Faith Religion and Sacraments instituted by Christ In which words let it bee no offence to say that hee deales as boatmen vse to doe when they looke one way row another for whatsoever he talkes of the Catholique Church you shall finde presently that hee meanes the Romish Church a meere particular one though for the credit thereof he would faine yoake it together with the Church Catholique in the same description But see his ill lucke For while he goes about to describe them both in one he failes to describe either of them as he should For if the Catholique Church doth comprehend as hee saith the multitude of all true beleeuers even from righteous Abel as Augustine speaketh to the end of the world how can this agree to the Romish Church On the other side if it comprehend no more then such as are subiect to one visible head how can the name of Catholique in right belong vnto it So this description is like a shooe that will serue neither foote If wee should grant that the Romish faith in these daies were the true faith of Christ yet could not that make their Church to bee the Catholique Church but only a part thereof and that is the most that can bee said of it though it were farre better then it is but the Pope lookes higher then so Rome scornes to be ranckt in the order of particular Churches He must be the vniversall Bishop and she the vniversall Church of the World For if that should be denied what right hath either He or Shee to claime subiection of those who haue their severall dependance vpon other Bishops Therefore to make this good and to bring all fish into St Peters net there were some well-wishers to the Romish cause who not finding how two such disparates in nature as vniversall and particular Catholique and singular might possibly be joyned together in one subiect they found a meanes at last to joyne them both together in one word and hence it comes to passe that instead of Romana fides Romana Ecclesia which was wont to bee the common language among all Christians wee must call it henceforth Romano Catholicam fidem Romana Catholicam Ecclesiam or else they will complaine that wee allow them not their full stile Thus still it falls out that Portenta rerū gignunt portenta verborum And if it were not a new and strange doctrine it never needs to coine such new and strange words And yet as if Romana Ecclesia did not speake home enough to expresse their meaning or as if it were too large a terme and they durst not trust that more then Catholica or Apostolica Bellarmine de effect sacr l. 2. c. 25. to be sure to fit the shooe to the Popes foot restraines it to nunc Romana Ecclesia I know not what the spirit of giddinesse is if this bee not or why wee should not say of these men as it was said of the Arrians Habent annuas menstruas fides Ecclesias If the ancient faith of Rome were the same with the present what meanes nunc Romana if it were not how is the present faith Catholica For that onely is so quae est omnium temporum locorum The Councells of Lateran or Trent will not be guided by the Councells of Basil or Constance And therefore Cusanus speakes plainely and saies that there is fides temporum a faith that alters with the time and that the true sense of the Scripture is that which the present Church giues Non est mirum si praxis Ecclesiae vno tempore interpretetur scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi intellectus enim qui cum praxi concurrit est spiritus vivificans sequuntur ergo Scripturae Ecclesiam non è converso Epist 7. Bohem. The holy christian Catholike Church No absolute Monarchy is a visible Monarchie vnder one visible lawfull head I complained before that the Church of Rome being a meere Particular he made it all one to the Catholique Church of Christ Here I finde cause to complaine on the other side of his wrong done to the Catholique Church when he termes it a visible Monarchie vnder a visible Head which is the placing of a barre in her armes and makes her no better then the Romish or any other particular being of the younger house 1. When hee names the Church a Monarchie if he mean it in respect of Christ sole King and Monarch thereof I will not contend with him about the name or if hee meane it in regard of particular Churches we confesse that in as much as they are subiect to their severall Bishops their governement in that respect is a kinde of Monarchie though not an absolute Monarchie but such a one as is tempered with an Aristocrasie because Bishops either doe not or should not impose lawes vpon the Church but Ex communi Concilio Presbyterorum by the advice and with the consent of their Presbyterie A visible Monarchie Not visible If the Catholique Church were a naturall body and not a mysticall If it were some individuall and singular subiect and not a meere vniversall as the name of a Catholique imports Visibility might well bee an adiunct belonging vnto it Which otherwise I confesse