church is notoriously guilty of Schism that is of a groundless sinful separation from other faithful Christians whilst she makes such unlawful terms of Communion that no man well informed can with a good conscience comply with Now in order to our proving the Church of Rome guilty of Schism there 's no great need of answering his captious questions whose company did she leave where was the true Church which she forsook c. For though these questions are proper enough when we speak of the Schism of particular persons from the Church of which they were members yet the case is different when we are speaking of a whole Church its self becoming Schismatical this is to be shewn plainest by other methods to which I shall now apply my self and shall also as I go along give sufficient answer even to those questions so as shall abundantly serve to demonstrate the Church of Rome to be deeply guilty of this heinous sin of Schism and that on sundry accounts 1. If a particular Church shall advance her self above all other Churches and set up her Bishop as the Supreme Governour of all other Christian Bishops and Churches and will have no Communion with any but such as shall submit to her Supremacy this is a Schismatical Church For without any just ground she withdraws her self from her Sister-Churches and gives them just cause to renounce communion with her And this is the Case of the Romish Church who makes this proud claim and hath thereby divided her self from all other Churches that will not submit to her which they who do are themselves partakers with her in Schism whilst they set up a false head of the Church without any good warrant from Scripture Reason or Antiquity 2. When a particular Church on account of this unjust claim of Supremacy shall draw away the Members of other particular Churches perswading them to separate from their own Bishops and Pastors and to entertain such as she sets over them she is in this also plainly Schismatical as making horrid rents and divisions in neighbouring Churches which else might have lived in peace and union And those Members who are thus seduced and drawn away are also guilty of Schism in leaving their own proper Pastors to follow Usurpers and Intruders And this also is the case of the Romish Church and its adherents at this day 3. If any Church shall impose unlawful conditions upon her Members so that they cannot live in Communion with her without being guilty of wilfull sin then is that Church it self to be pronounced Schismatical and not those Members who for so good reason withdraw
our Church both formerly and very lately Only pray consider what an unreasonable thing it is for any to pretend that they have as good ground to separate from our Church as our Church it self had to separate from Rome Surely there is a very plain and vast difference in the case since as I have often told you the Church of Rome has nothing to do with us in England and she also imposed things unlawful as conditions of Communion Neither of which can be justly pleaded by our Separatists For I hope the authority of our Church and State extends to those of our own Nation and I reckon that our obedience in this case is bound upon us by the express commands of God himself which enjoyns us to be subject to the higher Powers to Kings and all in authority under them to obey them that have the Spiritual rule over us and watch for our souls to have respect to the very custom of the Church wherein we live to consult for the peace of it and to avoid all factions and divisions By such precepts I reckon we are obliged to submit to lawful authority requiring of us nothing but what is lawful And nothing else doth our Church require for there is nothing in her Prayers or Sacraments contrary to the Word of God This holy Word neither directly or by any good consequence forbids forms of Prayer or kneeling at the Communion which is all that the people are concerned in for as to the Cross and Surplice they belong to the Minister Now one would wonder how ever any man should fancy that a Prayer becomes unlawful by my knowing it beforehand and having often used it one would think this should rather recommend it Or why should it seem unlawful to kneel in reverence to God when I receive from him such great blessings as are represented and bestow'd in the Lords-Supper and am praying that I may effectually partake of them Are these things to be compared with what the Church of Rome requires of its members Is a form of Prayer to the true God like worshipping an Image or praying to an Angel or Saint which in other words is but to ask whether saying the Lords-prayer be as much a fault as praying to the Virgin Mary Is our kneeling to God at the Communion like adoring the Host which our Church expresly declared her abhorrence of as gross Idolatry But besides all this it cannot so fitly be said that our Church separated from the Church of Rome to which she ow'd no obedience but rather that she only Reformed her self from such errors and corruptions as the Romish Church was infected with and had spread the infection amongst her neighbours But Papists properly were the Separatists who refused to hold communion with our Church after it was Reformed though this Reformation was wrought in a regular manner and by just authority as I have before shewn And yet after all shall this our Church be stiled Popish when those holy men who were chief Reformers of it and who composed and used those Prayers which are objected