a conjunction the ends of Church society cannot be had which are solemn worship and mutual Edification Ans What not without a conjunction with the catholick visible Church certainly meetings for solemn worship and mutuall Edification are not terms wherein Christians hold communion with the catholick visible Church for they are proper only to particular worshiping congregations I wonder in what Assemblies do the Christians in England and the Christians in Prestor Johns country meet for solemn worship and mutual Edification I know he thinks the matter if salved by telling us that Christians meeting in any congregation in England for worship and mutual Edification do thereby hold externall communion in those things with the whole Church throughout the world But I conceive this will not serve his turn without the could equally imagine how a man by holding communion with the City of London might be said thereby to hold a civil external communion with all mankind which I think is so wild a conceit as no man yet ever asserted for he must remember he is speaking of such an external communion that is proper to a politick visible Body to the constituting of which kind of communion it is not enough to have the same laws the same customes no nor the same kind of solemn meetings for worship to speak all visible Christians to be of the same external politick communion for suppose in France they had the same laws and customs the same kind of officers as Constables Justices Parliament and a King as we have in England and all under the Government of the very same invisible God it doth not follow so long as there is no dependance of these Kingdomes each on the other that therefore the people of England are of the same external politick communion with those in France Yea further though these two Kingdoms may mutually in times of peace advise with each other for their mutual profits and in case of differences betwixt them they may forbid trading or converse with each other which is a kind of civil excommunication yet for all this they may not be said to be of the same external civil politick communion and why because their respective Magistrates are independent and have no jurisdiction over each other Upon the very same ground I deny any such thing as an external Politick Communion betwixt the Members of the Catholick Church for though they have all the same Laws the same Sacraments the same kind of solemn meetings for Worship and all under the same kind of visible Governours and all this under the same invisible Head the Lord Jesus though so far as they can and the distances of places will admit they may advise with each other for their mutual good and in case that any prove Hereticks they may so far as may be disown or refuse Communion as in the instances before said yet all this no more proves them to be of the same external Politick communion than the like agreements might speak the Kingdom of France and that of England of the same politick civil communion and why but because Christ hath left no visible politick Head to have jurisdiction over the rest If you say this notion speaks a good word for the Headship of the Pope I Answer no such matter for there is no need of such a Head nor of any such external Politick Communion in the Church no more than in the World God hath well enough Governed the World without any such Universal civil Monarch and doth as well govern the Church without any such Universal visible Head And now let us see what of force then is in his second reason which is this such a conjunction in external Communion with he Catholick visible Church is necessary else we cannot possibly partake of the priviledges that Christ hath made over to this his Church as the Remission of Sins and the Graces of the Holy Spirit I Answer He says that Christ hath made over the priviledges of pardon of sin and the Graces of his Spirit to the Church primarily and that before any particular person can partake of pardon of Sin and the Graces of the Spirit he must joyn with the Church in external Communion But how absurd is all this by Church he here means the Catholick visible Church but I wonder how it can be truly said that pardon of sin or the Graces of the Spirit can be said to be made over to the visible Church as priviledges when as it is very certain that Christ never made over such priviledges to the Church as visible But I perceive he understands it ministerially that is to say that a man is pardoned or partake of the Graces of the Spirit but by the Ministry of the Church well let this be granted what will thence follow I am sure that will not follow which you say doth follow that therefore we must first be made Members of the Church before we can be pardoned or sanctifyed by the Spirit for suppose the Church meets for solemn worship and the minister is Preaching and there comes in one or more Infidels for curiosity to see and hear I hope you will not say that these Infidels because they are in the same place with the Church that therefore they are joyned as Members with the Church suppose now these Infidels are by the Sermon convinced and perfectly converted to a true Faith in Jesus Christ I now demand These men that thus are converted do they believe without or with the Grace of the Spirit again so soon as they have believed are they pardoned or are they not I say they could not have believed without the Grace of the Spirit and that so soon as they truly believed they were pardoned and you dare not I think say the contrary Now I pray you is not this Grace of the Spirit and pardoning of sin Communicated before these men were joyned to the Church as visible Members How then can you say that men are obliged to joyn with the Church as Members else they have