I vnderstand not how it should and I belieue they that speake most of it vnderstand it as little if your friend haue ever seene the Catholique Church with his eye let him say whether it be Diaphanum or adiaphanum luminosum corpus or opacum bid him tell you of what colour and complexion it is And doe not thinke I iest in mouing such questions for in good earnest it must bee qualified thus for in some such sort if it be subiect to the eye of man I grant he hath seene some particular persons that belong vnto the Church and are members thereof and so haue I often but for the Church it selfe whose formality consisteth in a spirituall coniunction with Christ the head of the members themselues one with another this mysticall vnion I am sure he did never see therefore hee did never see the Church no not any particular Church to speake properly much lesse the Catholike church This is an article of faith and not an obiect of sense farre aboue the spheare of all optike learning it is an Article to bee believed not a thing to be descried by a paire of spectacles or any other prospectiue glasse if hee meane Video pro intelligo by the old Grammer rule let him and the rest speake so a Gods name and call it hereafter the intelligible Church that we may vnderstand them for then they shall begin to speake somewhat more like Protestants for otherwise while they call it the vniversall yet visible Church they interfeare at every word and speake pure non-sense The Pope not the head of the Church Vnder one lawfull visible head It had beene plaine dealing
and J will giue to thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind vpon earth it shall bee bound also in the heavens and whatsoever thou shalt loose in earth it shall be loosed also in the Heavens Math. 16. v. 18.19 And our Saviour said Simon Simon behold Satan hath required to haue thee for to sift as wheat But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not and thou being converted confirme thy Brothren Luk. 22. v. 31.32 Our Saviour Christ asking Peter if he loued him more then these said yea Lord thou knowest I loue thee whereupon Christ said to him twice feed my Lambes and the third time feede my Sheepe Ioh. 21. v. 15.16.17 That Saint Peter was chiefe of the Apostles and the first Bishop of Rome When all the holy Apostles are named S. Peter is the first Math. 10. vers 2. After the Apostles had visibly receiued the Holy Ghost S. Peter made the first Sermon thereof whereat 3000. persons were converted Act. 2. v. 41. With his word and power he killed Ananias and Saphira for their Sacriledge Act. 5. v. 5. Saiut Peter called the first Councell of the Apostles held at Ierusalem and first spake therein Act. 15. v. 7. Jt is affirmed by old writers and some moderne learned Protestants that S. Peter was 15. yeares Bishop of Rome and by the auncient Ecclesiasticall wryters that S. Peter and S. Paul were both of them martyred together in Rome vnder the Emperour Nero. Orig. apud Euseb Lib. 3. cap. 1. Eus Cap. 24. Lib. 2. Hist Eccliastic Tertul. de praesc c. 26. Aug. tract 123 in Ioh. Chrysost Beda in hunc locum S. Ambr. Serm. 66.68 St Maximus Statu faelix Ecclesia cui totam doctrinam Apostoli cum suo fanguine pro funderunt vbi Petrus passioni Dominicae adaequatur vbi Paulus Iohannis exitu Coronatur Tertul. de Praescrip cap. 36. That St Peters Successors Bishops of Rome haue exercised chiefe authority in the Church Militant ever since to this day After the Martyrdome of St Peter first Bishop of Rome 32. of the succeeding Bishops there were martyred for the faith of Christ Eusebius Pope Victor in the first 200. yeares excommunicated the Asian Bishops about the observation or keeping Easter day Pope Silvester 314. yeeres called the first Councell of Nice against the Arian hereste Pope Damasus 367. called the second generall Councell at Constantinople against Macedonius the heretique Pope Caelestine 414. called the third generall Councell at Ephesus against Nestorius the heretique Pope Leo 440. called the fourth generall Councell at Calcedon against the heretique Eutiches And likewise euer since to the last generall Councell of Trent the Bishops of Rome haue called them all as heresies and false Prophets did arise in the Church Jt is confessed by divers learned Protestants that the Roman Church was the true Mother Church which Christ our Saviour planted some for 300. yeares some for 400. yeares some for 600. yeares and some for 800 yeares after Christ which being true that it was once the true Church and also true that our Saviour Christ promised to bee with it to the consummation of the world and to send the spirit of Truth to abide with it for ever and that Hell gates should not preuaile against it and Christ saith Heaven and Earth shall passe but my words shall not passe How then can it be true that the Roman Church being once the true mother Church should fall so fouly from her first puritie