against laid down their lives many of them for a testimony against Popery Yea and all other Reformed Churches have profest their great honour for our Church their communion with it and have as occasion has been offered declared against those who separate from it yea the most learned and judicious Nonconformists themselves have heretofore with great zeal preach'd and written against such separation and some of them more lately So that they who separate from us and set up Churches of their own gathering in opposition to those established by Law seem to have espoused a very desperate cause which has neither Scripture Reason nor good authority to defend it Strange that the Church of England which hath generally been accounted the glory and bulwark of the Reformation the envy and vexation of the Papist that yet she her self should be deserted and condemned by those who come out of her own bowels as a Popish Church O that there were many more such Popish Churches in the world Or rather O that all Christian Churches were so thoroughly Reformed from Popery In how happy a state would Christendom then be Wherefore again let me beseech you as you have any regard to the peace and prosperity of Church and State and to the interest of Religion amongst us see that you vehemently abhor all thoughts of Separation utterly reject all temptations to it For Religions sake I say for it 's too too apparent how much this suffers by our divisions as well as the publick weal whilst we are broken into parties and factions it threatens ruin to the Kingdom thus divided against it self yea and to the Kingdom of God also that is amongst us for this consists in righteousness and peace and that joy in the Holy Ghost which flows from charity and concord But where there is strife and envy there will be confusion and disorder and every evil work censures and slanders hatred and malice sedition and rebellion biting and devouring each other till at length without the infinite mercy of God we shall be consumed one of another or by a common enemy Wherefore I will add If you have any zeal against Popery see that you live in strict communion with the Church of England as now by Law established For nothing can be more directly framed in opposition to Popery than the whole constitution of our Church and should this be broken to pieces to what shall we crumble whither shall we run who can tell us nay who cannot tell what in all likelihood will be the event If in a besieged City there be several factions that in fury against each other break down their own walls and throw open their Gates are they not like to fall into the hands of their enemies who are watching for such an advantage whatever abhorrence our Dissenters have for Popery they cannot do a thing more pleasing to the Papist or more serviceable to his cause than to reproach the Church of England as Popish and set up themselves as a party against it By this means they give their assistance for the weakning and destroying of that Church which the Papist on the other hand hath so long been endeavouring to undermine and subvert by whose overthrow though the Papist might be exalted yet themselves most probably and most justly too would be crushed in pieces by its ruins But I fear I have tired you L. So far from it that I am greatly pleased with this your serious and earnest advice which may the better secure me against all temptations to separation if hereafter I should meet with them But I hope through the grace of God I shall always live so mindful of my duty to yield obedience to my Rulers in all things lawful and to do my utmost for preservation of the peace both of Church and State that I shall never be drawn into any separating party or faction which oft occasions
much disturbance to both Moreover I thank God I am so fully convinced not only of the lawfulness and duty but of the great and unspeakable advantage of living in communion with the Church of England that I feel not in my self the least inclination to depart from it For here we have the Holy Scriptures the food of our souls freely allow'd us and daily read amongst us very frequently they are explain'd to us and our duty from them inforced upon us in useful practical Sermons Our prayers I am satisfied are holy and good such that if it be not our own faults we may use them with much devotion The Holy Sacraments are here administred according to our Saviours own appointment so far as he hath exprest it And as to any Ceremonies or circumstances of Worship established by the prudence and authority of the Church I know nothing but what is very innocent and lawful very grave and decent agreeable to the solemnity of Divine Worship So that I am ready to say with St. Peter Lord whither shall we go since here we have the words of eternal life here we have the way to it plainly discovered and the means for attaining it plentifully afforded T. I am very glad to hear you discourse so honestly and judiciously and I pray God keep you ever in this good mind and grant that you and all other Christians may make a right use of all those means and advantages which are here afforded in order to their Salvation To which purpose before I dismiss you give me leave with all possible earnestness to beseech you not to satisfie your self with holding the true Religion and being of a true Church whose Doctrine and Worship is holy and good but see above all things that you your self be a truly religious and good man Else what shall it avail