neither Grace nor pardon the very Truth is the primary reason of Christs institution of visible Church Membership was not for the giving of the first Grace of the Spirit or giving pardon but it was appointed as a means of conveying further degrees of Grace and clearer assurance of pardon visible Church Membership doth suppose the Grace of conversion in the adult and pardon but doth not give or Communicate it I had now done with his first Proposition but that for two inferences he draws from a consideration of the whole as first saith he therefore their position is untrue who maintain that our obligation to Church Communion ariseth from a voluntary admission of our selves into some particular congregation But I say notwithstanding all he hath said that position may be true for he hath been all this while speaking of the Universal visible Church But they that hold that position maintain it only with respect to a particular Church
Member of such a Church for if it be true that Peter may be a man without being incorporated into any civil Society then it must be false to say that Peter upon the very account of his being a man must be a member of such a Society But let us now come to examine the other part of the Proposition and his sence of it which is what may be there meant by the Church of Christ of which he saith every Christian upon the very account of his being so is a member and that he is bound to joyn with it in external Communion By Church as may be gathered out of his explication of this Proposition he understands a Society of particular Persons gathered out of mankind and formed into a Body Politick of which Christ is the Head This I confesse is somewhat but not sufficient to give us his determinate sence thereof for as he hath here described it for ought we know he may mean only an internal invisible Church which is an internal invisible body Politick of which the invisible Christ is Head and those that are internally united to him by a true and living Faith are invisible Members This certainly is an invisible Church for not only the Head is invisible as to us but so likewise are the Members considered as true Believers for no man can see the Truth of anothers Faith clearly and certainly But methinks he should not take Church in this sence because first he speaks of a Church wherewith every Christian is bound to seek external Communion but no external Communion can be had with a Church considered as invisible And secondly because he speaks of Communion with such a Church where Communion is hazardous as is implyed by his supposition if it can be had now certainly there is no hazard in obtaining an internal Communion with Christ the Head and all true Believers for that may always be had when an external Communion cannot But if he by Church means the Catholick visible Church consisting of all individual professors of the Christian Doctrine thoroughout the world united to Christ their Head which is most likely to be his meaning then the sence of the Proposition is this 3. That Christ the invisible Head in Heaven being joyned to his invisible Professors on Earth make up a Body Politick whether he will call this Body Politick visible or invisible I know not but sure I am the Head thereof which is the more principal part in invisible But this he saith that it is the Duty of every particular Christian to joyn with this Church in external Communion if it may be had To this I say it is well he puts in if it may be had for another reason besides what he imagined when he inserted that clause and that is because no such Communion external can be had with such a body Politick as he calls it First Because it is very improper to say that any one is obliged to hold an external Communion with a Politick body where no Head is owned but what is invisible for since the principal and essential Member of a body Politick is the Head and that no external Communion can be had therewith as invisible it cannot be truely said that we may have or are bound to seek such an Eternal Communion therewith as a body politick I wonder who ever talkt at that rate as to say every man as a Creature was bound to seek an external Communion with mankind as making up a body Politick under the invisible God the Creator and supream Governour Secondly I say no such external Communion can be had because of the vast numbers of professing Christians scattered at such great distances upon the face of the Earth that no such Communion can possibly be obtained so that it is as possible to conceive how an external Communion may be had by every individual man with all mankind as how it may be had by every Christian with the whole body of Christians throughout the World This is so evident that he cannot but confess so much pag. 14. we cannot saith he Communicate with the Catholick Church but by Communicating with some part of it But I say by Communicating with some part of it we do not therefore Communicate externally with the whole for who ever said that a man by holding a Communion with one City or Corporation that thereby he held an external Politick Communion with all mankind and what is it that you can say for the one but I can say much alike for the other Do you say but all Christians are united under one Head the Lord Christ so say I are all mankind united under one God who is their Head and Governour Do you say all Christians Communicate in some external priviledges so say I do all mankind they are enlightned by the same Sun breath in the same air feed on the Fruits of the same Earth Do you say but they have not the same Laws as Christians have which are necessary to unite them in one body Politick I answer but if all mankind had the very same Laws yet if the publication and