as is by some too too boldly affirmed Jt is so necessary for every one to know and beliene the holy Catholique Church Militant that whosoever is not a sound member of that society either in act or desire cannot be saved as all those which were out of Noahs Arke were drowned And to end with a demonstration all the Patriarchall Episcopall Seas of the Apostles be extinguished and worne out many hundred yeares since by Heretiques and Jnfidels onely the Church of Rome the Seate of Saint Peter stands at this day most conspicuous according to the prayer and promise of Christ that his faith should not faile and that the gates of Hell should not prevaile against it Thus briefly is proued the beginning encreasing and continuing of the holy Christian Catholique Apostolique and Romane Church as also the promised continuall assistance of the Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth to remaine therewith alwaies to the Consummation of the World that is for ever Of which Vine all Christians that shall be saued must be vnited liuely branches and members THE ANSWERE to the Priests Motiues GOod Brother Whosoever he was that sent you these lines as motiues to make you a Romish Catholique I must needs thinke him your friend and by that name I meane to call him hereafter because I thinke hee did it out of a desire to saue your soule although I am sure he goes the wrong way to worke And if you should follow him which God forbid hee will certainly leade you into the ditch Though his proofes bee simple ones as I hope you will see by the answere yet it seemes hee thought better of them and they were the best he knew and therefore if hee faile in his purpose as I hope he shall yet you haue some cause to thanke him in that hee vsed the same arguments to perswade you wherewith hee himselfe was perswaded But for the validity of his reasons doe you judge your selfe when you haue heard vs both speake or if not let it bee tried by God and the country And who soever he was he hath placed a sentence in the foot of his discourse which for the importancie thereof deserved to bee set in a higher roome therefore I will begin with that first The true Catholique Church Jt is so necessary saith hee for every one to know and beleeue the holy Catholique Church militant that whosoever is not a sound member of that society either in act or desire cannot bee saved All this is true and there is great reason for it for if it were once agreed among Christians which were the true Church of Christ other differences in Religion would more easily be composed by the authority thereof But so long as the doubt remaines concerning the Church it selfe as in these daies that is the capitall controversie betweene Protestants Papists there is small hope of any good accord vnlesse both sides could agree vpon some third party to be vmpire Who must be such a one as is of sufficient vnderstanding to discerne where the truth resteth and withall of that indifferency in affection that he encline no way to one side more then to another For that either the Romish or reformed Church being themselues the parties litigant that they should require to be made Iudges in their own cause though some of our adver saries be not ashamed to make such a proposition yet I thinke there is no man that hath his fiue wits about him
but will detest the impudency thereof at the first hearing Of necessity therefore some third party must be thought vpon who being no way intressed in either faction is of sufficient Iudgement to determine which of the pretenders make the best claime now though wee should search the whole world over with a candle there is none such possibly to be found vnder heaven but only the holy Scripture which being confessed by both sides to be the rule of faith cannot well be denied to be the most competent Iudge for deciding of all doubts in that kinde arising among the faithfull Scripture a competent judge of the true Church And for this question of the Church St Aug. is peremptory that there is no other way to determine it but by Scripture alone Jnter nos Donatistas quaestio est vbi sit Ecclesia iust as it is now inter nos Papistas quîd ergo facturi sumus in verbis nostris eam quaesituri an in verbis capitis sui Puto quòd in illius potius verbis cam quaerere debemus lib. de vnit Eccles c. 2. That whole chapter together with the 3. and 4. following is altogether to the same purpose nay Bellar. himselfe denies not but in some cases the Scripture is better knowne to vs then the Church and ex hac hypothesi when the Church is doubted of he is content to grant that wee must seeke for it in the Scripture de Eccles l. 4. c. 2. And yet notwithstanding all this faire weather that he makes with Scripture there is neither hee nor any of the rest that are willing to accept it for Iudge in this controversie the most they will yeeld is to accept it for a rule of faith and yet they stand not to