you to be a member of the best and purest Church in the world if you be an impure unholy person no true living member of Jesus Christ Though Loyalty to our Prince and Conformity to the Church are great duties yet these will not excuse our disobedience to any of Christs Laws who is the King of Kings and Head of the Church What though we are not Papists Hereticks or Schismaticks yet if we be wicked and loose livers we are in a worse condition than even Heathens and Infidels The inordinate love of money may damn a man as well as the worship of an Idol of Gold or Silver yea Covetousness is stiled Idolatry and so is voluptuousness too for the sensual man is said to make his belly his god To prefer the Creature before the Creator and the pleasures of sin before the joyes of Heaven may well be reckoned amongst the most vile and damnable errors and heresies He that lives in malice and envy that hates his brother and reviles oppresses or cheats him is a most factious and schismatical man for he makes a rent and schism in the body of Christ and is broken off from it by being destitute of that charity which is the bond of perfection by which fellow Christians are united one to another and all of them to Christ their Head Let it not suffice therefore that you live in an excellent Church where you have the Word Prayers and Sacraments according to Christs appointment but see that you diligently improve them for the promoting of good life this being the great end for which they were appointed Joyn constantly in the Prayers with great reverence and devotion and then live according to your Prayers and professions Firmly believe the Articles of your Creed and let your faith work by love Attend to the reading and preaching of Gods Word with care and seriousness and see that you be not an Hearer only but a Doer of the Word Often reflect upon your Baptismal Vow and be faithful to it in fighting against the world the flesh and the Devil most entirely devoting your self to the service of the blessed God and his Son Jesus in leading a godly righteous and sober life Frequently renew these Vows at the Holy Communion and there most thankfully commemorate the death of our blessed Saviour Who loved us and gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purifie to himself a peculiar people zealous of good works Let his love constrain you to obedience and let the remembrance of his Death and Resurrection mortifie all sin in you and quicken you to newness of life Let the terrors of the Lord perswade you to repentance and new obedience and let the hopes of eternal glory make you patient constant and chearful in well doing In a word see that you truly Fear God Honour and obey the King love your brethren and live in peace and charity with all men herein continually exercising your self to have a conscience void of offence toward God and man By such a truly religious and holy life you will adorn your profession bring honour to the Church gain upon its enemies or stop their mouths and even force them to acknowledg that God is in you of a truth that certainly this is a true Christian Church whose members are of such a truly Christian temper and behaviour By this means you will best be secured from all that lye in wait to deceive whether Papists or Separatists Your own in ward sense and relish of Divine things will assure you that true Religion consists not in bodily exercises how pompous costly and laborious soever Nor will you fansie the power of Godliness to be manifested by wrangling against such Forms and Ceremonies as are in themselves no hindrance to Spiritual Worship and Devotion but may be an help Yea by this means you will certainly obtain eternal happiness which can no other way be secured For being of the true Church will never save him that is not a true Christian which no wicked man is nor will right opinions make amends for bad manners Whereas he that heartily and honestly endeavours in all things to know and do the will of God shall either be preserved from error or from being much hurt by it For those mistakes which neither proceed from a vicious temper of mind nor lead to any evil practice in a mans life are not like to be very hurtful to himself or to others To conclude then Let your conversation in all respects be such as becomes the Gospel of Christ and be stedfast unmovable always abounding in the work of the Lord being assured that your labour shall not be in vain in the Lord. L. I do again and again return you most hearty thanks for all the good counsel you have given me and do sincerely resolve by Gods help to follow it for which purpose I beg the assistance of your prayers T. That I do faithfully promise you and do also desire yours that I my self may observe the directions I have given and not contradict them by an evil example And God grant that all those every where who take Christs name into their mouths may depart from all iniquity And may the Holy Spirit of Truth lead us all into and keep us in those ways of truth and peace and serious holiness which may bring honour to God and to our Religion and procure us true comfort here and eternal glory hereafter through the mercies of God in Jesus Christ to whose guidance I commit you and bid you heartily farewell L. God Almighty hear your Prayers bless your Instructions and plenteously reward you for all your kindness and pains and grant us an happy meeting in that blessed world above where we shall never part more Farewell Dear Sir FINIS