execution of those Laws were in different Kings hands that had jurisdiction over each other this were not enough to speak them all of one external Politick Communion no more do the same Laws amongst Christians since the publication and execution thereof is in the hands of different visible Church Governours that have no jurisdiction over each other speak any external Politick Communion among all Christians Thus have I shewn of what words and phrases of an uncertain and undetermin'd sence the parts of the Proposition consist and how hard it is to give any tollerable sound sence of the whole we shall now further enquire of the interpretation given whether it can afford any further light to understand it better For the clearing of this he saith you may be pleased to consider that the primary design and intention of our Saviour in his undertaking for us was not to save particular Persons without respect to a Society but to gather to himself a Church in the form of a Body Politick of which himself is the Head and particular Christians the Members and in this method through obedience to his Laws and Government to bring men to Salvation If I understand the force of these words with respect to the Proposition it is this that you would prove that every Christian upon the very account of his being so must needs be a Member of the Church because Christ intended not to save particular Christians but under the consideration of being Members of the Church I confess if this was as true as I suspect it to be false there would be weight in what is said But let it be tryed You say that Christ primarily designed to save his Church and but secondarily individual Christians as incorporated in this Church I pray tell me do you take Church here as you do in the Proposition certainly you ought
so to do why else do you call this a clearing of that now it is evident you take Church in the Proposition for the Catholick visible Church existing in the World with whom you say an external Communion is to be sought as hath been before shew'd But how absurd is what you say if you take Church in this sence For First you hereby say that Christ did primarily design to save this present existing Catholick Church what can be more absurd did not Christ think you as primarily design all those parts of his Church that in their past Generations did once exist here on Earth and doth not he alike design to save that part that is yet to be born Again you herein say that Christ primarily designed to save the Catholick visible Church which is evidently false for Christ never designed to save his visible Catholick Church much lesse considered as visible and therefore cannot be said Primarily to design Their Salvation for Christs design was to save only a part of his visible Church and that part not considered as visible but as invisibly united to himself by a livving Faith Yet again if the quite contrary be true viz. That Christ first designed the Salvation of particular Christians and but in a secondary sence the Church that is made up of them then what you say must needs be false viz. that Christ designed Salvation to the Church primarily and to particular Members secondarily as in Union with the Church The former of which I affect for these reasons First Because all individual sincere Christians have all qualifications that are absolutely necessary to Salvation antecedently to a visible Church state as actual Faith and Repentance if they be adult or the promise of the Covenant upon their Parents Faith if they be Infants which are Foundations of and give Title to a visible Church State Therefore our Saviour primarily designed to save them as such and as for his designing such to be admitted into a visible Church State by Baptism it was but to Seal that Salvation to them and to promote and carry on that Salvation that was antecedently secured to them by the Covenant upon their Repentance and Faith in the Lord Jesus the very Truth is Christ did not intend at all to save men as visible Church Members but only as true Believers for the fundamental saving Doctrine of the Gospel doth not run thus he that is a Member of the visible Church shall be saved but he that Believeth shall be saved and he that Believeth not shall be damned If it be objected But doth not the Apostle Peter Preach not only Repentance but likewise Baptism as necessary to Remission of sins and consequently to Salvation when he says Repent and be Baptized every one of you for the Remission of sins And is not Baptisme an Ordinance of admission into a visible Church State Acts 2.30 I answ they are both indeed commanded but not as equally necessary for Repentance gives the fundamental title to remission Baptisme doth only give the Seal the former is so necessary that without it no remission can be obtained the other is but for the more comfortable assurance of that priviledge to the penitent but not absolutely necessary as the other and this our Saviour most clearly intimates when he saith Mark 16.16 He that Believeth and is Baptized shall be saved but he that Believeth not shall be damned Men shall be damned meerly upon the account of their unbelief and not meerly for want of Baptism provided they have Faith And yet Baptism hath its great use as I have acknowledged but as I said not absolutely necessary for if men only Believe and never have an opportunity of being Baptized and so of being admitted into a visible Church state thereby then Salvation is not at all hazarded My next reason is this It cannot be true that Christ only designed to save particular Christians as Members of the visible Church because it were impossible then that any Christians that were not visible Church Members should be saved for if it must fare with