that neither when they require tradition to be joyned vnto it as if without the helpe thereof it could not measure perfectly For Regula regulatum debent esse adaequata The autority of the scripture If Scripture alone bee not sufficient of it selfe to measure the length of à Christians faith vnlesse tradition bee added to helpe then it is no rule at all much lesse a perfect rule but only a peece of one But howsoever they are content sometime for fashion sake to acknowledge Scripture for the rule of faith in part yet by no meanes will they allow it for a Iudge though that be the very name whereby S. Augustine and the Fathers of those times did vsually call it Ista controversia Iudicem requirit saith he lib. 2. de nup. concup c. 33. Iudicet ergo Christus Iudicet cum illo Apostolus quia in Apostolo ipse loquîtur Christus and againe de gratiâ lib. arbit c. 18. Sedeat inter nos iudex Apostolus Iohannes and Optatus contra Parmen l. 5. Quaerendi sunt iudices saith he Jn terris de hâc re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium You see by this that the Pope was not acknowledged in those daies for the judge of controversies if Optatus had beene a Papist he durst not haue spoken such a word but marke how hee goes on De coelo quaerendus est judex sed quid pulsamus ad coelum cùm habemus hic in Evangelio Testamentum the place is too long to bee all set downe and that which followeth is all to that purpose Our adversaries speake in another language now adaies then Optatus or Augustine or any of those holy Fathers were wont to speake When they said so often Judicet Christus Iudicet Scriptura they would haue said once at the least Iudicet Papa if they had imagined that any such power had belonged vnto him Here was a fit opportunity for them to haue declared themselues true Catholiques But alas good men how could they speake of that which they knew not or how could they teach that doctrine to others that they were never taught themselues For this vpstart judge it is a meere novelty of a later edition vtterly vnknowne to the Christian world in those daies like that gibbrish tongue which some mungrell Iews spake Neh emias complaines of c. 13.24 In scripturis didicimus Christum in scripturis didicimus Ecclesiam Aug. ep 166. de vnitat Eccles c. 16. Now when we say that the Scripture is judge wee doe not refuse to heare the voice of the Church speaking in the ordinary Ministery of her lawfull Pastors interpreting the Scriptures vnto vs. Wee know that there are many texts full of difficulty and aboue the reach of common vnderstanding nay there are many which his Holinesse himselfe I am sure vnderstands not for all his infallible chaire But we know withall that there are other places of Scripture so facil and plaine as a man of ordinary capacity may safely be his owne interpreter and there is nothing necessary to salvation either concerning faith or life but that in some one place or other it is deliuered in such plaine manner as every man may vnderstand it if Saint Augustine deceiue vs not de Doctr. Christ l. 2 c. 9. And many other of the ancient Fathers as well as hee And therefore if blinde men see not the sunne it is not the fault of the sun but theirs whose eyes the God of this world hath blinded A lawfull Councell the Church representatiue Now for those places of scripture which are of greatest difficulty if we seeke for a vocall judge to interpret them vnto vs it is certaine that there is none sufficient to informe vpon earth the conscience of a Christian but only a lawfull Councell which is fitly therefore called the Church representatiue The declaratiō of several Pastors though never so learned godly cā induce no more thē a probability but the vniforme consent of thē all joyned together in a lawfull Councell doth conclude a certainty of truth in that that is declared What conditions belong to a lawfull Councell I will not now stand to inquire Some such there haue beene heretofore though not so many as would be thought so and some there may be againe In the meane time A councell the highest iudgement vpon earth I desire you to thinke that Protestants ascribe farre greater authority by many degrees to the voice of the Church speaking in such assemblies then Papists doe for all their great talking and yet you must know that there are divers learned Papists of the same opinion with Protestants in this point namely that the iudgement of a lawfull Councell is to bee reputed the highest iudgement vpon earth whether the Pope giue his consent therevnto or no. The Iesuites labour hard on the contrary side to draw all to the Papall chayre affirming the sentence of a Councell to be of no validity vnlesse the Pope doe approoue it which in effect is nothing else but to abuse the name of Councels and of the Church making them meere stales to serue the Popes turne Differēces amongst the Papists see the differences that are among themselues about