particular Christians with respect to this body Politick as he is pleased to call it the Church as it doth with the Members of the natural Body where it is confest that God by his Providence only intends to give life to each Member and likewise the continuance of Life as united together in one body it will certainly follows that if any Member of the Church be separated from the Church it must necessarily perish as if a hand or a foot were separated from the natural body it doth certainly perish But by his leave this is very false as to particular Christians with respect to the Church for first all Christians do not spring out of the Church as the Members of the natural body do out of that body for when Infidels belive they spring out of the World or Masse of mankind and not out of the Church and by believing are first united to Christ and then as Saul converted they essay to joyn themselves to the Church so that first they are internal members of a Church or are fit matter to be made members of and afterwards making a profession of Faith are made formal Members of a visible Church which is solemnized by Baptisme Secondly and if it so happen that by unjust excommunication any true Christian be cut off from the visible Church yet it keeps its Life as no Member in a natural body can do The conclusion is this that if Christians are in a salvable state before Union to a visible Church and if they may be in a salvable state when wrongfully cut off by Excommunication then it cannot be true that Christ did but in a secondary way intend the Salvation of particular Christians viz. as united to a Church My third and last reason is this I say Christ did not primarily design to save his Church and but secondarily particular Members as he asserts which I thus prove That respect which individual men have to civil Society as Kingdomes or Republicks that respect have particular Christians to the visible Church of Christ according to his own notion of a Church which he considers as a body Politick Now I say God in making the World did not primarily design Kingdomes and Commonwealths but he primarily designed the giving of particular men their existences and secondarily Kingdoms and Republicks for their better accommodation Men were not made for Kingdoms but Kingdoms for Men. Therefore so did Christ he first designed the putting of particular men into a State of Salvation by giving to them Faith and Repentance and Remission of sins and then designed as a consequent thereof to collect them into a Society or Societies under Governours of his appointment to be ruled by Laws of his own Ordination for the building them up in their Faith and comforts to his Glory so that this Society or Societies of Church or Churches with the Laws and Ordinances thereto
belonging are but for the sakes and subordinated to the welfare of particular Christians and therefore it is necessary that Christ should first intend the welfare or Salvation of particulars before the meer associating them into Church or Churches under government which is but a means to that great end of saving particulars For certainly that which is more excellent in the Nature of things is primarily designed by every rational Agent before that which is lesse excellent so certainly is the restauration of particular Persons in giving them renewed Natures Remission of sins and a Title to Salvation before that meer order that ought to be amongst them for their security and comfort which is acquired by associations or Church Government If it yet be not clear give me leave to illustrate this matter yet further by this similitude Let us consider Christ as the general of an Army who is by the Apostle called the Captain of our Salvation and the Church under him as an Army under several Officers for their better Order and Government and all particular Christians as so many particular Souldiers Now let us consider the several ends which a general hath in gathering his Souldiers into an Army and which end is more principally intended and which end lesse principally or subordinately intended His first end is to subdue his Enemies to the Praise of his Justice and Valour the next end intended is the preservation of his Souldiers without which the more principal end cannot be obtained and that which is an end subordinate to both these is the keeping his Souldiers in Union and Order under their several Officers for without this Union and Order the particular Souldiers cannot so well be preserved so that here it is evident that the uniting of his Men and keeping them under Discipline is subordinately intended for the preservation of particulars In like manner God in Christ designing to save sinners First he intends the Praise of his Glorious Grace Secondly he intends the Salvation of particular sinners by Regenerating and pardoning of them And lastly he intends the Collection of them into a body or bodies under Discipline for their better safety and security this last is not principally or lesse principally but that which is subordinately intended to both the other The conclusion that ariseth hence is this that this Author is much mistaken when he saith that Christ did primarily intend the Salvation of his Church and secondarily the Salvation of particular Christians cujus contrarium verum est as I have shewed We shall now further consider what he hath said for the confirmation of this his nation concerning Christs primary intention to save his Church c. This saith he is no more than what is the sence and Language of the Holy Scriptures wherein whatever Christ is said to have done and suffered for mankind he is said to have done for them not as scattered individuals but as incorporated into a Church Thus Christ sav'd the Church Eph. 5.25 Act. 20.25 Eph. 5.23 and gave himself for it Christ Redeemed the Church with his own precious Blood Christ is the Saviour of his Body The plain consequence from hence is saith he that every person so far as he is a Christian so far he is a Member of the Church and by virtue of that Relation to the Church it is that he hath any Relation to Christ or any Title to the Priviledges of the Gospel I answer it is a wonder to me to see the Authour otherwise a Person of good abilities so strangely misled into the confidence of a conclusion that is raised upon such palpable mistaken principals He says that what ever Christ hath done and suffered for mankind he hath done it for them not as scattered individuals but as incorporated into a Church I perceive by this that the Authour is not for Universal Redemption as some of his brethren are for I cannot see how Christ dying for all is consistent with Christ's dying for men considered as incorporated into his Church for it is certain that the greatest number of individuals that hath been or are in the World were or are not like to be so incorporated Yet further certainly the Author doth run himself and his Reader into much confusion for want of a Regular stating of the several Aspects which Christs sufferings have to mankind as they fall under divers considerations As first if mankind be considered as lapsed into a state of sin and death so they are said to be Enemies to God and Righteousness Dead in Trespasses and sins without God without hope I hope the Author doth not take men so considered as in any Church state and yet it is certain that according to Scriptures Christs suffering was with Relation to men as such Rom. 5.8 God commendeth his Love towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us So Col. 1.21 And you that were sometime alienated and Enemies in your mind by wicked works yet now hath he reconciled in the Body of his Flesh through Death In these Texts it 's evident that Christ's death respected men as incoporated in the corrupt Masse of mankind and not as incorporated into a Church Secondly Christs sufferings respects men considered as such that de futuro were to partake of the benefits of Christ's Death which benefits are either of an absolute or of a Relative and Politick Consideration Those that are absolute are such as the changing of mens Natures Remission of Sins Faith in Christ Repentance from dead Work these are all given and bestowed on en with respect to what Christ did and suffered for them Here men are to be considered absolutely as individual Christians and not as any members of a Society or a Church for I can as any man else may easily consider a man as a Believer as a Penitent as in favour with God without considering him under any Politick Relations as we may conceive of men as wise just and innocent without conceiving them as Citizens or Subjects There are other benefits that are likewise the purchase of Christs death and they are of a relative and Politick consideration and here it is that the Communion of the Saints or church Fellow-ship hath its place which Communion is either internal and this is a priviledge peculiar only to that Church of Christ which every Member is considered as really and sincerely united to Christ by a true Faith and to each other in a love unfeigned or external which properly belongs to Christians co-united together in an external profession of Faith in associating for publick worship and submitting to Christs Discipline Now of all these benefits some are more principall some less some are of absolute necessity to Salvation others not Those that are of a more principal consideration and of absolute necessity to Salvation are such that belong to Christians as individuals such as Faith and Repentance Remission of sins and such like which they have by virtue of Union
religious Customes and Usages contrary to these General rules c. Thus having given you our true sence and meaning of unscriptural Ceremonies now I answer to your dilemma Either you say these things thus imposed are in themselves lawfull or unlawfull I answer Your argument as you form it is trivial and not to the purpose for it speaks not to the Question under Consideration for the Question is not about the nature of the things imposed taken Absolutely but about the Religious use of those things in the worship and service of God Thus then your argument ought to proceed Either the religious use of these things imposed in the Worship and Service of God is lawfull or unlawfull I answer Now directly the Religious use of them is unlawfull and this antecedently to the imposing of them and therefore the imposing of them cannot make them lawfull Here had been a fit place for you to have shewn your strength if you had any in Convincing us that the Religious use of these things in Gods Worship is Lawfull antecedently to the Imposition But we have not a word hereof and therefore since I find no more opposition therein I might justly dismiss this first thing without any further Reply Yet if any shall ask for what reason is it that we say that such a use of them is unlawfull I answer our reasons are ready and they are such that do at least Convince our Consciences so far as to doubt and really suspect their use to be unlawful Which is sufficient to make their imposition a warrantable ground of withdrawing though the Evidence thereof be not so great as to Convince our Gainsayers no nor possibly to demonstrate fully the unlawfulness thereof to our own Consciences as hath been already proved If I be yet urged to shew our reasons of this our perswasion or supposition Methinks it were reason enough if I onely told such that these things imposed are only the productions of a humane spirit and are beholding for their Continuance in being to the Traditions of men and so hold in no respect of Christ the head which is sufficient not only in my opinion but in the judgment of the Apostle Paul to give members of Churches Caution against the reception of them Col. 2.8 Beware lest any man make a prey of you through Philosophy and vain deceit after the Traditions of men after the Rudiments of the World and not after Christ Whoever pleaseth to see an excellent paraphrase upon this verse let him read it in Mr. John Dale in his exposition on this Epistle which hath the Imprimatur Tho. Tomkins Ex Aed Lambeth and therefore I hope the testimony of this excellent person may obtain some repute his words are these The Scriptures calls those doctrines Traditions of men which have men only for their Authors which come from men and not form God these with the errours of Philosophy of which the Apostle speaks immediately before may bear the same name since they both flow'd from the spirit of men and had no other source but this imagination A little after he saith Whence it doth appear that no productions of an humane spirit are receivable in Evangelicall Religion neither those that are supposed by some pretended reasons nor those that are sounded upon Use and Antiquity they are all of them nothing but solly and vanity in the sight of God with what Colour soever they be painted over And though men boast of their utility they are extreamly hurtfull as pestering Consciences and busying them about things which God hath not ordained and turning them aside from his pure service to matters of nought Accordingly you see that our Lord Jesus Christ rejects and roughly thrusts away all the Traditions of the Pharisees how much esteemed soever they were for their Antiquity and pretended Use reproaching them that by holding fast those Traditions of Men they did let loose the Commandements of God Applying to them those words of the Lord in Isaiah In vain do they Honour me teaching for doctrines the Traditions of men As indeed it 's an unsufferable presumption that men should attempt to prescribe the form of Gods service especially after the declaration which himself hath vouchsafed to make of his holy will nor is there one among men that would indure his servant should treat him in that manner and instead of obeying his Orders and causing others to dispatch them fall a Philosophising in his house and giving his Family a new Rule to observe as if he were wiser than his Master I know well the Authors of these Traditions and those that follow them are not without fine reasons to palliate their temerity but it is Evident that they do the very same for Substance Neither is it to be doubted but a Servant that should be culpable of such a vanity would alledge likewise his motive and designes to any that would give them audience But Common sense dictateth to the meanest capacities that such undertaking Spirits merit not so much as to be heard especially where God is concerned in Comparison of whom they with all their sufficiency are but poor worms of the Earth Hold we firm therefore this Foundation of the Apostle that the Traditions of men ought to have no place in Religion it concerns me not to inform my self of their age whether they be the Traditions of Men Antient or Modern it sufficeth that I know they are Traditions of men having the Apostles advertisement we should not be moved with any reason or splendor or antiquity they may come cloathed with if you would have me receive them shew me that they are prescriptions of Gods institutions of his Christ Doctrines of his Scriptures without this However specious you make them appear to me I shall never believe it it is but to make a prey of me and your diligence shall have no effect but the making me suspect them so much the more Thus far you have had the Judgement of as great Divines as the Church in this last age hath produced and who ever thinks there is not reason enough in this discourse to give Foundation sufficient to tender Consciences at least to suspect if not to be confident of the unlawfulness of the Religious use of these things in the service of God I know not what such will yeild to be sufficient nor would I wish such any greater punishment for their being otherwise minded than that they were obliged to give a more rational account of this verse of the Apostle and likewise to enervate the force of this Authors reason here produced In confesse such is the vanity of mans mind that whilst he either not at all or very negligently hath regard to that Jealousie that God hath over his Worship as is frequently taken notice of in Scriptures is apt to think of these fictitious Ceremonies of Worship as very indifferent and harmless matters for who could of a sudden think there is any good ground of making such
the Doctrines of the Church of England as that they dare deride some sober Christians under the notion of being acquainted with the Person of Christ or that dare Teach there is no difference betwixt Grace and Morality or that there is no special Grace exerted in the conversion of a sinner or that the Holy Ghost is of no further use in the Conversion of men than as he first inspired those that delivered the Doctrine of Christianity in Scriptures and inabled such to confirm the Truth of it with Miracles so that men are left in the working out of their Salvation to their Bibles and the use of their natural Faculties exclusive of any other operation of the Spirit either to their illumination or sanctification I say if the People withdraw from such Teachers or Congregations where such Doctrines are owned for securing their Faith or Salvation there so doing is justifiable because the law-of self preservation is to be regarded before any positive law of visible Church Union and I hope there is no true Son of the Church that hath any zeal for the purity of their Church Doctrine will be my adversary herein and thus much shall suffice to be said concerning your Doctrines and of the lawfulness of separating from some of the particular Congregations in case the Teachers do grossely pervert Some of the weighty Doctrines of your own Church We shall in the next place consider what you have here offered as to corrupt practices which you say is no just ground if only tollerated but not imposed of withdrawing especially if they be no worse than are found in the Church of England I Answer first if all the corrupt practices in your Church were only tollerated but not imposed you would have much more reason of your side against us than you have because several things which you enjoyn to be practised we in our Consciences believe to be unlawful and we cannot must not have Communion with you except we comply therein so that should it be yielded that unimposed corruption in a Church is no just ground of separation yet is it of no force against us because some of these we conceive to be corruptions are imposed But to come close to the case as it stands related to this Proposition suppose no imposition of any of those things that are in controversie between us which is the supposition in the Proposition what will follow but first that all the Ministers of Christ in England would be capable of places for they are Impositions that are the principal reasons why they are kept out Secondly it would follow that those that are for the use of the Liturgy and Ceremonies and a promiscuous Communion withall that had but the name of Christians in the Sacraments might therein act according as they saw fit and as for other Ministers they might freely exercise their Ministry without Liturgy or Ceremonies and might exercise Discipline toward their rerespective Members according to Christ's direction in the case The question now arising can be only this whether it would be lawful for a Member of that Congregation where the Liturgy and Ceremonies are in use and Discipline neglected that conceived these things to be corruptions to separate and joyn with another free from these conceived corruptions I say he might first because were ther is no imposition ther can be no law of Superiors binding him to a Communion with such a conceived corrupt Church so that your great reason ordinarily produced in this case would be of no force here Secondly because that it is much safer for his soul to be joyned to a pure Church than a corrupt and self preservation is founded on a law Superior to that of visible Church-Union to this or that particular Church David might eat of the Shew-Bread to save his life which had not been lawful if positive laws were not to give place to natural Thus have I examined the third position both generally and as it particularly respecteth our present differences and shewn both its unsoundness in the former and impertinency as to the latter I have onely one word to say to the Reason given upon which the supposed Truth thereof is founded and so shall dismisse it The reason why he says that Errors in a Church as to matter of Doctrine and corruptions as to matter of practice if but suffered and not imposed is on just ground for separation because these things are not sins in us so long as we do not joyn with the Church therein I Answer if he mean that other mens Errors or Corruptions are not properly or formally mine by being in their Company and joyned with them in things lawful I grant it But yet it follows not that therefore I may joyn with them if I can otherways help it a man may buy and sell and eat and drink with Fornicators or other unclean and Debauched Creatures if he cannot trade and get provision for his body but in their Company But certainly if a Trade might be as well managed with sober men and that Meat may be had in better Company it would be sinful then to Trade and Eat with such and why because the law of self preservation warranteth me in the former but not in the latter I may not neglect the preservation of my life by eating nor geting a lively hood by trading which is ordinarily necessary to the preservation of my life present being A meer occasion of hardning others in sin or scandalizing weak Brethren but when no such necessity doth lye on me then the preventing of a scandal or giving occasion to the hardning others in the their sin and the safety of my self from their contagion are reasons of force to bind me from such Societies In like manner if the Word of God could be no where heard or Communion in Sacraments no where enjoyed but only in such Churches that were so corrupt as yours is conceived to be it might be Lawfull yea and a Duty to joyn with you so far as possibly Christians could without sin But if other Churches may be had which are regular according to Gods law and only irregular according to mans then it is a Duty to withdraw to prevent scandals and hardning a Church in its Corruptions together with the preservation of themselves from the danger of being infected with those Corruption which are reasons of another nature than that only one which you give for though as I said by joying with such I make not their sins formally mine yet I sin therein upon other accounts now named which may justifie my withdrawing I come now to his fourth which is this That the enjoying of a more profitable Ministry or living under a more pure Discipline in an other Church is no just Cause of forsaking the Communion of that whereof we are members Because we are not to commit the least Crime for the attaining of the greatest good in the World now it is a Crime to for sake